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Amanpour

Interview With Haaretz Military Correspondent And Defense Analyst Amos Harel; Interview With UNICEF Spokesperson James Elder; Interview With CNN Legal Analyst, Former White House Ethics Czar And Former House Judiciary Special Counsel Norm Eisen; Interview With Florida Abortion Provider And Committee To Protect Health Care Member Dr. Chelsea Daniels. Aired 1-2p ET

Aired May 07, 2024 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:53]

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up. As a ceasefire deal stalls and fears

of an Israeli incursion heighten in Rafah, I speak to journalist Amos Harel.

Then 11 years old and almost no family left. Correspondent Jomana Karadsheh meets orphans from Gaza facing a painful new reality. And UNICEF

spokesperson James Elder joins me.

Plus, Trump on trial. As Stormy Daniels takes the witness stand, we bring you the latest.

And as Florida's six-week abortion ban takes effect, what does it mean for women there? I ask Planned Parenthood Dr. Chelsea Daniels.

Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour, who will be back next week.

Well, hope turned to despair overnight in Gaza. What you're seeing now are celebrations that were held in Rafah after Hamas announced that they'd

agreed to a ceasefire deal yesterday. But this moment was short lived. Israel soon announcing the terms of that deal didn't meet its demands and

sending a delegation for further talks. This happens as the IDF is pushing into parts of Rafah, warning civilians to leave east of the area and taking

control of the Gazan side of the Rafah Crossing into Egypt.

Visiting border -- visiting troops near the border, the Israeli defense minister, Yoav Gallant, said this operation will continue until Hamas is

eliminated or hostages begin being returned.

Meantime, Palestinians say more than 20 people were killed in overnight strikes, including six children. And many of Israel's allies and the United

Nations are urging the nation to avoid a ground invasion.

Joining me now on this is Amos Harel, long time military correspondent and defense analyst for the Israeli newspaper Haaretz. Amos. It's so great to

see you. Thank you so much for joining us.

You heard the comments there earlier from Defense Minister Gallant, where he said the operation in Gaza will continue until either Hamas is

eliminated or the first hostage is returned, and that seems to be supported by your analysis where you say the IDF's move thus must be seen as part of

the ongoing negotiations for a ceasefire and hostage release.

Do you think the IDF's actions going in to Rafah right now is limited as this incursion may be will actually put more pressure and ratchet up the

pressure on Hamas to finally agree to a deal or do you think there's a greater risk of sabotaging it?

AMOS HAREL, MILITARY CORRESPONDENT AND DEFENSE ANALYST, HAARETZ: I'm pretty sure that this is the intention. I think the scope of the operation has not

been decided yet, and it will depend on what happens on the field.

This is a rather limited operation. There are two Israeli brigades operating there since yesterday evening, they have moved ahead about two

miles into Palestinian territory on a specific narrow corridor, which is called the Philadelphi Corridor and is on the border of Egypt.

And they haven't taken full control of the corridor, just the first part of it. They haven't moved into the city of Rafah itself. So, this, to me,

seems yet as a more of an Israeli threat, a military threat, but not the beginning of a major incursion. It will depend on what happens in Cairo.

There is an Israeli delegation there discussing with the mediators, with the Qataris and the Americans and, of course, the Egyptians the outcome of

a possible deal.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, and to get to that specific deal and what Israel was in looped in on or not, and now there's some reporting that Israelis felt

blindsided not only by Hamas and Egypt but by the United States as well, there seems to be some disagreement about the language itself and whether

there's -- it's parsing of words when you talk about substantial calm versus complete cessation of fighting and the withdrawal of the IDF as a

whole.

[13:05:00]

Reporter Barak Ravid has said that his sources tell him with knowledge of the negotiations that the U.S. invited the Israelis to Cairo over the

weekend, but they chose not to send a team. One Israeli official telling him that it admitted that that was a mistake on Israel's part to have less

visibility of the talks. Would you agree with that assessment?

HAREL: I tend to agree with Barak almost always. Yes, I think this is the - - more or less the situation. I think the main issues where the sites have not reached an agreement yet have to do, as you said, with the outcome of

the war will be deal itself lead to a full-scale ceasefire and a full Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.

This is the main issue for Hamas, of course, because it would mean Hamas' continued survival. This is the big deal for Yahya Sinwar, the leader in

Gaza. For the Israelis, and especially for Prime Minister Netanyahu, this could be quite an embarrassment because it would mean that we have not

reached the pronounced goals of the operation after the horrific massacre of October 7th. Netanyahu announced that he was going to bring the hostages

back, but also that he was going to annihilate the Hamas regime. This hasn't happened. And if he signs a deal now, it would mean he has to admit

that he didn't achieve that goal.

