Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Now: Impact Statements In Crumbley Parents' Sentencing. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired April 09, 2024 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CRAIG SHILLING, FATHER OF SHOOTING VICTIM JUSTIN SHILLING: Now, we still want that responsibility, even though it's not very clear what it all entails. But how can we accept that responsibility, and not act responsibly towards that time? It doesn't add up.

A child, even if he is in the losing child, deserves the same amount of love, compassion, and compare that any other child gets. A child deserves someone who is confident enough to lead by example. Because let's face it, it wasn't that child's choice to come into this world.

You made them. And it's your responsibility to teach them how to live. It's your responsibility to give this -- to set a good example. This is plain and simple, just like that is in German. And the sooner we can figure out -- figure that out, the better we all will be.

Being a parent is hard work. But if it's done correctly, it can be the most rewarding work you've ever do. There is no one that can tell you how to do it because each child is so precious and unique. I mean, there's no other one like them in the entire world. And that says a lot.

So, cherish your ones always and never give them up. Never give up on that child. The results of doing so can be catastrophic and can affect the lives of so many other people.

Well, I asked you all to go home today and hug your kids and make sure they know you are there for them. And make sure that they are all right. It's so crucial for the whole of our society. Thank you.

CHERYL MATTHEWS. JUDGE: Thank you, Mr. Shilling. Reina, right?

REINA ST. JULIANA, SISTER OF SHOOTING VICTIM HANA ST. JULIANA: Yes.

MATTHEWS: Reina St. Juliana.

ST. JULIANA: Our 10-year-old little brother had to learn how to write a eulogy for a sister before he even learned how to write essays. November 30, 2021, all our parents did was send us off to school. Yet the next time they see Hana is to recognize her lifeless body in the medical examiner's office. I met up with Hana and a friend during school that day. When we split ways to go back to class, I just look back and smile. I didn't say goodbye.

I never got to say goodbye. I never got to remind her that I love her, that she's my everything. The person I want to walk through life with side by side.

I thought her feature was given. Of course, she played her first high school basketball game that night. Get ready for all the other school dances, have her JV and varsity season for all the sports she played, get her driver's license, player of Lacrosse season, have her first date, prom, graduation. She never got a chance for any of that.

She didn't even get her 15, 16, 17 or 18th birthday. These are only some of the high school experiences she never got to have. But it is absolutely nothing compared to the rest of everything she had going for her future.

That list is eternal. Hana's life only started to begin. 12:51 p.m., November 30, 2021, that was a moment I became aware of the fragility of our mortality. Hana who was healthy -- Hana who was only 14 shot four times. 12.5 percent of the bullets shot that day were at her. She took her last breath and her own full of blood in a school she hadn't even been in for three months.

Alone for seven months -- seven minutes while police passed by her, bleeding out as a security guard failed to put a tourniquet on her, dying as EMS took more than 10 minutes after the shooter had been detained to even give aid to her. Our Japanese grandma would often worry about anything bad happening to us because she knew how dangerous it was here compared to Japan. She told me one FaceTime that Hana responded to laugh saying don't worry, I'm a fast runner. I'll outrun them.

It wasn't possible for Hana to outrun the bullets bought by you, Jennifer Crumbley, which were fired by the nine-millimeter SIG Sauer that you, James, gifted to your son. Both used to murder Hana, Justin, Tate, and Madisyn. The fact is, no matter what you try to make yourself believe, Jennifer, you did fail as a parent, both of you.

To love and to be loved, that is the human experience. It was up to you guys to show your son that. Instead of getting quality time and compassion, you give your son a gun. A gun you know causes extraordinary damage.

There's a reason your kid didn't use the other two firearms or the .22 ammunition you own. I believe your actions cannot even be confined into the word failure. Your mistakes created our everlasting nightmare. So yes, you are still a danger to society because even after serving two years, you have yet to admit to your wrongdoings. And we know that when we've not learned from our mistakes, we repeat history.

[11:35:08] You call yourself a victim. The difference between you and Hana, Justin, Tate, and Madisyn, you and my family, you and all the students there that day, is that we didn't have a hand in causing this. You caused the most cruel thing I could ever imagine.

