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Amanpour
Interview with Orthopedic Hand Surgeon Dr. Mark Perlmutter; Interview with Trauma, Critical Care and Acute Care Surgeon Dr. Feroze Sidhwa; Israeli Military Claims Responsibility for Strike in Beirut Suburbs; IDF Targets Hezbollah Commander in Beirut; Interview with The Atlantic Contributing Writer Kim Ghattas; Interview with Director of Research at the Soufan Group Colin Clarke. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired July 30, 2024 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN SENIOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
A heartbreaking snapshot of childhood in Gaza, where moments of joy and tragedy collide. Then, into the war zone. Two American surgeons tell me
what they saw in the operating rooms. Also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: My fellow Americans, based on all my experience, I'm certain we need these reforms.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- a bold long shot from Biden on what would be seismic changes to the Supreme Court. Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NINA JANKOWICZ, MISINFORMATION EXPERT: Women candidates for office are being targeted in droves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- the dark side of the web. Misinformation expert Nina Jankowicz brings Hari Sreenivasan into the sexist world of online abuse and
deep fakes.
Hello, everyone, welcome to the program. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
Residents of Khan Younis, Gaza are returning home after the Israeli military withdrew from the area following a week-long raid. Hopes for a
ceasefire seem no closer to fruition as negotiations drag on.
Caught up in all this chaos are innocent children. The 12 killed in the Israeli occupied Golan Heights by suspected Hezbollah rocket fire, and of
course, the many children killed in Gaza under Israeli bombardment.
Last month, the U.N. office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights estimated that nearly 15,000 children may have been killed since October
7th, a number that continues to rise.
For the children in Gaza, life under bombardment is a disorienting, violent experience, where joy and death live side by side, as Jomana Karadsheh
reports. And a warning, some of the images you're about to see are graphic.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Everything we're about to show you was filmed over the course of four hours in a single day. A
snapshot of nine months of war for Gaza's children.
Nothing can erase what these little eyes have seen, but they've come here to try to forget, even if just for a little while. Most of these children
were on their way to queue up for water, one of the newfound hardships of this miserable life, when they stop for a makeshift puppet show.
Cans, cardboard, and string, it's a distraction, but kids have to relate to their make belief friends with stories just like theirs.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): When the war happened, everything was bombed and destroyed. We were displaced to the south. Dad
was worried about us, and we are searching for safety.
KARADSHEH (voice-over): 12-year-old Hala (ph) longs for the days when she had a home in Gaza City.
HALA (PH) (through translator): Life is unlivable. I only live for my sibling and parents. Here, I stop thinking about all that's on my mind, I
watch the show and play with kids.
KARADSHEH (voice-over): This might seem like a surreal scene, but at times of war, life does go on. As does the horror.
In the same area of Gaza, injured children arrive into one of the last hardly standing hospitals. It's a constant stream of casualties from an
Israeli strike nearby. Among them, a severely injured toddler. He clings on to the stranger who brought him here. There's no room left. They leave him
on the floor. His cries, his pain, drowned out by the chaos.
Outside, another ambulance pulls up with another boy. Here, for the morgue. It wasn't the bombs that killed him, he starved to death, his father says.
As they prepare him for burial, His emaciated body lays bare for the world to see what Israel's siege has done to Gaza's most vulnerable.
JABER ABU KALOUB, FATHER OF DECEASED NINE-YEAR-OLD (through translator): Put us somewhere safe and then fight as much as you want. I wish God would
take us all and let us follow this child. I'm holding it together now, but when I leave here, I'll probably collapse. Maybe I'm pretending to be
strong. But inside, I can't take it anymore.
[13:05:00]
KARADSHEH (voice-over): A broken father like so many parents who helplessly watch their children die in their arms. Their suffering has
become a statistic by which the world that watches on measures the awfulness of this war.
His name was Mohamed Abou Kalloub (ph). He was only nine, born with cerebral palsy. He died by a garbage dump where his displaced family was
forced to camp.
Back inside the emergency room, that toddler is still on the floor, barely conscious. Surrounded by medics. But no family by his side. No one knows
his name. Thousands of children like him have arrived to hospitals injured and alone throughout this war.
We found that toddler days later at another hospital. His name is Abdul Keman Al Aqqad (ph). In intensive care, he hasn't uttered a word since the
attack. The shock is still clear behind his glassy eyes. The dirt still under his fingernails. It's his aunt who's here with him. His mother was
seriously injured.
Keman (ph) still doesn't know his 14-month-old sister is gone. Days after our cameraman filmed him in the ICU, we received the news that Keman did
not survive. He was three.
This one day, showing how fragile existence is in this place, where life, death, and stolen moments of joy meet.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Thanks to Jomana Karadsheh for that important reporting there. Well, this spring, two American doctors made the treacherous journey into
Gaza to try and offer their services in this desperate situation, but what they found was far worse than they had expected.
As they recently wrote for "Politico," "What we saw was unspeakable." Doctors Mark Perlmutter and Feroze Sidhwa joined the program to relay what
they witnessed and the urgent need for an end to the violence. Doctors, welcome to the program. Thank you so much for taking the time.
