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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Trump Says He's Not Reconsidering Gaetz As His AG Pick; Trump Taps Dr. Oz To Oversee Medicare And Medicaid; Interview With Sen. Amy Klobuchar (D-MN); Trump Not Backing Down On Gaetz As Controversy Grows; Iowa Trump Voters On What They Hope Comes Next After His Win; Russia: Ukraine Fires U.S.-Made Longer-Range Missiles Into Russia. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired November 19, 2024 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: There's a lot fewer of those 'Z' symbols on buildings on cars going around the city.

At the same time everybody that we've been speaking to here in Russia say, they want the war to end as fast as possible and they want the war to end through negotiations. That's certainly something that we haven't heard in that form before.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: All right. Fred Pleitgen, thank you very much. Live again in Moscow tonight.

Thanks so much to all of you for joining us. See you tomorrow. AC360 starts now.

[20:00:30]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Tonight on 360: The president-elect stands by his choice for attorney general. Even as confidential files, in1cluding an accuser's deposition, are breached by a hacker and may become public.

Also tonight, touting his nine-daytime Emmys, Trump pages Doctor Oz to oversee Medicare and Medicaid, which covers nearly 150 million Americans.

And the Kremlin lowers the bar for using nuclear weapons and says Ukraine fired American missiles deep inside Russia.

Good evening thanks for joining us.

Tomorrow, the House Ethics Committee is expected to discuss the fate of its report on Matt Gaetz, the former Florida congressman who is both accused of having sex with a minor and Donald Trump's choice for attorney general of the United States.

Donald Trump shows no sign of changing his mind. As we first reported last night, he's calling senators who will have to vote on the nomination, including North Dakota's Kevin Cramer standing there next to Elon Musk at today's SpaceX launch in Texas.

The president-elect was asked about Gaetz just a few minutes later.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Mr. President, are you reconsidering the nomination of Matt Gaetz?

DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: No.

REPORTER: How far are you willing to go to get him confirmed?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: As you saw he didn't answer that.

As for Gaetz himself, CNN has learned that he's also been calling senators and will be visiting with some on the Hill tomorrow.

At the same time, some of the confidential material used by the Ethics Committee may be out in the wild somewhere. Multiple sources tell us that someone gained unauthorized access to several documents, including a deposition with a woman who says she had sex with Gaetz when she was 17 years old.

And tonight, the lawyer for two accusers sat down with CNN's Erin Burnett, Joel Leppard told his clients, told the Ethics Committee that Gaetz paid his clients about $10,000.00 for sex over two years, and that there are allegations he believed represent only a fraction of what the committee has learned.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOEL LEPPARD, ATTORNEY FOR TWO ETHICS COMMITTEE WITNESSES: You have to understand that my clients are only two out of the over dozen witnesses that testified I was present for two of those. And so, what I'm telling you is just a fraction of the evidence that's available of the thousands of documents and the 25 subpoenas, 12 witnesses.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: So, that's -- and I guess that's a crucial part of this. The House Ethics Committee is scheduled to make a decision on releasing their full report. Do you think the allegations you're talking about here and detailing, which have to do with your two clients, are a large chunk of their report, or do you think that this is the tip of the iceberg?

LEPPARD: Well, I do think that it's probably the tip of the iceberg.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Again, the president-elect is standing by Gaetz. So is Elon Musk, who posted this about him on social media. Quoting now, "Matt Gaetz has three critical assets that are needed for the AG role. A big brain, a spine of steel, and an ax to grind. He is the Judge Dredd America needs to clean up a corrupt system and put powerful bad actors in prison." "Gaetz," he concludes "Will be our hammer of justice," which may sound like the name of a pro wrestler, but Linda McMahon, who co-founded what would become the WWE wrestling empire, is actually expected to be tapped to become the next Secretary of Education.

Once again tonight, a lot happening both in the open and behind-the- scenes, which is why we start things off with CNN's Kaitlan Collins, anchor of "The Source" at the top of the hour so, Kaitlan, we heard the president-elect saying he's not second guessing his choice of Matt Gaetz. What are you hearing about what's going on behind-the-scenes?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CORRESPONDENT: Well, yes, Anderson, I mean, he's not until he is. That's kind of how things work in Trump's orbit, where he'll stand by someone. We've seen this before, but that doesn't necessarily mean that that will always be the case. Right now it is certainly the case behind-the-scenes.

We've been talking to Trump's allies and advisers all day about this and what this is going to look like. And right now, the president- elect is willing to use his political capital to stand by his pick for the attorney general.

He wants to see him confirmed. He has doubted his chances of actually getting confirmed, because, I mean, he's being told the truth by his advisers as they've been having conversations with Republicans on Capitol Hill.

But right now, Anderson, they are standing behind him. We're seeing Senator JD Vance, who is the vice president-elect to go up with Matt Gaetz and these other nominees to Capitol Hill in the coming days. They're going to be trying to meet with these Republican Senators and trying to convince them to at least give them a chance to consider this nomination, to not be opposed to it right away.