You guys made loving Hana so painful. That is not a narrative. That is reality. For that, unless you have a time machine or the ability to stop time, there is no existing punishment or rehabilitation that will ever be enough because there is no way that the one life I have, I now have to live without Hana, my little sister, my best friend, my other half. To me, that makes a maximum sentence being 15 years too short. Hana didn't even have 15 years to live.

Jennifer, you say that even after knowing everything you know now, you wouldn't do anything different. I cannot fathom that. I would do anything to hear her footsteps coming up the stairs. You don't have to roll your eyes. It's on video that she said that.

It's not having an empty seat at the dining table to have her come into my room and ask which clothes to order, to see her napping on the couch, to laugh and share a look when we accidentally say the same thing at the same time. There's not a day that goes by that I wish I hadn't run out of that building. If I knew what I know now, I would do everything differently in a heartbeat.

I hope time makes you think differently. One day, I hope you would have chosen to care for your son, teach him how to love and to be loved that you would not choose to buy the bullets that entered children's bodies. But you would not choose to omit relevant important information to the Counselor Shawn Hopkins and Dean of Students Nicholas Ejak that could help their unconfident brains and one shared brain cells to decide to act and search the backpack. That you wouldn't still choose to hide from accountability when you're the reason we had to hide for our lives. That you would choose to save Hana, Justin, Tate, and Madisyn.

Like my mother said, both of you should implore that even on your worst days, it's the tomorrow Hana doesn't get but the tomorrow she wanted to live so badly that tomorrow that she should have. I can never do Hana justice when talking about her. She's all I want to talk about and yes, I will need a lifetime and still wouldn't have the right words to capture incandescence, humor, thoughtfulness, kindness, or loyalty.

She's always there for you. Helping without a second thought. She's always sharing whether it's her smile, her food, her clothes, her crafts, her joy. She's funny. It's a given she brings people together.

Whether it's her contagious laughter or sarcastic wit, you will be laughing right along with her. She's noticing the small things, new shoes, new haircut, cute jewelry. But even more importantly, she makes you feel seen.

She's extremely spirited. Her energy is unmatched on or off the court. She dresses up every holiday, every spirit day, the first one to put up Christmas lights, or our lights for that matter. Not even realizing she was a light for so many others.

She's the one who would not only playfully roll her eyes and smile when I would say I'm taller than her as I look up to her. Not only did I look up to her physically because yes, she was taller, but as a whole, as a human being. She isn't perfect, but she's Hana. And to me, that's as close as you can get.

I can't convey what losing has done to me. I've missed her with every breath I take. I think going forward without her is something I'll never be able to fully navigate. I believe the word sad is inappropriate to use because it does nothing to capture the hurt or the way my soul shattered.

I didn't know. I've never felt every atom of my body igniting from anger until Hana's murder. I didn't know what it was like to want to stop waking up in the morning until she wasn't here. I've never known pain that is forever until seeing Hana in a casket. I didn't know it was possible to feel so isolated even when you're surrounded by people.

I don't know how it feels not knowing yourself at all. I have no idea who I am without Hana. She's my happy. She's my home.

I look for Hana and everyone I meet every place I go, and it's exhausting when I'm met with disappointment every time. But it's the world. It's all the people she would have met. I agree with them too.

To have that chance of Hana being in your life taken away from you is a tragedy in and of itself. She's more -- she's more of a person than us to combine times a trillion could ever even hope to be. But when the day comes that you reenter society in 13 years, I hope you live more like Hana.

I hope you live every moment to the fullest like Hana. I hope you live every day like Hana, and I hope you love unconditionally like Hana. That's it.

MATTHEWS: Thank you, Reina. Mr. St. Juliana.

[11:40:10]

STEVE ST. JULIANA, FATHER OF SHOOTING VICTIM HANA ST. JULIANA: Thank you. I find myself in a rather odd state of mind today, rather emotionally blank right now. Part of that is having to do this again. Part of that is I'm mostly a private person.

And the idea of having to pour my heart out, again is irritating. And I can't match the eloquent words that have come before me in the previous impact statements. So, I'll limit my words today.

