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Amanpour
Interview with Israeli Democrats Party Leader Yair Golan; Interview with "The Perfect Couple" Director Susanne Bier; Interview with ProPublica Reporter Alec MacGillis. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired September 10, 2024 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
Israel strikes a safe zone in Gaza, killing dozens. The IDF says they were targeting Hamas. We bring you the latest from the region. And with no end
in sight to this war and hostages still in Gaza, I'm joined by Israeli opposition leader, Yair Golan.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Their deal is simple, fight, survive, and become free men.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- convicts fighting for their country. A frontline report on the Ukrainian prisoner battalion in Pokrovsk.
Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This all feels a little traumatic for an accidental drowning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- a murder mystery in high society America. Christiane's conversation with Oscar winning filmmaker Susanne Bier on her new show,
"The Perfect Couple," starring Nicole Kidman.
Also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEC MACGILLIS, REPORTER, PROPUBLICA: We've had this really unprecedented drop nationwide, about 1 million kids off of the public-school rolls.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- The Death of School 10. Reporter Alec MacGillis tells Hari Sreenivasan about how declining enrollment is threatening American public
education.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
Well, it's been more than 11 months since the brutal attack on Israel by Hamas on October 7th, and still the war grinds on. Health officials are
counting the many dead after an Israeli strike on a designated humanitarian zone in Southern Gaza. The Israeli military claims that it struck
significant Hamas terrorists in a command and control center. Hamas denies placing fighters in the area.
Meantime, living conditions within the enclave are intolerable. Communications diseases -- communicable diseases spreading, including
polio, as sanitary conditions collapse. Reports of wounds infested by maggots in Gaza hospitals are becoming almost routine.
And still, more than 100 hostages remain in captivity. We begin our coverage of all of this with correspondent Matthew Chance for more on the
Israeli strike on Gaza.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As rescue workers scramble for survivors, eyewitnesses say the Israeli strikes
targeted what was meant to be a safe zone in the Southern Gaza Strip, ripping through tents and makeshift shelters, leaving deep craters and
dozens of killed and injured.
They told us this area was safe, says this man. I swear the people here were just normal, he says, not fighters.
By daylight, you can see the extent of the destruction. Israel's military says it conducted a precise strike on Hamas terrorists, operating a command
and control center inside this humanitarian zone. An IDF statement says prior to the strike, numerous steps were taken to mitigate the risk of
harming civilians. But this was a heavily populated area and civilians were caught up in the powerful blasts.
This man says he's two daughters were completely buried under the sand. Only one survived, he says. And he says he found the body parts of his
neighbors strewn around.
This 12-year-old girl is nursing a broken shoulder, suffered when her tent collapsed, she says, trapping her and her mother inside.
I was scared because the strikes were so close, she says.
Israel accuses Hamas of using civilians as human shields and insists the Israeli military takes extensive measures to enable civilians in Gaza to
avoid combat zones. But there's little real security in this brutal war.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Our thanks to Matthew Chance reporting there from Tel Aviv.
Also, today, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken called on Israeli security forces to make fundamental changes. His strongest statement yet in
response to the killing of an American-Turkish citizen on the West Bank.
[13:05:00]
On October 7th, Yair Golan, a former major general in the IDF, saw a vacuum in leadership and took action immediately. He put on his old army uniform
and drove south to defend people there. Well now, as a political leader of the new center left coalition party called the Democrats, he's trying to
fill another vacuum. As war continues in Gaza and as tension ratchets it up on the northern border and on the West Bank, he's working to unite the
opposition to present a viable alternative to Netanyahu's government.
Yair Golan, welcome to the program. Thank you so much for joining us. As we've noted that you are the chairman of the Democrats, that is a merger
between Labor and Meretz. And this week, you called on leaders of the opposition to come together for, quote, "immediate coordination" on what
you've called five burning issues.
They include a hostage and ceasefire deal, an updated report on the IDF's ability to face an all-encompassing regional conflict, into which Netanyahu
is leading the country, and pushing for an inquiry into the October 7th attacks. How is that coming along?
YAIR GOLAN, LEADER, ISRAELI DEMOCRATS PARTY: Well, unfortunately, up to now, we didn't manage to unify all our efforts in order to convince the
public and convince the government and the coalition at the same time that this is the right time for new elections.