But that comes as were also seeing more Republican senators come out and say, this idea of a recess appointment or sidestepping the Senate confirmation process and having that confirmation hearing is just not going to work with them.

Thom Tillis just said that a few moments ago to reporters on capitol hill, saying that he doesn't believe anyone should want to be confirmed in a high profile position by recess and that the Senate should not, you know get rid of its one responsibility here in terms of vetting these nominees to do so.

[20:05:05]

So, I think that's really the question here, it is not necessarily whether Trump is standing by him, it is whether the Senate Republicans are going to be willing enough to vote for him. And we've heard some skeptical voices at Mar-a-Lago tonight about whether or not that's going to happen.

They have a very clear-eyed view, Anderson, of how this is all shaping out right now.

COOPER: Is the Trump team expecting any pushback on the choices of Mehmet Oz to run -- or oversee Medicare and Medicaid and Linda McMahon to run the Department of Education? COLLINS: We've heard some of them who say, you know, when you look at the slate of picks here, because there are these more controversial nominees that are getting all of the attention right now, it could help the others sail through.

I mean, these are some of these nominees who four years ago or eight years ago, Anderson, would not have had an easy confirmation process. I mean, Trump making his personal attorney, naming him as the deputy attorney general would have been considered controversial a few months ago or a few weeks ago.

But now, given how these dynamics have shaken out, he has shifted the spectrum here and where these senators are operating from and what they're looking at.

With Mehmet Oz, of course, he ran for Senate unsuccessfully in 2022, but he is being tapped to lead a very powerful agency and the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. I mean, it insures about 150 million Americans and it operates under the tent of HHS, which of course, Trump has nominated RFK, Jr. to run.

So if both of those individuals get confirmed, they would be leading figures within that department. And I think that is going to be how you're seeing senators look at this. Because they are deeply familiar with Mehmet Oz, not just because he tried to join that body a few years ago, but he was actually called to a Senate panel about a decade ago, Anderson, where he was grilled by senators on his promotion of weight loss drugs that were not proven to work using his TV personality. And so, they're looking at all of that right now.

But, Anderson, its moving very quickly here as they're trying to finish these other positions. I should note JD Vance has confirmed last night he and Trump were looking and interviewing potential candidates to be the FBI director. That is the clearest signal yet that Trump plans to fire Chris Wray, who still has three years left of his ten-year term, that Trump appointed him to.

COOPER: Kaitlan Collins, thanks very much. We'll see you on "The Source" at the top of the hour. We'll have more on Doctor Oz shortly.

But first, the Gaetz pick and how far the president-elect may be willing to go for it.

Joining us, Republican strategist Shermichael Singleton, former Pennsylvania Republican Congressman Charlie Dent and journalist Gretchen Carlson, co-founder of the organization Lift Our Voices.

I mean, Gretchen, given the kind of drip, drip on this so far and who knows if this thing has been hacked? What may come out? How far do you think the president-elect will go to keep Gaetz?

GRETCHEN CARLSON, JOURNALIST, CO-FOUNDER OF LIFT OUR VOICES: Yes, look, I think the headline in this whole story is being vastly undersold. It's interesting to me that three of Trumps top three picks have sexual misconduct allegations against them. You know, as an advocate for women and girls on these issues and on behalf of so many women, we find it highly offensive that that's not an automatic disqualifier off the bat. And the idea that that can just be brushed aside and never mentioned, and that Matt Gaetz is going to be a hammer for justice. Well that's why releasing this report is so important.

There are survivors of sexual misconduct in Congress. So I'm hoping that they have a conscience along with other people.

You know, you have Senators Grassley and Cornyn, Republicans on Senate Judiciary, which is responsible for investigating these appointees or nominations, they're asking for the House Ethics report to be released and if it's not tomorrow, look, there are other ways this could happen.

It could be leaked. And it could also be shared in secret over at the House if the senators just went over to look at it.

COOPER: Congressman, do you think if the House Ethics chair, you were the former House Ethics chair, do you think if the committee's meeting proceeds as scheduled tomorrow, that the Gaetz report will be released? I mean, we should remind people the Ethics Committee is pretty unique. Its evenly split between Republicans and Democrats.

CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, hard to say what the Committee will do. I don't think the speaker did, Michael Guest, the chairman of the committee who's a good man, put him in a tough spot. But look, this report, I believe, does need to be released. Ordinarily when a member of Congress resigns because of a scandal, they usually go away quietly.

They go about the business of reconstructing their lives. You know relationships with family members and their reputations. They don't get elevated to the attorney general of the United States, the top law enforcement officer of the country.

And we have, as Gretchen pointed out, the United States Senate as part of their official record and official duties in this confirmation process want to see this report before they vote on this really important position.

COOPER: Congressman, you do know you are referring to a time when there was shame.

DENT: Well, yes, I understand that, Anderson, but still look, Matt Gaetz -- there are ways to get this report out if the Committee chooses not to send it out.