One more important point I think we should make has to do with the number of hostages being returned on the first stage of the deal. The number

discussed is 33, but Hamas has been sending signals that it cannot actually reach the quota of 33 live hostages, and it might want to bring back some

bodies of hostages that were either killed on October 7th or died while being in a Hamas captivity. This is something that the Israelis could not

live with, especially because Hamas refuses to release the full details about what happened to those hostages, and this could be a major obstacle

reaching a deal.

GOLODRYGA: Prime Minister Netanyahu has passed his prologue. It does seem like he's inclined to deny this deal as it's staged for a number of

reasons, perhaps his own political future and concern about his coalition and how some of the far-right members of his coalition will react to this.

That having been said, some members of his war cabinet, including those from the opposition, and that is Gadi Eisenkot and Benny Gantz, have said

from day one that the sole issue for them and that will keep them in this coalition right now is the priority being the return of the hostages.

Have we reached a point where they are either left with not living up to their words, or do you think there will come a point imminently where they

will be forced to leave?

HAREL: So, Netanya was stuck between a rock and a hard place. If he moves forward with the deal, he may be facing a huge crisis with the far-right

parties in his coalition. Benjamin's (ph) party and Bezalel Smotrich's party.

On the other hand, Gantz and Eisenkot who are on the left side or the center side of the government do not seem too keen on leaving the

government while the crisis is still ongoing. And they claim that in a number of occasions since the war began, they actually helped restrain some

of the more dangerous trends among Israeli decision makers.

And yet, especially Gadi Eisenkot who lost his son, Gal, during the war while fighting for the release of the hostages, feels a huge moral

obligation to the families of the Israeli hostages. So, my guess is that if this does not move forward in the next month or so, and if Eisenkot

believed that Netanyahu is to blame and not only Hamas, Eisenkot may decide to resign, may decide to leave the government and he could even force

Gantz, his partner, to leave along with him.

GOLODRYGA: And that would lead to a huge political shake up in the country, to say the least, and more cries for an imminent new round of elections. I

was speaking yesterday with the mother, and this was a pre-scheduled interview, with the mother of one hostage, Romi Gonen, and it was very

difficult to have to break this news to her as it was happening in real- time. And you see that these family members of the hostages are putting on this government day in, day out with more and more protests.

I want to turn to the question of Egypt, because we've seen a lot of condemnation, a lot of warnings from Israel's neighbors and allies,

including the United States, about what this operation in Rafah will look like. How concerned are Egyptians about a potential spillover into Sinai?

And what could that mean vis-a-vis the relationship between Egypt and Israel?

[13:10:00]

HAREL: The Egyptians have been publicly and vocally very, very concerned since the first week of the war. When Israeli politicians began mentioning

the possibility of pushing Gaza refugees towards Sinai, towards Egyptian territory, everybody from General Sisi to his ministers warned Israel

publicly not to even think of going in that direction.

However, my sense is that in recent weeks, there has been a more tight coordination and a better understanding between the Israelis and the

Egyptians regarding Israel's actions. I don't think the Egyptians were surprised by what happened last night by the fact that the Israelis went

into the Philadelphi Corridor and decided to take control of the Rafah Crossing.

As long as this doesn't spill over, as you have described it, as long as there are not tens of thousands of Palestinians refugees storming into

Sinai, I think the Egyptians can live with that. And I think Israel has a point in blaming Egypt for some of what has happened, because for years and

years and years while Egypt declared itself as an ally and more or less of a friend to Israel, in spite of the disagreements over the Palestinian

conflict, that in reality, the Egyptians were turning a blind eye to the fact that Palestinians, especially Hamas were smuggling thousands and

thousands of weapons, rockets, mortar bombs rifles, anything you can think of through that same Philadelphi Corridor without Egypt actually

intervening.

And this is a very difficult point that the Israelis keep making. And I think that, in a way, the Egyptians should help correct that situation,

considering what everything that has happened.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, I believe the IDF said that they uncovered or at least they, they said, I don't know if they showed proof of three tunnels that

they've already found from Rafah going into Egypt.

Amos, help me square in our final moments here something that you wrote, and I always read what you write, it's mandatory reading. You said,

accepting the deal will not be an Israeli victory or a Hamas capitulation, but an Israeli recognition of the limits of power.

Given that, and then given what we're hearing just now from John Kirby saying that the United States was hopeful, Israel and Hamas could "close

the remaining gaps and the ceasefire talks" help me square how both can be aligned here.

HAREL: I think that we should be realistic about this. Israel has been fighting this war for seven months. We have encountered the worst day in

Israeli history on October 7th. We have tried to correct that from our point of view. The IDF was quite successful at defeating Hamas brigades and

battalions in the northern part and the central part of the Gaza Strip.