I truly believe that in order to move in any positive direction concerning the future and the destiny of Israel, we need new elections as soon as
possible.
GOLODRYGA: But new elections aren't set, as you know, for -- until October 2026. You said in June on this very program that what would trigger new
elections, what is required, is mass protests on the scale of 1 million people every single day. Since then, tragically, we have seen the brutal
murder of six Israeli hostages really cripple the nation there and a lot of more outrage, specifically against this government against Prime Minister
Netanyahu, who many, including those in his defense establishment, have accused of trying to sabotage a hostage deal.
We've seen a turnout of a few hundred thousand protesters, the largest we've seen since October 7th, but nowhere near the 1 million you say is
required on a daily basis. So, what is it that will get Israelis to that point in your view?
GOLAN: Well, we need to protest every day, all day. It's not enough to protest during weekends. It's not enough, you know, to do it here and
there. It should be a constant pressure on the government. The government should be convinced that the best solution for them -- the best political
solution for them, is to conduct new elections as soon as possible.
GOLODRYGA: And yet, they're not moving in that direction. In fact, it appears the prime minister has really --
GOLAN: Well, it's a struggle.
GOLODRYGA: It is a struggle. And I know it's one that you disagree on other opposition leaders with in terms of how to address. For example, Yair
Lapid has even offered to give Prime Minister Netanyahu a lifeline in order to seal a hostage deal, if in case you do have far-right coalition members
like Ben-Gvir and Smotrich leave, as they're threatening to do.
You say that is counterproductive for Lapid to be offering a lifeline. What do you say to, to those who think that approach suggests you care more
about getting Prime Minister Netanyahu out of office than by solidifying or coming much closer to a ceasefire deal?
GOLAN: Well, I would say the following, we should not take any political consideration right now. It's much more about national considerations and
moral considerations. We need to free all the hostages as soon as possible. Because freeing the hostages, this is the target -- I would say the
beginning of a process of reaching a ceasefire in the south. By reaching a ceasefire in the south, we will be able to reach a ceasefire in the north.
And by ending the war, we could start the most desirable process, the recovery of Israel.
And therefore, I think that all opposition leaders need to understand that we need to unify all our efforts together and we need to work together and
we need to coordinate all our measures in order to convince the public and convince the government that without new elections, we cannot save Israel
out of this miserable situation we experience right now.
[13:10:00]
GOLODRYGA: As you know, early polling suggesting -- suggests that your party could win approximately 10 or 11 of the 120 Knesset seats. How do you
explain that per this polling, Netanyahu would still be able to bring in about 22 seats, granted that's less than the 32 they have, but that's much
more than you're expected or projected to bring in? After everything that the country has gone through this year, after the mass protests that we've
seen, after the fact that 100 Israelis still remain held hostage in Gaza, why is he able to hold such a high number of seats?
GOLAN: Well, I would say the following. First, the most important issue are the clusters, the clusters of parties, the one of the opposition and
the one of the coalition. And no doubt, according to all polls for the last -- since the war erupted, that the coalition has a very low number of seats
in the next Knesset, according to the polls. So, we need to change this government because this government has no legitimacy to keep its rule over
Israel.
The other side -- the other part is the trauma. The Israeli public is under terrible trauma. Think about it. The scale of the Hamas attack on October
7th comparing to the Israeli people, you know, comparing to the event of the September 11th is much, much bigger. So, it's a different scale.
So, Israel is under terrible trauma. And people in time of trauma tend to adopt a more, I would say, a vigorous stance. And this is not exactly what
we need right now. Right now, we need to keep thinking from our minds and our brains, rather than from our stomach.
And no doubt that the most desirable situation for Israel is to free all the hostages, because freeing all the hostages that symbolizes the ability
of the Israeli people to keep a sense of solidarity. And I -- you know, I think about the days after the war, and in order to recover, we need
solidarity, a strong sense of solidarity. And there is no other thing, no other issue like the hostages' question, which symbolizes the importance of
solidarity.
GOLODRYGA: That, I have to tell you, I've been to Israel a number of times now since October 7th. I've interviewed and gotten to know many of these
families quite well, and that is the one constant I hear, that the country cannot properly heal until these hostages are all brought home. That is
something that the majority of Israelis appear to be in alliance on.
