Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Parents of Michigan School Shooter Face Victims' Families at Sentencing; Special Counsel Urges Supreme Court to Reject Trump Immunity Claims; Trump Says Abortion Rights Should be Left to the States. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired April 09, 2024 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:16]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. You are live in the CNN Newsroom. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington.

And we begin with breaking news out of Michigan. The parents of Oxford school shooter Ethan Crumbley are in court face-to-face with their son's victims ahead of their sentencing. James and Jennifer Crumbley were both found guilty of four counts of involuntary manslaughter after their teenage son brutally murdered four of his classmates back in 2021. They are the first parents to be held responsible for a school shooting committed by their child. You're looking at pictures coming from inside the courtroom, as we speak.

CNN's Jean Casarez joins us now. Jean, tell us what's happening in court right now and about this prospect that we're going to be seeing in just a few moments here of the parents of these victims coming face-to-face with Ethan Crumbley's parents. That is going to be an incredibly emotional moment.

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That will be the emotional moment because the parents of the four students that Ethan Crumbley gunned down in Oxford High School in November of 2021, that the parents were charged and convicted on themselves because of gross negligence.

They will come forward and describe how their life has changed. They may address James and Jennifer Crumbly on what they did as parents to help cause all of this. But there has been contention in that courtroom this morning because the defense attorneys are arguing in this precedent-setting sentencing because never before in this country have parents of a mass school shooter not only been charged and convicted of the homicides themselves, but now for sentencing because the prosecution is arguing aggravating factors.

There were four students that were killed. There was an intent to kill more students. There was the fact that there was an aspect of using that gun and intending to kill. But the defense is saying, no, that's not correct here. There was a continuum of gross negligence. That's what the jury convicted them on. We agree with that.

But once that gun got in the hands of Ethan Crumbley at that school and he pulled that trigger, those are independent acts. He decided to kill four. He decided that he wanted to kill as many as he could. He intended to do injury to others and that should not be put upon the parents and reflected in the sentencing. So, it's an argument and we'll see what the judge does with this.

ACOSTA: Yes. And, Jean, I mean, I just wonder if, in the control room, can tell me something different if we should listen in at some moment. If you think it's important to listen in at some moment, let us know. We do think that those victim impact statements are going to start within the next several minutes.

But, Jean, what about authorities asking that there be a no contact order between James and Jennifer and their son and that that remain in place? It's sort of remarkable. I guess what they're asking for here is that the members of this family that have been tried and convicted here can't talk to one another.

CASAREZ: This is fascinating, Jim, because this has become a constitutional issue this morning because you're watching them. They are seated together in that courtroom. This is the first time they've been in the courtroom together in months. They haven't seen each other.

There has been a non-contact order since 2021 when they were arrested. They can't write to each other. They can't write to their son. They cannot communicate in any way. And the pre-sentence investigation, the probation department recommended that that continue.

The defense is saying, wait a minute, this is a violation of your constitutional liberty to be a family. At least they should be able in prison to write to each other to see how each other is doing. And there has been zero contact. So the judge wants the prosecution to respond to this. It was a recommendation from the probation department, and then the judge will make that ruling.

But once they're in the hands of the Department of Corrections, Jim, they're the ones that call the shots. They're the ones that will determine.

And the judge did say that she learned from the prison that James Crumbley and Ethan, they are considered enemies at this point. And so that very likely there will be no contact and they'll be in separate penal institutions, but still that no contact could endure.

[10:05:02]

ACOSTA: All right, Jean, and so many communities across this country have been affected by these mass shootings and I imagine a lot of families who have impacted by this. Outside of Michigan are going to be paying attention to this because we're going see those victim impact statements shortly. We'll bring some of that to you when it happens.

In the meantime, Jean Casarez, thank you very much.

We're following several other developments in the legal cases swirling around Donald Trump and his efforts to delay them. Special Counsel Jack Smith is calling on the Supreme Court to reject Trump's sweeping claims of presidential immunity. As of now that case is due to be argued before the high court in two weeks.

