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CNN International: Israel Accuses Turkey Of Violating Trade Agreement; Netanyahu: Date Set For Rafah Ground Operation; Arizona Supreme Court Upholds A Century-Old Law Banning Nearly All Abortions; Champions League Ties Go Ahead Amid Terror Threats. Aired 3-3:45p ET

Aired April 09, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:07]

KATIE POLGLASE, CNN INVESTIGATIVE PRODUCER (voice-over): As day broke, the number of dead and injured that emerged are staggering. Interviews with survivors at hospitals afterwards found some people had been shot in the upper body.

REPORTER (translated): Where were you injured?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (translated): In my chest, and it went out through my back.

POLGLASE: Amidst the devastation, CNN found a clue as to who had delivered this aid, this box with the writing on a welfare trust.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was the first time that the aid had reached northern Gaza and we were very, very excited and happy that finally we have gone through.

POLGLASE: They received the terrible news as to what had happened via WhatsApp.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We walk up to some photos with cardboard boxes of our logo mobile (ph) with bloodstains on them. And it came as a shock. This is the first time in 20 years where I've actually seen blood being mixed with aid.

POLGASE: In all, at least 118 died that day, with the U.N. struggling to access northern Gaza, the IDF are responsible for ensuring aid arrives safely. Despite this, the U.N. has documented two dozen attacks on Palestinians awaiting aid in the last three months alone.

For those like Jahad (ph), living on the verge of famine, it has led to a desperate fight for survival.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (translated): The living take precedence over the dead. I must get food for myself and my children.

POLGLASE: And now about fight becomes more challenging than ever.

Katie Polglase, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE) ISA SOARES, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Our thanks to Katie for that report.

We're going to take a short break, be back in the next few minutes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:07:54]

SOARES: Hello, and a very warm welcome, everyone. I'm Isa Soares coming to you from London, what it is 8:00 p.m.

Gaza is not Gaza anymore -- the words of one woman who returned home with neighbors to the ruins of Khan Younis to discover really apocalyptic scenes. We are now seeing really the extent of the destruction of to months, of course, of fierce fighting as residents, trickle back into the city, entire blocks there, as you can see, a wasteland. Israeli forces withdrew on Sunday from what they called a Hamas stronghold.

We are seeing similar scenes around al Shifa hospital in Gaza City. Gaza civil defense says nearly 400 bodies have been recovered so far. That's after a two-week siege.

Experts from the World Health Organization are on-site trying to help identify the decomposing remains.

The IDF says its troops are now regrouping for other missions, including in Rafah, where more than a million Palestinian civilians are sheltering. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says a date has been set to enter Rafah, but he won't disclose it, insisting, quote, no force in the world will stop his troops from finishing the job against Hamas.

The U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken says Israel isn't sharing any of the specifics. Have a listen to what he said earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: No, we do not have a date for any Rafah operation, at least one that's been communicated to us by the Israelis. On the contrary, what we have is an ongoing conversation with Israel about any Rafah operation.

The president has been very clear about our concerns, our deep concerns about Israel's ability to move civilians out of harms, out of harms way to care for them, once they're out of harms way. And to have any kind of major military operation that doesn't do real harm to civilians, to children, to women, to men.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOARES: And the last few minutes, sources telling CNN that in a call with Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin that happen on Monday, Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant told Austin that Israel is still putting together a plan for potential invasion Rafah, and making necessary preparations.

[15:10:05]

I'm telling you what the sources have told CNN, including when it comes to the protection of civilians. But it did not indicate that a date has been set for the operation that is multiple people familiar with a call, speaking to CNN. We'll stay on top of this development.

Diplomatic tensions meantime are spiking between Israel and Turkey after Ankara says Israel denied its request to airdrop aid into Gaza. Now Turkey is restricting exports such as steel, cement, and electrical cables. And Israel is accusing Turkey of violating a trade agreement.

Our Scott McLean has a story from Istanbul.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Since the war in Gaza began, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has been one of the loudest voices against Israel, calling it a terrorist state, accusing it of genocide, and even making this comparison.