The defendants, through their choices, through their indifference in gross negligence, enabled the son -- their son to murder my daughter, Hana, and three other children. They chose to stay quiet. They chose to ignore the warning signs. And now as we've heard, through all of the objections, they continue to choose to blame everyone but themselves. Every single objection I think that the counsel said this morning, put the blame somewhere else their son, not them.

I stood before the court several months ago and spoke about the impact that Hana's murder had on myself and my family. Nothing has changed since then. It's impossible for me to truly convey the complete impact of my daughter's loss.

Hana's murder has destroyed a large portion of my very soul. I've said these words before. It's still the truth. I remain a shell of the person that I used to be. I think of her and miss her constantly.

Every day is a battle to attempt to move forward. Struggled to get out of bed to go through the motions of everyday life. Simple everyday sights and actions bring pain as I think what it should have been like with Hana there with us.

I think of all the good times that we've shared together as a family and more than all the memories that will never be. I will never think back fondly on her high school and college graduations. I will never walk her down the aisle as she begins the journey of starting her own family. I am forever denied the chance to hold her or her future children in my arms.

A few words describing Hana can in no way fully capture her truly beautiful, caring soul or in part -- in part, her unlimited potential. Hana was an absolutely beautiful and thoughtful person. She was always the first person to notice when someone had a problem and the first to go out of her way to offer help.

She was incredibly curious and talented. She continually tried new things. She crafted homemade jewelry, tried cooking her own recipes, and played several sports.

She was a record holder in track and a leader of her school's volleyball and basketball teams. She also hoped to join her older sister on the Lacrosse team in the spring. She had aspirations of a career dedicated to helping people.

All of us have lost because of the defendants' actions and choices. My position regarding the defendants' sentencing and their future has evolved through their trials. At first, I was focused on the importance of getting a guilty verdict, to have the message conveyed to the public that this type of behavior and choices are not acceptable. I didn't have strong feelings about their sentencing. It was just something that would be determined by the system.

[11:45:06]

My view, however, has changed as the defendants' level of defiance has grown. Instead of acknowledging any mistakes, they continue to show no remorse. They take no accountability. They and their lawyers continue to try to change the narrative and portray the defendants as victims of the prosecution team. They blame everyone but themselves and make threats of retribution.

The facts have already been presented. The jury has found them guilty -- multiple juries have found them guilty. Hana, Madisyn, Kate, and Justin are the ones who have lost everything, not the defendants. As such, I asked this court to sentence the defendants to the maximum allowable penalty of 10 to 15 years in prison. Thank you.

MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. St. Juliana. Thank you for being here.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, those were really, really emotional and very powerful statements -- impact statements from two mothers, two fathers, and one sister of these teenagers who were shot and killed back on November 30, 2021, by Ethan Crumbley, who was 15 years old at the time, in Oakland County, Michigan. Jean Casarez is with us who's been covering this from the very beginning.

I got to tell you how emotional and sad and heartbreaking it is to hear these family members speak about their loved ones the way they have, asking that these parents, James and Jennifer Crumbley be given the maximum sentence, which is what up to 15 years in prison.

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That is correct. And the judge has to take into consideration these words from these victim impact statements. They are pivotal moments in this court, and the judge will look at it for consideration.

The way Madisyn Baldwin, the very first victim impact statement her mother gave it was a timeline. And it was a timeline of that morning and went --what she was doing and what Jennifer and James Crumbley were doing at the same time. And I think it set the stage for the emotion, the presence, and those that follow.

Craig Shillings, the father, really gave a moment for parents of uplifting to cherish your child, to nurture your child. And they all are speaking directly to James and Jennifer Crumbley, if you notice in these victim impact statements talking about how it was so obvious, they didn't even want their child. And so, of course, the defense will counter that but that is the feeling I think of most in that courtroom today.

BLITZER: They -- and they face up to 15 years in prison for involuntary manslaughter.

CASAREZ: Yes.

BLITZER: Both convicted in separate trials but they're being sentenced together. Their attorneys are asking for their clients to be sentenced to less than five years in prison each. Jennifer Crumbley has also asked the judge to allow her to be placed under house arrest where she can be supervised. But these statements from these family members are so powerful.

CASAREZ: Yes.

