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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Two Students And Two Teachers Killed In GA High School Shooting, Liz Cheney Says She's Voting For Harris; New CNN Poll Of Battleground States Shows A Tight Race, Large Gender Gap In Presidential Preference; Tuesday Night's Presidential Debate Between Trump-Harris Is In Philadelphia With No Audience; Casualties Reported At Apalachee High School In Georgia After Reports Of A Shooting, One Suspect In Custody. 8-9p ET

Aired September 04, 2024 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: A different Ukrainian unit now acknowledging they're using a trial version of a fire spewing drone that drops an incendiary substance on Russian positions.

But the Russians keep hitting Ukraine with much bigger munitions, missile strikes killing several people in Lviv in Western Ukraine overnight. Search and rescue crews, recovering the bodies for hours.

Kyiv's leadership has vowed revenge for Russia's aerial attacks again Ukrainian cities, a driving factor also for the soldiers attacking Russian positions on the Northeastern front.

Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Kyiv.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Thanks, Fred for that incredible reporting and thanks to all of you for being with us. Anderson starts now.

[20:00:43]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360, all we are learning about the latest school shooting, this time in Georgia.

Two students and two teachers killed nine others, hospitalized.

There is breaking news in presidential politics. Liz Cheney, not a Democrat, says she is voting for the Democrat.

Plus, with just six days until debate night, how the two sides are getting ready for what could be a decisive moment in a very close race.

Good evening. John Berman here, in for Anderson.

Four killed two students, two teachers, nine injured. People gather tonight in Winder, Georgia taking part in a community ritual that no community ever wants, sharing a moment that no one would ever welcome and every piece of footage that is now a regular part of the visual catalogue of American mass killing.

Footage, like this of students being marched out of the place where teachers and classmates had been murdered, their hands up as a precaution.

Today's mass shooting at Apalachee High School was the 45th this year. CNN's Ryan Young is there for us tonight. Ryan, what are you learning about the investigation tonight?

RYAN YOUNG, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, before I talk about the investigation, because we do have some new details to share along with our viewers, but to understand where I'm standing right now, it's almost beyond words.

There are people who are around us who are shaking, they are crying, they are hugging, they're trying to figure out where the North Star is right now because they say some of them that they feel lost. You have kids who went to high school for the first time and who are now trying to figure out whether or not they ever want to go to school again.

This vigil was full of people who were just letting their hearts pour out because they can't believe this happened in their neighborhood, but just in the last three minutes or so, the FBI has released a statement that basically this shooter has been made aware to them before. There were concerns about him.

The family had been moving around. The father had indicated that this kid did not have access to weapons and that local authorities did the most they could before this kid moved and came to this jurisdiction

So, they were made aware that something was off about a situation with this 14-year-old. And of course, today was every person's worse nightmare. As this turned out, he was able to make it inside the school with a weapon and opened fire.

We've talked to so many students who heard the gunfire. I was actually just talking to a young lady who said she was on the way to the bathroom and apparently, at this school the doors lock behind you when the door opens and closes and she was caught in the hallway. She had to bang on the door to ask to get back inside. Luckily, her teacher recognized her and was able to let her in.

I will tell you over and over, we hear from these students that the teachers did the most they could to keep them protected, keep them safe, put them in closets barricade doors, and run.

We know two teachers lost their lives. So, I talked to a student today and said they saw the blood trail as a teacher was hit and was trying to get back into one of the classrooms.

I want you to take a listen to a student that we just talked to, a ninth grader who said, one of the students who lost her life today was a friend of hers. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FEMALE STUDENT, APALACHEE HIGH SCHOOL: When I found out, I started crying and I just got mad because why would you just shoot innocent people that you don't even know.

It's just like really sad because like, you don't even know him and he's actually like a sweet person, you know, like class clown. He was one of those and he was funny.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

YOUNG: John, there's a lot of questions about exactly what happened, how the student got in the school, what we do know right now is that this school seemed to be prepared. They had done drills before when it comes to school, shooters.

And so, when the process started happening, they knew what to do and the teachers did do that barricade. But again, just in the last three minutes or so, getting a notice from the FBI that this student had been made aware to them. They passed it down to local law enforcement, local law enforcement did a check.

And then after that, apparently the student's father indicated that he didn't have access to weapons.

So now the conversation is not only about exactly how he got access to the weapon, but where did he get the gun from? So, that's a part of the conversation.

We do know right now, they have not released what kind of caliber weapon it was, how many shots were fired as this investigation continues.

This school is so brand-new. There's video surveillance. So we know investigators are at least able to go through that, piece-by-piece to do a timestamp and the shooter surrendered pretty early on after he was engaged by those deputies who worked there at the high school and is talking to investigators.