Is there anything Netanyahu does that is less than Hitler? No, he said in December.

But despite the bark, there's been no bite until now.

There can be no excuse to Israel preventing our attempt to send aid from the air to or Gazan brothers who are fighting hunger said Hakan Fidan. In response to this situation, we have decided to take series of new measures against Israel.

After Turkey accused Israel of rejecting a Turkish request to airdrop aid to Gaza, Turkey's foreign minister promised consequences. Ankara has now banned the export of some metals, cement, industrial machinery more than 50 products the Israel, until it agrees to a ceasefire in Gaza and allows for the uninterrupted flow of humanitarian aid.

Israeli foreign minister promised to retaliate with its own export bans aimed at Turkey's inflation battered economy and said, Erdogan is once again sacrificing the economic interests of the people of Turkey for his support of the Hamas murderers in Gaza.

Well, Turkish is really political relations have been hot and cold through the years lately economic ties have only been warming with annual trade volume now, into the billions and while there were some smaller organized boycotts of Israel and Turkey at the outset of the war, Erdogan government has long resisted calls to cut trade with Israel.

TURKEY PRESIDENT ERDOGAN'S CHIEF ADVISER: Well, there's no talk about sanctions at this point.

MCLEAN: This was Erdogan's chief adviser in December.

TURKEY PRESIDENT ERDOGAN'S CHIEF ADVISER: But of course, the relationship is strained.

MCLEAN: President Erdogan has called Israel a terrorist state. And I wonder why Turkey thinks its okay to do business with a terrorist state?

TURKEY PRESIDENT ERDOGAN'S CHIEF ADVISER: Well, I mean, you saying business but the fact is that there are certain companies that are based in Turkey are certain companies that are based in Israel. This is not a state to state issue.

MCLEAN: This week, police detained dozens of protesters on Istanbul's famous Istiklal Street, who were calling for Turkey to cut off trade with Israel. And in local elections, less than two weeks ago, Erdogan was dealt a stinging defeat, a smaller parties promising to take stronger action against Israel siphoned off votes from his ruling AK Party.

You think that President Erdogan has heard the message from voters loud and clear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh yeah, this is a very clear message. Wherever you look, you see pro-government groups talking about how government failed to respond to domestic pressure, domestic demands about the Gaza war and about the economy, and how the government failed to notice that complaints were this big before.

MCCLEAN: Scott McLean, CNN, Istanbul.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SOARES: And just an hour ago or so if you're watching me on the show, I spoke with UNICEF spokesman James Elder, who was in Rafah just a week ago. Here's our conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES ELDER, GLOBAL SPOKESPERSON, UNICEF: It's terrifying. I feel like we've been terrified for months.

SOARES: Yeah.

ELDER: And when we hear those news reports of getting tense and so forth together, it's -- it speaks that children have perennially have been a secondary consideration in this entire war, that there is no real backup plan for them.

We know this as the United Nations. We are asked to find a place for a million people to go. My Palestinian friends point to the beach and say, you can put a few hundred thousand people there and they know they are going there to die.

So there is no way for them to go. Hospitals have tens of thousands of people seeking refuge huge beyond the many, many hundreds who can't be moved because they've got critical illnesses from this war. You've got the elderly. Isa, I work for UNICEF, but I'm constantly struck in Gaza, in Rafah, when I see elderly people walking around as an elderly person would, they cannot move, they won't move again.

[15:15:01]

They've -- their entire system, their entire system of well-being has been shattered.

So the idea that is -- this is becoming more and more certain event, I mean, it should be terrifying for the world.

SOARES: Indeed.

And, James, I do wonder in terms of the conversation, I mean, has UNICEF or any are the NGO heard anything as to how this may be happening, our conversations happening behind closed doors. How will people be moved? Where will they be moved to? What support will there be? Will NGOs get a heads up?