BLITZER: And they clearly make it clear that these parents were derelict in their responsibilities to protect others by allowing their son to have access to a gun. And eventually, despite all of his problems, go into that school and murdered his four fellow students. And he also shot six others, including a teacher in the process. So, it's really -- it's really an awful situation. And I take it, Jean, this will be the first time -- this is the first time that parents of a shooter, of a child who committed a crime like this are being charged and have been convicted in this -- in this involuntary manslaughter charge.

CASAREZ: And so, this is a sentencing of a precedent setting nature. Never before has there been a sentencing like this. And so, the judge must consider all of the facts and circumstances because they did not pull the trigger. And the defense has argued from the beginning that Ethan came in and was that intervening act to that gun and --

BLITZER: All right. Hold on -- hold on for one moment -- hold on for one more. Jennifer Crumbley is now speaking. The mother of the shooter Ethan Crumbley. Let's listen in.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JENNIFER CRUMBLEY, MOTHER OF OXFORD HIGH SCHOOL SHOOTER: Just since I know there was nothing I can say that's going to ease the pain and suffering of the victims and their families. There's a quote I heard that rang true. Grief. For those of you who understand, no explanation is needed. And for those of us who do not, no description is possible.

I have to tell you how it was my lament over the English and shame I carry. No, my son did. The harm he caused innocent lives, the families, and to the entire Oxford community. I pray also the victims are -- (INAUDIBLE) of God's mercy and peace and that he heals your broken spirits.

[11:50:05]

When I was on the stand, I was asked if I would have done anything differently. I was horrified to learn my answer, I would not have, was completely misunderstood. That answer is true because my guts -- my son did seem so normal. I didn't have a reason to do anything different.

This was not something I foresaw. That was the intention of the answer and how I interpreted the question. With the benefit of hindsight and the information I have now, my answer would be drastically different.

If I even thought my son was capable of crimes like these, things with absolutely have been different. Even worse, when I learned during the police investigation that he had been planning a school shooting before November. He was not the son I woke up -- that he was not the son I knew when I woke up on November 30.

The Ethan I knew was a good quiet kid. And he loved his pets, family vacations. My husband and I used to say we have the perfect kid. I truly believe that. And that's where I saw him follow him.

As the details are emerging during discovery, I was horrified to learn concerning behaviors by someone who was recorded doing at school. Refused to take a makeup test. He told us he took it. Sleeping in class, drawing pictures of guns on his assignments. Writing "my family is a mistake." Watching a video in class of a mass shooting that fateful day along with internal communications that took place between his teachers and counselor, Mr. Hopkins, that he was "on my radar" and "he seems to be having a rough time." That was never disclosed to us, his parents.

The school playing this was not a normal behavior because of the pandemic, and actor bring in a "gun community." To say I was furious to learn this information is an understatement. This is not normal behavior to us, and very different from what Ethan was -- believed was happening at school.

Not only were you left in the dark about race concerning behavior, but in the counselor's office that morning, none of those previous issues were brought to our attention. I can't stop thinking how they have been. The conversation that morning would have been much different. That we would have taken a deep dive in what's really been going on with my son.

I wonder if Hopkins and Ejak have the same regrets too. Instead, we were led to believe not only from Hopkins and Ejak but from Ethan as well that this was an isolated event. We got confident and trusting the professionals' advice to let him stay in school that day. "He did not -- he does not pose a threat to himself or others."

It was suggested that him being around here would probably be good. We agree. We were never asked to take them home that day. That was the stuff that's the best course of action, we would have obliged.

The -- (INAUDIBLE)keep saying we didn't give them the big picture that morning in the counselor's office. So, what they failed to acknowledge was a bigger picture the school did not give us. I'm not the same person I was prior to November 30, 2021. This tragedy has changed who I am and has taught me some very valuable lessons that sadly, suffering begin with them, I've also been done.

In the quiet hours of myself, I prayed to him about the deep impact these tragedies have on the families and the endless pain no one should ever have to feel. For his guard to hold a true understanding of her pain. I've also learned to depend on him for peace and strength. Alone, I'm not strong enough.

I learned that we cannot tell or predict what happened to us unless like, one day you wake up and everything can change. When you can, however, decide what happens in us, how we take it, and what we do with it. And that's what really mattered to me. And that's the test of living is how we pick the unimaginable.