[20:05:22]

So, hopefully we have an idea about what motivated this. But listening to that young ninth grader talk about losing a friend. She didn't go to school today and her friend was lost and she knew the other person who was shot as well.

There are so many stories just like this one in this tight knit community. People just sort of have that look of losses in their face, like, what do you do next?

Still waiting to figure out about first court appearance which could happen tomorrow or the next day because we know the shooter has been charged as an adult, something John, that we will stay on top of. This is still a developing story because the FBI and other investigator workers are working through the night as they process that scene and other scenes throughout this county -- John.

BERMAN: Ryan Young, a lot of new information there. Thank you so much for your reporting. All those people you're talking to, let them know we're thinking about them..

All right, Stephen Kreyenbuhl, teaches Social Studies at the high school. His classroom was just down the hall from this shooting. He joins us now.

Stephen, thank you for being with us. I'm so sorry, it's under these circumstances. Can you walk us through what happened in your classroom? How you and your students reacted when you heard the gunshots?

STEPHEN KREYENBUHL, SOCIAL STUDIES TEACHER, APALACHEE HIGH SCHOOL: Yes, sir. So, the first thing that occurred on my smartboard that a hard lockdown was initiated, our county and our administration has done a great job to prepare us -- in that instance, I knew something, emergency-wise, was about to happen.

We train basically every semester for these situations. So, my first instinct was that I need a weapon. I need to protect my students. I got everybody in the corner, turned off the lights. And just kind of held everyone nice and tight. Just said, you know, just wait for everything to happen, everything to pass, and I was so happy to hear voice of our SRO outside the hallway within about two minutes of the gunfire.

And I just knew that things were going to be okay for me, my co- teacher, and my students

BERMAN: How far was the shooter from your classroom?

KREYENBUHL: I want to say, it would be about like halfway down the hall, from where I was.

BERMAN: The mother of one of your students, you were just talking about this as you put everyone in the corner and you stood over them to protect them, in case the shooter came into your classroom, what was going through your head during this time?

KREYENBUHL: Yes, sir. So my number one priority as a teacher is the safety of my students. No matter what, every day that my number one overall goal besides their education is to make sure that they get home safe to their mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters.

My admins really approach that, that's kind of the one of the key parts is that -- is I am there for those kids every day, and especially their safety. So, it just feels like for me that's -- it's become part of the job.

BERMAN: How long did this all last? KREYENBUHL: Somewhere between -- it felt like somewhere between 45 minutes to an hour it felt like things happened around just after 10:15 and I felt like we were outside by 11:00 o'clock.

BERMAN: Did you personally know any of the students or teachers who lost her life today?

KREYENBUHL: Yes, sir. I knew one of the teachers. I don't want to speak specifically on him just because I know there's a lot of still reports coming out. I myself actually don't know the second teacher's name. That's been announced.

So, I'm still waiting for that news myself and following reports from the GBI, but I know he was a well respected individual. He meant a lot to this community, a lot to the athletic programs that we have, at our institutions.

So, he'll be sorely missed and it's hard to replace someone like that because he himself just cared a lot about his students and a lot for this community as well.

BERMAN: Again, I'm so sorry for your loss and for the uncertainty that still exists around the names, of the identities, the people who were lost.

What do you want the world to know about Apalachee High School and the students and the faculty there?

KREYENBUHL: Well, the first thing I heard that your reporter address this concern as well. What should people do next? So, it's a little crude, but as you can see, there's actually a website that people can donate to. It's called barrowcf.org basically it stands for Barrow Crisis Fund that people will be able to -- so, I'll tell you that its tough because this year was the 25th anniversary of Apalachee High School's creation and it's a community that cares a lot about its kids. And to quote our sheriff today, there's an evil act that was incurred in our institution.

However, there's been so much good coming out right now. We have groups, you know, funding to (AUDIO GAP) they're going to be take care of that every night that they're going to have hot meals.

So, I don't want to let this one bad incident paint a view on our community that is so much more than that. There's so much positivity, and there's going to be so much good that will come out of this tragedy.

BERMAN: Your students are going to be leaning on you. They are lucky to have you. Again, we are so sorry for your loss. Everyone did see that piece of paper you were holding up there? Steven Kreyenbuhl, thank you so much for being with us.

KREYENBUHL: Thank you.

[20:10:19] BERMAN: With us. Now, CNN, chief law enforcement intelligence analyst, John Miller, also retired FBI supervisory special agent, Daniel Brunner.

John, let me just start with you, in the news that Ryan just reported there, a few minutes ago, that this shooter was known to authorities. What more can you tell us about that? What exactly does that mean?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Though that's developing now, but what it suggests is that the FBI received a tip or information about this individual. That usually would come into either the field office or sometimes the National Threat Assessment Center and then those are usually sent out to local law enforcement as a lead, saying we have this information to follow up on it.

