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Amanpour
Interview with CNN Contributor, "Joe Biden: The Life, the Run, and What Matters Now" Author and The New Yorker Staff Writer Evan Osnos; Interview with DNC Chair Jaime Harrison; Interview with "Job" Writer Max Wolf Friedlich; Interview with "Job" Actor Peter Friedman; Interview with "Job" Actress Sydney Lemmon; Interview with Musician, Songwriter and Producer Jack Antonoff. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired August 23, 2024 - 13:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT AND U.S. PRESIDENTIAL DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE: Together, let us write the next great chapter in the most
extraordinary story.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Kamala Harris' big moment. The VP takes center stage in her quest to become America's first female president.
Then, DNC Chair Jaime Harrison talks to Walter Isaacson about the historic week in Chicago and the challenges Democrats face ahead of November.
Plus, where Broadway meets the internet. I speak to the talents behind the hit play "Job," a tense thriller about the digital world wreaking havoc in
our lives.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
Well, in the end, history may have been made in record time. Just over one month since President Biden reluctantly dropped out of the race, Kamala
Harris has become the first woman of color to become a major party's presidential nominee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT AND U.S. PRESIDENTIAL DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE: On behalf of my mother and everyone who has ever set out on
their own unlikely journey, on behalf of Americans like the people I grew up with, people who work hard, chase their dreams, and look out for one
another, on behalf of everyone whose story could only be written in the greatest nation on earth, I accept your nomination to be president of the
United States of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: But amidst the euphoria on display among Democrats this week, there has been a tangible strain of caution threaded throughout the DNC.
Speaker after speaker reminded viewers that the race will be close, with polls showing that it's still a tossup.
So, what did last night's speech teach us about how the rest of this story -- this short campaign will play out and what do the Republicans need to do
to recapture the momentum? Let's get some insight from Evan Osnos who wrote an acclaimed biography of President Joe Biden. Welcome to the program from
Chicago, Evan. It is good to see you.
You know, we had our show meeting this morning and we all joked, but I think there's some seriousness to this, that this has been a year that
actually has been just a month. I mean, it has been insane what has happened in just the course of four weeks. I'm wondering if you've ever
experienced something quite like this in your career.
EVAN OSNOS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, AUTHOR, "JOE BIDEN: THE LIFE, THE RUN, AND WHAT MATTERS NOW" AND STAFF WRITER, THE NEW YORKER: No, we're doing
politics and history at light speed at this point, Bianna. I mean, it's -- it is really just sort of staggering to think how different this convention
might have been had Joe Biden still been the nominee. I think you saw at the beginning of the week, a tremendous outpouring of gratitude to him, not
only for the foundation upon which now Kamala Harris is building this last 70 days of the campaign.
But also, let's be honest, it's also for him stepping aside for making that rarest of political choices to give up power. And just the sheer pace of
that transformation and everything that it implies about how you run against Republicans, how Donald Trump will respond, it has all been turned
upside down.
GOLODRYGA: And while Donald Trump has been depicting Kamala Harris as not only aligned with the Biden campaign and all the flaws that they've been
elaborating on that they say emanated from this administration, but also, he's trying to paint her as a communist, socialist, radical leftist.
And last night and this week, I would say, we've really seen from all of those who we heard from and then ending with Kamala Harris herself
describing herself as the change candidate, but also the moderate candidate who is the sane candidate of these two. Do you think she was effective in
doing that?
[13:05:00]
OSNOS: It was very noticeable, Bianna, that essentially, the portrait that she was presenting of herself and of the party was in stark contrast to
what is increasingly a set of policy positions that Trump and J. D. Vance hold that are just wildly out of step with where Americans are.
Take last night the way she talked about abortion and reproductive rights, the idea that Republicans would come in and institute the plans they've
talked about that would require a child, a victim of rape or sexual abuse to have to carry a child's term because of where they live and things like
that, it just strikes people as offensive to how we perceive our system to work.
And I think the subtle subtext, and in some cases, the explicit goal was to say to people, I have lived a life like yours, I live a life like yours
today, I have a blended family. We are a story of America that is relatable and that we are not operating in some esoteric world of ideology and policy
that feels that feels unapproachable.
And, you know, I think that you -- there was a powerful clip that you ran earlier, just a moment ago, about how she said, together we will turn a
page to write, essentially, a new chapter in the American story. That's three big ideas. Together, one, is a very unifying concept. She's not just
speaking to Democrats. In fact, she never mentioned the Democratic Party in her speech. She talked about America over and over again. She also said
this is an American story, reclaiming, in a sense, the idea that a Democratic candidate can speak on behalf of America and patriotic values.
And then, of course, the key idea is a new chapter. You know, this is not only just a reference to Donald Trump as sort of a return to the experience
we all had four years ago, but also, a recognition that by supplanting Joe Biden on the ticket, that she has really begun this process of a new
generation stepping in.