We should note that both of you volunteered at the Gaza European Hospital and in Khan Younis for two weeks at the end of March into early April and
have a combined 57 years of volunteering in disaster and war zone. So, we should commend you for your humanitarian aid all of these years, especially
now.
Let me start with you, Dr. Perlmutter. What surprised you most or stood out to you in terms of what you saw during your time there in Gaza?
DR. MARK PERLMUTTER, ORTHOPEDIC HAND SURGEON: Retrospectively, what surprised me most was not the anticipated effect of a 2,000-pound or a 500-
pound American bomb being dropped on a tent, city bombs that were designed for busting bunkers in Afghanistan, but rather how the carnage that was
induced really focused on children, healthcare workers, and journalists, those that were the most innocent, those that provided care, and those that
would report to the world the accuracy of the carnage were specifically targeted.
GOLODRYGA: When you say specifically targeted, can you go into more detail, what you mean by that?
DR. PERLMUTTER: Sure. Absolutely. We found children -- many workers found children, not just myself, that had high velocity bullet wounds, sniper
bullet wounds, rifle wounds that were dead center in the chest. I mentioned to other reporters that I couldn't put my stethoscope more dead center over
a heart than the entrance bullet hole was. There was no back to these children. The bullet had removed their entire torso.
There was similar bullet hole in two of the children's temples. So, they were shot twice. Once was certainly a kill shot. The second one was when
they were on the ground. And so, no sniper hits a child, and I'm talking toddlers twice by mistake. And so -- and that finding was duplicated by
many healthcare workers that children were specifically targeted by high velocity rifle bullet wounds.
And then, there was a plethora of health care workers with horrible stories of being specifically targeted. And then, of course, journalists were
either assassinated, not allowed back into the country, or had their equipment destroyed.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, and as you would imagine that's quite an extreme allegation to make that these civilians were indeed targeted. These are
allegations that you made in a CBS News interview. And an IDF spokesperson in response to that said that the IDF has never and will never deliberately
target children.
[13:10:00]
The IDF stressed that it calls and acts for the evacuation for civilians from combat zones. And of course, CNN cannot independently verify any of
these allegations that you've just made.
Dr. Sidhwa, let me ask you just about the context of children being the majority of those who are suffering here. UNICEF calls Gaza the world's
most dangerous place to be a child. They make up 90 percent of those seen in the ER there. Tell us specifically about nine-year-old Juri (ph), who
you treated.
DR. FEROZE SIDHWA, TRAUMA, CRITICAL CARE AND ACUTE CARE SURGEON: Sure. Juri, yes, like you mentioned, she's a nine-year-old girl. She, along with
her family, evacuated from Khan Younis to Rafah under threat. And when they got to Rafah, went to her grandparents' house. That home was bombed. Her
grandparents were killed. Some of her siblings were killed and the rest were grievously injured.
We found her in the preoperative area, actually at European Hospital, purely by accident. And the wounds she had, I don't want to go into the
details on the air, maybe if people want to see pictures and read the details, they can read that political article. But the ones she had --
GOLODRYGA: We're showing Dr. Sidhwa some --
DR. SIDHWA: Oh, thank you. I appreciate it. The wounds were just horrific. It's not something that anybody can actually fully recover from, even if
she does manage to survive. And she's thankfully in Egypt now. If -- even if she does manage to survive, she's going to be permanently disabled for
the rest of her life.
And she's just one of thousands and thousands of kids who are hurt this way. It's -- with the health care system under attack and with the health
care needs of the population so dramatically increased from what the -- any system really could provide, these children don't have much of a chance.
GOLODRYGA: So, we should note, you just said the healthcare system under attack, I do want to ask you about the lack of resources there that you and
other doctors have claimed is nonexistent at this point. The Israeli officials say they've allowed the delivery of more than 600,000 tons of
food and supplies.
Dr. Perlmutter, when you hear those numbers and counter them with what you actually see on the ground, where is the disconnect? Are these supplies
just not getting to where they need to go?
DR. PERLMUTTER: Well, I think they're being as dishonest as Netanyahu was when he spoke to our Congress. When we were there, we ran out of the
supplies that we had brought within our first week. I personally brought 700 pounds of orthopedic supplies and dressing changes, and Dr. Sidhwa
brought even more.
And there were no supplies when we got there. The supplies that we bought were exhausted by the end of our first week. And in fact, many of the
hospitals were transferring patients into the European Gaza Hospital where we were working because they ran out of supplies.
So, driving in, we saw hundreds of trucks piling up at the border, waiting to get in. When we got out of -- through the Rafah Crossing, we saw
thousands of trucks, side by side, end to end, waiting to get in. And this is when the Rafah Border was still open. They just were not allowed in.
They had Oxfam, United -- I'm sorry, the -- universally recognized relief groups, names on the sides of the trucks that were not allowed in. Tankers
of water and healthcare aides. It just was not delivered. They're being dishonest.
GOLODRYGA: And you were allowed, though, to bring the supplies you travel there with in, correct?
DR. PERLMUTTER: We were at that time. Currently, the rules are that you cannot bring any medical supplies in. Nobody is allowed in the country now
to volunteer if you have any Palestinian history in your family your grandparents or your parents were Palestinian and you were born in America,
you're not allowed in as a volunteer. You cannot bring supplies in that are more than your personal supplies. You cannot bring any medical supplies.