[20:10:06]

A member can go to the floor of the House and make a motion essentially to have it released from the committee, and then it would be there would be under the vote of the full House. And given the fact that Matt Gaetz doesn't have a whole lot of friends in the House of Representatives, I suspect that motion would pass overwhelmingly, so I think it would behoove everybody if they just simply released it.

I was chairman of the committee. There is plenty of precedent for releasing reports of former members, one for sexual misconduct in 1990, the individual was involved with a sex with a 16-year-old and the report was released after he resigned and there are other cases like that.

So I don't understand what the big fuss is.

COOPER: Shermichael, I mean, Elon Musk is saying it's great that Gaetz has a "axe to grind." I mean, is that a great quality to have in an attorney general?

SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, look, I think the president-elect has been pretty clear about what he expects out of many of the individuals he's appointed, and that is to completely shake up many of these agencies, particularly the Department of Justice, based on his experience, his legal experiences that is, and he's pretty been pretty clear that he believes federal prosecutors have too much influence, too much power, and a significant amount of discretion that he would like to see changed and limited and I think a lot of Americans would probably agree with that.

As a political strategist, however, I'm looking at this from two different perspectives --

COOPER: What -- but you think a lot of Americans would agree that it's good to have an axe to grind?

SINGLETON: I think a lot of Americans would agree that the Department of Justice needs to radically be changed, Anderson.

I mean, I think if you found yourself prosecuted on trumped up charges, let's say you're not a wealthy individual or a powerful individual, such as the president-elect, you would probably look at the criminal justice system and say, this system does not work for the vast majority of people particularly if you're poor. That's my point, with that said --

COOPER: But do you think Gaetz is being sent there to cure the ills of the criminal justice system as it relates to people who are underserved and can't afford attorneys, which is certainly a valid point that yes, obviously, you know, if you can afford an attorney, you have a better chance than somebody gets a public defender who are overworked and understaffed. But I don't think that's what he's aiming to do. Do you?

SINGLETON: Well, I think the president-elect's premise is pretty clear on this point, radically transform and shake up the agency. And I think a part of shaking up the agency would be indeed limiting the power of some of those federal prosecutors who have a significant amount of power, which oftentimes go unchecked.

And so, we could argue whether or not Gaetz or someone else is the best person to move forward with that agenda. But I think the premise of the agenda remains consistent, whether its Gaetz or ultimately someone else who's confirmed by the US Senate.

COOPER: Congressman, just to respond to that, I mean, as somebody who served is an axe to grind, a quality you want in an attorney general?

DENT: No, absolutely not. In fact, you want an attorney general who's going to exercise measured judgment and discretion. You know this is -- these are really -- this is a really powerful position and you need somebody there who's not going there to torch the place, to burn it down.

I mean, sure, the Department of Justice needs reform, like so many of other departments do, but we have people there who -- I just can't have somebody in there who does have an axe to grind and wants to destroy the place.

I mean they're upset about what? That Trump is being prosecuted over his handling of classified documents? Had I done that, I'd have been taken out in handcuffs as a member of Congress. I mean that's what I'm trying to understand. I mean, what's the problem here?

COOPER: Gretchen, it does seem for, you know, obviously the former president, now the president-elect has railed about the weaponization of the FBI, the Department of Justice. I mean, setting up Matt Gaetz to be the attorney general with an axe to grind. I mean, that is a weapon.

CARLSON: That serves right into Trump's dialogue about what he was going to do, right? And we've said from the start, at least I have that I believe everything he says.

He said, we are going to get rid of the enemy within and he feels he was wrongly accused and prosecuted, and he has somehow convinced a heck of a lot of voters that that was the case.

So, I guess he's looking at this like an eye for an eye, he's going to put somebody in there and get his justice. But I still go back to what I said earlier is that we should be discussing what disqualifies Gaetz from the beginning, which is this sexual misconduct charge potentially and the report should be released.

COOPER: Shermichael, I mean, if the Gaetz nomination does get pulled or he is defeated in the Senate, is there a political cost to the president-elect? I mean, doesn't really -- I guess, in the past there might have been, but it doesn't seem like there would be with this. Do you think so?

SINGLETON: No, I don't think so. I mean, like, Kaitlan Collins at the top of the show advised or reported how many of the advisers, I should say have advised the president-elect on how this may go. He's clearly standing behind Gaetz as it currently stands. He has the political capital and the momentum, I would argue, to do so.

But they're also advising the president-elect, there is a good chance that this may not move forward the way we want.

[20:15:05] I'm almost certain if they're good advisers and many of them absolutely are. They're experienced political practitioners, they're likely already looking at other individuals to present to the president-elect to say, hey, here's some alternatives in case we do lose this battle. That's what a good adviser should do.

But if the president-elect said, hey, this is my guy, I want to stand by him at least for now. Then those advisers, their job is to make those calls to those Republican senators and attempt to articulate the president-elect's case.