GOLODRYGA: And we've seen a slight refocus from her campaign as opposed to what we saw with Biden's campaign really focusing on democracy. It seems
that Kamala Harris is more focused on freedom and specifically reproductive rights for women. And that's -- the way she characterized Donald Trump, not
necessarily as a threat to democracy. she called him an unserious man who could do serious harm to the country, given some of his policies,
specifically as it relates to freedoms, including freedoms for women and reproductive rights. I want to play some sound for you from what she said
about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: He plans to create a national anti-abortion coordinator and force states to report on women's miscarriages and abortions. Simply put, they
are out of their minds.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: What do you make of that strategy? We heard it from the Obamas in a sense too, mocking Donald Trump. Kamala Harris saying he's not a
serious person, calling the Republicans at his agenda and his strategy they're out of their minds. Do you think that's going to work?
OSNOS: You know, this idea of using freedom as a central -- as the central idea of the campaign, in fact, does predate Kamala Harris' rolled the top
of the ticket. In fact, if you go back and you listen to the very first word in the first ad that Joe Biden ran in this campaign, the first word
was freedom. There was this feeling among his political advisers that this was an opportunity for Democrats because of these kinds of intrusions into
private life that Americans were seeing from Republicans.
But the truth is, and this is -- gets to the core of the political moment we're in now, the messenger matters as much as the message. And when it
comes from Kamala Harris, the way in which she can talk about abortion with a full-throated sense of credibility on the question, in a way that Joe
Biden frankly could not, it is more powerful, and it has just landed very differently with the public.
And, you know, I think it is not as much about raising the sense of alarm about Donald Trump, that is still very much a part of her message, but
she's actually saying to Americans that it is OK to laugh at this man. It is OK to say that he's not normal to say that he's weird, to use the term
we've all been hearing for weeks now. That has turned out to be very powerful combination to point out both the unseriousness of the person and
the seriousness of the consequences.
GOLODRYGA: And that seems to really have gotten under Trump's skin. He still hasn't been able to find an effective attack on Kamala Harris on this
ticket yet and flailing, really? I mean, you have his advisers who are really desperate for him to stay on message and focus on the policies and
specifics, and he still is looking for that lane to where he can go on the personal attack, and it's not working in the way that it may have in the
past.
[13:10:00]
I also noticed this week, and I'm not the only one, a difference in how Democrats are embracing patriotism and joy and the future of the country.
You saw many nights where you -- there were chants repeatedly USA, you heard Kamala Harris talk about how exceptional this country is, and yes,
there are still problems that need to be addressed, but only in this country could the daughter of two immigrants now be the candidate for the
Democratic Party for president.
And Peggy Noonan even picked up on it today. She said, they still, traditional Republican themes of faith and patriotism and claimed their --
claim them as their own. How do you think that's going to be viewed specifically among those targeted voters, the undecided, and the
independents?
OSNOS: Yes, it's turned out to be really an important theme here. I had a conversation with somebody on the sidelines of the convention who is
looking at voter attitudes, studying focus groups, doing polls. And what she said was that there was this reservoir of energy of people particularly
out in these suburban areas who felt as if patriotism had been taken from them, there was a monopoly on it. The language of patriotism on the right.
And instead of being able to fly an American flag at your house and saying, look, I am doing this on behalf of a centrist position or a center left
position, it had almost been sort of weaponized by the Trump MAGA Republican movement. That's how it was being described.
And so, there was this effort to reach out and say, we can turn how that feels. And, you know, you're hearing from Republicans, and you saw some of
them up on the stage during the Democratic Convention, these are Republicans like Adam Kinzinger who, after all, has spent, you know, 12
years in Congress as a Republican saying out -- reaching out explicitly to his fellow Republicans and saying to vote for a Democrat this year is not
to betray your values. It is, in fact, to cement your values and to do an act of patriotism. That's a theme that it turns out to have been available
but hasn't been taken up until just now and is proving powerful.
GOLODRYGA: And finally, Evan, a really touching display of gratitude and appreciation for Joe Biden Monday night. We heard from the president as
well, we saw the embrace and the chemistry between he and Kamala Harris, telling him how much she loves him and how much she appreciates everything
that he has done.
What are you hearing in terms of how he is doing right now and how he sees the next five months for him? I know he's on vacation in California with
his family now.
OSNOS: You know, that was an important moment, I think, both for him personally and then, also for the party in a way to make vivid this
transition from him now and to her. Look, privately, personally, this is a very difficult time for him. I mean, as one of his -- somebody who's very
close to him said to me, the truth is, he's still sort of flummoxed about how things turned out the way they did.
And that goes back to something we talked about at the very beginning, which is how fast this is all transpired. Remember two months ago, of
course, he was going to be the nominee and they were all planning for that. So, he is still at this moment trying to come to terms with it.
He is aware of the idea that perhaps people think that he's angry, they're pushing back a bit against that. Somebody described him to me as
disappointed, but not depressed. And I think that is, in some ways, the combination of experiences and it'll take time, as he knows from having
lost in his life, to be able to begin to see this with some perspective.
GOLODRYGA: Indeed. Evan Osnos, thank you so much for joining us once again. What a year this month has been. Thank you.
OSNOS: Thank you. Thanks, Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: Well, now, when the DNC kicked off on Monday, party chairman Jaime Harrison was first at the podium. The South Carolina native reflected
on the moment, writing on Twitter, only in America could a round headed boy raised by a single mother end up gaveling in a historic convention to
nominate our first black woman president.
Well, Harrison, you may recall, burst onto the national scene in 2020 when he launched a surprisingly competitive Senate campaign against Lindsey
Graham. Walter Isaacson spoke to Harrison about the week that was, and what challenges his party faces between now and November.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALTER ISAACSON, CO-HOST, AMANPOUR AND CO.: Thank you, Bianna. And Chairman Jaime Harrison, welcome to the show.