But for the time being, it seems that it will take a very, very long time until we are able to defeat Hamas completely on the battlefield, and you

can never defeat or annihilate completely an idea. And Hamas is about an ideology, a doctrine, a very aggressive ideology towards Israel. But this

is not something that we can solve on our own quickly.

So, under these circumstances, I think there's -- there are benefits in moving towards a deal, even if we don't reach a final victory over Hamas as

Netanyahu keeps promising his political base. Will that actually happen in the next few weeks? I really hope and pray that this does happen because,

especially, I think from an Israeli perspective, more than anything else I'm worried about the hostages lives and about the possibility of more

Israeli lives lost. But I think that if the war goes on for a long time, it will create a huge international crisis for Israel. And this is something

that we need to correct.

On the other hand, I'm not so sure that Hamas would play along since it has been so cynical about the whole crisis.

GOLODRYGA: Especially if they think they have the upper hand here. Amos Harel, great to see you. Thank you so much for joining us.

HAREL: Thank you for inviting me.

GOLODRYGA: And when we come back, robbed of their childhood. CNN meets some of the 17,000 children who have been orphaned by the war in Gaza, as they

deal with unspeakable loss.

Then, UNICEF's global spokesperson, James Elder, on how an invasion of Rafah will make the crisis even worse for the people who are sheltering

there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:16:46]

GOLODRYGA: Welcome back to the program. Returning to our top story, Israeli airstrikes in Rafah are raising fears of an eminent full-scale invasion.

Humanitarian organizations are warning that a ground assault could be catastrophic for the people sheltering there. This, as the E.U.'s top

diplomat says, there are no safe zones left in Gaza.

Sadly, civilians are paying the highest price. According to the U.N., nearly 15,000 Palestinian children have been killed in the last seven

months of war. And for those who have survived, thousands are left with no family to care for them. Correspondent Jomana Karadsheh visited one

orphaned child receiving medical care in Doha after being injured in an Israeli airstrike.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Darin giggles and shrieks at the same time. The pain from bending her knees is

just too much.

You promised you won't make me cry today, she tells the nurse.

Months of these physical therapy sessions after multiple surgeries has gotten her back up on her feet. Starting to walk again as she turned 11.

Last time we saw Darin, she was lying injured, unconscious in a hospital bed in Gaza last October. She and her brother Kinan had just survived an

Israeli airstrike. Kinan was quiet and confused, barely able to open his eyes. Their great aunt was by their bedside trying to shield them from the

most crushing of news.

DARIN ELBAYYA, PARENTS KILLED IN GAZA (through translator): For the first time now, I feel that I am an orphan. In the morning when I go to school,

mom and dad are not there to give them a kiss before I leave.

KARADSHEH (voice-over): Darin and Kinan now know they were the only ones who survived that airstrike. Their mom, dad, and eight-year-old brother,

Walid, are gone. Their grandparents, uncles, aunts, and cousins, 70 loved ones, all perished that October day.

The children made it out to Gaza (ph) for medical treatment. They have new friends, they go to school, they play and laugh. But beneath this veneer of

normalcy is the pain they share with nearly 20,000 Palestinian children the U.N. estimates have lost their parents in this war.

Five-year-old Kinan seems oblivious to it all, but sometimes his aunt says he pretends he's on the phone to his parents.

They laugh, they smile, but they also cry, Yusra (ph) tells us. Sometimes I can't be strong anymore. I hug Darin and we cry. Then I pull myself

together and tell her we have to be strong and get through this.

Yusra (ph), separated from her own family in Gaza, has not left their side since October. She's become their everything. They now call her tata or

grandma. Not a day goes by for Darin without thinking of her parents and all those she's lost. She interrupts her interview several times to look

through their photos. It's what she does when she misses them.

ELBAYYA (through translator): I miss mom's cooking, I miss mom, my dad and my brother. Dad made me my own princess themed room. Mom used to spoil me.

When I was little and war would come, it would last a few days. But this war was unlike any other war, God chose to take the people we love, the

good people.

[13:20:00]

KARADSHEH (voice-over): On a call to her injured uncle in Gaza, Darin breaks down begging anyone to get him and his family out. She has to

protect them, she says. It's that all-consuming fear of losing those she has left.

ELBAYYA (through translator): I wish I could go back to Gaza, but what will be left in Gaza? Destruction, people are all in tents. Gaza in no longer

Gaza. It is now a city of ghosts.

KARADSHEH (voice-over): For now, she's finding her own way of dealing with grief.

ELBAYYA (through translator): I am not sad that was family was killed, because they are happy in heaven. They are not dead, they are alive. We

don't see them but they see us.