And if those staffers are saying, well we hear you, but this is what our bosses are saying in the Senate, then they're going to report that news back to the president and ultimately say, Mr. President, here are our options here, what decision do you want to make?

COOPER: All right everybody, stay tuned. More on the president-elect's choices. Next, including Dr. Mehmet Oz to oversee Medicare And Medicaid. Senator Amy Klobuchar joins us as well.

And later, John King's "All Over The Map" series returns. He's talking to Iowans who initially said they would not vote for Trump, but are now, glad they did. More on that ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:20:23]

COOPER: We're talking tonight about the people Donald Trump wants to head up some of the most important positions in the Cabinet in his administration. Matt Gaetz as attorney general, Fox News host Pete Hegseth as Defense, Tulsi Gabbard to be director of National Intelligence, Fox host Sean Duffy to lead the Department of Transportation, and now another TV personality, Dr. Mehmet Oz, to run the centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services.

According to the Kaiser Family Foundation, Medicare and Medicaid cover close to 150 million Americans with a combined budget of about $1.4 trillion, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

CMS oversees both as well as the Affordable Health Care Act Marketplaces. Now, in the first Trump administration, Dr. Oz served on the president's Council on Sports, Fitness, and Nutrition. He has no experience running a large government or private organization. He was very popular on daytime TV for a time, and in the early days of the pandemic touted the drug hydroxychloroquine which doesn't work against COVID-19.

Columbia University cut ties, you may remember, with him several years after a group of colleagues accused him of manifesting "an egregious lack of integrity by promoting quack treatments and cures in the interest of personal financial gain."

This came after he was chastised at a Senate hearing for hyping weight loss products with language like this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. MEHMET OZ, AMERICAN TV SHOW HOST AND PHYSICIAN: ... this little bean --

Now I've got the number one miracle in a bottle.

How can I burn fat?

This miracle pill.

CLAIRE MCCASKILL, FORMER US SENATOR: Doctor Oz, I will have some tough questions for you today about your role.

SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN): Did the deceptive practices then coming out of that change how you've conducted your shows?

MCCASKILL: Why would you say that something is a miracle in a bottle?

OZ: My job, I feel on the show, is to be a cheerleader for the audience.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: At the same hearing, Dr. Oz elaborated on why he touted some of the products he did despite the lack of scientific evidence they actually worked.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OZ: I actually do personally believe in the items that I talk about in the show. I passionately study them. I recognize that oftentimes they don't have the scientific muster to present as fact, but nevertheless I would give my audience the advice I give my family all the time, and I have given my family these products, specifically the ones you mentioned. Then I'm comfortable with that part.

Where I do think I've made it more difficult for the FTC is that an intent to engage viewers, I use flowery language. I used language that was very passionate, but it ended up not being helpful, but incendiary and it provided fodder for unscrupulous advertisers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: One of the senators you heard there doing the questioning was Minnesota Democrat Amy Klobuchar. She joins us now. Thanks so much for being with us. First --

KLOBUCHAR: Thanks so much, Anderson.

COOPER: What do you make of the choice of Dr. Oz to oversee Medicare And Medicaid? I mean, in normal times, I guess it would be like the lead but given the other folks who are being, you know, Matt Gaetz and Hegseth and others, how does this compare?

KLOBUCHAR: Well, you know, we are getting a lot of TV personalities. So, I know you've got your name in there for maybe like FBI or something like that.

COOPER: Yes, that can't happen.

KLOBUCHAR: I just think people should have hearings and you get to the bottom of all this and that was a way-back moment remembering Claire and I cross-examining Dr. Oz about some of these claims.

And this is a very serious and intense job, as you can imagine running these major programs, which are a lifeline for so many people. And there are all kinds of very intense issues when it comes to what's covered, what's paid for. And so, I've worked with that agency a number of times.

And for one thing, let me start with what I said at the beginning, you need hearings for these people, because that's when you find out what their views are on Medicaid. What are their views? What do they think? This is the way people get their assisted living paid for, things like that.

So I think it's very important that we have these hearings and figure this out.

COOPER: There are some you know, people who have thought you know, maybe Matt Gaetz is sort of a sacrificial lamb that everybody will be focused on that and not have the bandwidth or the ammunition to go after and try to look at the records of, and really put up a fight against the nomination of some of the other, you know Hegseth or Tulsi Gabbard.

What can Democrats actually do? I mean, how much can they, you know, presidents deserve to have the people they want to have around them. How much leverage do the Democrats have?

KLOBUCHAR: Well, it's not just Democrats. It's Republicans as well. If you look at the pushback on Matt Gaetz, you have people like John Cornyn asking for that Ethics report. You have Lisa Murkowski voicing concerns. You have a conservative like Kevin Cramer from North Dakota saying that it's a long shot.

And remember, they have the votes now and they are going to have to make a decision if these are the people in the case of Matt Gaetz that you want running an agency, the Department of Justice, front line law enforcement, 115,000 people charged with going after internet scams and charged with going after fentanyl rings.