We'll have to sort through, what was the order of where did it go? Who was it shared with? And then what happened with it?

BERMAN: And you're on the phone just moments ago while I was even on the air. We're you getting new information about the weapon used?

MILLER: So, we are told that it is an AR-15 long rifle that is one of those things that if that's the case, how did it get into the school?

But as we saw in the attempted assassination of Donald Trump, they have folding stocks. They have removable barrels. It can fit into a backpack, can be assembled very quickly. So, that's going to be something else to look at.

BERMAN: All right, Daniel, what stands out to you on the details that we've learned so far from law enforcement?

DANIEL BRUNNER, RETIRED FBI SUPERVISORY SPECIAL AGENT: I think there are a couple of things that are interesting to hear from a lot of the press conferences.

One of the things that really stands out we're understanding is obviously the motivation of the shooter. Why was he or why were they involved in the school. Why -- what was the motivation for the shooting? And their investigation is going to find that.

They're going to comb over everything, all the electronic evidence, all the electronic data. They're going to interview all the family, friends, associates of the shooter. They're going to find out everything that he's been doing in the last few weeks, the last few months.

But I also found it interesting that he surrendered where, when there's active shooter training with the FBI and local law enforcement we're trained to get to the scene as quickly as possible. There's an active shooter, the individual is killing individuals, wounding individuals.

The fact that the individual surrendered, that the shooter surrendered to the SRO officers. The SRO, their training just as you see on all of the body cams, their training is to get to the scene and immediately neutralize the threat. If that individual still had the weapon in his hands when the SRO arrived at that scene, most likely that SRO would not have given commands.

The deadly force policy clearly states that individual is a threat to the community, and he is a threat with the gun in his hand. I still want to find out how the individual, how the SRO bravely was able to subdue the individual, and how they surrendered because if he had his weapon in hand, the SRO probably would have engaged him and would have killed him without any alerts or warnings to stop doing what they're doing.

BERMAN: John, we've heard accounts of how the shooter tried to get into his own classroom, couldn't. And then went to another classroom. What does that tell you?

MILLER: Well, that suggests a couple of things. And you know, you base this on all of the things you learn in the offender characteristics from the way too many school shooters and active shooters.

But what it tells us is, going to the place where he was familiar, where he was familiar with the people inside. But it also tells us something which is, we see this time and time again, people who are emotional in their own personal lives, overwrought by events, driven to actions like this, once they are focused on mission they manage to be able to stay focused on mission pivot quickly.

Okay, there's an obstacle here, I'm going to go to the next place, the path of least resistance. I'm going to continue and find victims where I have them. And as we circled to in our last question, while trying to increase lethality as he went to students, to teachers. One of the things we have to look at is, where those teachers who were trying to intervene or just targets of availability that he was willing to surrender when confronted by police, which means he was willing to kill people. That was in his plan, but not necessarily willing to die for it, which is sometimes built into the plan.

BERMAN: Yes, it sometimes is. It is interesting in and of itself there. Daniel, what unanswered questions do you have right now?

BRUNNER: Well again, like I said, the motivation, how the individual obtained the weapon. Clearly, the fact that he was on the FBI's radar is going to be up for discussion. They're going to want to talk about it. They're going to look at the guardian lead when it came in. What did the FBI do? Did they just hand it to the locals? And did the individual -- the shooters family just moved from one community to the other and did the threat get lost in the transit, because that still is an individual that is a threat to the community.

[20:15:30]

So, I think that there's a lot to be determined. But fortunately, there's a lot of support that's going to be coming out of this to find out why he was doing this and then as previously discussed in other programs to figure out what were the mistakes that were made. How can we correct this situation so this doesn't happen again, and that the FBI can assist and provide that information, working with local law enforcement and the GBI.

BERMAN: All right, Daniel Brunner, thank you very much. John Miller, I know you are working your sources. You've been on the phone for hours now, come back to us when you learn new information.

We are also expecting to hear from authorities in Winder again very shortly. We will bring you any new information they may have when that press conference does happen.

Next, presidential politics and breaking news from a staunch conservative from a deep red state, Liz Cheney, announcing she is now a Harris voter. Why she says she is doing it and the impact it could have.

And then later, the very different way in which each side is preparing for their first and perhaps only debate, which is just six days from now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:20:25]

BERMAN: There is breaking news tonight from the presidential campaign and the widely anticipated, it still packs a punch.

Former Wyoming Congresswoman, Liz Cheney, a staunch conservative and daughter of two staunch conservatives from a deep red state is voting Democratic for president.