JAIME HARRISON, DNC CHAIR: Thank you so much for having me.
ISAACSON: Congratulations. It was a pretty crisp, clear convention with a whole lot of themes. And let me go through them. One of them was freedom.
He used the Beyonce song, the John Batiste song. Every speaker hit it. It was a shift from the theme of democracy that Joe Biden was using. Important
theme, but sort of a less personal one. Tell me about the shift to the theme of freedom.
[13:15:00]
HARRISON: Well, freedom, is just -- you know, that's what we're fighting for in this country. And we have seen a full fronted assault on the
freedoms of the American people. I mean, you take a look at women in this country. For the first time in 50 years, women don't have the freedom to
control their own bodies all across this country.
You know, I'm 48, and all of my life, up until just a few years ago, we've been gaining more freedoms in this country. You know, folks gaining the
right to vote, because all of us did not always have it. My grandparents did not always have it. Women gaining the right to control their own
bodies. And for the first time, because of Donald Trump and the people that he appointed to the Supreme Court, and because of the Roberts Supreme
Court, those freedoms have been ripped away. The Voting Rights Act gutted under Roberts. Roe versus Wade destroyed under Roberts.
And then, you hear in the dictum of some of these opinions from folks like Clarence Thomas that said, we're not done in terms of going after other
freedoms. And that's why we had to -- Democrats had to move forward in terms of marriage equality. Because Clarence Thomas and his yoke were
talking about going right at that particular freedom that has been gained over the course of the past few years.
So, freedom is a really, really, important component. And it doesn't matter if you're a Democrat, Republican or independent. America is built on
freedom. And we need -- and somebody has to protect it. We don't see that protection coming from the Republicans that we see an assault on and
Democrats are going to be those joyful warriors, those hopeful warriors that will do everything within our power to protect America's freedom.
ISAACSON: You know, one of the things I noticed last night as I'm sitting there in the hall seemed somewhat unusual for my days of covering
Democratic Conventions, everybody had an American flag, people chanting USA, the flag's marching down, the speakers are all talking about USA and
patriotism. Tell me about the decisions you all made to recapture the notion of the flag, the country, and patriotism.
HARRISON: Well, it's important to understand, you know, when you say that you support the United States of America, then that means supporting what
our constitution says, supporting what the Declaration says. We have had and heard from Donald Trump, his own words, not mine, that he wants to be a
dictator on day one. That he's OK with ignoring and sometimes pushing off the constitution of these United States.
Joe Biden said this also clearly, you can't just love this country only when you win. This is about loving America all the time. And the Democratic
Party looks like America. We represent the diversity and the strength and the values of this country. We believe that everybody, everybody,
regardless of your race, your religion, who you love, how you love, how you identify yourself, should live, be able to live their American dream. I
can't say that for the other side.
You look at Donald Trump, look at that convention where you saw -- our convention, where you saw such unity, some happiness, and joy. I mean, it
was like a big family reunion, right? People are dancing, they're crying, they're hugging. You look at the Republican Convention, these people had
signs chanting for mass deportation. This country built by immigrants, right? So, that's the stark contrast right now between the parties. They're
doom and gloom and fear. We're hope and joy. And I think hope and joy beats doom and fear every time.
ISAACSON: Another thing that struck me, which seemed different from some previous Democratic Conventions, was the emphasis last night in particular
on national security. Having veterans in the party up there. Having Leon Panetta as sort of an unexpected, in some ways, primetime speaker, with one
of the toughest speeches on the need for American defense, and the vice president said it herself in her acceptance speech.
Tell me how you were thinking through the need to project that a woman, like Kamala Harris, we've never elected a woman before, can be a commander-
in-chief strong on national defense and the military?
HARRISON: Well, you know, one of the things that we were thinking is, listen, we knew how strong the VP is, and I think a lot of world leaders
know how strong the VP is. And we wanted to make sure that we demonstrated that. This is someone who is respected on the world stage.
[13:20:00]
You remember early on in this administration when there was some friction because of, you know, contract -- submarine contract with Australia and
France. Well, you know, Kamala Harris early on in this administration was seen as an emissary to soothe over some of the frustrations over in France.
And she and the president of France have now become very close, and she actually helped to rebuild and strengthen that relationship with this ally
that has been an ally for such a long time.
And so, she's met with hundreds of world leaders. This president is extremely strong, but she's also very empathetic. She understands -- you
know, she comes -- she's a progeny of immigrants. And she understands the hardships and the struggles that some face in many countries.
Her visit to Africa didn't get a lot of coverage. But it was so amazing to see and to witness, particularly as a black man. And so, I can't wait to
see her on that stage as our commander-in-chief because she's going to be strong, but she's also going to have a heart and understand the trials and
tribulations that so many face.
ISAACSON: You know, as party chair you had to make a pretty strong pivot about four and a half weeks ago. Suddenly you're planning for this
convention of renominating Joe Biden and, boom, you got something totally different. Tell me about that pivot, what you all scrambled to do to change
the convention.