[20:25:22]

And so, that's why this is a pretty serious job for everyone, not just Democrats. But of course, we must have these hearings. We must ask the questions, and we must do the checks on people's backgrounds.

That's why I am so pissed off about this Ethics report. Do they really, when the speaker says it shouldn't be released, and I hope its released tomorrow are they asking the Senate to then recreate with precious taxpayer money, recreate that entire report. What does that mean? I guess we have the same FBI people asking the same questions, going to the same witnesses to get to the bottom of all of these allegations involving Matt Gaetz.

COOPER: Do you think Matt Gaetz, I mean, do you think he actually -- do you think he can actually make it through?

KLOBUCHAR: I don't believe so. I think this is one where you've started to see Republicans standing up, but Democrats have a clear role here. And we also have a very important role when it comes to next year when we look at some of these tax breaks for the wealthiest people and what that's going to mean for the debt.

And are we going to make sure that the prescription drug benefit, which is so important right now to our seniors that that is actually implemented?

We have all kinds of things we are going to do, but I do want to stress when it comes to these nominees that the Republicans are going to have to take responsibility for this and look at these people carefully.

This doesn't mean we oppose every single one of them. I predict we won't. I think there will be some Democrats who will vote for some, and they won't vote for others.

But there's some that are so egregious, like Matt Gaetz, that you see this outcry, but whatever it is, we must have hearings and get to the bottom because these people are going to be managing major, major groups of employees. Yes, that's important. But also things that matter to the American people, matter to our veterans, matter to anyone that's on prescription drugs and they want to make sure they're getting a good price.

So we've got to remember that this is truly about our job by the Constitution, advice and consent, we take it seriously.

COOPER: Yes, Senator Klobuchar, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

KLOBUCHAR: It's great to be on. Thanks, Anderson.

COOPER: Joining me now is CNN senior political commentator Adam Kinzinger.

Congressman, you just heard Senator Klobuchar's take on the Gaetz nomination and how it may play out. What do you see happening, particularly with that Ethics report?

ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, look it's I've still got to imagine the ethics report makes its way out. I'm assuming the Ethics Committee is going to take a vote. Obviously, they're split even. It would take one Republican to agree with the Democrats to release it.

But again, as the senator was saying, I mean, they can just recreate that. But it's going to take a lot of work and you're putting the victims through this again, too which is another big thing.

So I have a hard time seeing how Gaetz gets through. I think Donald Trump truly wants him in. This idea of a sacrificial lamb I don't think that's the case. Keep in mind, Matt Gaetz resigned from Congress, so he gave up that job for this, but the problem is it's this fire hose effect.

There are so many bad nominees to these positions that I think unfortunately, the Republicans probably only have it in them to take down one, maybe two, possibly three, but not all the bad nominations and that may be intentional.

COOPER: Is it clear to you what qualifications Dr. Oz would have to oversee Medicare and Medicaid for approximately 150 million Americans? I know the president-elect's press release mentioned the TV show, the daytime Emmys. Obviously, just like with Hegseth. He mentioned, you know, his number one book sales.

You know, those obviously don't have anything to do with the day-to- day running of a massive organization.

KINZINGER: No. Absolutely not and keep in mind, Medicare and Medicaid obviously is very complex. He's going to be asked a lot of questions. We had oversight on this in the committee. I was on in Energy and Commerce.

And I mean, the head of CMS was asked a lot of very detailed questions, and they had to have a lot of very detailed answers and this is again, what people that live in poverty and also senior citizens rely on day-to-day and they're literally putting at the helm somebody who's on television, nothing against people on television.

But to go run CMS because you recommend that people eat four servings of vegetables a day and you know, honey from their local bees and not, you know, bees from Wagner's or Wegmans, whatever he called it. I mean, that doesn't make you qualified.

And, you know, this is it's almost like government feels like a big joke, like, LOL, you know Elon Musk names the Department of Government Efficiency, DOGE because of Dogecoin giggle and you know, its -- unfortunately there's going to be real effects for real people.

COOPER: What do you make of Elon Musk's role in all this? I mean, it's yes, what do you make of it?

KINZINGER: Look, it's strange. I mean, I totally see why it's the case. You know, look, people with power and money have been you know close to presidents in the past. It's so, of course, you can kind of see it from that perspective.

But look, this is all -- Donald Trump likes being around famous people. You know Elon Musk is famous. He's powerful he's influential. Donald Trump likes that. I don't know if this ends well. I have a hard time seeing this ending very well by the way.

[20:30:27] COOPER: Adam Kinzinger, thanks so much. I appreciate it.

Up next, our John King goes back to Iowa for an All Over the Map reunion. Republican voters that he met during the primary season talk about their votes, their feelings about the President-elect's character and what they expect him to do once he's in office.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:35:00]

COOPER: In his victory speech, the President-elect claimed a, quote, "unprecedented and powerful mandate". Now that the popular vote count is more clear, it's a less sweeping victory perhaps, but a victory nonetheless.