And so, if I was to go again next week, I'd have to bring my backpack of personal supplies. And that's it. No medical supplies would be allowed to
be transported by myself.
GOLODRYGA: The Gaza European Hospital was asked by the IDF to evacuate at the start of July. Dr. Sidhwa, can you walk us through the implications of
a hospital evacuation? The IDF will say that that's where Hamas was hiding among civilians. Obviously, you've got patients there that need to be
relocated in the midst of war. What is that process?
DR. SIDHWA: Yes. So, I think the way you said it is a bit misleading. The Israelis didn't ask European Hospital to evacuate, they forced them to
under threat of violence.
[13:15:00]
And when that's done, obviously, no hospital can withstand a direct attack from an armed military. While Mark and I were there, not only did we never
see any type of combatant whatsoever, but neither did anyone else, injured or otherwise. So, there's the claim that Hamas is running any hospital in
Gaza, let alone European Hospital where we were, is just transparently ridiculous.
The -- but, yes. No, the implications of forcibly evacuating a hospital under threat of gun and bombardment is exactly what you'd expect. The
sickest people will die. People who can make it out will make it out. Some of the physicians and nurses very bravely stayed, tried to wait until the
last moment, but eventually, they had to leave too. So, yes, it's a disaster.
GOLODRYGA: Do you have a sense of how many physicians and nurses remain in Gaza right now?
DR. SIDHWA: I don't. The medical aid for Palestinians released an update on June 26th saying that the 500th healthcare worker, the 500th Palestinian
healthcare worker in Gaza had been killed, the overwhelming majority of them were Palestinian. And that represents 2.5 percent of Gaza's health
care force. That's one out of every 40 people that works in health care in Gaza. So, it's a massive blow.
A lot more have fled. Actually, the director of the hospital that we worked at had fled just before we got there because he was constantly threatened
by the Israelis. And in fact, every hospital -- every departmental director in the -- at European Hospital showed us text messages that they had from
the Israelis threatening them, telling them to leave, telling them that we're going to get you just like we got Shifa. Things like that. It's
pretty overwhelming (ph).
GOLODRYGA: That was in the language itself, we're going to get you just like we got Shifa?
DR. SIDHWA: Yes.
DR. PERLMUTTER: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: Dr. Perlmutter, I know that you treated a local health care worker by the name of Tamir (ph).
DR. PERLMUTTER: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: Can you tell us a little bit about him?
DR. PERLMUTTER: Sure. And this story will argue against the accusations that --or the claims of the IDF that nobody was targeted, no innocent
person was targeted. Tamir is an orthopedic nurse. He was in the operating room, closing a wound after a surgery when an Israeli soldier came into
another hospital, not the one we were working in. This is a hospital that was already occupied by the IDF. They ordered him to abandon the patient
who he was closing the wound on. He refused to do so.
So, he was shot in the knee. His proximal tibia bone or his shin bone was sent across the room. He was obviously unconscious from that assault. He
was then operated on. He recovered the next day, consciousness. The next day, he was taken prisoner by the Israelis and taken into Israel to an
Israeli prison.
He was handcuffed. He was blindfolded for 45 days. He received absolutely no wound care. He was fed a juice box by his report to me, sometimes every
day, mostly every other day. And then, on the 45th day, after they discovered that he wasn't Hamas, they let him go by dumping him on the side
of the road on the other side of the border.
He crawled for three kilometers. His wound is now horribly infected. As a goodbye present, they gave him a rifle butt in his right eye. They blew out
his globe, meaning that he's blind forever. And he crawled and was picked up by a passerby and was brought to the hospital where we took care of him.
GOLODRYGA: OK.
DR. PERLMUTTER: So, he was tortured. He was starved, tortured, totally abused, received no medical care, and initially shot when he didn't have to
be shot for doing his job delivering health care.
GOLODRYGA: And again, we should note that CNN has reached out to the IDF for comment on this. Obviously, we can't independently verify these
allegations and the disturbing description that you just provided us.
As we close here, Dr. Sidhwa, there is concern now about traces of polio being found in the sewage in Gaza. The WHO said that they would send more
than a million polio vaccines. I guess this goes to my earlier question in terms of medical care providers that are currently there. Somebody has to
administer these vaccines. Is that feasible?
DR. SIDHWA: It's feasible. I mean, anybody can give an injection. But the problem with vaccinating a malnourished population is that if your immune
system doesn't work, your -- the vaccine is pretty much useless.
The World Health Organization's own reports say that they've been able to take absolutely no action to thwart the epidemics that are going on in Gaza
right now, and they specifically say, because of Israeli restrictions on admission of basic supplies. You know, we had no soap at European Hospital.
And European Hospital, when we were there, was the best resourced hospital in the entire Strip. No soap. No meaningful supplies like Mark mentioned.
[13:20:00]
Other hospitals were far worse off. So, yes, and a vaccine campaign would be good. And it could only help, but it's certainly not the answer to the -
- this problem. The answer to this problem is a ceasefire and to stop the destruction of Gaza.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, and this is found in some of the testimony that you've given to Congress in Washington recently along these lines. Doctors Mark
Perlmutter and Feroze Sidhwa, thank you so much for joining us.
DR. SIDHWA: Thanks.