The tragedies, the real hardships, and make them a thing and work of you. I've also learned to think -- to never think this cannot happen to you, a stereotype that bad kids come from bad parents. The prosecution is trying to mold us into the type of parents society wants to believe are so horrible. Only a school or mass shooter could be bred from. This is a very -- (INAUDIBLE) assumption to have, we were bad parents. We were the average family. We weren't perfect. But we loved our son and each other tremendously. Everything we strive for is to make sure our son has the best life we could get him, to grow up with traditional experiences we had, to be the best person he could be.

[11:55:09]

I know we did our best. The love I have for our son makes us regret for not seeing what was ahead weighs heavily on me. My point is, just to being a -- (INAUDIBLE) parents, here my -- took care my shoes, even to be your child, to be your grandchild, your niece or nephew, your brother, your sister.

Your child has made a fatal decision not just with a gun, but a knife, a vehicle, intentionally or unintentionally. If there's anything the general public can take away from this is that this could happen to you too.

The tragedy has taught me the true meaning of unconditional love as I watched my parents still love and care for me wholeheartedly, no matter what is happening. And there's nothing else I can do to recognize. I used to love myself unconditionally and perhaps that was my purpose.

Your Honor, I don't envy the decision you have to make today. I understand this isn't our case. And punishment limitations are high not just for the prosecution from all those affected as well. The heartbreaking journey these families have endured -- hang on, I've backed up and that's -- and that's the most important thing.

And the most valid case from us -- (INAUDIBLE) gain is the power of forgiveness. To forgive the prosecution for the slander and hate against me and my husband. (INAUDIBLE) I have hated you at deep anger, but they were just too heavy across the ferry. And to be separated from that burden and recognize that your people just like me, imperfect. (INAUDIBLE) I know he wants the things to happen to you and if any conflict whatever circumstances he is there looking at both sides.

To the victims and the families, I stand today not to ask for your forgiveness as I know it may be beyond reach, but to express my sincerest apologies for the pain that has been caused. Your Honor, what immediate decision you have to make today, I understand the punch of expectations are high from all sides. This heartbreaking jury of families have endured is more than anyone should have to bear. I mean, that wasn't it's hold-up.

My time to find it has been filled with deep remorse, regret, and grief over this tragedy. I've taken this one day at a time trying to survive, navigate, and cope with the endless heartache pain, and grief I feel for the families of Hana, Justin, Madisyn, and Tate. I have also asked myself over my son's wrongdoing. I'm not sure I did by the public opinion being shamed as a horrible parent, painfully a terrible person with the worst, how it carries my own self-judgment, remorse, and deep regret. I've been criticized I don't show emotion. I'm unsympathetic. I got pride. But along I agree. And if you ever look into me in front of me, you find like that the inside. I will be in my own internal person for the rest of my life. Your Honor, I have to take consideration that I have been locked in a cell 23 hours a day, essentially in solitary confinement for over 28 months, and that the court finds a fair and just somethings for me. Thank you.

MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mrs. Crumbley.

SHANNON SMITH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR JENNIFER CRUMBLEY: Yes, Your Honor. Thank you. Your Honor, they pointed out you know, this isn't always the case. When we walked in -- when we walked in the door, there's -- there are no winners here. Every single person was in grief.

MATTHEWS: Agreed.

SMITH: And there's also no limit on the amount of sadness, grief, and horrific emotions that are felt across the board in this case. And what Mrs. Crumbley does as far as remorse -- I'm sorry when she expressed the sadness, proves a tendency and there has been a tendency for people to say she's shifting from sadness to the victims and putting it on herself. She's -- (INAUDIBLE) there's an abundance of sadness -- there's enough sadness to go around for all of the victims, for Mrs. Crumbley, for everyone involved in this case.

It's not surprising that the victims have come in and obviously want the maximum sentence. There has been a narrative throughout this case that they believe is true. And this court knows that there is other information that was not a part of this case. And I believe this court knows the defense was hugely hamstrung, and I think the court was -- (INAUDIBLE) at times over what to do.

MATTHEWS: I guess I'm not sure what to do.