This is how she explained her decision during remarks today at Duke University in battleground North Carolina.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LIZ CHENEY, FORMER US REPRESENTATIVE (voice over): As a conservative, as someone who believes it in and cares about the Constitution. I have thought deeply about this and because of the danger that Donald Trump poses, not only am I not voting for Donald Trump, but I will be voting for Kamala Harris.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BERMAN: Just three years ago, she was the number three Republican in the House. She now joins Adam Kinzinger, a former fellow Republican of the House, January 6 committee in backing the vice president as she put it today, "I don't believe we have the luxury of writing in candidates names, particularly in swing states".

Perspective now from "New York Times" senior political correspondent, Maggie Haberman, also, Ashley Etienne, who served as Vice President Harris' communications director, and Republican strategist, Erin Perrine.

Maggie, I want to start with you, Donald Trump, not a fan of Liz Cheney, I think it's safe to say at this point, but how much do you think this public endorsement will get under his skin? MAGGIE HABERMAN, SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: I mean, given the fact that he comments at almost everything under the sun on Truth Social, I think there is a real possibility that he will talk about this in negative terms.

She bothers him a great deal. The January 6 Committee's work bothered him a great deal.

I think what's interesting about it is the signal that it sends to Republicans who did not support Donald Trump, who may have supported Nikki Haley, or no one at all, that they can feel comfortable. I mean, that is what she is signaling to them. They can feel comfortable backing Kamala Harris.

But I also think that Donald Trump is very preoccupied with a number of things right now. And so we will see if this gets to him or if it becomes a bigger sound further down the road.

BERMAN: We'll talk about preoccupation in just a minute, but I want to pick up another point you made with Erin Perrine.

Erin, what about Maggie's point there, so a permission structure for Haley Republicans, how much of that is at play here?

ERIN PERRINE, FORMER DIRECTOR OF COMMUNICATIONS, TRUMP 2020 CAMPAIGN: That certainly could be at play here. And I think that Maggie is right, that having a Republican with a prominent name stepping forward is an opportunity for people to say it is a permission slip for people to leave the traditional Republican Party as it sits right now and vote otherwise, if that is somebody they want to write in or if they do want to vote for Kamala Harris.

You saw little bit of this play out during the primary with the Republicans. There were attempts to try and say, you could have her permission slip to vote outside of Trump. This is something that Republican Party has been tussling with.

But those Nikki voters, if you go back to the primary, there were plenty of those that were Independent voters and not traditional Republicans. So this for them, while it won't move them as a Republican, could be part of that Independent voting bloc that Kamala Harris is going to need to move to be able to win in November.

BERMAN: So Ashley, if you're part of the Harris campaign, how do you capitalize on this? She has said, she would appoint a Republican to serve in her Cabinet. Do you hint that maybe Liz Cheney could be a possibility there?

ASHLEY ETIENNE, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER, BIDEN-HARRIS 2020 CAMPAIGN: I mean, there's always a possibility that Liz Cheney could be appointed to a Cabinet position, you know, I mean, kudos to her, she's demonstrated a level of courage that were not really seeing much in the Republican Party.

She was first to call Donald Trump out. She said they were sleepwalking as a nation to a dictatorship before he said he would be a dictator on day one. So, she actually is intimately aware of the very threat that Donald Trump poses to this nation. And so again, I mean, she deserves a lot of credit.

And if that yields in an appointment in the Cabinet, I mean, I would welcome that.

BERMAN: Maggie, Donald Trump gave an interview in "Good Morning, New Hampshire" which is a radio show in New Hampshire, it turns out.

And he was talking about Vice President Harris, who was also there today. And he said that Democrats coalesced around her to be politically correct. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R) FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They didn't want her, but they were politically correct. They wanted to be politically correct as so many people do nowadays.

She can't do an interview. She's either not smart enough for that, I think that's actually the case. But she's either not smart enough to do them. Something's wrong. There's something wrong.

(END AUDIO CLIP)\

BERMAN: So how does this align with the stick to the issues policy that the campaign has telegraphed they want to be on?

HABERMAN: Not so much. I mean, look, the campaign wants to tie the vice president to President Biden and make them a unit over the last four years, three-and-a-half years. And Donald Trump wants to insult the vice president in very personal terms and you get to see that there.

I mean, the party coalesced around her. There were other people who thought they may themselves have been better candidates, there was never going to be an opportunity where there was going to be that kind of a process.

[20:25:05]

Donald Trump is the glue that binds both of these parties right now. And defeating him has been key for Democrats in 2020 and now it is again in 2024 and that is why Democrats support her.

BERMAN: You said he's preoccupied with things. I'm sure the debate is one of them, but what else is on his mind right now?

HABERMAN: There's a lot of different legal tangles swirling around him right now. His legal troubles have not really been center stage for a while now since his criminal conviction in Manhattan, which he is appealing. He is supposed to be sentenced in that case on September 18th.