HARRISON: Well, you know, some of it wasn't really a big pivot, to be quite honest, because when you think about it, in 2020, Joe Biden and
Kamala Harris really did not get a traditional convention. You know, we were online via COVID. They didn't get the traditional inauguration. They
actually didn't have all the pomp and circumstance for an inauguration.
And so, we went into this convention, one looking for a host city that could help tell their story and the story of this administration and the
achievements, but most importantly, we went into this convention thinking about how do we tell the story of Joe Biden, of Kamala Harris.
And so, when the switch happened, we knew that we were already preparing to tell the story of Kamala Harris, but now, we also needed to be able to tell
the story of Governor Tim Walz, and then shift how we told Joe Biden's story, not as the nominee, but as the transformational president that he
has been.
I will go down saying that Joe Biden is the most transformational president of my lifetime. When you look at his legislative achievements, it is hard
to find any comparison outside of Lyndon Baines Johnson, in terms of the sheer number and volume and impact of those legislative achievements. And
what gives him even a little notch more is he did it with the 50/50 Senate on a good day and a less than five-seat majority, the same majority that
Republicans have.
And so, we wanted to make sure that then we could do that. We give the person thoseflowers, but tell the story of Kamala Harris.
ISAACSON: When I was walking to the hall, you know, we'd see the Palestinian protesters and that was one of the things that Vice President
Harris had to navigate. And I want to read you from her speech, because she did a very careful navigation of it.
She said, I will always stand up for Israel's right to defend itself. And then she said, but what has happened in Gaza is devastating, desperate,
hungry people fleeing for safety over and over again. The scale of suffering is heartbreaking.
To me, that was a shift of tone, a noticeable shift of tone from President Biden to just really empathize with the heartbreaking plight of many
Palestinian civilians, how is she going to try to keep the party together on those issue -- this issue, especially when so many Palestinians feel
disenfranchised now?
HARRISON: Yes. Well, you know, that's what I mentioned earlier about strength, but empathy. And those two things can coexist at the same time
and they can be in the same person. And I think that's what -- you know, I thought that section of the vice president's speech was just absolutely
spot on. It was beautiful in many ways because that's where we have to be. We can stand with our allies and at the same time, we can also see the hurt
and the pain and want to and to actively lean into doing things to address that as well.
[13:25:00]
Those, -- you know, it doesn't have to be black or white, right? There's that room in the middle in order to really pave that path. And I believe
that this is the -- this is a person who can do it in Kamala Harris. And I hope we get it done before she becomes president. You know, because the
need right now is tremendous and it's great. And so, I know that she's feverishly working with President Biden and the national security team day
in and day out to try to make progress here and to go and secure a ceasefire.
ISAACSON: One of the decisions that you all who were organizing this convention had to make was whether or not to have a speaker from the
uncommitted delegates who were representing the Palestinian cause. To what extent did you have discussions about having a Palestinian speaker? And
why, in the end, did you not have a pro-Palestinian speaker during the convention?
HARRISON: Well, that section of ours -- of our program, I wasn't actively involved in. But, you know, what we tried to do is to make sure we brought
folks on that stage that are respected and opinion points in all perspectives. And there were folks on that stage who had those reflections.
I mean, the requests from folks in the various groups and pockets, you know, we're a very diverse party. It is our strength, but also, it can
also, at times, create difficulties because there's the sheer volume of groups that make up almost -- you know, in some fashion, we're a little
coalition like, you know, and when you think about the Democratic Party. Similar to what you find in Europe and what have you, you have all of these
segments and these groups that --
ISAACSON: But let me get back to that issue of whether or not to have that speaker, because it was a two- or three-day discussion. Are you worried
about, especially Michigan, Minnesota and other places, by deciding not to have a pro-Palestinian speaker? What are you going to do to reach out to
that community?
HARRISON: Well, I think the vice president's speech laid the foundation for that. She spoke her truth. And I think her truth -- and when you talk
to folks in those communities, I think you see some semblance of all of that right in those communities. And so, she'll continue to go and reach
out to those communities. We will continue to go and get -- go to those areas. We'll go to where people are and have the discussions.
And not only will it just be about words, because, you know, I'm a firm believer that it is not about just telling people about where you are, it's
about showing them. And I think the most powerful thing that we can do over the course of the next few weeks as we get to November is not just tell
people about our position, but to actively show them with our actions. And that's what the vice president along with the president are working on day
in and day out, to show folks that we are committed to getting a ceasefire. We're committed to protecting, you know, the Israeli people as well as the
Palestinian people. And I think our actions are going to be a much more powerful than our words.
ISAACSON: A while back, you said his DNC chair, one of your big goals would be to reengaging and winning back Latino and black men who have
drifted away from the party. Trump just yesterday was bragging that he's getting black men Latinos for him. Tell me what you're doing and what
you're seeing in that regard.
HARRISON: Well, I think Donald Trump continues his delusion because he's not getting black men and Latino. We have been actively for -- the last
three and a half years, I've been going around into the communities, making sure that we have conversations with black men and Latino men so that they
understand that we don't take them for granted, that we see them, that we hear them, but most importantly, we value them, and we're going to fight
like hell for it.
And, you know, everybody wants to be seen and heard, everybody. And they want to know that you have an agenda for them. That you understand the
hardships that they're facing. And I think, you know, the vice president, well, is rolling out things because that economic anxiety is still a really
present thing.
