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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Early Indications Suggest a Russian Anti-Aircraft System May Have Downded Passenger Jet; Trump Floats US Territorial Expansion in Christmas Message; Trump Teases U.S. Expansion Into Panama, Greenland And Canada; Vigil For Woman Fatally Burned On Subway; Suspect Charged With Murder; Bird Flu Kills More Than Half The Big Cats At A Washington Sanctuary; Fears And Concerns Grow Over Spread Of Bird Flu; New Tornado Watch Issued For Portions Of Louisiana, Texas. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired December 26, 2024 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: Thanks for joining us, AC360 starts now.
[20:00:42]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360. Did Russian missile fire take down this airliner? Russia says birds were to blame. Airplane parts peppered with holes could tell a different, far more ominous story.
Also tonight, the president-elect acting territorial staking Christmas claims on Greenland, Canada and the Panama Canal, which belong to other countries or are other countries.
Later, how some of nature's mightiest predators, big cats fell prey themselves to the horrible killer that is bird flu as it moves through birds and cattle and now felines, big and small. Are people next?
Good evening, Jim Sciutto here sitting in again for Anderson.
Tonight, 29 people, including two children owe their lives to a pair of pilots who nursed a badly wounded, nearly unflyable airliner across a large body of water, then somehow managed to put the plane down in such a way and in such a place that spared the lives on the ground and saved so many, miraculously on board.
This is the moment the twin-engine Embraer 190 geared down, nose down, crash landed. You see the billowing smoke just short of an airfield in Kazakhstan on the Caspian Sea. Azerbaijan Airlines flight J2 8243 ended up there after something terrible happened en route from Baku to Grozny in Russian Chechnya. What that something was remains unclear.
Signs, however, suggest whatever happened damaged systems on board. Which flight crews use to maintain directional control. This is video from on board.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MALE PASSENGER: Allahu akbar. Allahu. Allahu akbar. Allahu akbar. Allah (END VIDEO CLIP)'
SCIUTTO: The man was reciting a Muslim prayer, a declaration of faith. We do not know whether he survived. In all, at least 38 of 67 on board were killed. And though Russian officials are blaming a bird strike, pieces of wreckage covered in punctures suggest the possibility of shrapnel entering the fuselage from the outside.
Tonight, a US official tells CNN that early indications suggest a Russian anti-aircraft missile may be to blame.
Again, there is a lot to this story. We still have yet to learn and much to talk about tonight. In a moment. More from our Pentagon correspondent, CNN military analyst Mark Hertling and aerospace analyst Miles O'Brien join us.
First, CNN's Nadia Bashir.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NADIA BASHIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): This is the moment an Azerbaijani plane attempted an emergency landing, bursting into flames upon impact. Rescuers rushed to the scene, extinguishing the fire that engulfed the front of the plane and pulling out dazed survivors from the wreckage. Out of 67 people on board, including crew, at least 38 died. Remarkably, 29 people, including two children, survived and were taken to hospitals.
Questions swirled on why the plane, which took off from the Azerbaijani capital, Baku enroute to Grozny in Russia, diverted to Kazakhstan. FlightRadar24 shows the plane flying across the Caspian Sea and circling in the Kazakh city of Aktau before the crash, in a pattern, an aviation expert says indicates loss of flight control systems.
The crash came shortly after drone strikes hit Southern Russia. And while investigators say they are exploring all scenarios, multiple Azerbaijani sources have told Reuters that the plane was hit by Russian air defenses. Video verified by Reuters reveals a rare glimpse into the last moments on board the flight. Oxygen masks down as the camera tilts to the window, showing damage to the wing.
Then, in another geolocated social media video, the plane appears to nosedive. In the resulting explosion, the plane fuselage is broken into parts, with its rear half miraculously landing almost intact, but upturned. Parts of the plane scattered across a wide radius. Bodies seen covered in blue blankets.
Russia and Azerbaijan evacuated their injured citizens as families in Baku waited to see if their loved ones had survived. For Azerbaijan, it is a time of mourning.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[20:05:19] BASHIR (on camera): And Jim, it really is a deeply difficult moment for the family members of those who were killed on board the Azerbaijan Airlines flight, but it is remarkable that there were even survivors following this fatal crash.
And now, of course, the authorities in Azerbaijan and those connected with the crash will continue their work to examine the evidence as to what led to this crash. And we are hearing calls for a full investigation being echoed by officials at NATO -- Jim.
SCIUTTO: Nadia Bashir, thanks so much. With more now on the US assessment, I'm joined by CNN Pentagon correspondent, Oren Liebermann. So, the US believes, according to your reporting, that this was most likely a Russian missile.
OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Initial indications indicate to the US that that's what happened here.