And in New York, a state appeals court has shut down Trump latest efforts to delay his hush money trial. The court refused a change of venue, so jury selection remains on track for Monday. That would make Trump the first former president to face a criminal trial.

There's a lot to unpack. Let me go to CNN's Kara Scannell in New York for us. Kara, what about these efforts expected to delay Monday's start of jury selection? Might we see more of those? I imagine we'll see them throw everything but the kitchen sink at this between now and next Monday.

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I think that's a fair bet, Jim. I mean, there was a blitz of activity over the past week with Trump making several attempts, both at the trial court level and now at the appellate level to try to delay and derail this trial.

Yesterday's motion, they wanted to postpone the trial so they could argue that there should be a change of venue, saying that the New York market has been saturated. Prosecutors oppose that, saying, this is an international story, and the importance here is focusing on jury selection and making sure that they see an unbiased, fair and impartial jury.

The judge quickly agreed with that and that effort is now done. But Trump's team has several other efforts underway. They're trying to get the judge overseeing the trail to push off it because of the publicity argument. That seems like that's a real long shot now in light of yesterday's ruling. They're also trying to get the judge to recuse himself. And today we are expecting some oral arguments as they appeal the gag order that was put in this case to stop the former president from making comments about the judges' daughter, family members of prosecution team, any of witnesses in the case.

Trump's team is appealing that today. We're expecting arguments. The details of that still remain fluid at this time. But I think you're right, this is not expected to be the last effort by Trump's team as they try to stop this trial from happening now just six days away, Jim.

ACOSTA: And, Kara, when the selection process gets underway, what do we think the jurors are going to ask?

SCANNELL: So, the focus of jury selection in this questionnaire is to find people who might have opinions about the former president or about the prosecution or the case, but who can be fared impartial.

So, there are about 42 questions that the judge has outlined that he will ask the jurors. Some of them are as basic as, you know, how long have you lived in New York? Where do you live in the city? What do you do for a living? Where did you get your news? Others are more focused on Donald Trump and the specifics of this case to try to find anyone who might have a hidden bias, because that is the utmost importance of the judge. So, he's going to ask questions of have he ever worked for the Trump Organization, the Trump campaign or the administration? You know, have you attended any pro-Trump rallies or anti-Trump rallies? Are you members of any fringe groups, such as the Proud Boys or QAnon or Antifa, trying to find people on both possible sides here.

You know, one thing that the judge made clear is that he's not going to ask anyone about their party affiliation, who they donated to or who they voted for, because he said the politics are not on trial here, that it's whether or not you like Donald Trump or don't like Donald Trump. It's about whether you can be fair and impartial, and that is what the judge said. He will make very clear in controlling any follow-up questions that either side wants to ask. Jim?

ACOSTA: All right. Kara Scannell outside the courthouse in Manhattan for us, thank you.

Now to the backlash over for President Donald Trump's latest stance on abortion. His record on the issue has been somewhat of a moving target over the last 25 years. He has shifted his stance at least 13 times, saying he's, quote, pro-choice in 1999, pro-life in 2015, and in 2016, even urging, quote, some form of punishment for women who get abortions.

Now, Trump is getting some backlash from anti-abortion advocates for saying on Monday that the issue should be left up to the states. His former Vice President Mike Pence calls that a slap in the face. The president of a prominent anti-abortion group is slamming it as a total eclipse of reason. And Republican Senator Lindsey Graham says Trump's position is a, quote, mistake. That drew the ire of Trump who accused his ally of doing a, quote, disservice to the party and playing into Democrats' hands

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT, 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: These guys never learned they never learn that the Democrats want to make the election about abortion. It's a very controversial thing. But everybody wanted it back in the states.

We took a great victory and guys like Lindsey Graham, they make it controversial and it's not controversial. It goes back to the states where all legal scholars on both sides want it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[10:10:01]

ACOSTA: All right, let's discuss with Democratic Strategist Chuck Rocha and former Republican Congressman Joe Walsh. Guys, thank you very much for being with me this morning.

Chuck, let me go to you first. You're here in the studio with me. You know, Trump has changed his position on this a lot of times, as we just mentioned a few moments ago. That has President Biden telling supporters in Chicago last night this, quote, no one trusts Donald Trump on this issue.