ELDER: It's a great -- it's a great question and no. And yet there is a theory so that were already in the operational phase that this will happen and there'll be some decision made that, you know, aid agencies of the United Nations can keep these people safe. Well, there's two problems with this.

One, legally, Israel as the occupying power has the responsibility not just to facilitate aid and that's not being facilitated. People are shot as they are accessing aid convoys. We have most of the restrictions going to the north. That's why there is imminent famine. But there's also that responsibility to therefore ensure there are toilets and showers.

Rafah, as we've said on your program, Isa, Rafah has around one shower for every three-and-a-half thousand people, that would probably turn to 10,000 people if they move somewhere else. So, no, there's no provisions in these.

And why is there no provisions? Because civilians and children have throughout this conflict being second-class citizens at best. If there was a genuine attempt only to target militants and not to have a situation where 1 percent of Gaza's child population has been killed and historic new low, if there was a real intend to protect children from the militants, then they would, of course, be tents and showers and bathrooms and hospitals.

The first hospital that we will see go in round is the largest standing hospital. And that's directly in the line of fire. Is there a provision being made for other health care at a time when children need health care more than ever? No. No, there's not.

And that speaks to the intent and the complete disregard for children.

SOARES: And we've seen -- we've heard I should say, in terms of aid, James, the Secretary of State Antony Blinken said there's some 400 aid trucks were clear to into Gaza. That was on Monday, that according to Secretary Blinken, the highest number since October the 7th. But -- I mean, is this getting to where it needs to go in a sustained way? I suppose the question, I suppose it begs the question. I wonder whether you're thinking this too, is why was something that was seen as impossible now possible?

ELDER: Well, quite, exactly. There's a couple of things. Again, for 400 trucks is a good start. They're not getting to the north where there is imminent famine. There is many, many fictions occurring in- between that, so that's a major problem.

That could be fixed by opening up crossing in the north. We're told there will now be crossing opened in the north. We were told that on the 21st of February. That hasn't happened.

We're told Erez will open in the north, Isa. My great fear, UNICEF, the U.N.'s great fear is that, that crossing will open because an offensive in Rafah will absolutely devastate any opportunity to get aid through there. So we are at a game of counting trucks. The reality is people in the north are at a level of imminent famine. We've seen children fall into catastrophic hunger at a number that we haven't seen anywhere before.

And again, it speaks to intent. We don't have an intentionally good effort to get as much aid as we can to those in need. We have the -- we have smoke and mirrors in numbers.

And then on the ground, every possible obstruction speaking to whether UNRWA as the largest U.N. agency and supplying 50 percent of food to the north, hasn't got supplies in to the north since January or UNICEF supporting only children every time we load a convoy with life-saving medicines or nutritional food, we have to unload that and reload it four times before it gets to those children we serve.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SOARES: And our thanks to James Elder there.

As we mentioned, the top of your show, the IDF said its troops are now regrouping for other missions, that including in Rafah, where more than a million Palestinian civilians are sheltering.

I want to bring our CNN military analysts Mark Hertling for more on those military developments.

General, thank you very much for coming on the show. You would have heard Prime Minister Netanyahu say that no force in the world will stop its troops from entering Gaza. If that goes ahead and when it does go ahead, how might that look like, General?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, from the very beginning, he said, there has been no connection between the political and diplomatic efforts with the military efforts. The military efforts in and of themselves should always be linked to that from an overarching strategy.

But Mr. Netanyahu said many times that it is impossible to achieve the goal of eliminating Hamas, which he has stated as a priority with -- by leaving four battalions and not sure what size that is, four battalions of Hamas operatives inside of Rafah.

[15:20:08]

So it is become a primary effort of the Israeli Defense Forces, but it's going to cause significant damage in that area.

Mr. Netanyahu has said that he was looking to try and push some of the hostages to the smaller vicinity of the town of al-Mawasi, which is just northeast of Rafah. But that's going to be nearly impossible when you're talking about 1-1/2 million people.