On the issue, though --
GOLAN: Exactly.
GOLODRYGA: On the issue though of change, where you seem to differ from at least the majority of Israelis is while they are open and perhaps most now
would like to see a change at the top in leadership, the country, you know more than anyone, has shifted further to the right.
You continue to remain steadfast in your view that the best way to Israel's security and the Palestinians is a separation, a divorce between the two,
as many describe it, and a two-state solution. What do you say to Israelis who argue that leaving Gaza is what got Israel in this place to begin with
on October 7th?
And when you look at anybody that is likely seen as a replacement for Benjamin Netanyahu, it's not anyone on the center left, it's those who
perhaps could be even further to the right than he is politically, namely Naftali Bennett.
GOLAN: Well, I have to admit that I'm here and I'm ready to lead Israel if it's needed. And hopefully, it will be needed. So, there is an alternative.
There is always an alternative. And I think what we need right now Is to combine together, on the one hand, a strong sense of security and the
willingness to implement all the military measures in order to keep the security of Israel. This is something we don't do right now in the north,
for example. So, concerning that, I'm much more aggressive comparing to the policy of this government.
But on the other hand, we need to understand that without having some sort of international and regional measures in order to secure Israel, and
especially concerning the rising threat from Iran, well, we cannot do it, you know, alone. So, Israel need to work with other forces in the region.
Israel truly need the backing of the west and especially the backing of the United States of America.
[13:15:00]
And we cannot move forward in order to have these alliances without ending the war, without promising some sort of a positive future to our troubled
region. And therefore, we need to work hand in hand with the Americans, at least.
GOLODRYGA: You mentioned needing that alliance with the United States, and it is notable that you said you've had a much more hawkish view on the
situation in the north. You served as commander of Israel's northern command, and you said this in an interview, quote, "When it comes to the
north, Israel should take a risk of having a much wider confrontation with Hezbollah. We have tens of thousands of Israelis living like refugees in
their own country. This is the most devastating blow the Zionist project ever got."
You know that is not the position, at least not right now, of the U.S. government. I do want to ask you, though, where you are in agreement with
the U.S. government and more so than the current administration under Prime Minister Netanyahu, and that is what the day after in Gaza will look like.
Because you said, yes, that you do need to fight all militants there and build an alternative that includes working with the Palestinian Authority.
That is something that Prime Minister Netanyahu has not signed off on. Why do you think that is vital?
GOLAN: Because look at the Palestinian society, there are two basic elements, Hamas and the other organizations that are not willing to have
any concession with Israel and want to destroy Israel and the Palestinian Authority that in -- well, at least formally support this two-state
solution and practically work with Israel hand in hand for many, many years.
So, what is better for Israel, working with the one who want to kill us or working with some sort of a moderate element, although not Zionist in the
Palestinian society? So, I think the answer is quite clear.
So, therefore, in our region, you need to work with the people who are willing to work with you. And no doubt from, you know, any perspective,
national perspective, regional perspective, and international perspective, we need to work hand in hand with the Palestinian Authority in order to
stabilizing the situation and in order to secure the lives of Israeli citizens.
GOLODRYGA: We have about 30 seconds left. I do want to ask you whether or not you think the secretary of state, Blinken's, criticism of how the IDF
acted in shooting and killing a Turkish-American citizen in the West Bank last week. He called it unacceptable. The IDF said that it's highly likely
that this hit was indirect and unintentional. Your response?
GOLAN: Well, I take the stand of the IDF. And it's a very unfortunate event. And I feel, you know, much sorrow about events like that. But, you
know, we are in a very complicated situation. And therefore, there is no other way but to fight terrorism inside the Gaza Strip and inside Judea and
Samaria no other way.
GOLODRYGA: No doubt in a very complicated situation, I would bet that you would agree that 11 months ago when you bravely went to go rescue your
fellow Israelis citizens there after the worst attack on the country and its history, you didn't imagine that 11 months later we'd still be in this
place. Yair Golan, thank you so much for your time and for joining the program.
GOLAN: Thank you. Thank you so much.