You know, black men and Latino men want to take care of their families. They want to make sure that there's security, not only personal security,
but economic security as well. And so, it's the most dehumanizing thing for a man is to feel as though he cannot protect. He cannot defend. He cannot
take care and produce for his family. And so, we understand that, and we're making sure that our messages are rooted in that. And we're making sure
that the outreach that we do is also rooted in that.
ISAACSON: This was a historic nomination, first black woman, South-Asian woman. We're seeing history being made, but one of the things that struck
me is that Vice President Harris didn't dwell on that in her speech, the historic nature of it. Tell me about what you see as historic nature and
perhaps why she didn't talk about it more.
[13:30:00]
HARRISON: Well, you know, I think what's really important for folks is to understand that, you know, regardless of her background, this is a person
who is ready on day one to be the commander-in-chief. There's probably no one more equipped to be so.
She has been the Vice President of these United States for the last three and a half years. She's helped, showed -- stood shoulder to shoulder with
Joe Biden to pass some of the most transformational legislation that we have seen in the last few decades to bring America out of the darkness and
despair of COVID, to help rebuild our relationships overbroad so that people respected America again, to protect and defend the constitution of
the United States. And she happens to be a woman and she happens to be a black and Asian-American descent.
But it is groundbreaking, because like I said, people will get an opportunity to see who she is and many people will get an opportunity to
see themselves in her. And that's the most amazing thing. This is a historic moment. And you know, this picture that I've been painting for
folks all week at this Democratic Convention was this image -- because again, we're a future thinking party, this image of January 20, 2025 on the
steps of the United States Capitol, Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson standing there, holding the bible of Frederick Douglass, and Kamala Harris stepping
out, putting her hand on that bible and taking a pledge to protect and defend the constitution of the United States.
They're standing on the steps of a building built by the hands of slaves. That is what America can do. I mean, it just gives me chills just thinking
about it time and time again. That is what America can do in this election. It's all within our power, and we will do that. And we will rejoice in the
joy of our ancestors as we move forward with that.
ISAACSON: Jaime Harrison, thank you so much for joining us.
HARRISON: Thank you so much for having me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Well, now from deep fakes to misinformation, social media is already proving that it has the power to disrupt and destabilize the
upcoming election. Well, our next guests are using the Broadway stage to shine a spotlight on exactly that the dark side of the Internet.
In the new play, "Job," an employee at a tech company tasked with scrolling through unsavory content, is put on leave after a video of her having a
breakdown goes viral. Now, it's up to her new crisis therapist to give her the all clear to return to work. I sat down with the two stars, Peter
Friedman and Sydney Lemmon, alongside the playwright, Max Wolf Friedlich.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: OK. Well, thank you all for joining us. Really blown away by the show. So, I'm excited to be having this conversation with you.
Max, we'll get to where this concept came from, but let's jump into the plot and Sydney's character, Jane, her life is really shattered as a
content moderator at a Facebook like social media company. I'm wondering if you personally had any type of life altering or experiences with content
that stood out to you as disturbing online.
MAX WOLF FRIEDLICH, WRITER, "JOB": Nothing directly. I'm a chronically online person and someone raised on the internet. So, I think a lot of
horrible things normalized to me very quickly from a very young age. And it wasn't until years later that I sort of was able to realize that those were
strange things to have seen.
And I'm not an outlier. I think a lot of people grow up that way in the modern world. But I had a very strange tech job when I first graduated from
college where I worked for this company that built fictional influencers. So, that was my most direct related experience to what Jane goes through,
where I wasn't looking at awful content on the internet, but I was living life as this like fake famous person called Lil Miquela.
And so, I was getting sent, you know, messages about how much people loved me and how much they hated me. And that was more disturbing than anything I
had ever seen. And that was the most direct sort of inspiration for the play.
GOLODRYGA: So, Peter, without it being shoved down a viewer's throat, this is based a lot on generational divide.
PETER FRIEDMAN, ACTOR, "JOB": It really is, yes.
[13:35:00]
GOLODRYGA: So, as the older, wiser of the people here I'm interviewing in the panel, I'm just curious when you hear, even what Max just said, the
idea --
FRIEDMAN: It's insane. I don't know what you people are doing.
GOLODRYGA: I could just watch you guys talk about the show because I do want to get a sense of how you first felt when you read the script, when
you were first approached with it. And I know for you, Sydney, it frightened you.
SYDNEY LEMMON, ACTRESS, "JOB": Oh, yes, it terrified me. It contains things that reflect our world in a real way, and then they're dark. And I
think that's kind of what connects with people. It really speaks to the present moment, and it leaves people grappling with a lot of things that
are maybe the underbelly of tech or the internet, but that are true. And, yes, it frightened me for sure.
GOLODRYGA: And we should note that the show is based on your character being a content moderator at a Facebook like technology company, going in
for a therapy session. You are the therapist, Peter, and you had a nervous breakdown in the office and that went viral. It was caught on tape and
video, as so many of these moments are in present day and thus, to keep your job, HR sends you first to be analyzed by a professional. And again,
trying to grasp this new concept of social media in a world where no one can live without it. What is your relationship with social media?