A Russian anti-aircraft system of some sort was fired and struck the Azerbaijan Airlines flight. And then we saw the results of some of that horrific video. The crash there. It wouldn't take much of a missile to down an aircraft like this for all of the power they have. They are still very delicate in any sort of puncture, any, any explosion nearby could have the disastrous results we saw there.
SCIUTTO: Now, the US has tremendous intelligence gathering capabilities, specifically attuned to missile launches. They have satellites, as you know better than me, that can detect launches anywhere on the globe, as they did quite quickly in the wake of the MH17 strike, which they determined was a Russian missile that took down that Malaysian passenger jet. We can assume, I imagine, that eyes were pointed in the direction of this at this time.
LIEBERMANN: Especially with the Ukraine fight happening not that far away. The US has kept a very close eye on this. I don't know for certain that it's satellite imagery and satellite detection systems that picked up on this, they're able to pick up on the heat track of a missile. It's possible it might even be probable that they were able to detect that because of the heat signature, a missile launch would leave behind. We'll look to learn to learn more about that. And if that would indicate what sort of system was used to essentially shoot down an aircraft here.
SCIUTTO: And do they have a sense of what kind of, I mean, there are multiple -- Russia has multiple air defense systems, some designed to take down missiles, some designed to take down aircraft or both. Do they have a sense of what kind?
LIEBERMANN: Not yet, at least not that I've heard. There's a whole spectrum of systems that that this could have been the longer range systems and S-300 and S-400. We have seen those on the Ukraine battlefield. There's also much more shorter range localized systems even perhaps if the plane itself was lower, something shoulder mounted a surface to air missile launched from a shoulder could have done something like this. It is worth noting that in the hours before the crash, in what looks like a likely shootdown here, there was a Ukrainian drone attack in Southern Russia and defense experts who have monitored this have said Russian air defenses were active. So it's very possible here that it was either a case of mistaken identity or an overactive Russian air defense that may have shot this down. The US official I spoke with said this, if it turns out to be this, is an indication of poorly trained Russian units who are incapable of defending against Ukrainian drone attacks.
SCIUTTO: And that's been a fact, because a lot of these Ukrainian missiles and drones have been able to penetrate Russian airspace and get to highly sensitive targets, missile and ammunition depots, oil facilities, et cetera. They've been able to get through before.
LIEBERMANN: And that may lead to overly trigger happy air defense units that shot at something they absolutely should not have shot at.
SCIUTTO: No question, with so many human casualties. Well, Oren Liebermann, thank you so much.
Breaking news. Now, a second black box has been recovered at the crash site of the Azerbaijan Airlines flight in Kazakhstan. This coming from the state news agency, "Kazinform."
We're going to get some perspective now from CNN military analyst and retired Army three-star general Mark Hertling. Also CNN aerospace analyst, Miles O'Brien. He's also a science correspondent for PBS "Newshour".
Good to have you both here.
Miles, I wonder if I could begin with you, because you have covered a lot of crash investigations in the past, and one of the biggest indicators early on are the pictures we've seen of the fuselage of this Azerbaijani jet, punctures in the fuselage, which the moment I saw that and I'm sure you were similar, they looked quite similar to the puncture marks we saw in MH17, the Malaysian Airliner that was shot down by a Russian Buk missile in 2014. We can put those images up on the air. Tell us, as you look at those, what do they say to you?
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN AEROSPACE ANALYST: Well, as you point out, Jim, hauntingly similar to that event ten years ago when the Russians shot down that Malaysian Airlines 777. What you look at there are obviously what appears to be shrapnel holes. And one of the key things to look at as an investigator of a crash is which way is the metal bent? Is it bent inward or outward? If its outward, that means there might have been a bomb on board.
[20:10:10]
In this case, it's quite clear they are bent inward, which meant there was an explosion in proximity to the tail of that aircraft, which is quite literally smoking gun evidence of a surface to air missile.
So, as you go down, the possibilities of where that might come from, flying over Chechnya in the midst of a heightened military activity, you might conclude a hair trigger approach to things, and you have an aircraft which by some accounts had a couple of missed approaches. In other words, was deviating from the routine schedule and flight path for airliners could have been mistaken with aircraft, which the surface to air missile battery might have thought were hostile. So, a lot of things went wrong here for sure.
SCIUTTO: Yeah, and we should always note with the proviso it is early in the investigation, these are initial assessments.
General Hertling, as I remember from MH17, these anti-aircraft or air defenses are designed to explode in front of an aircraft or target, littering it with shrapnel to then take it down. Can you can you explain how they work exactly. And perhaps explain how something like this could happen, how they could mistake a passenger jet for a drone?
LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, not necessarily in front of, Jim, let me just correct you on that a little bit. Some of them are designed to hit on contact. So they have a missile that will actually hit an aircraft and explode. And that's truthfully the best way to knock down a target.
But some of these systems, some of the Russian air defense systems have what they call adaptive radar proximity, which means if the radar on the piece of equipment on the ground determines where the flight path is, they can launch a missile toward that flight path, and an explosion will occur somewhere near the aircraft.
The film you were just showing showed the MH17 flight in 2014. Most of the shrapnel was in the front of the aircraft. Miles will elaborate more on that.
But on this one, you see most of the fragmentation was on the rear of the airplane and some of the passengers have already said that there were both entry passages from shrapnel, but also exits.
So that means some of the shrapnel actually flew through the airplane. And I'm sure we'll see and hear from the from the recorders, what happened, what the pilot experienced, how it affected the aircraft as opposed to the MH17, which probably was a catastrophic strike that caused it to just fall out of the sky.
This one may have affected some of the control systems, and it certainly affected some of the passengers. I think we're going to hear a lot from some of the passengers and exactly what they experienced with the explosion nearby, not against the aircraft, but nearby, which caused the shrapnel to try and damage.
You've seen pictures of US A-10 aircrafts that have a lot of shrapnel wounds coming out of combat. This is the same kind of thing that occurs with some of the Russian air defense pieces of equipment.
SCIUTTO: Well, with MH17, they were able to pick pieces of the Russian missile out of the fuselage, even out of some of the bodies, to further establish. Of course, the question here is will they be able to conduct a fulsome investigation? Miles, another thing that is striking about this is the path that that passenger jet took, or perhaps was forced to take after the initial strike, because the video were showing there took place something along an hour after it declared its initial emergency, just under an hour.
It had to travel east all the way across the Caspian Sea and some reports that they weren't able to land inside Russian territory.
From a pilot's perspective, I imagine your initial request would be I've got to land now to save lives, but that plane was not allowed to do so. How do you explain that?
O'BRIEN: Yes, that would be right at the top of your list. In a situation like that, when you come to that recognition, you want to get on the ground as quickly as possible. This is a very interesting one to watch and to sort out here, Jim.
This is -- the cockpit voice recorder clearly will give us some insights on this. But one of the things to consider is the weather was supposedly not great at Grozny, so maybe the crew determined it wasn't best to try an emergency landing if they couldn't get in the first place after doing a missed approach, that's a possibility.
The other possibility, which would be a part of this, is there are significant reports, and this has been a problem all throughout the Ukraine war of GPS jamming in that region, which has affected civilian airliners and might have made it difficult for them to fly an approach in low weather.
But there also are reports, most troublingly, Jim, that they were denied permission to land. Imagine, you know, talk about insult to injury, a friendly, an incident, taking down a what is not a hostile aircraft, shooting it and then not giving it permission to land, forcing it to fly across the Caspian Sea.
You have to wonder if they could have gotten on the ground sooner with their hydraulic system, have not been completely compromised, such that they could have gotten the aircraft on the ground -- on land without causing any injuries or deaths. So these are very important questions, and we can only hope there'll be a proper investigation here. Although it's hard to know if we're going to see one.
[20:15:46]
SCIUTTO: I mean, that's the thing, because Russia's track record is abysmal. If you look at MH17, ten years later, Russia still denies its involvement, despite the wealth of evidence. Just quickly before we go, General Hertling, given Russia's willingness to spread disinformation to deny responsibility for a whole host of things, can we expect a full investigation of this?
HERTLING: No, we can't, Jim. And again, that's why who controls the cockpit voice recorder? Who controls the testimony of the people who survived this crazy accident will tell a whole lot. But, you know, in every single case, not just MH17 back in 2014, but even back in Korean Airlines flight 007, in 1983, the Russians have lied about what they've done until they were presented with evidence.
The US has also shot down an airliner to and back in -- I think it was 1988. But immediately upon doing so, the US admitted, hey, this was a horrible accident and a very complicated situation. And we've just seen the Russians will lie about anything that occurs and they're still lying about the MH17 flight. They still haven't owned up to shooting that down with a Buk missile system.
SCIUTTO: And listen, it presents questions because if they won't be honest, then other airlines right now are assessing their risk profile, flying over this airspace right now. I should mention it was in 2020 that an Iranian air defense system shot down a Ukrainian passenger jet, an instance where they thought it was a missile or some other foreign actor. And in fact, it was a it was a passenger jet. Miles O'Brien. General Hertling, thank you so much for walking us through it all.
Coming up next, what to make of the president-elect's Christmas wishes? Well call them, which seem to include buying Greenland and possibly retaking the Panama Canal and annexing Canada. You heard that right?