GOLODRYGA: Well, we turn now to another conflict that feels never ending, and that is Russia's war on Ukraine. Overnight, Kyiv carried out its
biggest drone attack on Russia's capital to date, killing at least one woman, wrecking dozens of homes and forcing about 50 flights to be diverted
from airports around Moscow. Russia says that its air defenses thwarted the attack, shooting down scores of drones.
Meantime, Zelenskyy's troops remain under immense pressure around the eastern city of Pokrovsk. Correspondent Fred Pleitgen has a report from the
front line, where former prisoners are seizing their chance to become Ukrainian heroes.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Ukrainian troops sweeping into a village on the eastern front, but these
aren't career soldiers, they're ex-convicts who volunteered from prison, got some basic training, and were thrust into battle. Vitaly, 41 years old,
10 years in jail for theft and violent assault now assaulting Vladimir Putin's army.
VITALY, EX-CONVICT, SHKVAL COMPANY, 59TH BRIGADE (through translator): We have a goal. We have a task and we must do it. We're never confused, always
focused. You need to be very quick there.
[13:20:00]
PLEITGEN (voice-over): The ex-convicts are part of Ukraine's 59th Brigade. They're camped near the frontline rudimentary, but a lot better than jail.
Our conversations remain basic about survival or death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): He who has a strong spirit wins. He how has a weak spirit dies.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): Many are dying here on both sides. The 59th Brigade gave us this video showing Russians fleeing a burning house as the ex-
convicts attack. But Vitaly admits they are suffering casualties as well.
VITALY (through translator): We were moving into a position and my buddy was blown apart as soon as we went to the field. He was dismantled. It's
hard to watch, but what can you do? You can't help.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): Their deal is simple, fight, survive, and become free men.
VITALY (through translator): I need to turn the page of my life. I have five children after all. I need to think about my kid a little bit and
about myself. My life was a mess.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): Company Commander Oleksandr says his men performed some of the most dangerous assaults around here. Oleksandr was a jail
warden and many of those here, his inmates. He recruited them and says the traits that put them in jail now keep them alive.
OLEKSANDR (through translator): The convict subculture is used to surviving. They survive in very harsh conditions. And they will make every
effort to survive.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): This unit is part of Ukraine's force defending the key logistic hub, Pokrovsk.
PLEITGEN: Pokrovsk is now one of the main front line towns in the war in Ukraine. As you can see, the streets here are virtually deserted. At the
same time, the Russians are hitting this place with really heavy munitions, everything from artillery shells to large rockets.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): After major advances, the Russians are knocking on the door here. Shells and rockets constantly impacting, especially in the
evenings. And that's when the medics from the 68th Mountaineer Brigade start receiving most of the heavy casualties.
They show us this video of a U.S. supplied MaxxPro armored vehicle hit by a Russian drone. Two killed, four severely injured. Casualties Ukraine's
military, already badly outmanned, cannot afford, the medic who goes by the callsign Barbarian tells me.
BARBARIAN, MEDIC, 68TH BRIGADE (through translator): There are fewer of us. One of us matches 20 Russians. But we lack training. The training
period is very short. We lack equipment. They took the initiative in the sky. I mean drone.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): And Russian drones are also lethal at night. So, we leave Pokrovsk as darkness falls, Ukrainian troops heading towards the
front, hoping to keep Putin's army away from this key city.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Our thanks to Fred for that report. Well, we turn now to the not so perfect couple. Oscar winning filmmaker Susanne Bier is already
known for directing hits like "The Undoing," "The Night Manager," and "Bird Box."
And now, she's teamed up again with Nicole Kidman for a new Netflix series, "The Perfect Couple."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there something that you want to tell me?
LIEV SHREIBER, ACTOR, "THE PERFECT COUPLE": : This all feels a little dramatic for an accidental drowning.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why do you ask people to sign NDAs? Pardon?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're rich. Kill someone and get away with it, rich.
SHREIBER: Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I see you, bitch.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stop. Enough. Tom. This is vintage.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: And Susanne Bier joined Christiane on set in London just before the series dropped.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Susanne Bier, welcome to the program.
SUSANNE BIER, DIRECTOR, "THE PERFECT COUPLE": Thank you.
AMANPOUR: So, here is a really gripping murder mystery set in a high society, high class beach house, Nantucket. You know, the epitome of
American upper-class vacation. First of all, it's called a "Perfect Couple." Why did you call it "Perfect Couple"? What makes a perfect couple?