FRIEDMAN: As the representative of the older generation in this I just don't see the purpose of going that deep into all these other worlds, the
Instagram and the sharing, and it doesn't make sense to me personally. My wife has dabbled a little bit, but I don't get it. And I -- and every day
you read about somebody who's been online and something terrible happens, you go, I don't need a presence there. What's the deal? But this gang does.
GOLODRYGA: And so, how much of your own research did you have to do in preparing for a role as a therapist, for this specific topic?
FRIEDMAN: Nothing. We've all, we've all been to therapy a zillion times. So, you know, I know what the deal is, how they behave and, you know, been
through a lot myself. But it's what the character is dealing with that we don't hear about, until later, that sparks how I do what I do. And the idea
is to talk this person down, talk this person down from the ledge.
GOLODRYGA: Max, do you view the role of social media specifically as it's portrayed in this play as a useful tool or as something that ultimately is
more harmful to society?
FRIEDLICH: I think we are still grappling with the fact that it's just a ubiquitous part of society. And there's this sort of now false dichotomy, I
think between online and offline that doesn't really exist anymore. We're always online. We're all, you know, these -- what happens on the internet
has profound resonance with our lived reality. I think most directly and saliently with like the 2016 election, right, where like anyone, I think on
Twitter or 4chan or Reddit could have told you that those polls are wrong.
So, I think that whether it's good or bad isn't really for me to say, but we need to start understanding it on a deeper level, and we need to start
modeling what a healthy relationship with it looks like. And you can see it repeating itself with A.I. now, where people are still having this
conversation of whether we should use it or not, it's too good a technology for people not to use it, and that's not an opinion. We're going to use it.
So, we need to, you know, put blocks in place and try to, again, model what a healthy relationship with this technology can look like, because I don't
think we have that for contemporary social media. It's either good or bad, and I don't think that's the question anymore.
GOLODRYGA: And, Sydney, I think it's safe to say that your relationship with social media, your character's relationship with social media is not a
healthy one. You though are insistent on going back to your job. I'm wondering how much in your life and how much in studying for this role,
have you ever been in a situation where you're so committed to a job or a part of your life that you just can't quit even though perhaps it's not the
best for you?
[13:40:00]
LEMMON: Well, I think that a life in the arts is not always the easiest one, and it's a certain calling. I think to when you're feel calling in you
to be an actor, maybe echoes the calling that Jane, my character, feels to what she does. And so, it's something that, yes, it's not always easy, but
you feel a drive that you must continue on that path. So, I guess I do feel those things have similarity.
GOLODRYGA: I mean, you really get a sense from your performance and your character that your job is urgent and much needed.
LEMMON: Yes. Yes, I think that she can -- she does content moderation. She sifts through the filth of the internet. It's not an easy job, but in the
play, she says somebody has to do it. And that's really the truth. People - - you know, A.I. can help with this job. This job can be pushed off into different countries, but ultimately, someone has to sift.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And it's funny, because watching the play, I didn't even - - I've never thought of the job of a content moderator. Obviously, somebody has to do it, and it's an important job. But you actually spent some time,
I've read, with a content moderator at a real company, right, at a party and got a sense of what that entails.
FRIEDLICH: Very briefly, yes. I also had no idea about what it was, but, you know, the internet is so fascinating because it's, again, all around
us, it affects so much of our lived reality, but we sort of engage with it like it's magic. We don't understand -- we sort of conceptualize it as like
floating in the air. We don't think of it as being as, you know, cloud storage, as being like real servers that actually exist and need cooling
and have an energy expenditure.
And I think off of that, like content moderation, there's a human labor cost to us mindlessly scrolling on TikTok, and that's so fascinating to me
that we do this thing that gets sort of portrayed as being without thought. And really, there's someone sitting behind the screen having to do this
terrible labor so that we can do this.
And I think if there's one social message of the play, which I don't really love when there isn't in -- at least my work, so much, I think it's just
trying to get people to think a little deeper about what makes it possible for them to be on their phones.
GOLODRYGA: Here's a constant question that you get for anybody on a Broadway show or show that you're repeating nightly to a different
audience, is it harder or easier for you to repeat such a dynamic and, you know --
FRIEDMAN: That's the question.
GOLODRYGA: It's a hard role to play. And to do it every night. How do you do that?
LEMMON: There's freedom in the structure that we've built. We've built something and when people like how -- when people ask, how do you do it?
How do you keep it fresh? A lot of it is that we're still figuring it out, even though we've performed this off Broadway, twice now on Broadway, we're
still working to uncover the truth of what these characters are living through. And a lot of it doesn't come from effort, but from release sort
of, just releasing into the story.
GOLODRYGA: Do you notice a difference in their performance each night?
FRIEDLICH: I do, but also, I -- and there's such a solid core and such a solid foundation. I think the beauty with live theater -- the process, I
think of producing a play is all about, similarly, like a releasing and like a giving it away. So, I think the thing that changes every night is
the audience. And sometimes it's a very laughy vocal audience and that changes the texture of the play in really interesting ways.
I mean, no one gets to watch it the way that I do, which is like with a -- you know, a fine, fine, fine tooth comb. And I think that makes me enjoy it
more when I do get to see it, because I'm like, oh, they found this, like, minute moment that no one else is going to notice, but, like, that's never
been there before. Like, this one gesture, this one, you know, pushing the hair behind the ear, that changes the dynamic of the scene for me. So, it's
very exciting.