SOARES: And that's exactly what we heard, if you heard the clip there, that interview there with James Elder, the spokesperson for UNICEF, who's just come back and back from Gaza. I mean, in terms of trying, can even be done first of all, can you even move the more and more than 1 million plus people, General?

HERTLING: Well, it certainly could be, Isa. What we're talking about is an area about 14 square kilometers and al-Mawasi, if you compare that as an example, and it has been compared to the Sydney airport in Australia, which is about nine square kilometers, talking about putting that many people in that small of a location with no hygiene facilities, no running water, very little food as your previous guests just talked about? No facilities for them to sleep or live, it's going to be very difficult.

And when you're talking about a rushed operation, and again, Mr. Netanyahu has not declared exactly when this operation will occur, you know, from a military perspective, as a former military commander in combat where there are civilians, it's not doing a very good of protect, a very good job of protecting the civilians in the battlespace.

SOARES: And, of course, and like you said, this is a densely populated area, right, General? I mean, even if they can't move everyone, we don't have the -- we don't know how imminent it is. We don't -- there has no plan. We've heard from the United States today, say they also haven't seen the plan from Israel.

Talk to -- I mean, how do you conduct a counterinsurgency operation with so many cities, civilians there present?

HERTLING: Well, it's actually not a counterinsurgency. It's a counter terrorism operation. And what you have, and that's a very different type of military operation. What you have is those terrorists, specifically Hamas wanting to use the advantage of killing Palestinians. This isn't just the Israelis having a military operation there.

It is part of Hamas's strategy to use those civilians as shields. First of all, that's been stated from the very beginning, but they really don't care how many civilians are hurt because that contributes to their strategy of making Israel look bad. Israel looks bad because in this case, they are conducting the operation which Hamas wants them to conduct. And I know that sounds very confusing. But when you had those civilians interspersed within the terrorists -- I mean, as a military commander, in other locations, I'll name Iraq where I serve, it's very difficult to say, hey, this individual walking down the street is a civilian versus a terrorist, which one?

How do you separate that when you're talking about a million and a half people? How do you separate the good Palestinians from those who are supporting Hamas and who are actually part of the terrorist outfit?

This is the challenge of this kind of counterterrorism operation, which has somewhat developed into a counterinsurgency because more and more of the Palestinian civilians were being hurt and killed are saying why are we allowing the Israeli government to do this? And the only reason they are is because they don't have a government of their own. And unfortunately, they're being overwhelmed by Israel's fight against Hamas.

SOARES: And, General, of course, we don't have an exact date. We don't know how eminent it is, but if Israel's putting then a plan together, which we understand they are, how long are we live? We look at how long before they are prepared to take this, make this plan active you think?

And I know -- you know, pulling the strings here, how long is a piece of string, but how long would it take here?

HERTLING: Well, truthfully as I said from the very beginning of this campaign, I gave a minimum of six months for the entire Israeli-Gaza operation. It's now been longer than that. And that's a minimum time- frame.

You're also talking about tonight is that is Eid al Fitr, which is the end of the holy month of Ramadan. So I think anything after this would start. How long it would take -- again, it depends on how tough the operation is and what I mean by that is how much defense does the enemy Hamas, the terrorists, provide inside of these cells? Is Israel attempting to do not only the killing of Hamas, but also the separating of the citizens?

[15:25:03]

And is there still the hostage attempts to rescue the hostages?

So you have just -- I can't express this enough. This is the toughest kind of military operation that you could ever consider, a combination of an enemy that's floating among the people where there's 130 hostages and Israel has always said, we don't negotiate with terrorists. They've attempted to negotiate. And in fact, at every turn, Hamas has said, no, we're not going to negotiate even when Israel has offered unbelievable attempts at trying to provide a ceasefire, Hamas has repeatedly said no. So all of those things contribute, I'll go back to your original

question, Isa, how long is it going to take? I have no freaking clue and no one else does either.

SOARES: And, look, we've heard from the United States. We heard today from Secretary Blinken saying they haven't seen a plan. We've also know that the United States at any sort of assault on Rafah, General, it would be a mistake. That's clearly falling on deaf ears because Netanyahu, as we've mentioned earlier, is under pressure from right- wing members of his government.