BIER: Well, I think it's -- this is kind of obviously not a perfect couple. It's very ironic and it's a kind of -- it is a murder mystery and
it is who did it, but it's also -- it's got clear comedic aspects, which is also a little bit what drew me to it. Because all the characters, every
single one of them is sort of a little bit off. Wonderful, but a little bit nothing isn't quite what it seems.
[13:25:00]
AMANPOUR: Exactly. And honestly, I have, like many of the reviewers, seen a certain number -- most of them, but you haven't dropped the last one to
us. And it's actually edge of your seat stuff and I'm probably stupid, but I can't figure it out, or maybe it's a willing suspension of disbelief. I
don't know, but it's fun as well, right?
BIER: Yes.
AMANPOUR: It's dark, but it's light and fun.
BIER: It's sort of dark and it's undercurrent because it does have a -- it does sort of suggest that maybe the upper class are not -- the sort of
entitlement is not all sympathetic and it's not all likable and is at times incredibly disrespectful to other people.
AMANPOUR: Also, not so good for them. You see some of the characters kind of dissatisfied, unmoored, unmotivated because of their lack of their
privilege.
BIER: Oh, because of the expectations they have because of their privilege. But essentially, it is fun. I mean, essentially, you are kind of
-- you're kind of enjoying that they are all at various times are frying a little bit. And I think at various times you do think, maybe he or she did
it, maybe.
AMANPOUR: Yes, yes, yes. I'm constantly thinking, I know. But let's go to almost one of the first scenes, if not the first scene in the first
episode, and that is the wedding photo. It's the pre-wedding, you know, dinner, and they're doing this -- you know, this video. So, we're going to
play it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICOLE KIDMAN, ACTRESS, "THE PERFECT COUPLE": We are so, so thrilled for both of you.
SCHREIBER: To Benji and his beautiful bride.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. and Mrs. Winbury, any words of wisdom for the bride and groom?
KIDMAN: Oh, come on. Yes. Yes.
SCHREIBER: If you are half as lucky as your mother and I have been, you will have a very long and a very, very happy marriage. Cheers, B. We love
you.
KIDMAN: We love you. We love you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The bride and groom. Happy wedding eve.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Happy wedding eve.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Happy wedding eve. I love this woman to death. To death.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: To death, not such a subtle piece of dialogue. I want to ask you, because this is based on a series by the novelist Elin Hilderbrand,
bestselling author. For those who haven't read the book, first of all, do you think people need to read the book or do you think you'd like to give a
little bit of a pracy (ph) as to what the story is about?
BIER: So, here's the thing, I didn't purposely not read the book until a couple of weeks before we started shooting because I was so involved in the
scripts and I did assume that a lot of people who would be watching the show had not read the book. So, I thought I better stay in that position.
So, I'm -- I have those glasses on where I can assess whether things works without having read the book or not.
And then, I read the book. And what Elin Hilderbrand does magnificently is that she's got so much texture into a society. She's got so much, sort of
that beachy, sort of presumably laid back, upper classy American thing. She -- I understood so much about that texture when I read the book, but I was
also pleased that I have not read it because the series are very different, although the soul of the book is -- it's very loyal to the actual core soul
of the book. But the structure and storyline is very different.
AMANPOUR: So, we see there the perfect couple, because Nicole Kidman playing the author, wife, mother, married to Liev Schreiber. You think that
they are the perfect couple until, well, sometimes you don't, but nonetheless. Well, maybe they are. It's a mystery within a mystery.
But I want to ask you, what was it like working with her again? And how come you keep choosing her to play this kind of murder mystery kind of
roles? The last time was with "The Undoing" that you directed with Hugh Grant, which was hugely successful.
BIER: Well, she's very enigmatic and she has a kind of you know, and I think Nicole, she's so enigmatic. And I think she probably has secrets she
doesn't know herself.
AMANPOUR: In real-life.
BIER: You know what I mean? She has this kind of -- you know, she's got so many layers. But also, she's totally fearless. She is and she weirdly is
devoid of vanity. You know, you have this amazingly, I mean, amazingly, stunningly beautiful woman where you kind of -- you literally -- you know,
when I stand next to her, you know, I kind of reach her mid waist. I kind of feel like I'm looking up to this sort of beautiful giraffe like
creature. But she doesn't care.