GOLODRYGA: And I love how you've woven comedy throughout as well. I mean, I just wonder when you're sitting there --
FRIEDMAN: That's this guy.
GOLODRYGA: -- on stage and hearing the audience laugh at times. You know, I wouldn't necessarily describe this as a comedy, but the writing itself. I
mean, how hard, how long did it take you to get it to this point?
FRIEDLICH: I started writing the play -- I started outlining it in 2018. So, it's been a minute. The comedy, I just like -- I can't really engage
with anything that takes itself holistically seriously. It was a little -- I think a lot of the comedy is accidental. I would put it right back on
these guys. I think they've found a lot of comedic moments.
And I think there's this interesting psychological thing that happens, is like, once people start laughing, they kind of don't stop. And then, in our
play, there comes a moment where like they really have to stop and that's a very satisfying thing as a writer to be like, oh, we've kind of tricked you
and lulled you into thinking it's this thing and it's actually this other thing.
[13:45:00]
GOLODRYGA: I was there for opening night and it was quite an emotional speech you gave that night at the end of the show. I mean, you're a first-
time playwright, you're not even 30. Your director is his first time directing as well.
FRIEDLICH: Crazy.
GOLODRYGA: You were introduced to this by your daughter, Sadie. I mean, what does it say for the future of theater, especially Broadway theater to
have such a young ensemble? And it's not just the writing, the directing, the producers too, I mean, it has this very fresh, young next generation
vibe to it.
FRIEDLICH: Yes. Yes, it's really exciting. It's it feels like we're representing a community that's rapidly ascending from downtown. And it's a
real honor to be in this position, sort of, in some respect, representing them and representing the people that we came up around.
And I think the most exciting newness has to do with the audience. I mean, we've been sort of a disproportionate hit amongst younger people, and we've
talked to a lot of people for whom this is like the first play that they've ever seen in New York, and that's the most exciting and gratifying thing to
me as a writer to get new young people in to see theater.
GOLODRYGA: And it's obvious that it resonates with so many people of all ages.
FRIEDMAN: Differently, between the ages, but it resonates, yes.
GOLODRYGA: And, Peter, your last appeared on Broadway in "12 Angry Men" 20 years ago.
FRIEDMAN: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: And there's a connection here, because in the film version, "12 Angry Men," Jack Lemmon, your grandfather starred. Just wondering what this
--
LEMMON: You never talked about that.
FRIEDMAN: Well, I never did.
GOLODRYGA: What this experience has been like for the two of you and the relationship that's come out of it?
LEMMON: We're besties.
FRIEDMAN: Go ahead.
GOLODRYGA: That's awesome.
LEMMON: It's just been a privilege, first and foremost, but really a joy to get to work with somebody as skilled and good and kind as Peter. And
it's just been fun. We really like each other.
FRIEDMAN: Yes. And it's been easy. And I -- you know, there's -- Syd says quite a lot in the show. And I've seen this thing a million times, and it's
always different, it's always a different thrust from the very beginning. And I love seeing how it takes her through the entire 80 minutes. It's just
what you want.
GOLODRYGA: It's fantastic, the chemistry between the two of you, the dialogue, hang on every single word sitting in the audience.
LEMMON: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: And I just -- I know we'll see a lot more of you in the future. I imagine an award or two, perhaps specifically for this role. I know the
play has been extended through the end of October. So, congratulations.
FRIEDLICH: Thank you.
FRIEDMAN: Thanks. Thanks very much.
LEMMON: Thank you for having us.
GOLODRYGA: It's a wonderful show. Thank you so much for joining us.
FRIEDLICH: Thank you.
LEMMON: Thank you so much.
FRIEDLICH: I really appreciate it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: I loved that show and I loved that conversation.
Well, this week, Taylor Swift wrapped up a record-breaking run of shows in London. And amongst her surprise guests was singer-songwriter, and producer
extraordinaire Jack Antonoff. He's famous for producing many of her biggest hits, along with many other artists, and is a major musician in his own
right with his band Bleachers.
They are touring with their new self-titled album and Christiane caught up with Antonoff in London ahead of their appearance at Reading Festival.
Here's a sneak peek of that conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Jack Antonoff, welcome to the program.
JACK ANTONOFF, MUSICIAN, SONGWRITER AND PRODUCER: Thank you for having me.
AMANPOUR: I have a lot to ask you, but I do actually want to start by your appearance on the stage with Taylor Swift, which was pretty amazing. Did
you expect it? What was it like?
ANTONOFF: I mean, it's the -- I'm the least nervous the more surreal it gets. I'd be more nervous talking to you than being in front of that many
people.
AMANPOUR: You seem to be a seriously cool guy when it comes not just to music, but who you produce. And especially you produce a lot of very
powerful women. And I don't know whether you started by identifying women or whether it was just something that came to you. How did it start with
Taylor Swift, for instance?
ANTONOFF: That started as organic as possible. It literally met completely outside of even anything really industry like kind of through friends, I'm
just playing music that we liked. One thing leads to another.
AMANPOUR: Look, you've worked on 11 of her albums, but beyond that, you've won a lot of Grammys. And particularly, you've won producer of the year for
the last three years.
ANTONOFF: Yes, it's bananas.