John King recently talked with a group of Republican voters in Iowa. He met them during primary season last year for the first installment of his All Over the Map series. Not all of them were fans of Trump at the time, and recently John touched base again for his first post- election All Over the Map report to hear what they expect from four more years of Trump.

Here's John.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

SHANEN EBERSOLE, IOWA VOTER: There's some right at the gate right now.

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Shanen Ebersole loves her land and her cows rain or shine.

EBERSOLE: Sometimes if you want to play cowboy, you got to do cowboy things like standing in the rain.

KING (voice-over): Her vote for Donald Trump, a vote to protect her way of life.

EBERSOLE: The vast majority of people who voted for Trump are not the far-right crazies. That is not who we are. We're simple Americans who want to live our lives and do our jobs and make our own choices in our own homes. And we want that for our neighbors who feel differently than us too.

KING (voice-over): You have to be an optimist to run a family cattle ranch. And Ebersole says she hopes Trump sees his mandate as the economy and the border. Hopes he understands a lot of his voters didn't like all that campaign talk about the enemy within and retribution.

EBERSOLE: We have spoken. We are not letting him be a bully, but we want him to stand firm.

KING (voice-over): She is more bullish about Trump now than when we first met. Back then, Trump had competition in the Iowa caucuses, and Ebersole wanted a Republican who could be both president and role model.

EBERSOLE: He didn't bring us together because of the divisiveness, because of my liberal friends that were literally scared for their safety.

KING (voice-over): But when Trump rolled to the nomination, Ebersole's choice was easy because of Biden-Harris farm and climate policies. Trump won 75 percent of the vote here in rural Ringgold County.

EBERSOLE: We felt as though Washington and the far edges of our country were governing the rest of Middle America.

BETSY SARCONE, IOWA VOTER: OK, come over here.

KING (voice-over): Betsy Sarcone is another now proud Trump voter who initially wanted something very different.

KING: So how did you get from, I can't take it. I'll vote for Biden to --

SARCONE: Yes.

KING: -- I'm going to vote for Donald Trump and I'm actually relieved and happy about it.

SARCONE: I think I've come to the conclusion that I don't love Donald Trump as a person. But I do think that he is right for the country right now and that he is going to chart a different course than we're currently on.

KING (voice-over): Sarcone lives in the Des Moines suburbs, says her real estate business is slow, and she hopes Trump somehow helps. Lower grocery prices also high on her wish list.

SARCONE: I'm a mom, single mom, of three kids. So that does make a huge difference in my life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mama Mia (ph).

KING (voice-over): Sarcone finds some of Trump's Cabinet picks disappointing, but she frames it this way. She could not support Vice President Harris, so now, she thinks she has to be patient with a president-elect whose calling card is unpredictable.

SARCONE: The Kristi Noem, the Matt Gaetz, I'm not necessarily excited about it. Worried. I wouldn't say I'm worried. I voted for change as did the majority of the people, and that's what we're going to get. So I don't think worrying about it every day is going to do me any good.

KING (voice-over): The trump won the popular vote emboldens his most fervent supporters. People like Chris Mudd.

CHRIS MUDD, IOWA VOTER: I think it's important that we round up every illegal and ship them out. And we have to come -- we have to figure out a way to get them back to work. I do believe that we do need immigration. A country needs immigration, it just needs to be legal. KING: What would you say to Democrats who say that they are literally fearful? They -- that they think that mass deportations are mean spirited or they think his ads about, you know, transgender Americans were mean. What would you say to them?

MUDD: I would say get over it. You know, there's -- I don't believe that there's anything to be scared of.

KING (voice-over): Mudd owns Midwest Solar, a startup that benefited from Biden clean energy incentives. His vote for Trump could hurt his business.

MUDD: It's possible, but like I've said since I started talking to you, I sell value. I'm selling, saving money. I'm not selling the green energy side of the business, I'm selling value.

KING (voice-over): Some big solar jobs require parts made in China. But again, Mudd says Trump should go full steam ahead with trade tariffs.

MUDD: Most of our stuff is tariff free. So I want to see more products and services get built in this country. I want to see our pharmaceuticals get produced here instead of in China. I think that we need an American economy that's building things, creating things.

KING (voice-over): Trump's critics call it sloganeering, but the America First thing echoes in the small cities and rural outposts where Trump ran strongest.

EBERSOLE: Why are we bringing Argentinian beef in? Why are we bringing New Zealand and Australian beef in, and then exporting some of our beef? Why don't we first just feed our beef to our Americans?

[20:40:03]

KING (voice-over): Maisie (ph) helps keep the cows on track in the pastures. Tia (ph) is a show cow. So grooming is an everyday chore.

EBERSOLE: Let me live my life in the middle of nowhere, where there's more cows than there are people. DoorDash isn't a thing. Pizza delivery is not a thing. You can't even get pizza delivered.