I mean, how much of a winning issue is that going to be with suburban and independent voters, when we've seen time and again in states like Kansas, Ohio, voters are coming out in droves on this.

CHUCK ROCHA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: It's a really important issue. I think that's exactly why you're seeing this happen. This is why you see him all over the place. He's chasing this cat and he can't get it in the corner because he knows it's going to have a big impact in race after race that I'm working in, in the suburbs, in the suburbs of Philadelphia, Milwaukee.

And in these battleground states are where these suburban voters, mainly Democratic women who are married to Republican men are going to make the difference in this election. They care deeply about this a lot like a lot of Democrats and Republicans and independents in places like Kansas. You just saw it get on the ballot in Florida, of all places. This is going to be a major centerpiece of the election. That's why you see him doing exactly what he's doing now.

ACOSTA: Yes. I mean, it could put Florida in play. And, Joe, I mean, Trump has made a number of controversial statements about abortion. Obviously, for as dishonest as he is, he could be remarkably candid. Here's what he said a few years back on whether women should be punished for abortion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe in punishment for abortion, yes or no, as a principle?

TRUMP: The answer is that there has to be some form of punishment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For the woman?

TRUMP: Yes, there has to be some form.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) 10 years? Why?

TRUMP: That I don't know. That I don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then why not?

TRUMP: I don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You take positions and everything else.

TRUMP: I do take positions and everything else.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: I mean, it sounds familiar, Joe. I mean, he was tap dancing all around this up until yesterday, and then he said, leave it up to the states. A lot of Democrats are saying, you know, hey, if he gets back into the White House, you have a Republican Congress, they put up a national abortion ban, you could take Trump's statement yesterday and throw it out the window.

FMR. REP. JOE WALSH (R-IL): Yes. Jim, look, again, the headline here is what the headline has always been. Donald Trump has no core belief on abortion. Trump has no core belief on any issue. Trump's only core belief is Donald Trump, whatever will help Donald Trump, whatever will advance Donald Trump.

So, he doesn't give a damn about abortion. What will help get him elected? That's all he cares about. That's all he's ever cared about. That's all he cared about, Jim, during COVID. He didn't care that Americans were dying and getting sick. All he cared about was his re- election. It's the same factor here.

ACOSTA: And, Chuck, the Biden campaign released a pretty powerful ad on this yesterday. Let's take a look, talk about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the outfit that she was going to maybe wear home from the hospital.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The blanket that she was in.

Her little footprints.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: I mean, Chuck, that is an incredibly powerful spot.

And it kind of goes back to what Trump said to Chris Matthews about there being punishment for the woman. I mean, the reason why so many families are going through so much heartache right now over this issue, and some people have to travel to other states, and there are doctors that don't want to do reproductive care anymore in certain states, because of the prospect of being legally punished, punished in court, arrested, thrown in jail for providing reproductive care in some of these states.

ROCHA: This is something in politics that's very black and white. It's something that's literally taken away from a woman about their own body, their own safety, their own health. You saw that very emotional ad. Half of the electorate will be women. And this is a very basic right that they should have about determining what happens with their own body.

So, when you talk to lots of mothers, lots of grandmothers, and young daughters out there that are having this conversation that women have amongst themselves is the most powerful political and policy thing that you could be having within a community.

That's why you see Biden trying to touch the emotion of it because it's real. It's not just an issue, it's people's lives. It's their health care. It's little babies. I mean, I think that's the reason you see this.

ACOSTA: Yes. And, Joe, I did want to talk about this as well because, I mean, Trump is doubling down on these comments that he made about Jewish-Americans who vote for Democrats. I think we talked about this other day, you know, he's doing it again. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Any Jewish person that votes for Biden does not love Israel and, frankly, it should be spoken to.