Later, the horrifying case of a woman set on fire, burned to death on a New York subway, and the fear that crimes like these are stirring up in the millions of New Yorkers who travel underground every day.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:22:07]
SCIUTTO: For most people, presidents included, Holiday messages fit a familiar pattern. Here's Joe Biden's tweet reads, "For the last time, as your president, it is my honor to wish all of America a very Merry Christmas." He goes on, quote. "My hope for our nation today and always is that we continue to seek the light of liberty and love, kindness and compassion, dignity and decency."
Some contrast. Here's what the president-elect posted on his social network. "Merry Christmas to all, including the wonderful soldiers of China who are lovingly but illegally operating the Panama Canal, where we lost 38,000 people, in its building 110 years ago. Always making certain that the United States puts its billions of dollars in repair money, but will have absolutely nothing to say about anything."
Also, he says "To Governor Justin Trudeau of Canada, whose citizens taxes are far too high. But if Canada was to become our 51st state, their taxes would be cut by more than 60 percent. Their businesses would immediately double in size, and they would be militarily protected like no other country anywhere in the world."
Likewise, he concludes, "To the people of Greenland, which is needed by the United States for National Security purposes, and who want the US to be there and we will."
It's a lot. For starters, Justin Trudeau is the prime minister of Canada, not a governor of a state or province, as they called him up there. Greenland, which the president-elect apparently wants to buy, is part of Denmark, which is a fellow member of NATO, a defense ally, and it's not for sale. And the Panama Canal is not controlled by China, but the country of Panama. It is, however, something the president-elect has mentioned we should note before.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: We built a thing called the Panama Canal, we lost 35,000 people to the mosquito, you know, malaria. We lost 35,000 people building --
We lost 35,000 people because of the mosquito -- vicious. They had to build under nets. It was one of the true great wonders of the world. As he said, one of the nine wonders of the world. No, no, it was one of the seven. It happened a little while ago, you know. Fifth of the nine wonders of the world, you could make nine wonders. We sold it under Jimmy Carter. We sold it to Panama for $1.00.
The following day, they quadrupled the amount of money that ships had to pay to get across. They didn't lose one ship, and now they've made it much bigger. And now they've widened it. They've doubled it, right? They've more than doubled it. And it's one of the most profitable things. Any time, it's just incredible, right. We gave it away for $1.00.
China now controls it. They actually control the Panama Canal. They run it. They control it and we shouldn't let that happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Tonight an adviser to the president-elect says the revival of this kind of talk is really just about negotiating tactics. Trying, this adviser says, to force foreign leaders to the table in ways that Trump believes could be beneficial to US trade, and as a way to counter Chinese and Russian influence.
Joining us now, CNN senior political analysts and Republican strategist, David Urban; also, former New York Democratic Congressman Mondaire Jones, thanks so much to both of you gentlemen for taking time during the holiday week.
[20:25:19]
David, let me begin with you. If it's true, this is all just a negotiating tactic. And we have seen this before from Trump in his first term and since then, why would you expect Panama, Canada and Denmark, I mean, they're all allies of the US. Denmark and Canada are treaty allies. I mean, mutual defense treaties with both of them under NATO. Why would you expect them or the president-elect to respond to this kind of brinksmanship positively, given the way he's talking about taking their land?
DAVID URBAN, CNN'S SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. So, Jim, I'm not sure he's talking to their land. Look, I think, you know, there's the Monroe Doctrine, which I know everyone is familiar with or maybe people aren't familiar with, but, you know, the -- SCIUTTO: Sure --spheres of influence Americans and Europe, yes --
URBAN: -- yes, in the western hemisphere, right, and then there was the Roosevelt Corollary to the Monroe Doctrine, which allowed you to carry a big stick and kind of work up and down the Americas to keep American interests at bay. And now this is the Trump corollary to the Monroe Doctrine, right? We're going to have that to secure America.
Look, the United States has looked to buy Greenland before 1867. The State Department said we should buy Greenland at the same time we were buying Alaska from the Russians. In 1946, President Truman tried to buy Greenland from the Democrats, recognizing its strategic importance, its geopolitical significance, its mineral assets there. So it's not a crazy idea. It's been thought about a bunch of times before.
The Panama Canal completely, you know, we've seen this before. George HW Bush, when the treaty was signed in '77 and ratified, there was an out for America, if the neutrality of the Panama Canal was ever threatened. We could use our military force to go back and make it neutral again. We did that in 19 and 1989 --
SCIUTTO: Wait are you saying, Trump is talking about using military force to take the Panama Canal back?