But I wonder when a plan, if a plan is presented to the United States, when a plan is put forward -- I mean, it raises questions of the credibility of the plan, given what happened, not just with the number of people have died, Palestinian died in Raffa, but also just a couple of weeks ago with World Central Kitchen, those strikes all or on those aid workers.

HERTLING: I think what we have to go back to Isa is the fact that strategy is developed by the politicians and the operational military commanders say, we will conduct our operations, our battles based on that government and political strategy.

What we have in this case is Israel has had a military strategy. They have not had a political or a diplomatic strategy. And this -- they specifically want to go in primarily to kill Hamas and secure the Israeli people. I don't see as a military guy, a blending of the political strategy to the military operation.

We've asked this question so many times. What comes next? Even if Hamas is destroyed, what's going to happen then from the government of Israel as well as the government or any people who claim themselves to be the government inside of Gaza?

SOARES: And there's a question is that we know the United States has been pushing for and calling for and still from what we know, has not received.

General Mark Hertling, always appreciate your time. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. Finish your thought.

(CROSSTALK)

HERTLING: The United States has been pushing this from the very beginning because as a military guy under the U.S. strategy in a couple of different countries, sometimes the military operations took priority over this strategy, and that gets you in trouble. And I think Mr. Biden and the administration has suggested that Mr. Netanyahu we have made mistakes in this category. Here's how you may want to avoid those as you conduct these operations. And it doesn't appear that he has taken that advice.

SOARES: Indeed. General Mark Hertling, as always, great to see you. Thank you very much, sir.

I want to take a short break. We're back after this. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:31:27]

SOARES: Welcome back, everyone.

If you're just joining us, let me bring you up-to-date with some breaking news that we've been following for the last hour and a half or so. The state Supreme Court of Arizona has ruled that a century-old law banning nearly all abortions is enforced. When that measure which prohibits abortion except in cases where it's necessary to save the mother's life, carries a prison sentence of two to five years for abortion providers.

Now, the court rules that the law now replaces Arizona's 15-week ban, but it won't take effect just yet. The court put its ruling on hold for two weeks and send the case back to lower court to hear the additional arguments.

And Natasha Chen joins me now for the details from Los Angeles.

Natasha, of course, you and I were talking about this in the last hour. I mean, this is a major ruling upholding its, you know, scratching my head here. 90s century band just talk us through the courts opinion first and foremost.

NATASHA CHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Right. It's very confusing because they're all two seemingly two opposing rules in Arizona that this court was trying to clarify here and today, we understand that they are upholding this law that dates back to 1864, but was codified in 1901. What happens here is no one who provided abortion prior to this ruling will be subject to the penalty you described that two to five-year prison sentence. And this opinion, like you said, doesn't take effect for 14 calendar days.

But this is, of course, a huge back-and-forth, a very winding road for the people of Arizona. And there is still more to be argued here about the constitutionality of this old law. This ruling today wasn't so much about whether that law is constitutional, it's whether it's still enforceable and we're getting strong reactions from people. The attorney general of Arizona saying this is unconscionable and an affront of freedom, also saying that as long as she is attorney general, no woman or doctor will be prosecuted under this, quote, draconian law in the state.

So you have an attorney general there saying that there won't be an enforcement of a -- won't be prosecution of this and we have also at the same time a group of citizens trying to gather signatures to put this to voters in November. They are gathering signatures to try to enshrining abortion rights in the state's constitution. Because as it is, as you mentioned, this law dating back to 1860 says that nearly all abortions are banned except for the case when it is necessary to save the life of a mother, and the abortion provider can be put in prison for two to five years.

Without Roe versus Wade, there's no independent right either in the state of Arizona or in federal law that would serve as the basis for the 15-week ban that the state passed in 2022. That's the courts argument. And therefore, this older law they say was on hiatus while Roe versus Wade was in effect essentially. And now it is back in effect, and that's why we start looking at something that was written into law before Arizona was a state, when women did not have the right to vote.