Hey, mamas.

KING (voice-over): Ebersole's hope is that Trump changes a lot in Washington. And leaves her happy place just as it is.

EBERSOLE: I just stand here and watch my cows and enjoy it.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

COOPER: John King joins us now. I said it before, the first time you met with her, that her farm is beautiful.

KING (on-camera): It is.

COOPER: You've -- it's great that you've been in, you know, such frequent communication. How much has changed?

KING (on-camera): Well, the biggest thing among the Trump voters, both of the women you saw in that piece were Haley supporters and yet, they came home to Trump. They say they couldn't vote for Harris, they thought she was too liberal.

Betsy Sarcone originally was going to vote for Biden. This is what has changed the most. This is what, right there, the majority -- not majority vote, Donald Trump is falling, just majority, but the victory in the popular vote.

Sometimes, Anderson, you would meet Trump voters who said, I have to vote for him because I can't vote for them, right? They're too liberal. In Shanen Ebersole's case, they don't understand the farm that she has, like the climate policies. Washington tells her what to do, never comes and asks.

Now that Trump has won the popular vote, now that they realize they have a lot of company, they're much more proud about it. They are much more emboldened about voting for Trump and that makes them talk about his mandate.

Now, they have some limits to that. Most of them say, you know, yes, have mass deportations and then create a system to let people come back in and work. They're not anti-immigration. They want legal immigration.

Yes, cut taxes. Yes, shake up Washington. They don't like this enemy within stuff and the retribution stuff, but just their tone. There used to be people say, yes, I'm going to vote for Trump. They, you know, kind of looking around. Is this OK to say here? Now they're like, yes, I voted for Trump and I'm proud of it.

COOPER: And did they think the mandate isn't up to have -- so, you know, I mean, do they have an opinion on some of these -- the characters he's proposed?

KING (on-camera): That part is interesting. Betsy Sarcone in that piece said, oh, Matt Gaetz, oh, Kristi Noem. I was texting a little bit today about RFK and the Dr. Oz appointment. Even Chris Mudd, the strong Trump supporter. He's been with Trump from the beginning said I'm not a huge fan of Dr. Oz, but here's what they say about it.

They voted for him to shake up Washington and they're going to give him grace with his picks. It doesn't mean they'll support every one of them. I think this is the big test. They are pumped up right now. Trump supporters are pumped up.

They won. He won the popular vote. He won every one of the battleground states. They are pumped up and they are on a high and they say, give him a chance. The women essentially say, I'm not going to make the mistake I made first time.

I'm not going to pay attention every day because if I pay attention every day, my blood pressure goes up. So I'm going to give him his Matt Gaetz for now. I'll give him his RFK for now. I'll give him his doctor. But remember, it's the transition.

I think the test is to go back to them in six months and a year when those people are actually in government. Do they perform? That's the key. They're high on now. They say Trump should get his picks. We'll see what happens when they're actually doing hard jobs.

COOPER: All right, John King, thanks very much.

Coming up, the Kremlin says Ukraine launched U.S.-made longer-range missiles into Russia for the first time today. Fred Pleitgen is in Moscow. He speaks to the residents about the shift in Russia's nuclear response.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:47:30]

COOPER: A major escalation of Russia's war against Ukraine now in its 1,000th day. U.S. officials confirmed to CNN that Ukraine for the first time launched U.S.-made longer-range missiles into Russia days after President Biden gave the green light.

The missiles have a range of almost 200 miles. Russia said Ukraine fired six ballistic missiles. Both countries gave conflicting assessments as to the damage. The attack came as Vladimir Putin sent an unmistakable warning to the West about the bar for using nuclear weapons.

Fred Pleitgen has more.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): After firing half a dozen U.S. supplied ATACMS missiles deep into Russia overnight, Ukraine's president was coy when asked about the strikes.

We now have ATACMS and we will use them, he said. Moscow up in arms, claiming Ukraine targeted military installations in Southwestern Russia overnight. The foreign minister ripping into the Biden administration.

The fact that ATACMS were used repeatedly tonight in the Bryansk region is of course a signal that they want escalation, and it's impossible to use these high tech missiles without the Americans. And Putin has spoken about this many times.

And now Putin has reacted breaking news on Kremlin control TV after the Russian president signed an order changing the country's nuclear doctrine. The use of Western missiles for strikes into the strategic depths of Russia means direct involvement of NATO in the war, the host says. And now, Moscow's hands are untied.

Among the changes, the Russians now consider attacks by non-nuclear nations, like Ukraine, with the help of nuclear nations, like the U.S., worthy of a nuclear response, at least on paper. PLEITGEN: The spokesman for the Kremlin says the reason why the Russians decided to update their nuclear doctrine is so potential adversaries of Russia know that retaliation will be inevitable if Russia is attacked.

(through translation): We're with American channel CNN. Can we? OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translation): OK.