URBAN: No, listen, Jim, I'm saying that there is an out in the treaty that says if the neutrality of the Canal is ever threatened by the Chinese or whomever else, the United States has the right to go back in. We did that before in Operation Just Cause, we did it to topple Manuel Noriega and put in a new president. We could we could presumably do it again. The Trudeau piece --
SCIUTTO: That is true.
URBAN: -- I think he is trolling him.
SCIUTTO: That would be quite a use of military force considering the American first agenda, which seems to be about pulling back from military adventures abroad. Mondaire Jones, I wonder --
URBAN: Jim, however that --
SCIUTTO: Well, let me give Mondaire a chance to respond, because what you're describing use of military force, but also, I mean, you're talking about 19th century tactics. It strikes me in terms of, you know, buying pieces of land from countries that have expressed their lack of interest in doing so. But Mondaire Jones, what is your response to that view? Do you think it's possible US policy in the incoming administration?
MONDAIRE JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first of all, you put up those Happy Holidays tweets from President Joe Biden and the incoming President Donald Trump. And it reminded me of an of an SNL skit when you compare those two.
I mean, one is deeply unserious. And of course, that's Donald Trump's tweet where he where he seeks to do foreign policy by tweet, where he has no regard for diplomacy. These are our allies, as you mentioned in the introduction to this segment.
And so, if this is how Donald Trump is going to treat our allies. Then we are in for a hell of a ride these next four or so years. We've got really challenging problems around the world. And were going to need countries like Denmark and Greenland and Panama and Canada, for that matter, to be with us in these efforts, in these international efforts.
Our enemies are only growing stronger and I'm talking about Russia and China, which is why we have to make sure that we keep our alliances strong. And this idea of toppling independent government leaders based on, you know, arcane clauses from, you know, a few centuries ago, I think is not the appropriate approach.
SCIUTTO: I mean, David. David, here's the point. I get what you're talking about. Russia and China --
URBAN: Jim, let me point out something here.
SCIUTTO: No, because on Russia and China, that seems to be Trump's focus here. The question is do you want your allies on your side as you do or no, I mean, do you want them on your side?
URBAN: Yes, let's talk about Panama specifically. Let's talk about Panama specifically in 2018, I believe it was 2018. The Panamanians rejected Taiwan. They embraced China. They were the first country in Central or South America to sign the Belt and Road -- to ink the Belt and Road Initiative with the Chinese. The Chinese operate the biggest ports on the Atlantic and Pacific side. They have huge billions of dollars of investments inside Panama.
So, what I'm talking about, Congressman, and Jim, is not something that's farfetched. If our strategic waterways are threatened, the Panama Canal being a very strategic importance for getting military ships, cargo ships, back and forth in the Atlantic, Pacific and that's threatened by the Chinese, there is a clause. It's not an arcane clause in some hundred-year-old document. It is in a 1977 document.
There is a specific out in there saying that if the neutrality was threatened we'd go in and do it. And I would think that anybody in their right mind would want to stand up for America and do that to make sure we weren't threatened by the Chinese in the western hemisphere.
JONES: Donald Trump ran on ending forever wars and pulling us back from these international conflicts. Panama is its own country. There would be no justification. By the way, China is not operating the Panama Canal. You've got some Hong Kong-based firms operating --
SCIUTTO: Hutchison Whampoa, which is which is a publicly listed company in Hong Kong and that seems to be some of the basis of this.
Listen, gentlemen, let's keep up this conversation, because there are going to be a number of places around the world where the US comes nose and nose with Russia and China. David knows I cover this very closely. We'll, have to leave this one here tonight.
[20:30:58]
URBAN: Hey, Jim, you know I'm telling the truth, Jim. You know I'm telling the truth.
SCIUTTO: About Russia and China. I don't know about war in Panama but, you know, we can carry that conversation on to the next show.
URBAN: OK, we'll do it. Have me back.
SCIUTTO: Coming up this hour -- we will have you back -- New Yorkers reeling from just a gruesome murder of a woman lit on fire, allegedly by a fellow subway passenger. They now speak out about their fears of violent crime in the nation's most populous city.
And later, new concerns about bird flu potentially spreading to humans after the deadly virus killed more than half the big cats at a U.S. wildlife sanctuary. Just how real is the threat of another pandemic? We're going to speak to a leading infectious disease expert. Please do stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:35:43]
SCIUTTO: New Yorkers held a vigil earlier today at the New York subway stop where a woman was brutally and horrifically murdered this past weekend. She has yet to be identified. Police say a fellow subway passenger lit the woman, who's believed to have been homeless, on fire, literally fanning the flames and then watching her burn from a nearby bench.