DR. PERLMUTTER: My pleasure.
GOLODRYGA: Well, we turn now to breaking news just into CNN. A loud explosion was heard in the southern suburbs of Beirut, according to
Hezbollah-run Al Manar TV agency. The Israeli military took responsibility, saying that it carried out a targeted strike on the Hezbollah commander
they say is responsible for last Saturday's Majdal Sham's attack. The area is a populous part of Beirut and a stronghold of the Iran-backed group.
Correspondent Ben Wedeman is in Beirut and joins us now. And, Ben, we're just getting news of this strike across our wires, too. It appears the fate
of this target is yet unknown. What more do we know at this point?
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, basically what we know is that within the last half hour, there were these large
explosions in what we call the southern suburbs of Beirut, but that is really Beirut proper where, of course, among hundreds of thousands of
civilians, there are some of the leaders of Hezbollah operating from there.
Now, according to the state-run national news agency, this was a drone strike involving three missiles. There are reports that it hit a
residential building, and there are reports of casualties. Now, this is definitely the most significant escalation since the outbreak of
hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah and other militias here in Lebanon since the 8th of October.
And certainly, what we know is that Hezbollah has made it clear that they will meet escalation, which -- with escalation, which is the terms they
use. Essentially, they've always maintained that a strike on the southern suburbs of Beirut for them is a red line and they will respond accordingly.
Now, we don't know specifically. We've seen the statements from the Israeli side talking about, you know, it's a major leader within Hezbollah, but we
have yet to see any details about who might have been the actual target. I've tried to contact sources in Hezbollah at the moment, they're not
answering. But certainly, this raises tensions, really skyrockets the tensions at the moment. And there's no question that some point there's
going to be some sort of response from Hezbollah for this strike on Beirut. Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, no doubt Hezbollah was anticipating some sort of response from Israel following that attack that killed 12 children on Saturday, it's
just a question of what that response would be, would it be measured enough to avoid an all-out war, an opening of a new front? That is yet to be
determined. Correspondent Ben Wedeman is in Beirut. Ben, come back to us if you have any more news that you can deliver in terms of who this target
was.
In the meantime, let's bring in Lebanese journalist Kim Ghattas. She joins me now from Beirut. First of all, Kim, I'm just wondering, tell us more
about this neighborhood. It appears to be a southern suburb of Beirut. Did you hear anything yourself?
KIM GHATTAS, CONTRIBUTING WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: I did actually, yes. I live not too far from the southern suburbs of Beirut. I live just, let's
say, on the outskirts of the center of the city and the southern suburbs are to my south, sorry, and very close to the airport.
This was a strike, as Ben was saying, conducted with a drone and quite targeted. I do want to remind your viewers that we've seen something like
this before, in January of this year, when Israel also conducted a targeted assassination of a senior Hamas leader in January -- on the 2nd of January.
And at the time as well, we thought that this was perhaps the beginning of a massive escalation. Everybody then stepped back from the brink. And we'll
have to see how Hezbollah reacts to this assassination, which is now most probably -- details are still emerging, most probably targeted one of their
own and likely a senior member of the group as well.
[13:25:00]
We have been expecting this to begin since the rocket attack that killed children on the Israel occupied Syrian Golan Heights on Saturday. And it
has been a nerve-wracking war off of nerves since then. The Lebanese have been sitting on tenterhooks, wondering what this escalation might look like
and trying to take some comfort from the statements coming out of the White House, saying that they don't believe that this will lead to an all-out war
and an all-out escalation and that diplomacy can still make headway.
But it's clear that Israel was going to retaliate, and it's also clear that Hezbollah will then as well, retaliate again. The question is whether all
of this can be choreographed in such a way that it remains contained.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And I'm just seeing that Amos Harel, who we've had on this program quite frequently for reporter and intelligence military reporter
for Haaretz, is reporting that the IDF targeted Fuad Shukr in this strike, he is considered the Hezbollah number two man in charge and responsible for
the terror organization's military activities. Of course, CNN cannot confirm this. This is just reporting from Amos Harel of Haaretz who we
frequently have on for this very subject matter.
I am wondering, Kim, there, as we noted, had been an anticipatory response. The United States had given that warning, obviously, the Lebanese to their
citizens as well. Just a matter of what that response would look like. If this is it, and again, this is just within the last few minutes. So, we
have no idea whether there will be more. I know there was a lot of concern about a massive strike to Beirut itself. Is there comfort at all in this
being an apparent targeted strike at this point?
GHATTAS: As you said, Bianna, it's really only possibly the beginning. There's been a lot of speculation, a lot of rumors about what this is going
to be like. Is it going to be a multi-day targeted operation? Is it going to be one long night of airstrikes? We simply don't know.
What we do know is that all sides expected that this would happen. The Israelis made clear they were going to retaliate. I think messages have
been passed on to Hezbollah, most likely through envoys, the U.S., et cetera, saying, this is going to happen, and messages to the Lebanese
government to pass on to Hezbollah for their response then to be restrained as well. So, that, as I said, it remains somewhat contained.
But this is a very dangerous moment, because you can choreograph these things or try to choreograph, you can telegraph intentions, but these are
not war games. This is real-life.
GOLODRYGA: Yes.