There's a big question about whether the judge will move it. So that's looming, number one. There is an appeals hearing in the E. Jean Carroll case on Friday that he may or may not go to. As of last night, that was still up in the air.

There has been a report that he was going to attend. There's nothing for him to see there. He's just going to listen to lawyers arguing, and then there is going to be a hearing related to the federal January 6 case tomorrow.

And so, those cases tend to actually engage him as much as anything. So, with everything, as well as preparing for the debate in whatever way he prepares for the debate, I think those things are on his mind as much as anything.

BERMAN: That is interesting.

Erin, those personal attacks that you hear right there, you know, how concerned are you and most Republicans that I talked to do want him to stick to the issues in the debate. How concerned are you about what message those attacks send to battleground voters and how he may behave in the coming days?

PERRINE: It depends on the attack and what state we're talking about, but it's much better for Donald Trump to stick to the issues, to talk about getting Joe Biden and Kamala Harris more closely tied together in the mind of voters at this point.

What we've seen in Kamala's polling is not only a coalescing of the Democratic base, but you've seen where other voters have said that they are interested in what appears to be a change candidate.

If Donald Trump sticks to the message that Kamala isn't change, she is more of Joe Biden, and she's more than Joe Biden, she's more of the radical left that would take away private health insurance, that would open the southern border.

If he talks more about those policies and how closely she is tied to Joe Biden,, that would help him win the election in November.

BERMAN: You know, Ashley, on that subject, Vice President Harris actually put forward a changed economic plan from President Biden, kind of broke with him on capital gains taxes. How much distance do you think she needs to put between herself and President Biden?

ETIENNE: Well, she's in this unprecedented position where she's both an incumbent and a challenger, so she can take parts of their record that people like and want more of and adopt that and own that and then create some distance to your point on issues where she has a different vision for the nation, where we need to be more aggressive and lean in and she's done that not just today, in terms of rolling out the capital gains, but also she did that with the opportunity economy when she leaned into greater tax cuts for families and housing and those other things.

But can I just go back quickly to Liz Cheney. I think the other thing that I wouldn't want us to overlook is not only does she create a permission structure for those disaffected Republicans to come on board with Harris and Independents, but also, she is creating a permission structure for other Republicans, Republican leaders to really lean in and say that they are, you know, going to support the Harris ticket.

So, there's a lot of value into your question leveraging Liz Cheney.

BERMAN: If there are any other Republicans of that stature , still out there who --

ETIENNE: We've got Mitt Romney and others who will come along.

BERMAN: We'll see, I would not hold your breath on that one, but I get your point. Everyone stick around.

David Chalian is going to join us next from the magic wall with new CNN polling and what it shows about which states are shaping up to be absolutely pivotal in November.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:32:33]

BERMAN: Tonight's breaking news that Liz Cheney is voting for Vice President Harris might change some minds, but we won't know about her for a while, if it does. What we do know right now is how the race is shaping up in key battleground states, thanks to latest batch of CNN polling. Latest on that from CNN Political Director, David Chalian at the magic walls, like a political fantasy, mind you wake up with David and end the day with David. So, how tight are the races in the battleground states?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Very tight, John. This battle for 270 electoral votes, take a look at this, you will see how title race this is. Our brand new polls across six states, now, in two of them, we see a slight lead for Kamala Harris. In Wisconsin, 50/44. Michigan, she at about 48/43 advantage there. Those are outside the margin of error. In Arizona, we see the reverse, we see Trump outside the margin of error.

And in Georgia, Nevada, and Pennsylvania, look at that in Pennsylvania, a dead tie. These states have no clear leader, well within the margin of error, and they could determine which candidate gets the 270 electoral votes. Why so tight? Look at this gender gap, John, this is going to be one of the things we watch all the way through November. You see here, where Kamala Harris extends her advantage with female voters and Trump doesn't extend his with male voters in a place like Michigan. She has 16 point advantage. He only has an eight point advantage with male voters. In Wisconsin, 17 percentage point advantage among women for her, nine percentage point advantage for men for him.

Those are the states where she's leading. So that's what she's looking to do, extend her advantage with female voters in places that he doesn't overperform with male voters. That's key. And then, take a look at who is left here. I'm surprised by these numbers, but there's a swath of the electorate in these battleground states that is still movable. 16 percent in Pennsylvania, 16 percent in Michigan, down to 12 percent in Georgia. Obviously, most people say their mind is made up. But among these likely voters, there is a chunk of vote here who say they could change their mind, or they're not yet willing yet to commit to a candidate, John.

BERMAN: And that's absolutely enough to change the outcome here. All right, what's the top issue in these states? And who do the voters trust more to handle it?

CHALIAN: It's economy across the board, that may not surprise you. We've been talking about it all year long. But take a look here, pluralities and all six states among likely voters, they rate the economy as the issue, number one, driving their vote.