Authority say the suspect, 33-year-old Sebastian Zapeta-Calil, is an undocumented migrant from Guatemala who had re-entered the country illegally after he was deported. His last known address suggests he is homeless as well. On Tuesday, he was charged with first and second degree murder, as well as arson.
Today, Mayor Eric Adams suggested the possibility of federal charges. Surveillance video of the gruesome act, which we are deliberately not going to show, rocketed around social media, and refocused attention on issues involving crime, homelessness, and immigration.
Our Gary Tuchman joins us now from Coney Island subway platform. Gary, I wonder what rioters have been telling tonight about their level of fear after what happened on Sunday.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They've been telling us a lot, Jim. This is where it happened. The Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue substation -- subway station. It's one of 472 subway stations in New York City. It's more than any subway system in the world.
On the average, 3.2 million New Yorkers ride on the subway. That's more than the population of Chicago, Illinois. So it gives you an idea underground and in the tracks above. It's another major city that police have to patrol. So there's a lot for them to worry about, but there's also the fact that, unfortunately, people who ride the subway in New York aren't necessarily surprised when there's violence, because it happens a lot.
But this, because it was so brutal, and because it was so barbaric, people who are normally blase are very stunned. This is the F train. The F train is one of 36 lines in New York City. This is where police say it happened. Police allege that there was a woman sitting on the bench in the F train set on fire.
And they say that man you were saying, Sebastian Zapeta-Calil, he has been arraigned on first and second degree murder charges for allegedly setting her on fire. They say that after he set her on fire, he allegedly came to this bench, sat down on this bench, and watched her continue to burn.
We talked to New Yorkers who ride the subway every day who come in and out of the station and ask them what they thought.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All my friends are freaking out. Everyone, my sister doesn't even want to ride the train anymore.
TUCHMAN: How do you feel about riding the train?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel fine because I know nothing's going to really happen to me.
TUCHMAN: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I'm not -- I don't really sleep on the train or on my phone much on the train.
TUCHMAN: Do you think it's dangerous to ride the New York City subway?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now it's more dangerous, yes. I advise people to maybe bring something with you to defend yourself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sometimes you feel scared. No matter how big you are, you get scared.
TUCHMAN: What do you do to keep yourself safe?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Try to stay near the door, keep alert, don't play on the phone, and hope your stop comes real quick and get out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I heard the story, I was scared to go on the train.
TUCHMAN: Do you have any alternatives? Could you take an uber or lift or taxi to where you want to go?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, I can just it's not financially the best thing to do.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
TUCHMAN: Jim, you'd be hard pressed to find any New Yorkers who ride this train regularly, who would tell you they never see people on the train who are scary or aggressive. It's very common. But I must tell you, I ride a lot of subways in this country when I travel. It's not a unique problem to New York City.
Jim, back to you.
SCIUTTO: Tell us what the next court appearance is now for the suspect.
TUCHMAN: Yes, it's expected the suspect will be in court tomorrow. Authorities could reveal that an indictment has come out charging him at first and second degree murder. Jim?
SCIUTTO: Gary Tuchman, thanks so much.
Just ahead, going fears over the spread of bird flu now in this country, we will have new details on how the virus is not only a concern for dairy cattle and poultry farms, but also cats, including possibly the one you may have at home.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:44:17]
SCIUTTO: There are new concerns tonight as bird flu continues to spread. A week ago, California declared a state of emergency after a mass infection of dairy cattle there in Washington State where cases have been on the rise or that half of the big cats at One Wildlife Sanctuary died after contracting the virus. Even more concerning, it is unclear exactly how they got bird flu.
CNN's Randi Kaye has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): That's Thumper, a 10-year-old Eurasian Lynx who used to love to play and scratch the decks high above the foliage. The video from August was taken at the Wild Felid Advocacy Center of Washington, a big cat sanctuary where Thumper lived. Thumper is one of 20 cats from the sanctuary who died in recent weeks from bird flu.
[20:45:07]
MARK MATTHEWS, DIRECTOR, WILD FELID ADVOCACY CENTER: We thought we were doing everything we could to avoid anything like this from happening. The cats are pretty well split up into 30 by 40 foot habitats.
KAYE (voice-over): The sanctuary's director and co-founder, Mark Matthews, says the cat's enclosures are spread out among 5 acres. He told me their first cat got sick on November 22nd. The 17-year-old cougar, named Hannah Wyoming, stopped eating and died the next day. A day later, this African caracal, named Crackle, also got sick and died. Others they lost included this cougar named Holly (ph) and Tabbi, a Bengal tiger.
MATTHEWS: Tabbi the tiger was a very fun loving tiger. She had a super personality. Every time I came up, she'd come running, running to meet me.