A lot of its habit. Jewish people by habit, they vote for the Democrat and black people by habit vote for the Democrats.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[10:15:05]

ACOSTA: I know, Joe, we've talked about this so many times. But if literally any other politician in the history of America had just said that one thing right there, they'd be gone. If he just said that one -- never mind that Trump over the weekend said Joe Biden did cocaine before the State of the Union, and over the weekend, he said, if only we could have people coming in from Denmark, just individually, each one of those things, if they had been said by any other politician in the history of the United States, they'd be gone. And Trump says that one thing, he's doubling down, and nothing will happen, no consequences.

WALSH: Jim, you're so right. Anybody else, any other, I say this as a former candidate, you would be done. The media -- not you. The media has done such a disservice in brushing by the hundreds of horrible things he says every day.

Jim, this is his secret sauce. He throws so much, pardon me, shit against the wall every day and we normalize it. You nailed it. I mean, yes, over the weekend, he said the president of the United States was high on cocaine during the State of the Union. Nobody talked about that. We can't do this.

ACOSTA: It was eclipsed. Yes.

WALSH: It was eclipsed.

ACOSTA: Yes. And, Chuck, I mean, this leads me to the next thing, which is -- and I did want to get this in. We're kind of bouncing around a lot, but RFK Jr.'s, New York State director, had this to say about her top priority in November. Close on this and talk about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RITA PALMER, NEW YORK STATE DIRECTOR, RFK JR. CAMPAIGN: The only way for him, for Bobby to shake it up and to get rid of Biden, is if he's on the ballot in every state, including New York.

Whether you support Bobby or Trump, we all oppose Biden. And my thoughts are that, you know, that's the number one priority in the country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And the Kennedy campaign is downplaying this. They're saying she's not involved in electoral strategy nationally or in New York. She was speaking as a private citizen, and her statements in no way reflect the strategy of the Kennedy campaign.

I was recently at the Kennedy Library in Massachusetts. It's just a remarkable place, and it's just -- it's -- anyway, I don't want to go down that road too much. But it's unbelievable how it does seem as though Kennedy's sole reason to be in this race, at least from the point of view of some of the people around Bobby Kennedy is to make sure Biden doesn't win, to figure out a way to shave off a few votes in certain states here and there to make sure Biden doesn't win. I mean, it just seems transparent. It's becoming more transparent every day.

ROCHA: They're saying the quiet part out loud. And she said it out loud and it scared them all to death, but that's exactly what's happening here. With all due respect to the Kennedy family and the legacy of his fathers and his uncles and all the people --

ACOSTA: Amazing legacy.

ROCHA: Oh my God, right. And, you know, I live in the shadows, RFK Stadium, in the backside of them. He's everywhere around D.C. and in our politics. But saying the quiet part out loud is the big deal here. And with us needing every vote in every state could have a big impact. And it's a shame that we have people from our own party that have this long legacy trying to stand in the way of somebody good getting elected president.

ACOSTA: Well, you know, Joe, and I got to go, but you talk to a lot of young voters and they want to know more about RFK Jr. They think it's interesting.

WALSH: Yes.

ACOSTA: And -- but this is not like -- one of the Kennedy's is running for president. That's not what this is.

WALSH: That's not at all what this is. He's in to help Trump and Democrats and young people need to wake up. If you don't want Trump in the White House, your only vote is Biden. Ignore Kennedy.

ACOSTA: All right. Chuck and Joe, thanks a lot.

Still to come, Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene sharpening her attacks on the House Speaker Mike Johnson. The scathing new letter pushing her GOP colleagues to act, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:20:00]

ACOSTA: This morning, Congress is back in session. And in the House, both Ukraine aid and Speaker Mike Johnson's job could be in jeopardy as Johnson continues to work behind the scenes to thread the needle and find a Ukraine aid package that can pass. He's facing threats from within his own party, including continued attacks from Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): How dare he go on T.V. and say it's his top priority to fund Ukraine for $60 billion?

I will not tolerate a speaker of the House that I voted for to sell us out. I will not tolerate it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And this morning, Greene is doubling down, sending a scathing indictment of Johnson to her Republican colleagues, accusing the speaker of jeopardizing their razor-thin majority in the House.