[20:35:00]

When you take a look at this broken down by candidate supporters, among Trump supporters, the economy is off the charts driving their support. That is not true for Harris supporters. In fact, protecting democracy is the issue among her supporters that rates number one. Again, overall, the economy is, but take a look at this Trump advantage on the economy. This is why it is so close right now. I mean, in Nevada and Arizona, he's overwhelming Harris on the economy. In places like Wisconsin, Michigan, it's a little bit closer. She has narrowed the gap on this issue number one, from where Joe Biden stood when he was the top of the ticket. But this is still a Trump advantage category and it's issue number one.

BERMAN: So, one of the things that Tim Walz did even before he was running mate for vice president Harris and the Harris campaign picked up on, is calling Donald Trump weird and that his ideas are not aligned with mainstream voters. What do the polls have to say about that?

CHALIAN: I think this is one of the most interesting things our poll, so take a look here. Among likely voters across all these states, majority say that Harris' policy views are in the mainstream, fewer say that her policy positions are too extreme. It is the reverse for Trump. In all six states, a majority or an Arizona 50 percent, but a majority elsewhere, say his views are too extreme. Fewer voters, likely voters say that they are generally in the mainstream. That's why you're going to hear Kamala Harris still talk about Project 2025 and label his plans as extreme to try to press that advantage, John.

BERMAN: That is very interesting. David Chalian, great to see you. Get some rest.

CHALIAN: You too, sir. Thanks.

BERMAN: Back now with our panel, Maggie Haberman, Ashley Etienne and Erin Perrine. Maggie, let's talk about Pennsylvania, shall we? Because it is the state, honestly, that I hear most about from Republicans and from people in the Trump campaign. How important is it to them? How do they feel about it?

HABERMAN: It's vital to them. In fact, the Super PAC, the main Super PAC backing Trump, its top official put out a memo several months ago describing it as the ball game. And so, you can't overstate the degree to which they're focused on Pennsylvania. They're feeling good about it and they had been feeling good about it for some time. Now, depending on which side you talk to, you hear different things about their polling. But I do think that the Trump team feels stronger about their position in Pennsylvania right now, than the Harris team does.

BERMAN: Ashley, that number that David pointed out about how many people are still changeable voters, about 15 percent of likely voters around it in all of those six states. If you're the Harris campaign, how do you reach those voters?

ETIENNE: Well, I mean they're doing it in very traditional and non- traditional ways. I mean, the non-traditional ways I find to be the most impressive. At the convention, they had 250 influencers that reach more than 350 million eyeballs, pushing out their message and they're going to utilize that army online to not just push back on disinformation, but to proactively push out her messaging and meeting voters where they are. So, that's one way that I think they're doing it in a way that we've never seen a national campaign.

Can I just say one thing that I think is very interesting in this polling? And that is she's winning on this question about who cares about me? Who cares about you? And you can see that theme now starting to run throughout her campaign. Even in her most recent ad, she opens up with I am focused on you and Donald Trump is not. I mean, January 6 was about Donald Trump, his efforts to try to cheat the election were about Donald Trump, even his failures on COVID were about Donald Trump. So, that's going to be the greatest contrasts and she's winning on that question. And I think she can enter into these other policy issues through that lens that he could care less about you.

BERMAN: Yeah, cares about people like you might be a backdoor into some of the economic issues as well.

HABERMAN: Right.

BERMAN: We'll have to wait and see how much ground she can make up there. Erin, the gender gap here and Vice President Harris' lead among women voters, how do you think the Trump campaign will try to cut into that?

PERRINE: Yeah, you've seen Trump has so far tried to make overtures to female voters. You saw a little bit of that last week when he started talking about IVF and reproductive rights. This is a really major voting bloc in the United States and it's one that has been trending more toward the left, especially on persuadable voters. But women are not a monolithic voting bloc, no voting bloc is. So this is one about identifying your persuadable voters.

And this is the fun, the science, and the business of politics is to sit here and say, who are your persuadable voters? Where are they? What counties do they sit in? Are these swing counties? How are we going to be able to talk to them? How many times do we need to talk to them? Is that a mailer? Is that a phone call? Is it a text message? Is the TV ad? Is it a message to their phone? What are you doing to talk to them and then getting them on their message to turn out in the fashion they like it. This is like where the political science nerd and everybody who works in politics is really gearing up because it's targeting message to the voter right now, so you are able to get them to start voting because ballots are going to start moving very soon in the United States.

BERMAN: Friday. I mean, they're starting to move --

PERRINE: Yeah.

BERMAN: -- within the next 48 hours. Maggie, persuasion for women voters, so the Trump campaign (inaudible) is turnout the men voters, just lean into the advantage you have with men?