KAYE (voice-over): This Bengal cat pebbles also succumbed to bird flu, as well as mouse, a Jeffrey (ph) cat. Only 17 of the 37 cats once housed here are left. Neiko, an African serval, is still in critical condition fighting to regain the use of his back legs.
JOLIE CONNOLLY-POE, STAFF MEMBER, WILD FELID ADVOCACY CENTER: Feeling devastated kind of in shock. I'm just taking really good care of those ones who are recovering.
KAYE (voice-over): The disease spread rapidly, and they still don't know how exactly the bird flu entered their facility.
MATTHEWS: Initially, we thought it was the for bird droppings from waterfowl. We are in a flight pattern for migratory birds, so I don't know if that's part of the equation or not. So we really don't know at this time if it was food related or not.
DR. DEAN BLUMBERG, INFECTIOUS DISEASE EXPERT, UC DAVIS CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL: Although we don't know exactly how it got there, it just makes sense that it's likely due to migratory birds because we know bird flu is transmitted through the migratory bird population.
KAYE (voice-over): Dr. Dean Blumberg is an infectious disease expert at UC Davis.
BLUMBERG: It's spread through the bird's saliva, the feces, the urine, and so you really can't protect against that in the natural environment.
KAYE (voice-over): The staff at the sanctuary are working tirelessly to disinfect the habitats, while also protecting themselves from getting sick. They're wearing PPE, including N95 masks and doing foot baths when they enter and leave.
BLUMBERG: The virus may mutate and become more easily transmitted person to person. So the more this virus circulates and specifically co-circulates with human strains, that's going to increase the odds of the virus evolving to more human to human transmission. And that, of course, could signal another pandemic.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
SCIUTTO: Randi, I understand there's also concern now about house cats. What are you learning?
KAYE (on-camera): Yes, Jim, there's not only the big cats who are at risk, but now it seems that the house cats are at risk as well. This is after a house cat in Oregon died after eating a pet product that was later found to be infected with or tested positive for bird flu.
So now this Portland based -- Portland, Oregon based pet food company is issuing a nationwide voluntary recall. The name of the company is Northwest Naturals, and the recall is for a 2-pound Feline turkey recipe. That's one of their raw, frozen recipes.
And I should note that this product was distributed all over the United States. Across this country, it was also distributed in parts of Canada, including British Columbia. So there's a lot of concern, Jim, for pet owners, certainly cat owners, about how this might spread.
Can their cat get it? Can it spread to humans? So many questions for pet owners. I also want to note, Jim, that that sanctuary we reported on is closed for now to the public, but they are hoping to reopen again in March.
SCIUTTO: Randi Kaye, thanks so much.
Joining me now, director for the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota, the epidemiologist Michael Osterholm. Good to speak to you again, sir. Thanks so much for joining.
MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, DIR. CENTER FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH AND POLICY, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA: Thank you, Jim. Good to be with you.
SCIUTTO: As far as we know, at this point, bird flu has not made the jump of going from human to human. People have contracted the virus from animals. I wonder how far away we are from that possibility. Are we just, in effect, one mutation away from human to human transmission?
OSTERHOLM: Well, Jim, let me just be really clear here that, you know, this is not rocket sciences, flu work, it's actually a lot more complicated. We don't know. And anyone that tells you they do know, you have to be very careful.
What we do know is, of course, flu viruses continue to change. They mutate this particular H5N1 virus has been doing this really since 1996, when it first showed up in China, caused an outbreak in Hong Kong in '97. And what most people don't realize is this was killing cats.
Way back in 2003 and 2004, one of the zoos in Thailand lost over 100 large cats because they were fed culled poultry that had died from H5N1. And so we've been seeing this for a long time in cats.
[20:50:02]
What's changed, though, is in the last two years, a new strain of this H5N1 has emerged that has caused a lot of additional infections in mammal species that we've not seen this before over 50. And, of course, as you're well aware, the dairy side of the house now has also contributed substantially to this, which we had never seen before. So we don't know where we're at right now with this virus. There will be more influenza pandemics. Is this the one that's going to cause it? We don't know.
SCIUTTO: That's the open question, of course. I wonder, and I remember I've covered previous H1N1 outbreaks years ago. Those did not develop into a pandemic, thankfully.
I wonder over what time period might such a thing happen given where we are now? Is it a matter of weeks, months, years? Or is that -- does that fall into the we don't know category as well?
OSTERHOLM: We don't know category is really the operative word for today, but let me just point out that we are doing more and more with this virus as a result of human activity, such as what we're seeing in dairy cattle right now, bringing together this virus.
And we only learned this past year that the cow udder actually has receptor sites with the ability for both bird viruses and human viruses to grow in that utter. Why is that important? Because that's how you actually see pandemic strains emerge where two different viruses co-infect cells, swap out genes, and then create this brand new virus.