KARADSHEH (voice-over): Jomana Karadsheh, CNN, Doha.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: Our thanks to Jomana for that report. Our next guest has seen firsthand what the conditions are like inside Gaza. James Elder is the

spokesperson for UNICEF and has visited the enclave many times. He describes the devastation that he witnessed in his latest piece for "The

Guardian." "In Rafah, I saw new graveyards filled with children. It is unimaginable that worse could yet -- could be yet to come."

James Elder, welcome to the program. I know that you were watching Jomana's piece as well. And stories like Darin's, on the one hand, just devastating,

on the other to know that she and her brother are -- I don't know how else to describe them except for the lucky ones to have survived. Give us a

sense of what you've seen and how similar and even worse, some of the stories are to Darin's.

JAMES ELDER, UNICEF SPOKESPERSON: Yes. Hi, Bianna. Yes, Darin's story, Kinan's story, listening to it, it puts a chill down my spine. As you say,

some of the lucky ones. Bianna, so many children who I would sit with in hospitals who were unaware that their parents had been killed.

Children -- remembering what a bomb blast does. I came to learn sadly. Firstly, it's the -- it attacks all the senses, when you see, it's the

smell, Bianna, a child burning flesh is something that doesn't really leave and broken bones. It looks like these little boys and girls have been

broken and badly put together.

And then, of course, shrapnel. Shrapnel is designed to rip through concrete. It does horrendous things to a child's body. And I can't tell you

how many times I was in a hospital seeing a child in surgery only to have an adult whisper, well, they also -- they don't know yet that their entire

family was killed in this strike. I thought that's something I would never hear. It's now -- it's almost commonplace.

In the same way, Bianna, there that that little girl, Darin, spoke of trying to, you know, keep picturing her parents and remembering to make a

phone call, I spoke to a little boy, Omar, who lost his twin brother and his parents in a blast. And as I sat and spoke with him, he was very

silent, but we spent time together. He just continually would shut his eyes. He'd close his eyes all the time. And I asked his auntie, why, why

does Omar do this? And she said, he's just terrified of losing the image of his parents in the same way he's lost them here on earth. That story is

repeated across the Gaza Strip, Bianna.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. To quote more from your piece, you wrote, the war against Gaza's children is forcing many to close their eyes. Nine-year-old

Muhammad's (ph) eyes were forced shut first by the bandages that covered a gaping hole in the back of his head. And second by the coma caused by the

blast that hit his family home. He is nine. Sorry. He was nine. Mohammed (ph) is now dead.

You talk about one boy who survived who's closing his eyes repeatedly to remember his family. And obviously, even more horrific stories about

children who ultimately close their eyes to never open them again.

ELDER: It's something that struck me. I often get asked about is, you know, 20 years I've worked for UNICEF in a whole range, far too many war zones,

and I get asked about, is it the worst I've seen? And I think it's perilous to compare for UNICEF in our hearts, a child is a child. I have incredible

colleagues from Afghanistan to Ukraine on the frontlines.

What struck me and what strikes me every time I'm in Gaza, Bianna, it's just the ubiquitousness of it. I'm in an ICU. And everywhere I look, there

is a child with the wounds of war. And frequently, I go back the next day and it's a different child in a bed because that child hasn't made it. And

now, somehow, we have to get our heads around the idea that, incredulously, this thing is going to get worse.

So, as you said, that the little girl, Darin, and Kinan, the boy, the lucky ones, they're out. Most children, most of those children who had their

parents and often their grandparents and their aunts and their uncles, I'm sorry, their brothers and their sisters, entire families killed, they're

still there.

[13:25:00]

So, they've moved three or four times. They're living in horrendous conditions without sanitation, without enough food, they go to sleep at

night. The way I felt it, Bianna, it's like lying in a coffin. You lie there and you just hear the shutters and you start to learn how close a

bomb is. Those boys and girls whose parents have been killed, they're doing that. They will do that tonight in Rafah.

So, the level of trauma that they have to recover from, and yet, what they're doing is living in a war zone that's getting worse without their

mom and dad. That's why, from day one, we've called a ceasefire, it does so many things, it gets the hostages home. You know, the torment, it's

unspeakable. It lets us flood the Gaza Strip with aid and it might start to address this uncharted territory of mental health crisis we're in for boys

and girls across that area.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, you just reminded me early in this war, we had a psychologist on who talked about the emotional trauma this had on Israeli

children, Palestinian children, and we definitely should revisit that conversation once again, because it's only gotten worse.

You also mentioned being asked about comparing this war zone to others, and you really can't in many ways. I mean, just the tight space here, to remind

viewers that Rafah was a city prior to the war of about a quarter million. Now, you've got over a million people there. The IDF saying they're doing

all they can to drop leaflets, to warn people ahead of time to leave, that they're not targeting civilians, but it is very perilous and very difficult

to get all of these people to move.