[20:40:00]

HABERMAN: I don't think it's either or. I mean, I think that they primarily are looking at boosting their turnout with men, there's no question about that, and you can see it across the board. You do see Trump himself clearly concerned about how abortion is playing as an issue. He has been incredibly reactive on it. He has been all over the place in the last two weeks alone and frankly, over the last couple of years. And you saw him do sort of discrete events like -- I mean, discrete, just a little narrow slice within a larger subsection like moms for liberty. So, you're going to see them do things like that. But no, I don't think that anybody on the Trump campaign reasonably thinks they're going to massively increase his numbers with women.

BERMAN: All right. Maggie Haberman, Ashley Etienne, Erin Perrine, thank you all for being with us tonight. With this race's only scheduled debate between Harris and Trump just days away, we are going to speak with two campaign veterans to discuss how each candidate is preparing for their first-ever -- well, not only their first-ever face off with each other, this is their first-ever meeting with each other. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:45:10]

BERMAN: Tomorrow, Vice President Harris heads to Pittsburgh for a long intense round of weight prep just five days before her first and possibly only debate with the former president, and ABC today released its official rules for the debate, which will include muting microphones when a candidate is not speaking, something the Harris team initially says they did not want. The vice president briefly spoke to reporters today about the debate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Madam Vice President, how is debate prep?

KAMALA HARRIS, (D) VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: So far, so good.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Very briefly. This debate will be the first encounter ever of any kind between Harris and Donald Trump. Sources say he is not changing his prep work from the first debate, meaning there will be no mock debate with a Harris stand-in. Instead, he is having more informal sessions called policy time and quite a bit of it, we understand, this time with ally and former Democratic Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard, who debated Harris in the 2020 Democratic presidential primary. Harris will be debating a stand-in for the former president, someone who not only will be wearing a red tie like the president, but was also the stand-in during Hillary Clinton's mock debate in 2016.

I'm joined now by Hillary Clinton's former Campaign Manager, Robby Mook, and Republican Debate Coach Brett O'Donnell. Nice to see you both, gentlemen. Robby, first to you. The Harris campaign agreed to the ABC format even though they say that having muted microphones will fundamentally disadvantage her. Do you agree, or how do you think the microphones really will impact her in this debate?

ROBBY MOOK, FORMER CLINTON CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Well, I think it would have been helpful to have them unmuted because voters would have heard Donald Trump's rants and comments. And I think it would speak to the kind of unstable character that he is. But I think at the end of the day, it's not going to make an enormous difference. The big question on my mind is what Donald Trump is going to show up to this debate. I think Brett could write on a 3x5 note card in about two minutes, the five things that Donald Trump needs to get across in this debate and the struggle that Trump continues to have is, he can't deliver a coherent message.

And so, this debate is an opportunity for him. He's kind of lost the narrative over the last six months and I think it's incumbent upon him to try to get that back. I know the Harris that's going to show up, she is a -- demonstrated ability to perform well in these debates, but just unclear on Trump.

BERMAN: Brett, we mentioned, this is the first time the two of them we will ever meet at all. How do you think that might impact the moment?

BRETT O'DONNELL, GOP DEBATE COACH: Well, I mean, I don't think it will impact him much, I mean both of them are opponents and I think they're there to do serious business. And so, you after the initial introductions, I think it'll be game on between the two of them. The question mark is, is the debate about personality, or is it about policy? And I think Kamala Harris wants to make it about personality. My guess is she'll be fairly aggressive. She was with Mike Pence in their debate. And if Donald Trump can avoid taking the bait from her and focus on policy and make her defend policies that she has been inconsistent on, and make her own the last four years, then he could have a fairly successful night.

BERMAN: How much do you think he wants to do that deep down inside, BRETT?

O'DONNELL: Well, my guess is from when he began the campaign against her just a few weeks ago, he probably would not like to do that. He'd like to do a bunch more. But I think, if they're serving him well in debate prep, they'll tell him write four words on the top of your pad -- weak, failed, dangerously liberal, and every argument you make should support proving one of those words about Kamala Harris, whether it's her energy policy or economic policy, whatever it has to be, but he should be he focused on policy and proving that label. She has to be defined in this debate. She's only been a candidate for a few weeks and the American public knows virtually nothing about where she would take the country because she hasn't told anybody.

BERMAN: So Robby, Philippe Reines who did debate prep with you all in 2016 for Hillary Clinton, we understand is standing in as Donald Trump in debate prep. How much of a difference do you think that makes having someone seasoned? How good is he, first of all, at doing this? And what do you think they need -- what kind of mindset do you think Harris needs to be in heading into this?

MOOK: Well, Philippe is terrific at this. He put in an enormous amount of effort in 2016 and really did a brilliant job. I got to see a little bit of it in person and I think they were very wise to pick him.