PLEITGEN (through translation): This morning, your president, Vladimir Putin, signed an update to Russia's nuclear doctrine. What do you think about it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translation): What is there to think about? What kind of response can there be? Only this kind.

PLEITGEN (through translation): He has greatly expanded the possibility of using nuclear weapons. Do you think this is a good idea?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translation): What should our president do? He has to think of something. We need to scare someone.

PLEITGEN: Do you think that the threat of the use of nuclear weapons has increased now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think they will do it. It sounds like mad people. No, they are not mad people. They are very clever. Not mad.

[20:50:09]

PLEITGEN (voice-over): Russia's move to change its nuclear posture comes exactly on the 1,000th day of the war in Ukraine, as the U.S. is trying to help keep the badly outgunned Ukrainians in the fight, now allowing Kyiv to (INAUDIBLE) some of the most powerful weapons they've been given.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

COOPER: And Fred Pleitgen joins us now from Moscow. How are American officials responding to this updated Russian doctrine?

PLEITGEN (on-camera): Hi there, Anderson. The American officials are saying that they are, quote, "unsurprised" by this new Russian change in this doctrine. In fact, they say that rhetoric around all this has been building up over the past couple of weeks.

And, you know, indeed, we have been seeing a campaign by the Kremlin essentially trying to dissuade the Biden administration from making the decision that it has now made to allow the Ukrainians to use those weapons to strike deep into Russian territory.

More importantly, even the officials saying that they have not detected any movement in Russia's nuclear forces or a change in posture. The Russians for their part, however, are saying that they believe this completely changes the nature of this entire war in Ukraine, making it essentially a confrontation between Russia and the West, Russia and the United States. Anderson?

COOPER: Fred Pleitgen, thanks so much.

The latest episode of "All There Is," my podcast about grief and loss, just got posted wherever you get your podcasts. My guest is writer Andrew Sullivan, who talks about what suffering and loss shows us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:56:07]

COOPER: An all new episode of "All There Is", my podcast about grief and loss, is available right now. You can listen by pointing your phone's camera at the QR code at the bottom of your screen and follow the link that pops up.

This week's guest is podcaster and writer Andrew Sullivan. His mom died recently after a lifetime of struggling with mental illness. And we talk about the complicated grief he feels over that and his experiences as a gay man in the early 1990s at the height of the AIDS epidemic.

Here's part of our conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

COOPER: What year did you find out that you were HIV positive?

ANDREW SULLIVAN, PODCASTER AND WRITER: Ninety three. There were four guys that I knew and became really fond of who died, and my best friend died. His name was Patrick May (ph). He was from the panhandle of Florida, big southern family. Of course, wasn't even out to his family as a gay person when he found out he had AIDS.

Patrick died at 31. He took his ashes to this little, extremely conservative southern town, and he poured them into the bay where he used to swim. He had three brothers, and as we put the ashes in, one of his brothers said, I'm going in.

And then all of us jumped into the water. And as I was in the water, I could see his ashes in the water around me. That was helpful. It was beautiful. My friend Brad, who I dated for a while and died, his parents didn't come to the funeral.

People didn't come to the funerals of their sons. And that creates a whole other level of grief. The grief that you felt, you kind of at that point put it off because you had too much to do. You had to be there for people. It did completely remind you that only one thing matters. It got rid of everything else. Career, money, status, any of that.

COOPER: And that one thing that mattered was?

SULLIVAN: Being with other people and loving them. You know, that's -- it's Christ's core message. I have one, just one, just -- I have one thing to tell you. Love one another as I've loved you. That's it. That's the one commandment. And I still feel an intense solidarity with all those people who died.

COOPER: Did you think you would die in 93, 94, 95?

SULLIVAN: I thought I wouldn't live past 35. Because no one did. And then I started the regimen, the new regimen of drugs, which was insane. It was 32 pills a day and it made you unbelievably sick. And then I had to quit my job at the New Republic.

And then I discovered that my viral load was zero. And I was going to live. And to some extent, you know, I got really upset about younger generations because they really don't give a damn. But I was -- part of it was like, well, that's what we were fighting for, right? We were fighting for them not to have to worry about any of this stuff.

And I think the other thing that I took from that is we should not become obsessed with what we've lost. Because you got to live. And life is right there in front of you, and the whole point of surviving this was to live. And they would not want you to sit around moping forever. They wouldn't.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

COOPER: It's Andrew Sullivan. You can hear more about him in the latest edition of new of "All There Is". It's available right now wherever you get your podcast. You can also hear it in our online grief community CNN.com/allthereisonline. You can listen to all the podcasts there.

You'll be able to watch the full video version of this episode and all the recent episodes there as well and can connect with me and others living with grief, leaving comments and -- of your own and share your own experiences. That's at CNN.com/allthereisonline.

The video version of the interview will also be on the CNN YouTube channel later tonight. I hope it makes you feel a little less lonely in your grief. Thanks for watching. I'll see you tomorrow.

The news continues. The Source of Kaitlan Collins starts right now.