GHATTAS: I think that what all sides are trying to pull off is something similar to what we saw in April, when Iran and Israel exchanged drones and
missiles, and that was a scary moment. It was telegraphed in advanced and managed and contained. And then the Biden administration told Israel to
basically take the win. And we'll have to see whether everybody can pull this off again now.
But the dangers are humongous. And the impact on civilians everywhere remains, you know, terrifying. Every time we have these moments where we
step closer to the brink, it's going to become harder to step back and contain it. And that's why we need a ceasefire in Gaza, a hostage deal, and
that can then have also a positive impact on the border clashes between Hezbollah and Israel.
GOLODRYGA: Right. Because to remind our viewers, the reason these two are connected, the war in Gaza now and what we're seeing in the north since
October 8th, and the missiles and the back and forth between Israel and Hamas is that Hamas says that they won't stop until the war in Gaza stops,
and here we are on the precipice, perhaps, of a deal, and then here comes this strike killing 12 children on Saturday.
And it is notable that you reference that drone strike by Iran against Israel, 300 projectiles. The first time there had been a direct strike from
Iran targeting Israel. Now, as you say, things -- most of those drones, if not all of them, were shot down, but that in and of itself was an
escalatory step that hadn't been seen before. So, in terms of crossing red lines, that was in response to Israel targeting IRGC, senior IRGC Iranian
officials in Syria a few weeks prior to that.
[13:30:00]
So, to your point, everything may appear to be measured. You just don't know where one miscalculation may lead to a wider regional conflict. Yoav
Gallant, the defense minister in Israel, we should note, just tweeted, Hezbollah crossed the red line. And his public messaging has been a bit
more tempered than some on the far-right extreme of the Israeli government following that attack on Saturday. What do you read into this statement,
Hezbollah crossed the red line?
GHATTAS: The tragic killing of children on the Golan Heights was the largest loss of civilian life over the last nine months since October 7th
on the Israeli side, or I should say on, in this case with, the Golan Heights, Israeli occupied territory. The children and young people who were
killed that day were not actually Israeli citizens, but there have been calls, of course, from within Israel to use that moment to deal with the
problem of Hezbollah. This is all in the context of a devastating war in Gaza, of course, which has been going on for 10 months and thousands of
people have been killed and, you know, Gaza lays in ruins.
Now, there has been -- there have been these border clashes between Hezbollah and Israel since October 8th. Hezbollah said that they were doing
this in support of Hamas. And as you pointed out, they've insisted that they will not stop until the war in Gaza comes to an end.
The contours of a deal between Lebanon and Israel, and by extension Hezbollah, to bring this to an end on the border are known, but they remain
conditional on an end of hostilities, a cessation of firing, a ceasefire, whatever we want to call it in Gaza, and Hezbollah has not backed down from
that.
What happened on Saturday, I think, was a tragic accident. There are different interpretations of what may have happened. We heard even from
Israeli military sources that they think it was an errant Hezbollah rocket. Because Hezbollah had no real reason to want to kill Druze Arabs on Syrian
territory because it does not suit their interest in Lebanon, where they're trying to repair frayed ties with the Druze community and also with the
Druze community in Syria itself.
But that goes to the point of what I'm saying, you can manage and try to contain and play by rules of engagement. And at some point, something's
going to go wrong. And inevitably, civilians die, and that's the tragic thing about where we are today. It's fine to talk about these things as,
you know, geopolitics and diplomacy, but the consequences for the people on the ground in Gaza, in Israel, in Syria, in Lebanon are tremendous.
I want to remind your viewers that Lebanon's been through a lot over the last four years. We're coming up on the fourth anniversary of the Beirut
port explosion of 2020 on the 4th of August. The largest -- one of the largest non-nuclear explosions in modern history. So, there's a lot of
layers of trauma in Lebanon that people are dealing with, and nerves are fraying. And nobody wants to see more of this.
So, it's really time for diplomacy, for focused diplomacy and pressure on leaders in power on both sides to try to get to this deal so this region
can get on a slightly more positive trajectory.
GOLODRYGA: If -- and I, again, go back to this reporting from Amos Harel, if this target was a senior Lebanese -- a senior Hezbollah official, their
number two considered, Fuad Shukr, how significant of a blow is that to the organization?
GHATTAS: Hezbollah likes to say that no one is irreplaceable and that they have many more commanders who can rise. We have seen at least 400 medium
ranking to senior Hezbollah commanders be killed by Israeli strikes over the last nine months. It all depends on how Hezbollah wants to play the
next move.
I suspect they're keen to make sure as well that this doesn't escalate into an all-out war, but they will have their red lines as well. And it's very
possible that some point somebody misreads the intentions of the other party.
[13:35:00]
Hezbollah, of course, is a proxy, an ally, a partner of Iran. And it's important to take into consideration Iran's intentions and needs at the
moment. They also don't want a regional war. They're very busy with domestic politics. They just have a new president elected after the killing
of -- the death of President Raisi in a helicopter crash. They're going to be dealing with a succession to the supreme leader. They're very concerned
with internal domestic stability.
They don't want to be in a regional war, and they don't want to use or waste their most precious asset in the region, which is Hezbollah. They
don't want to use it at this point for just an escalation. They would like to save this -- a key partner of theirs in the event that Iran itself
becomes a target in a future escalation. So, these are all the concerns and calculations that the different parties are making in the region.