[13:30:00]
She's much more of a tomboy than she's somebody who really cares about her looks, and I find that really interesting. And I find that kind of mix
really fascinating. And so, it doesn't -- you don't kind of run out of interesting facets to her because it just seems endless.
AMANPOUR: Now, all the women are actually interesting. The men are more kind of funny and a little bit weak, a little bit, I think, most of them.
Some of them are quite funny. Some of them angry, some of them are wounded. But the women are really quite strong. And it's not an accident. The
writer, Jenna Lamia, she said, the theme that emerged there was that powerful females don't have to be rivals. Powerful females can be allies.
And as I say, you've got Nicole Kidman, you've got Eve Houston and you've got Dakota Fanning and you've got a bunch of really important and beautiful
young established women. Do you think they're allies though in this? When I watched the first -- you know, the first five segments, they seem to be
much more butting heads. A little bit towards the end, there was a little bit of sympathies shown between some of them.
BIER: Look, I don't consider them allies in this, but I do think that they're very strong and I do think that the men -- I mean, part of what I
thought was fun about this was that there is a kind of sense that the men are way weaker and the female are much stronger.
And, you know, I'm going to be forever canceled if I ask the question, whether that possibly reflect the real-life.
AMANPOUR: You're going to get canceled.
BIER: I will get canceled. Yes. But --
AMANPOUR: But does that interest you?
BIER: It does interest me.
AMANPOUR: The balance of power generally between the --
BIER: Yes, yes. I also think that part of the -- I think part of that conflict is somehow an artificial conflict. And I think potentially, these
women could be allies, but you better finish the show.
AMANPOUR: It's true. Potentially they could be. That's why I say it. You sort of creep up to a point where you think there's going to be some
revelation or some sort of empathy, sympathy shown. And then they all sort of plunge back into their roles there.
You said once, I do think moviemaking is about seduction, and I do think seduction will then allow me to emphasize things that I personally think
are important.
So, what in this case, were the important matters for you in this story?
BIER: I think by doing something really sexy and delicious and fun and not homework like at all, I do think that you could kind of sneak in -- you
know, a political commentary might be a bit pretentious to say in this context, but there is a sort of moral, social commentary in terms of the
world of wealth, the sort of entitlement, the concede that the rules don't apply to you just because you are wealthy and privileged. That whole thing
I found important, interesting, and worthwhile describing.
And I'm more keen to describe it in a sort of lightweight manner than I am in a heavyweight because I actually think it works better.
AMANPOUR: Can I ask you whether that may come from perhaps your own life, your own history? You were -- I mean, this is obviously all about waspy
America, right? It couldn't be more waspy. You grew up an observant Jew in Denmark. What was your family's story before the war, during the war? Do
you think that may have -- you know, may influence some of what you find interesting in moviemaking today?
BIER: For sure. For sure, my background and for sure, you know, I'm a -- you know, I'm a second generation. You know, my father went with stateless
a big part of his life. For sure that history has impacted what I want to tell. But I think also recognizing that you don't necessarily tell
important stuff by signaling this is important.
It has also been really crucial to me because I do feel that a lot of the signaling this is important gets lost
AMANPOUR: Yes. and people think you're sort of bashing them over the head with some kind of cuddle.
BIER: Yes, yes.
AMANPOUR: Yes. Look, you've had incredibly successful movies. In 2011, "A Better World" won the Oscar and you came close to it another time, right?
BIER: Before that.
AMANPOUR: Before that?
BIER: Yes, after the wedding.
AMANPOUR: Yes, yes, yes.
BIER: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Yes, but "Bird Box," which was hugely, hugely successful, deals with the mother trying to protect her children from a really calamitous
external threat. Again, was that from your family experience? Did you draw upon anything in your own life for that?
[13:35:00]
BIER: You know, I want to say everything I've done have dealt with families in one way or the other. And for some reason, I always feel that
families who we are even if we -- you know, even for people who have no contact with their families, it still defines them. And it has always
interested me.
And as you mentioned earlier, I think it has to do with my history. It has to do with my family history, and it has to do with, quite frankly, having
an incredibly close relationship with my family. And so, it's always on my mind, and I think it's always part of who I am and what I want to do.