I want to ask you about what Israel said and they announced that they were expanding "safe zone in Mawasi" and that's an agricultural area on the

coast between Khan Younis and Rafah. What more can you tell us about that area? How realistic would an evacuation like that be?

ELDER: Yes, Bianna, it's a great question. So, yes, Rafah now a city of children, more than half of all girls and boys in the Gaza Strip are in

Rafah. It's a population density twice that of New York City with no high- rises. This is people in tents who seven months ago were in family homes, three bedroom, four bedrooms, homes done like everyone around the world,

save and put your money into brick and mortar. That's rubble.

So, they live in that environment now. And the idea that they have to move somewhere in Mawasi is sand. It will be twice the population density again.

We've seen the systematic devastation of the health system. So, they will move to a place with no hospitals at a time where children need healthcare

more than ever before, Bianna, there. They simply won't have it.

The European hospital is very near this area under fire right now, so named, because of the European donors that that put money into it. So, the

safe zones and so on, it's very important we look at that because safety has a legal term as well. Safety is not just not to be bombarded, although

that has sadly happened, safety must also mean sufficient food, water, medicines, shelter to keep someone alive.

The areas they go to, I know these areas, it's just not there. Right now, in Rafah, it's one shower for three and a half thousand people, Bianna. So,

you know, a 70-year-old woman, a pregnant mom, a teenage girl, they queue all day, maybe they get a shower. It is much worse in Mawasi. So, it

doesn't have those qualities that make it truly legally and ethically safe.

And at the same time, it's been bombed. I mean, we know of a little boy UNICEF spoke to, Mustafa (ph), or we encountered in an ICU. Mustafa (ph)

was in our Al-Mawasi. He was in that safe zone. He was going to get some parsley for his family's dinner and he was shot in the head. Mustafa, like

many others, is now -- is no longer with us.

These safe zones is a very dangerous narrative. A ceasefire is the only way children are going to sleep safely at night in the Gaza Strip.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. Rafah described as a city of children, some 600,000 of them. As far as getting aid into Rafah, I know that during the conversation

yesterday between President Biden and Prime Minister Netanyahu, obviously, this happened before Hamas then announced that they had agreed to some form

of a ceasefire. Prime Minister Netanyahu had told and reassured President Biden that the Kerem Shalom passage would remain. The crossing would remain

open and that more aid would be going in.

What more do you know about the aid that has been able to go in the past few days, the past week?

ELDER: Yes. It's so critical. So, that southern point, Kerem Shalom, is where everything gets cleared, the security check. And the Rafah Crossing,

the southernmost point in the Gaza Strip is where almost all, the vast majority of humanitarian aid goes through.

Now, remembering people have had their coping capacity physically and psychologically crushed. They are holding on by a thread. There's something

unique about the way they're doing it, Bianna. You know, you will have four families living in your house and people invite another family in because

theirs was destroyed. They break their last piece of bread, but they are hanging on.

[13:30:00]

Rafah, that crossing, is the lifeline for all the things UNICEF and all the other agencies do. Food, water, medicines. It's been closed now. It's

closed. And we don't have big warehouses in the Gaza Strip. This is day to day. You need those supplies. Fuel. Fuel is so that surgeons can operate

with light. We're about a day or two away from having no fuel again in the Gaza Strip.

So right now, it's closed. And that -- to try and prevent famine in the Gaza Strip with that border closed is almost impossible. So, as you said at

the start, catastrophe. We're -- we -- just catastrophe upon catastrophe.

And sometimes I think as a parent too, Bianna, that the number you said, 15,000 children now reportedly killed, that's tens of thousands of parents

who will wake every day in a war zone, every day with a crushing pain knowing their child is gone. This relentless ache that won't leave them.

This is what needs to end.

And let's be fair, there are two parties here and they have the power to do it. They need to see these images and to come to some sense for the

civilians.

GOLODRYGA: James Elder, spokesperson for UNICEF, thank you so much for joining us.

ELDER: Thanks, Bianna.

GOLODRYGA: Well, up next, taking quite a turn, key witnesses. The adult film star paid $130,000 to keep her alleged affair with Donald Trump's

secret takes a stand in the former president's hush money trial. Legal expert Norm Eisen tells me why this was such a big deal when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GOLODRYGA: Welcome back. Well, today in Manhattan, Stormy Daniels, the adult film star at the heart of the election interference case against

Donald Trump, is testifying for the prosecution. Daniels, whose real name is Stephanie Clifford, was paid $130,000 shortly before the 2016 election

to keep quiet about her alleged affair with Donald Trump. Now, that payment is the basis of 34 counts of falsifying business records against the former

president. Trump, we should note, denies any affair with Daniels.