And if I may, Bianna, just add one more point. Israel has often said that they want to eliminate Hezbollah or Hamas, in this case, as they've been
trying over the last nine months, but history shows in Lebanon and many Israeli intelligence officials have warned about this, history shows that
there is no military victory for Israel in a war against Hezbollah. There is only devastation for both sides.
In 2006, Hezbollah and Israel went to war. The intention as well in Israel was to eliminate Hezbollah. It did not happen. And 18 years later,
Hezbollah is more powerful than ever and has 150,000 missiles that it can launch at Israel, which is what is keeping Israel as well somewhat guarded
and how far it goes in this escalation. And, you know, to repeat myself, we need diplomacy. We need a ceasefire.
GOLODRYGA: The ceasefire in Gaza is what you're talking about, because, as we noted earlier, that the two are related at this point. The U.S.
continues to push to avoid escalation between Israel and Hezbollah. I do want to thank you, Kim Ghattas, for joining us. Stay safe. Appreciate the
time.
Well, we want to turn now back to our correspondent Ben Wedeman who is standing by in Beirut. As we note, Ben, we're expecting to hear from the
State Department. Their message throughout all of this process was to avoid escalation. There had been anticipation of a response following that strike
that killed 12 children Saturday by the Israelis. It appears this is what we have seen play out in just the last few minutes. What more are you
hearing?
WEDEMAN: Well, what we're hearing, Bianna, from local media is that least two people were killed and many more injured as a result of this strike,
which happened very near a hospital in that area. So, apparently, it is not easy to go to that part of town as well. Several media crews have gone
there and have been stopped from filming by local supporters for Hezbollah.
But certainly, if I look around me, the amount of traffic seems to have diminished significantly. As Kim was saying, there has been anticipation of
this strike ever since the events in the Golan Heights on Saturday evening. But certainly, the expectation was the strike would happen perhaps very,
very late at night rather than sometime just before 8:00 p.m. in the evening local time.
Now, we shall see if this is going to affect the amount of planes flying into Beirut. Air France announced today that it was resuming flights. That
might change. But others, for instance, like Lufthansa, have postponed flights in and out of Beirut until August 5th.
Now, we're waiting for some sort of comment from the Lebanese government, but when I spoke to the Lebanese foreign minister the other day, he did
underscore that even though they speak regularly with senior members of Hezbollah, that Hezbollah is -- largely does what it wants to do, and the
government itself is largely helpless in determining the course of events when it comes to Hezbollah's actions. Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: I think we're -- we were looking at live images, I may be mistaken, on the streets there in Lebanon. But if you -- excuse me, yes,
they were live? This is tape. Sorry. These are not live images that we're looking at now. If we could go back to Ben. As you noted, this is not in
the middle of the night, this is early evening in Beirut.
Now, just describe to us the mood. It appears to be rather quiet where you are. But what more are you hearing from residents there in response?
[13:40:00]
WEDEMAN: Yes, it's relatively quiet, although, there is a fair amount of traffic below me. We're not in the immediate area where this strike took
place. But people are worried. There has been a sense -- you know, tensions have been going up and down in Lebanon since October. And to a certain
extent, people have become accustomed, rather jaded to it.
And what we've seen, certainly this summer, is that a huge number of Lebanese from the diaspora have come that it's been a fairly good summer
for tourism in Lebanon despite all of this, but now, I think, you know, the mood is going to change dramatically since, as Kim noted, this was the
first strike on Beirut since the 2nd of January, this year, when a Hamas leader was assassinated by the Israelis.
So, this is going to definitely change the mood in the city from one of, sort of, we've seen it all, what can -- what else can happen to now, it's
getting serious. And I think people who, since October, have been talking about perhaps stocking up on supplies, on fuel, I think that talk is going
to resume again with the fear that this isn't a one-off strike, that indeed Hezbollah will strike back in one form or another.
Now, I've noted, I've seen that there are reports that Hezbollah is claiming that this Israeli attack failed in assassinating a senior member
of Hezbollah. We have yet to get it actually confirmed from the source. But certainly, all of these events are going to change the mood in this city
dramatically. Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: And we'll be coming back to you every few minutes then, Ben, as we continue to get more information in. Please bring us anything that
you're hearing and interrupt and let us know. We'll come back to you in just a few minutes.
In the meantime, let's go to Israel. Jeremy Diamond who's following the developments from Jaffa there. And, Jeremy, as we noted the Israeli defense
minister had tweeted earlier that Hamas had crossed a red line. That just moments after reports of this strike. What more are you hearing? I'm sorry,
Hezbollah crossed a red line.
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Well, it is -- yes, yes. Bianna, it is very clear from this strike that Israel wanted to send a very
decisive message in response for what they say was a Hezbollah rocket attack in Majdal Shams that killed 12 children. The Israeli military, by
striking the southern suburbs of Beirut, is making very clear that, as the defense minister said, they believe that Hezbollah crossed a red line, and
therefore, Israel is going to take an escalatory step here by striking in that area near the capital of Beirut.