SOARES: And, look, I think it's important. Abortion as we have seen, Natasha, from polling in the last few months is going to be one of the key deciders, all of the selection.

Just talk to the importance of this moment.

[15:35:02]

CHEN: Absolutely. You are talking about swing states, where Joe Biden just won narrowly in 2020 and we are talking about the possibility of a ballot initiative in November, asking voters whether they'd like to enshrine abortion rights in the state's constitution.

Now that -- if that goes forward, it is likely to draw a lot of voters, perhaps on both sides here. And that will affect the turnout for votes up and down the ticket. Whether were talking about the presidential election, the Senate election. So this is -- this is going to be a very intense few months ahead of November.

SOARES: Yeah, indeed. And we've just seen in last few minutes statements from Vice President Harris on today's ruling, and she says Arizona just rolled back the clock to a time before women could vote, she says, and by his own admission, there's one person some responsible. That is Donald Trump.

We'll stay across the breaking news. Of course, I'm going to take a short break. We're back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOARES: Now, two major matches in European football or soccer are currently underway. Manchester City are in Spain taking on Real Madrid. And here in London, Premier League leaders also are hosting Bayern Munich.

But overshadowing the Champions League quarterfinals are alleged terrorists threats. European footballs governing body UEFA said despite the threats, these matches are still going to go ahead with security measures in place. London's metropolitan police or the UK terrorism threat level remains at substantial. That basically means that attack in the country is considered lightly.

Our senior sports analyst Darren Lewis joins me now in the studio for more.

And, Darren, I know you are outside the Emirates Stadium earlier and you and I were talking the previous hour and you saw security means stepped up. DARREN LEWIS, CNN SENIOR SPORTS ANALYST: Yes, I did. There were patrols, three-man patrols, women patrols and also patrols in cars, in bands, security personnel deployed outside the stadium as well.

And it kind of underlying the level of anxiety that it has generated here in England, in Spain, where the threat level is four out of five. And in France as well where the French champions PSG play a Barcelona tomorrow evening.

Now, just to recap of what has been quite a dramatic days.

[15:40:02]

The governing body of European football UEFA, they issued a very uncharacteristically strong statement where they said that they were aware of the alleged terror threat to use their words, and that was replicated in Spain and in France, a sports minister, Pilar Alegria, said that there had been a very robust operation in which 2,000 police and civil guard officers deployed ahead of the Real Madrid game against Manchester City which is in progress as we speak and then in France, you had the interior, interior minister, Gerald Darmanin, talking about another robust operation to protect the game between PSG and Barcelona tomorrow evening.

Now, in England, the English FA have not yet spoken, but it did direct to us, I spoke to them earlier on this afternoon to the Metropolitan Police in London, as those game against by Munich, the German champions is in progress, again, as we speak. And they said that there was a robust policing plan in operation to protect the fans inside the stadium and the public around the stadium as well.

So you can only imagine the scale of the police presence at all three locations. And, of course, it does go back to 2015 when things did go so dramatically wrong. So all of those police officers and peoples have supervising those operations do now how significant.

SOARES: Yeah. I mean, I remember it. I was there, we covered it intensely. I wonder, do we have any more details from the authorities in terms of the threat it was focused clearly footballers, at stadiums. What more do we know in terms of the threats?

LEWIS: It came from a pro-IS websites and it did make -- it did have images of stadia, which is which are to be used for the Champions League games, the quarterfinal ties, the last eight teams in the competition facing off against each other. And they are -- they generate huge interest across Europe so you can understand why they would be high risk targets. And as I ended it before, it is something that they know would generate huge interest.

SOARES: I know you're going to stay across it for us, hopefully nothing happens. Thank you very much, Darren. I appreciate it.

That does it for us for tonight. Thank you very much.

"MARKETPLACE AFRICA" is next. I shall see you tomorrow. Bye-bye.