AMANPOUR: So, you must have been, I mean, chortling inside if you have such a close relationship and "The Perfect Couple" cast to the story, the
family there is dysfunctional, that must've been interesting.
BIER: It's a lot of fun.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
BIER: It's a lot of fun. And the weird thing is that you can look at your own family and you can look at ways of talking and then you can apply it to
something which is very different, and it still has similarities. It's very, very interesting.
AMANPOUR: Thank you very much for being with us.
BIER: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
AMANPOUR: A pleasure.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And all episodes of "The Perfect Couple" are now streaming on Netflix. Well, up next, America's public schools are facing a crisis. Since
the pandemic, enrollment has plummeted with around a million families opting for private schools or homeschooling. The result? Mass closures
across the country. And according to our next guest, it's predominantly impact impacting black and Latino communities.
ProPublica reporter Alec MacGillis joins Hari Sreenivasan to discuss his latest article for the New Yorker, The Death of School 10 and the future of
American public education.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARI SREENIVASAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Bianna. Alec MacGillis, thanks so much for joining us. Your story focuses on School 10
in Rochester. First, for people who might not have read it, why School 10? Why Rochester?
ALEC MACGILLIS, REPORTER, PROPUBLICA: I wanted to look into this problem that I was hearing about, which is that public school enrollment around the
country has plunged since the pandemic, down by about a million students nationwide. And this, of course, causes a challenge for cities that have
lots of empty schools or under enrolled schools.
And I saw that Rochester, New York was facing an especially stark example of this challenge. A huge drop in enrollment since the pandemic. They've
lost about 10 percent of their students since 2019, and as a result, we're having to think about closing a lot of schools and embark on that process.
We're basically already into this process that a lot of other cities around the country are going to be facing.
And so, I went to Rochester a couple times to report on what they were doing there and just how wrenching this process was going to be for this
city and for other cities around the country as they face this steep drop in public school enrollment.
SREENIVASAN: So, connect those dots for us. I mean, what was it that kind of precipitated the drop in enrollment and how does that affect the budget
for the school closure?
MACGILLIS: It's pretty straightforward. I mean, we closed the schools for a really long time in lots of cities, lots of districts around this
country, and many cities schools stayed closed for in-person learning for a year and a half, all the way until September of '21. And so, you just had a
lot of families that chose to leave the public schools during that period. They left for private schools, parochial schools, many of which had stayed
open for most of the pandemic. They left for homeschooling.
And then, even after schools reopened, many of these districts, when families -- when some families came back, when some kids came back, they
found that things were so unruly. A lot of schools were really wrestling with very kind of just kind of crazy behaviors in classrooms, kids coming
back after being away for so long, being kind of unsocialized. So, a lot of families made the decision at that point that they are going to move their
kids out of the public schools.
And so, we've had this really unprecedented drop nationwide, about 1 million kids off of the public school rolls. And that very naturally leads
many cities with more space, more staff, more buildings than they need, and they're now then having to consider this really, really difficult upheaval
that's involved in closing schools in certain neighborhoods.
SREENIVASAN: So, if Rochester is not alone, if this is part of a national trend of public school enrollment decline, does that mean that we are
likely to see in other cities what is happening in Rochester, this kind of belt tightening where if you've got this building costs and if you've got
the teacher costs, but you don't have the student sort of checks that come in with them, you're going to have to do this?
[13:40:00]
MACGILLIS: Absolutely. And my article mentioned some other cities that are also embarking on this, and it's actually not just cities that we think of
as being very heavily sort of disadvantaged cities like Rochester, New York, even sort of wealthier cities are going through this because, really,
you saw wherever school stayed closed for a very long time, you saw -- you're seeing this challenge being especially acute.
Seattle is facing the closure of many of its elementary schools. Ann Arbor, Michigan, a quite wealthy city, is facing a huge budget deficit as a result
of having lost about a thousand students there. Columbus, Ohio is looking to close a lot of schools. Santa Clara, California and Silicon Valley, they
are -- they faced a huge drop in enrollment. This is happening in lots of places, but especially in the sort of blue cities and in counties that had
their schools closed, especially long during the pandemic.