We know, of course, that the Israeli military is saying that they targeted the commander responsible for the attack on Majdal Shams but they have not
yet released his name. What is also interesting in the statement from the Israeli military is that they're saying that there are no changes as of now
to the home front guidance, which is the kind of guidance that they would issue if they are expecting some kind of immediate retaliation from
Hezbollah, some kind of a heightened posture of readiness for civilians.
We saw changes to that guidance, for example, after Iran -- as Iran was preparing to carry out its attack on Israel several months ago. And so, it
is notable to see that they are saying no changes in the home front command defensive guidelines. And they said that if any changes are made, that an
update will be released.
Now, as you said, the Israeli defense minister has said that Hezbollah crossed the red line and therefore, that is why Israel carried out the
strike that it did in the location that it did. We are also hearing from Itamar Ben-Gvir, the Minister of National Security, a member of the far-
right, who is saying, every dog shall have his day.
So, we are only just, of course, beginning to get Israeli political reaction to these strikes. But of course, now, the question about what
happens next will be a question that will be answered most likely in Lebanon by Hezbollah as they deliberate on how they will respond to this
latest attack.
We've been talking, of course, Bianna, for the last few days about this strike on Majdal Shams and the way in which it could potentially tilt this
region into all-out war, tilt this long simmering conflict between Israel and Hezbollah into a full-blown war. And now, with this strike in the
southern suburbs of Beirut, that is a very real possibility. But again, we do not have the answer yet. And a lot of this will depend now on the other
side, on Hezbollah, and on how they choose to respond to this latest Israeli strike.
[13:45:00]
GOLODRYGA: And can you elaborate more, Jeremy, on a point, you just made a crucial point, that there had been no change thus far in command for the
IDF there the north, suggesting that perhaps Israel does not expect this to open a much larger second front, or at least at this point?
DIAMOND: So, I should be clear actually, this is the home front command guidelines, and these are the guidelines given to civilians in Israel.
GOLODRYGA: OK.
DIAMOND: So, this is effectively putting civilians on what kind of posture of readiness they should be to be able to rush to a bomb shelter, for
schools to be closed, for large gatherings to be closed. The types of things that we saw as we awaited the Iranian response to an Israeli strike
on a diplomatic compound in Damascus, Syria.
So, we saw the changes then, we are not seeing them now, which indicates that perhaps Israel is not anticipating an immediate response from
Hezbollah. And we should also note that that is perhaps also because of the fact that for the last several days there have been -- there has been a
flurry of diplomatic activity trying to ensure that even as there was a recognition that Israel would have to carry out some kind of significant
strike in Lebanon to show that this was unacceptable, that this crossed a red line, that this would also perhaps not tilt into that full-blown war.
So, there is obviously a lot going on behind the scenes that we are not privy to, but you can make no doubt about it that there have been efforts
to back-channel efforts to anticipate this Israeli strike on the Lebanese side, and now, of course, we will wait and see what happens.
GOLODRYGA: Thank you so much for that important clarification. We should also tell viewers that the images -- the video you were just seeing was
taken just a few moments ago, immediately in the aftermath of that strike. As you can tell, it was still -- there was still a bit more daylight. And
now, obviously, it is evening hours there. Jeremy, we'll come back to you if you have any other news to report for us. Thank you.
And we're joined now by Chief National Security Analyst Jim Sciutto in Washington. Also with us, Colin Clarke, director of research at the Soufan
Group, the Global Intelligence and Security Consultants. He joins us from New York.
Jim, let me start with you. Obviously, the U.S. had been closely monitoring this, the State Department, the secretary of defense making comments over
the last 24 hours that they think escalation can be avoided, obviously in anticipation of unexpected Israeli strike back in response to that deadly
strike Saturday, killing 12 children. Is this the type of response you think the U.S. was assuming would take place?
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF U.S. SECURITY ANALYST: Listen, the administration view, to your point, Bianna, has been that they don't believe that this
will escalate to a broader regional war. Of course, the trouble is, right, they don't know each side's red lines here and they also don't know how far
each side is willing to push up close to those red lines.
You'll remember that yesterday when the Lebanese foreign minister spoke to our colleague Ben Wedeman, he said that their understanding of what a
limited response by Israel would be, would mean no attack on the Beirut airport or the Beirut suburbs. Now, you have a strike inside Beirut itself,
on a Hezbollah stronghold, still not clear whether it was a successful strike, regardless, it's one right in the middle of quite an urban area
there.
So, now, the question becomes, how does Hezbollah read this and how does it react? And the trouble with escalation scenarios, right, is that you don't
quite know how each party, each player is going to react and how each will read the other side's intentions here.
But listen, this is a strike in an urban area, possibly a deadly strike, not clear if it got its target, but in what was already a volatile mix of
factors here, this is yet one more spark, and it -- we'll have to watch very closely how the parties respond to this, but it's a dangerous -- it's
a dicey time there.
GOLODRYGA: And now, we are looking at live images from Beirut, just about 40 minutes or so, a little under an hour since that strike. If I could go
to you, Colin, and get you to weigh in here, because in the moments after this strike we have a post on X by the Israeli defense minister, Yoav
Gallant, saying that Hezbollah had crossed a red line. That is the only statement we've heard from him thus far.