Norm Eisen is a CNN legal analyst and was a special counsel in Donald Trump's first impeachment trial, and he joins us now from outside the

courthouse.

So, Norm, it's interesting now, it's all come together because earlier this morning, the former president had taken to Truth Social to write something

that he quickly then deleted about what he learned about one of the witnesses, and no one really knew who that was. And obviously, the judge's

warning about violating the gag order and saying that he won't be stopped from putting him behind bars if that's what it took. I think it all makes

sense now. We know who he was referring to given Stormy Daniels up on the stand.

[13:35:00]

NORM EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: That's right, Bianna. And she proved to be a powerful witness, a complex one. But I thought, sitting in the courtroom,

she was credible in describing the details of her 2006 encounter, sexual encounter, with Donald Trump. The -- and the -- and corroborating the

details of what we've already heard from multiple witnesses, many documents, about the critical, alleged campaign finance crime that's at the

center of this case, the 2016 payment to Ms. Daniels.

On the whole, I thought prosecutors scored more points. And I can see why the former president was upset in that initial posting on social media that

he put up and took down because she did some damage to him and really helped establish the criminal case today.

GOLODRYGA: Again, so remind our viewers, Trump has all along denied having an affair with her, though one just has to ask themselves why you would pay

-- I think, Mitt Romney famously, who said, why would someone pay $130,000 for an affair that never happened? Put that aside and explain for viewers

why her testimony and why her involvement with Donald Trump is so crucial in this case.

EISEN: This case is one for felony, falsification of business records. And to have 34 counts that, if convicted, may carry jail time for the former

president. In order to have a felony document falsification, you have to have some other crime or conspiracy that you cover up by creating false

documents.

And in this case, the alleged criminal conduct is that this payment to Ms. Daniels in 2016 was over $100,000 more than permitted campaign contribution

and that the documents were falsified, 34 of them, to hide it in 2017. So, she is at the crux of the underlying crime that is supposedly being covered

up, and prosecutors verifying every detail of that alleged criminal conspiracy with multiple witnesses, hundreds of documents.

Because as with Ms. Daniels, as we'll see on cross examination, each of these witnesses is subject to being questioned and questioned severely. So,

they want to say, you don't have to believe any one person. There's a pile of evidence. And she provided quite a bit of it this morning.

GOLODRYGA: So, aside, Norm, from your legal expertise, it's so important for us to have you on as a guest because we don't have access to what is

going on. We can't see what's going on inside the courtroom. Obviously, we have a sidebar that we show throughout most of our programming that details

some -- and highlight some significant events and questions and exchanges in the trial. But you were actually in there.

Tell us what the mood was like, what Donald Trump's demeanor was like. I believe I read that he mouthed an expletive at some point in response to

one of her statements. Give us more color.

EISEN: Well, probably the most important development was that Ms. Daniels is a loquacious witness. And she was answering some of the questions at

length. And in particular, the judge had said that he did not want a lot of details about the sex itself back in 2006 to come in because of the

prejudicial effect before the jury, and because that is, after all, although important context, not what this case is about.

So, the judge got a little impatient. And that is a plus for the defense, when the judge signals also upheld a number of objections by the defense.

So, it was a little bumpier, not as smooth as we've seen with other witnesses.

But nevertheless, as evinced by Trump's agitation, he slept at times, Bianna, not today. He, for the most part, was paying attention. He looked

at her. He looked away from her. He looked at the TV screens that we have inside the courtroom studying her.

[13:40:00]

He -- and then he became increasingly agitated because he could see the damage that she was doing, even though it was a little rocky. When we came

back from the morning break, the judge said to Trump's lawyers, have you talked to your client? And while we weren't privy to the sidebar, the

private conversation with the judge and the lawyers that led to that, I think that that was most likely a message, tell your client not to behave

that way in front of the jury. And that has been a problem in the other civil trials of Donald Trump.

So, a great deal of drama in the courtroom today. Despite all of it, the basic bottom line is the prosecution is making its case through Ms.

Daniels.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, I was going to ask you that. Given how bumpy you said some of her testimony may have been, do you think, net, that she turned out to

be, or at this point thus far, has been a credible witness for the prosecution and one that was worth them taking a risk to cross?

EISEN: No question. You know, witnesses are differently attuned to the nuances of a courtroom. And she's a talker. And the judge, because he

doesn't want some of these details, particularly the sexual details that come in, didn't want that.

But the basic takeaway -- and I watch the jury closely. I look at Trump and I look at the jury and the witness who testifies. And, of course, I've been

watching juries for over three decades. I think the jury believed her. I think they were interested. You know, they have common sense and they

understand witnesses can be nervous.