Let's discuss that, and we're now with Democratic Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi of Illinois. He's a member of the House Intelligence and Oversight Committees. I guess this is a little bit outside of your domain, Congressman, because you are a Democrat. But thank you very much for being here.

Just the other day, Congresswoman Greene was saying that earthquakes and eclipses were strong signs from God telling us to repent. Why is anybody listening to what she has to say?

REP. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI (D-IL): I don't know, and I think that somebody had mentioned that she's oftentimes parroting Russian talking points on the floor of the House. I mean, this is crazy. Any time that she talks is a moment when I think more Democrats tend to do the opposite of what she wants and actually moderate and other centrist Republicans do the same.

[10:25:03]

ACOSTA: But it does raise a larger issue as to what is going to happen to Speaker Johnson. Do you think his job is safe at this point? Would you back an effort to rescue him if Marjorie Taylor Greene brings a motion to vacate to the House floor?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: If Speaker Johnson brings Ukraine aid to the floor and other aid packages to the floor and does the right thing, and then Marjorie Taylor Greene seeks to remove him, or moves to remove him, I think that Democrats would join in a motion to kill such a maneuver because he should not be punished for doing the right thing.

ACOSTA: And how likely is that to occur? Do you think that could actually happen, we might see that happen?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: It could. Although, very interestingly among my Republican colleagues, especially moderates and others, they feel that there isn't a lot of support for her motion, and therefore she may not make it. But all that being said, we should be prepared for anything. And we've seen this movie before, and so we'll be, I think, not surprised if it happens. But I'm hoping that if he does the right thing, he won't be punished for doing that.

ACOSTA: And, Congressman, just this morning, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that, quote, no force in the world will stop Israeli troops from entering Rafah. How do you respond to that?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: Well, I'm hearing different signals, different messages from Israel at this point. On the one hand, they moved a lot of their troops out of Southern Gaza. And I also heard that at the negotiating table, there're some hopeful signs. I think Mr. Gallant, their defense minister, signaled that they might be close to getting to a deal for an immediate ceasefire, immediate halt to hostilities in return for hostages and more humanitarian aid.

And if we can get to that, that will be exactly what we need right now because the conditions in Gaza are deplorable. I'm also hoping that the Qataris and others put tremendous pressure on Hamas to also ceasefire and make sure that the hostages get released.

ACOSTA: I mean, just last week, the president was warning Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that if he doesn't change course in Gaza, that there might be some consequences when it comes to US aid. But when the Prime Minister comes out and says that no force in the world will stop troops from invading Rafah, does it sound like he got the message from the White House?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: I'm not sure. It's very hard for me to understand Mr. Netanyahu. But what I do understand is that the President made it very clear to Mr. Netanyahu and others that, first, humanitarian aid must be allowed to flow in much greater quantities into Gaza, and, secondly, they have to minimize harm to innocent civilians. And so some of the moves that have occurred over the last 48 hours have been in the right direction.

ACOSTA: And finally, on Ukraine, the Treasury Secretary, Janet Yellen, is wrapping up a visit to China. She's warned China of significant consequences for Chinese companies that are supporting Russia's war in Ukraine. China is apparently defying that criticism. What's your sense of it right now? What should the U.S. do about this? What should the administration be saying right now?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: I think she's saying exactly the right thing. And I'm glad that she's having this high-level dialogue with the CCP. I understand that she's also gone viral for some of her culinary or Chinese cuisine moments.

But on a more serious note, I think that she should continue to make it very clear to our CCP interlocutors or the people that she's meeting that Chinese companies that provide assistance to the Russian war machine would likely be sanctioned in the United States.

And that might even include technologies that up to this point we have not talked about, such as dual-use technology. The majority of the semiconductors that the Russian military uses in its missiles and other technologies are now coming from China, and that's of grave concern.

ACOSTA: All right. Congressman Krishnamoorthi, thank you very much for your time this morning, we really appreciate it.

KRISHNAMOORTHI: Thank you.

ACOSTA: All right. Coming up, the real impact that the stalled Ukraine aid bill is having on the fight against Russia, my next guest, retired Colonel Alexander Vindman, joins us live from Kyiv. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:30:00]