AMANPOUR: What is -- I don't even know whether you can, but can you say what is more satisfying, what you like better? Is it producing? Is it being
a musician? Is it being a performer? Is it doing your own stuff?
ANTONOFF: I've never experienced any of them without each other. So, I don't know. I know for other people, they're very different. You know, I
have a lot of friends who love being in the studio and despise being on the road, or some people get exhausted by the studio and need to perform.
[13:50:00]
I -- they're very much one thing to me. I've never been in the studio and not thought about live. I've never been on stage and not imagined what I
was going to do next in the studio.
AMANPOUR: You seem quite shy in your interaction. And you are -- I mean, maybe you're not. But you have associated yourself, both in your
professional life and in your personal life, with what I said earlier, with some very strong, prominent women, and not just famous women who are
incredibly -- women of substance, whether it's the musicians we've talked about, whether you've dated people like Scarlett Johansson, Lena Dunham,
you're married now to Margaret Qualley, who's in an amazing new film called "The Substance," which is not yet out.
ANTONOFF: Yes, "The Substance" is outstanding.
AMANPOUR: Yes, I'm waiting to see it. It's really, really edgy. You feel totally secure with very strong women and successful women?
ANTONOFF: I think so. I don't know. I mean, I'm not -- I don't feel --
AMANPOUR: What attracts you to that lot?
ANTONOFF: I've always felt very comfortable around people who are comfortable with themselves and that's usually people who end up having
some power because that's a nice trait. But yes, I just like -- I like people who know what they want to do and hear what they hear and just want
to go find it and then we can have our big crisis of the day over what we should have for lunch, not about what we want to say to the world.
AMANPOUR: One of the things you did say to the world through your profession was the "Getaway Car." You have that song, it went viral, and it
was part of the joint appearance the other night. And I'm just going to play a little bit of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTONOFF: I'm in a getaway car, and losing my -- something.
TAYLOR SWIFT, SINGER: I'm in a getaway car, and you're in the motel bar, or like --
ANTONOFF: Yes, I'm in the getaway car. Left you in the motel bar. Took the money --
SWIFT: Took the money in the bag and I stole it --
ANTONOFF: Took the money --
SWIFT: Took the money in the bag and I stole the keys. That was the last time you ever saw me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: You were super energetic in that clip that we just showed.
ANTONOFF: Yes.
AMANPOUR: You -- it's the story behind the story, right?
ANTONOFF: Well, I think the reason why that clip has had such a big life is because, you know, there's a everyone wants to tell the story of the
studio. You know, we see it in film and TV all the time and often the story is sensationalized and there's, you know, candles and heroin and the --
that version. It's not really true that, you know, the studio is an interesting place, but it's a place that you plant yourself in and you --
almost like fishing or something, you're like waiting to catch something and you're trying all these different things.
I think the reason why that video has such a big life is because it's one of the few videos I've ever seen and I happen to be in it, but that really
captured the moment when two people get the idea for a thing. And I don't know why she was recording that, but she was. And it's the only video I've
ever been a part of where I'm like, yes, that was really the moment. That was it. When we put this together and this, and it speaks to that one plus
one equaling a billion. You see two people kind of one upping each other. And those are those moments when you really get the song.
AMANPOUR: I'm going to play another one, your song "Modern Girl," which is on your new album. You kind of joke, I think you're joking, there's
certainly New Jersey lyrics. We're going to play that.
ANTONOFF: I think you're joking.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: It's really danceable. What's pop music hoarder?
ANTONOFF: Oh, well, that whole -- you know, I was sort of -- so that song started as me trying to take the piss out of the world. And then, whenever
I'm going like that, I always think I should go like that. So, I started writing it --
AMANPOUR: Do you get that criticism?
ANTONOFF: Pop music hoarder?
AMANPOUR: Yes.
ANTONOFF: Oh, not in that way. But I wanted to create a just a half a verse that was sort of like, all, like, the ways you could take the piss
out of me. So, like, New Jersey's finest New Yorker seemed funny to me.
AMANPOUR: Yes. We --
ANTONOFF: It just seems like an absurd statement. Unreliable reporter that speaks to, like, all the hypocrisy of being a writer. You know, in my
version of writing, there's no fact checking. And there shouldn't be. It's whatever I feel, whenever I feel it. And some of the stories are brutally
honest and some of them are utter distortions.
Pop music hoarder, I think that -- I was, you know, taking the piss out of the idea that as like people who, you know, feel like I keep popping up in
all these places. And then, some guy playing quarters just speaks to like, hey, I'm just some person also.
AMANPOUR: Jack Antonoff, thank you very much.
ANTONOFF: Thanks for having me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[13:55:00]
GOLODRYGA: And finally, love and loss know no bounds. Sphen, one half of the beloved gen two penguin power couple has sadly passed away. He and his
partner, Magic, shot to fame for their same sex love story and 2018. Now, from the moment they met at Sydney's Sea Life Aquarium, the pair seemingly
had eyes only for each other, nurturing two young chicks and recently celebrating their six-year anniversary.
Well, upon seeing his soulmate's lifeless body, Magic broke into song in apparent mourning, and the rest of the colony then joined him. While a
Sphen-shaped hole has been left in the hearts of many, the legacy of their iconic relationship lives on. It's just beautiful.
Well, that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can
always catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media.
Thanks so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