GOLODRYGA: Yes.

EISEN: Can break down in tears. We saw that with Hope Hicks, the president's former aide on Friday. Sometimes witnesses are very smooth and

consistent. David Pecker, who led off the case for the prosecution was a seamless. And sometimes they get into challenges on cross. We saw that with

Keith Davidson. And the cross of Stormy Daniels will be interesting.

GOLODRYGA: Norm. Yes. Sorry, Norm, we're just tight on time. But needless to say, I don't think there were many people sleeping during this testimony

from Stormy Daniels in that courtroom today to say the least. Norm Eisen, thank you.

EISEN: Thanks, Bianna.

GOLODRYGA: Well, next up for us, controversy and confusion, as a six-week abortion ban takes effect in Florida. Dr. Chelsea Daniels says her patients

know their bodies better than any politician, and she tells me why lives are being put at risk. That's when we're back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:45:08]

GOLODRYGA: Welcome back. Well, it has been almost one week since abortion laws dramatically changed in Florida. A six-week ban is now fully enforced,

sending some women scrambling for care, and doctors struggling to figure out how best to help their patients.

Dr. Chelsea Daniels is an abortion provider in Miami, and she joins us now. Dr. Daniels, thanks so much for taking the time. So, here we are one week

into this new law, and it's important to highlight just how draconian Florida's abortion laws have become since the overturning of Roe, because

not so long ago, they were at 24 weeks and that went to 15 weeks, and then here we are at six weeks.

It's a large state that typically performed, I think, about 80,000 abortions a year. That accounts for one in 12 abortions nationwide. I know

we're just one week in, but give us a sense of what you've seen and what's happened in that state in those few days.

DR. CHELSEA DANIELS, FLORIDA ABORTION PROVIDER: Yes. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me on to discuss this. I cannot overstate the

importance of having these conversations, because you said it, these laws are draconian and they are being imposed on patients and on communities by

people who are not medical providers and do not have the medical or scientific background to be making these kinds of decisions on behalf of

patients.

What I have seen in the past week is terror and confusion and anger, all as patients are trying to access basic essential health care. We are

unfortunately having to redirect dozens of patients. We've already had to redirect dozens of patients over the past week or so. And I just imagine

that we're going to continue to have those kinds of really challenging conversations.

GOLODRYGA: And redirecting patients isn't just going to another county. I mean, we should note that the closest state they can now go to is some 800

miles away, and that is North Carolina, who has laws that extend beyond six weeks. At this point, prior to this law going into effect, it was actually

Florida that was a destination state for many women in the south that had already been dealing with newly enforced legislation.

Give us just any anecdotes that you can of what this experience is like, the real impractical, you know, ability for women to be able to go from

Florida to North Carolina to get medical treatment.

DR. DANIELS: Yes, absolutely, I think that that's a really good point you make. Florida is geographically isolated. So, to get to the next nearest

state where care is available, that's North Carolina. And that's about a 15-hour drive. And North Carolina has a 72-hour waiting period and only

provides care to 12 weeks. So, this is not an easy ask for patients.

I see -- I saw a patient just yesterday, who was about eight weeks pregnant, was in a state of shock. She just -- she only had just found out

that she was pregnant. She wanted us to remeasure and remeasure because she was like, I can't leave. I can't take off work. I have a newborn at home. I

don't have the days off. I don't have the ability to get myself to North Carolina. What can I do? And we have resources and funds for her. But we

can't ask her employer to give the days off work. This is a really an unimaginable ask for people for what is just basic health care.

GOLODRYGA: And you're already having these conversations?

DR. DANIELS: Every day, every day. Have been having them for the last week. We had them under the 15-week ban. We have them under any kind of abortion

ban because we know that all abortion restrictions do is marginalize or mis marginalized and make it more difficult to access what is basic essential

health care. And that includes abortion.

GOLODRYGA: So, we should note -- by the way, this isn't just a woman issue, this is an issue that affects families and for many generations, because at

times it's -- there's a father involved, there are the grandparents that have to step in and help. So, this just isn't relating to women who happen

to be pregnant. This speaks to a larger community and population that's affected just because of the six-week ban when, again, most women don't

even know they're pregnant at six weeks.

There are exceptions for abortions before 15 weeks and that includes rape, incest, or human trafficking. But is it true that women have to show proof?

DR. DANIELS: That is absolutely true. And that's why I hesitate to even use the word exception. What is an exception when you have to provide legal

documentation of a crime to your doctor in order to receive medical care? I simply can't think of any other branch of medicine or any other patient

encounter where a patient is being asked to show legal proof of a crime in order to receive care.

And the sad reality is that most folks who are raped or are the victim of incest or are trafficked are unlikely to report because it is really

challenging to report and something horrible has already happened to them. And now, they have to report and then show these documents to a provider

all before 15 weeks of pregnancy.