And so this is why we're so concerned. Has it happened yet? No, we have not seen any evidence of severe illness trans being transmitted to individuals who work in the dairy area. But that could all change tonight. And that's what we're trying to help people understand is that we're on a major alert right now for this issue.
SCIUTTO: What should the country be doing right now to help, to the extent that it can, to help prevent this from becoming something more serious?
OSTERHOLM: Well, you know, this is a lot like going off the edge of a cliff. You know, it's really pretty safe until you get to that last one hundredth of an inch and then you go off quickly. And that's where we're at right now with this virus.
We don't know if we're ever going to get to the edge of the cliff. There is not a lot that people can do as individual citizens. What we need to do is do much more to try to bring the H5N1 situation in dairy cattle under control.
We're almost at 900 herds now in this country infected, of which 75 percent are in California, and it's just continuing to spread. Remember, I just mentioned that issue about the cow udder and how that could serve as the melding pot for developing a new flu virus.
It's unacceptable that we continue to see this kind of transmission in these cattle. Much more needs to be done there. We need to be doing more with vaccines. There was a release today from the CDC looking at this case of illness that occurred in the woman in Louisiana.
And the good news is that this particular virus looks like it matches up with a candidate virus we have for a vaccine. The problem is there's no -- not one drop of that vaccine made yet. And the world only has the capacity to make about 3.5 billion doses a year. And that's it.
SCIUTTO: And it's happening at a time when there's vaccine skepticism, despite the enormous successes they've had --
OSTERHOLM: Exactly.
SCIUTTO: -- with the number of diseases.
Michael Osterholm, thanks so much as always.
OSTERHOLM: Thanks a lot, Jim. Take care. Bye-bye.
SCIUTTO: Coming up next, a live update on dangerous weather, including tornadoes hitting the Houston area and elsewhere in southeast Texas, like this one era warehouse in El Campo, Texas.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:57:32]
SCIUTTO: Breaking news, authorities issued a new tornado watch for parts of Louisiana and Texas just a short time ago. And take a look, a water spout over Lake Houston, just northeast of the city. Severe conditions blanketing southeast Texas tonight spreading eastward.
CNN's Chad Myers following it all for us. Chad, tell us who's got to be concerned and where.
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: You know, I mean, all the parishes of Louisiana, even into parts of Arkansas, and then a break tomorrow, but another round of this on Saturday. So here's where the radar is right now. We have had a couple of tornadoes on the ground.
We still have this red box underneath the radar. That's the watch that you mentioned until 2:00 a.m. We only had one warning. It's right there. It it holds together, it would move over I 20. But really, the rotation doesn't look that impressive right now.
But there are big storms out there. There's wind. There's lightning. There's some hail. Tomorrow, there may be a little bit more. But Saturday, it really ramps up for another event kind of like what we're having today.
Now let's move you ahead all the way to Saturday. If you're driving up and down I-95, well make sure your wipers are working very, very well because there's an awful lot of rain involved. As we work our way into the afternoon, there will be some severe weather centered around Jackson, Mississippi, but you get the idea.
There's going to be a lot of rain in places that need the rain, except for where it was hit so hard with Helene. We don't need rain there. And then all of a sudden, we're going to see the thunderstorms move off to the east and then to the west.
Yes, you're going to see snow and lots of it. There will be places, Jim, with 2 feet of new snow on top of what they already have.
SCIUTTO: Good for skiers. Not so good for drivers.
MYERS: You bet.
SCIUTTO: Chad Myers, thanks so much.
A programming note, don't miss the CNN Special, "All The Best, All The Worst 2024", that's tonight, 11:00 eastern. Tom Foreman will recap all the big news of the year, including politics and music and movies. Also, the headlines you may have forgotten. Here's a preview.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In pop culture, art, and science, the best show on Earth about things off Earth was the total eclipse that sliced across America. The worst reality? All the places you couldn't see it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did see the clip of Brianna and Boris doing sun and moon, and that was about as close to the eclipse as I got.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: The moon will be going in front of the sun.
We didn't tell our bosses that we were going to do it because we thought they'd shut us down.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: It was an astounding moment to witness in person and one that I'll never forget.
FOREMAN (voice-over): The second best celestial show was that rare explosion of northern lights much farther south than usual.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: It turns out you can see them better through your phone. But if I'm looking at it through my phone, am I really looking at it?
FOREMAN (voice-over): And let's not forget the spectacular comet that lit up the skies in autumn.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When was the comet?
(END VIDEO TAPE)
SCIUTTO: "All the Best, All the Worst of 2024" airs tonight at 11:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN. The news continues right now. Source with Kaitlan Collins.