And it's notable because he was one of the few military officials immediately after October 7th who had been advocating for a preemptive
attack on Hamas before the IDF even went in to Gaza, and that was refuted and knocked down by the prime minister and obviously, the United States,
putting a lot of pressure on Israel not to do that and open another front with Hezbollah. Your reaction now to this strike, apparently the target
being a high-ranking official in Hezbollah.
[13:50:00]
COLIN CLARKE, DIRECTOR OF RESEARCH AT THE SOUFAN GROUP: Thank you for having me. Look, we've all been expecting Israeli retaliation. They
promised it. They've now delivered it. I think this was, at least, in my perspective, perhaps a bit more escalatory than even I was anticipating.
The Israelis have said this is the end of their response, now shifting the onus back to Hezbollah. And the Israelis are no doubt poised and preparing
for a Hezbollah response.
The question becomes how full-throated is that response? And a lot will depend on who the individual was that was targeted. Clearly, a provocative
act to go after the Hezbollah Shura (ph) Council right in the heart of the southern suburbs of Beirut, Hezbollah stronghold.
There are some rumors floating around that this could be Fuad Shukr, involved closely with Hezbollah military operations, including somebody
linked all the way back to the Beirut barracks bombings in the early 1980s. So, high-ranking, we just don't know yet. The rumor mill is swirling. And I
think the region again on edge, anticipating a Hezbollah response.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, that, that name, Fuad Shukr, is also who I've been attributing Amos Harel, the Israeli intelligence reporter for Haaretz, has
been citing as well as the target. Colin, what more do we know about him?
CLARKE: Again, an individual that is very close to the highest echelons of Hezbollah leadership, long, detailed, deep history with the organization
and someone who would be perceived at least within Hezbollah bowl as a very, very major loss and somebody that Hezbollah would likely retaliate
for -- back against the Israelis. And I think the real concern here is that this spirals out of control, right?
SCIUTTO: Yes.
CLARKE: This miscalculates and then leads to a broader conflagration.
GOLODRYGA: And, Jim, is this something you would imagine that Israel consulted their U.S. partners with ahead of time? And how would you imagine
now as we're waiting for the U.S. to officially respond?
SCIUTTO: Listen, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, right? And there's been U.S. peak, if you want to call it that, for not being warned
in the advance of some strikes like this. And I would agree with Colin that in the realm of possible retaliatory strikes, this one appears to be fairly
aggressive. And again, you know, inside an urban area at senior leadership. So, it's a dangerous time and we have to factor that in, and this seems to
be pushing the limits to some degree.
The other point I would make, Bianna, is that be conscious of the political support for military action in Lebanon, in Israel. I was in Northern Israel
in the weeks and days following October 7th, and as you know, still to this day, many tens of thousands of Israelis, they've been forced to flee south.
They still can't go back to their homes because of the level of fire in the north. It's just not considered safe there.
And when I asked folks then, and I still ask them now, should the Israeli military go into Southern Lebanon? And their answer, and you hear this from
residents and you hear this from officials, is that it's not a matter of if, but when. You know, they use this language, finish the job against
Hezbollah. So, you do have a well of political support for military action there, even knowing, you know, the severe, severe risks of broadening this
conflict. And that's for something, right, Bianna, that would be a major ground incursion as opposed to an isolated strike like this.
So, there's political support in Israel for something bigger. And listen, you know, the region is watching this very closely.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And, Colin, I mean, that goes back to the earlier point made by the defense minister to target a tougher, much larger, more
powerful enemy before going into Gaza, where now we're entering 10 months of fighting there. There may be support among Israelis and the war cabinet
to now turn and enter a new front here. But is there enough bandwidth among the IDF, among the resources that Israel now has at its disposal, knowing
that a large part of that will likely have to come, once again, from allies, including the U.S.?
CLARKE: That's a great point, right? And so, kind of a political push is something totally separate from military capabilities sustaining that. I
think the Israelis -- again, the IDF is a world class military organization, but it's got its hands full in Gaza. Now, you add to that the
northern front, a potential war with Hezbollah, and you're talking about really kind of pulling in the entire region into a war that nobody claims
that they want.
And then, you have the U.S. position as well, coming on the heels of Netanyahu's visit. This is really, I think, a kind of nightmare scenario
where you have all these factors converging to lead to this kind of escalation. And I think this is probably among the most tense, the reach
has been since October 7th. I know it's -- there's been several inflection points similar, the April missile and drone barrage and several other
incidents.
[13:55:00]
But this is real danger that we're looking at now. We're on the precipice of something potentially major kind of opening up this other front. And
several guests, including Kim Ghattas, you know, have referenced what the 6th war was like, this is going to be far more disastrous if it goes
forward. An arsenal of 150,000 missiles and precision guided rockets, this would be, you know, disastrous for the region for Lebanon and for Israel.
GOLODRYGA: And as we end our show here, we have reporting that least one has been killed. One person has been killed in this strike. Also, reporting
from our Jennifer Hansler, who covers the State Department, that the U.S. told -- Israel told the U.S. prior to the strike about their intentions
here about their strike on a Hezbollah stronghold in Southern Beirut. The source says that it was given a heads up and conveyed through security
channels. They did not say when that information was given or whether the specific target was given as well. Jim Sciutto, Colin, thank you so much
for joining us.
And stay with CNN for more breaking news on the strike in Beirut after this short break.
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[14:00:00]
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