[13:50:00]

It just is -- it is unrealistic. It is misogynistic. And it is just simply asking too much of our communities. And all it does is restrict

reproductive freedoms. It restricts our abilities to make decisions about ourselves that affect our lives, our bodies, our futures.

GOLODRYGA: In what position does it put doctors in who now face legal liability for making decisions when, you know -- I hate to say that it

maybe it may be subjective to figure out when a mother's life is at risk or when it's not and what qualifies as something that's risky and maybe her

life won't be at risk but maybe she won't be able to carry a baby again if an abortion isn't conducted?

Because we also have to remind people that it's not just women who are seeking to terminate. Some of these women just can't and they're facing

challenges or health issues. What bind does that put hospitals and doctors like yourself in?

DR. DANIELS: Yes, that's a great point too. And this is something we've seen play out in Florida already under a 15-week ban and we've seen play

out across the country in places where there are restrictions. Anytime we put restrictions on abortion, restrictions on essential basic health care,

and these restrictions are written by non-medical providers, it makes it impossible for a medical provider, such as myself to interpret the language

and to try to balance, OK, on the one side, I know what is medically and clinically indicated. But on the other side, I have legal language that I

am struggling to interpret that is trying to govern my care.

And I think what we see is that that leads to devastating outcomes for patients. There are countless stories of patients being turned away for a

medically indicated abortion procedure because doctors and hospitals and institutions are too fearful to act because of these draconian and murky

laws.

And I -- so I think we know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that what has played out in other states is going to play out in Florida and has already

played out. I think we've all heard of the patient, Anya Cook, who had her water broke early in pregnancy and she -- until she was hemorrhaging and on

the brink of death from infection, she was denied care.

GOLODRYGA: Quickly, in the final few seconds we have, what is the state's role law or policy with regards to mifepristone now?

DR. DANIELS: So, mifepristone is still legal and totally safe. But because of a six-week abortion ban, we cannot prescribe mifepristone or

misoprostol, the second combination of an abortion medication regimen beyond six weeks of pregnancy.

GOLODRYGA: So, it's still the six-week limit?

DR. DANIELS: Six-week limit. No matter the method, six weeks is what the law is telling us.

GOLODRYGA: Dr. Chelsea Daniels, thank you for your time and help --

DR. DANIELS: Thank you so much.

GOLODRYGA: -- explain the situation there in Florida now.

And finally, for us, President Biden has used a major speech at a Holocaust remembrance ceremony in Washington to denounce rising antisemitism. Take a

listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: This ancient hatred of Jews didn't begin with the Holocaust, it didn't end with the Holocaust either, or after -- even

after our victory in World War II. This hatred continues to lie deep in the hearts of too many people in the world, and requires our continued

vigilance and outspokenness.

That hatred was brought to life on October 7th in 2023, on a sacred Jewish holiday, the terrorist group Hamas unleashed the deadliest day of the

Jewish people since the Holocaust.

That's why I'm calling on all Americans to stand united against antisemitism and hate in all its forms. My dear friend, and he became a

friend, the late Elie Wiesel said, "One person of integrity can make a difference." We have to remember that, now more than ever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: Well, back in 2015, Christiane spoke to Holocaust survivor, Nobel Laureate Elie Wiesel. He told her there would never be adequate words

to describe the horrors of the Nazi death camps.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: You know. Obviously, with each passing year, the number of Holocaust survivors gets smaller,

gets less. And people ask, who's going to remember and who is going to remind? And I also, you know, have read so many stories of people who say

they could never talk about this until they were later in life. Survivors who wanted to get on with building their own life and building a new life.

[13:55:00]

What made you talk and write? And how long did it take you after liberation to be able to tell about this?

ELIE WIESEL, HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR AND NOBEL LAUREATE: Well, it took me 10 years. I knew I was going to write. I had written before, but I had written

about mysticism when I was a youngster. I was 12, 13, and I found -- I went back to my hometown and found my manuscript that I had written at age 12,

13 on Jewish mysticism, of all things. And I knew I was going to write.

But I knew one day I will have to write and I didn't find the words. I was afraid that I will not find them. I'm not even sure by the way that I did

find them. Maybe there are no words for what happened. Maybe somehow, the Germans, which means the cruel killers, have succeeded at least in one way,

that means they deprived us, the victims, of finding the proper language of saying what they have done to us. Because there are no words for it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: Elie Wiesel passed away after an illness in 2016 at the age of 87. His words, obviously, more important now than ever, one could say.

Well, that is it for now. You can always catch us online, on our podcast, and across social media. Thank you so much for watching, and goodbye from

New York.

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END