[20:50:00]

It's so important on any campaign, when you're preparing for a debate, to actually rehearse the debate as you want it to go, because these things are all about moments that you've thought about well in advance, you've researched, you have your talking points, and you have a strategy for how to get to that moment that you want to have. We saw Harris in the 2020 Democratic primary with her famous moment with Biden, where she went after him for his comments about working with segregationist Senators back in the day. So we know she can do this, but you cannot land those hits and have those moments unless you've rehearsed them, and that's something that would be troubling for me if I was on Trump's team, as I think he's doing frankly what a lot of candidates want to do and like to do, which is sit around and kind of talk it out.

But you can't -- you can't do proper debate prep that way. And I think that's why you tend to see in these debates, Trump sort of meanders around and he isn't really able to land hits. One thing I would say to Brett's earlier comment, I think Harris is going to spend a lot of time on women's reproductive health policy. And I think there are some really important moments she's going to be able to have around abortion rights, birth control, IVF, and if Trump's not rehearsing those responses in the right way, I think they're going to be pretty weak.

BERMAN: How do you think Trump plays in this TikTok world, Brett, where it's the clips of these debates that end up being shared, certainly by younger voters?

O'DONNELL: Well, one thing that Robby said, I agree with is, debates are about moments. They are about being able to drive a message that's connected to your audience and about those shiny moments that you and the press pay attention to, or people on TikTok or X or whatever the forum might be, that drive the media narrative for days after that debate. So, you do want to have those pre-canned moments, those lines going in, that kind of attract press attention and exact competitive advantage over your opponent. So, you have to practice those moments coming into the debate. BERMAN: For the record, I'm still a Myspace guy. Brett O'Donnell, Robby Mook, glad we could end on a point we all agree with. Thank you all very much.

And a programming reminder, you can catch the full debate, plus post- debate analysis here on CNN. That is next Tuesday at 9:00 p.m. Eastern Time.

All right. Still ahead, we are going to go back to Georgia. Our John Miller has some new reporting just in, specifically the FBI's version of what was known and how far in advance of the suspected school shooter who is now in custody.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:56:45]

BERMAN: We are getting new reporting on the deadly school shooting at Apalachee High School in Winder, Georgia. It's about 50 miles northeast of Atlanta. We have already seen a vigil tonight for the two teachers and two students killed. Authorities say a 14-year-old student will be charged with their murders and we are expecting to hear from authorities just a few minutes from now. Back with us is John Miller, CNN's Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst. John, I know you've been working the phones. What more have you learned since we last spoke?

MILLER: So what's emerged tonight is that the FBI received information at their Threat Operations Center in 2023. So it was May of 2023, they get reports from people who've seen online postings on a particular online platform that's popular with teenagers and gamers, about an individual who says he's going to be doing a school shooting. They get preservation orders, subpoenas, they get the IP address, they trace it to a location in Georgia. They send that to the Atlanta Field Division and to the local authorities in Georgia and say, here is the information on this place where this threat is coming from.

The Jackson County, Georgia Sheriff's Department goes to that location and they interview the parents and they say there are guns in the house and we do have a son. They interview the son who is then a 13- year-old in the eighth grade in Jackson County who says that posting wasn't me. I don't care what anybody says, that's not me. The father says there are guns in the house, but he doesn't have access to them because they're under lock and key, and that they're secure. That individual, the 13-year-old they interviewed is the same individual who is charged now in this shooting.

What happens in the interim as they move from Jackson County to Barrow County, and there's no indication that that information followed them even though it was -- we understand provided to the Jackson County schools and his records may have followed them. What we don't know is whether it was ever included in those records since basically, after the police investigation, it was an unsubstantiated threat.

BERMAN: So we don't know if that ever got to Barrow County, which is the county where the Apalachee High School is and where this incident took place today?

MILLER: Right. And there's -- I mean, what you do see is and it's ironic to say under these circumstances, is a system that was working. People detected this activity online. They reported it to the FBI.

BERMAN: Federal level down to the county level, down to the school

MILLER: Down to the school level, so the wheels turned. But there's no real mechanism that when a family picks up and moves from one county to another in Georgia that that necessarily has a system that that follows them, where there's not a charge or a case brought. So that's what we are seeing at this at this point.

BERMAN: All right, about a minute, we are going to see a news conference from down there. What questions do you still have, where did the gun came from, things like that?

MILLER: Well, it is as the investigation moves forward, we now know the gun has a rifle, not a pistol, and it is shaping up that investigators believe the gun came from the home, which would fit in with the information we just went over. And then of course, we want to know, was there any other threat information today and that will come up again.

BERMAN: All right. Now, we do know that there's a timeline that goes back well over a year.