SREENIVASAN: OK. So, if the schools are having to be closed. Is there a pattern about what type of schools get closed more often or what the
student population is of these schools that are most impacted?
MACGILLIS: Yes. Unfortunately, there is. To the extent that the closures were especially long in many cities, many heavily black and brown and low-
income city, low-income districts, and it's those districts that are now having to close schools, you're seeing -- because of this enrollment
decline, you're seeing a disproportionate effect in those communities.
And then on top of that, there's research that is showing, even in prior years, when districts set out to close schools because of under enrollment,
that seems to fall disproportionately heavily on black and brown majority schools, even beyond what one would expect from the enrollment numbers and
the school performance numbers. It just seems to, unfortunately, kind of cut that way. There seems to be a bias, really, in the way that districts
end up closing schools.
And the research also shows, unfortunately, that kids whose schools have been closed, to have to move to other schools, that that has a consequence,
a lasting consequence on their academic performance. That doesn't mean it's a mistake to close the schools. Many cases, it's unavoidable. If your
numbers get so low, it's really hard to justify keeping schools open. But it does have a lasting consequence on the kids whose schools have been
closed.
SREENIVASAN: You take the reader through this story with the help of a couple of characters. One is a mom who just sounds amazing, Janice Kapoor
(ph). Tell us a little bit about her.
MACGILLIS: Yes, I decided to focus on Janice (ph) because she was just especially committed to trying to keep her school open. It's a school
called School 10. It's in a really quite lovely, sort of, working class, middle class, majority black neighborhood in Southwest Rochester.
The school's been around for a long time. It's a beautiful old school, built way back in 1916. And the community feels very attached to it. And
it's just a very considered -- seemed to be a very warm, welcoming kind of school. It has had challenges with test scores like many schools in
Rochester, but it's really quite a beloved school.
And so, when it ended up on the list to be closed, there was a real uproar. And Janice (ph), who's on the PTA there, leads the PTA there, became very
engaged in trying to save the school. And it was all the more painful in a sense, because the school was not -- the building was not going to be
closed, School 10 was going to be shut down, and all the kids there were going to be dispersed. But the building was still going to be used for a
public Montessori program that had somewhat different demographics than School 10.
And so, it was very painful, and Janice (ph) was engaged for months and trying to keep the school open and then was not able to. And it's just been
-- she was very eloquent in talking about just how wrenching this kind of process is for families like hers.
SREENIVASAN: You know, what's interesting is that even if this school that you're writing about didn't kind of measure up on test scores or whatever
it is that the kind of different thresholds were, it seems that there was a sense of community here, that people still -- that a school did bring these
families together.
MACGILLIS: Yes, it really was. It was so clear. I spent the last couple of days of the school year there in late June and got to see various end of
year ceremonies that they were holding, and it was so poignant and really affecting to see just how strongly students, kids and their families were
reacting to the end of this particular school.
They had a big ceremony in the gym auditorium where they were -- where the principal was calling up every single educator in school, every teacher,
every aid, every staffer by name. And you could see the school -- the kids just, you know, shrieking with joy and gratitude for their teachers. You
could sort of tell, of course, which ones were the most beloved by the decibel of the shrieks.
[13:45:00]
SREENIVASAN: Yes.
MACGILLIS: You know, it was just a reminder that even a school like this that had, by some metrics, subpar scores was still a beloved place and was
an important -- very important institution in this community. And that was now going to be lost, just like -- just as it's going to be lost in so many
other places around the country that are going to be having to close doors.
SREENIVASAN: I also wanted to highlight the -- I think the parent's name was Chrissy Miller (ph), who is a parent of a special needs child. What
happens to kids like hers?
MACGILLIS: Yes, this is this -- you know, especially wrenching aspect to this. You have cities like Rochester that have, over the years, as their
enrollment has declined, even before the pandemic, enrollment was declining in Rochester, though not the same speed as we've seen recently. And in this
district, you see a lot of families leaving for the suburbs, families leaving for charter schools.
And you -- and the district -- the kids that remain in the district are very disproportionately have special needs designations. And so, you just
have a very high special needs population. And for these kids, these closures were especially painful, difficult because they're so used to
their -- their routines are so important to them, the stability, the reliability of their -- both their educators and their fellow classmates
means so much to them.
And so, it was -- there was this real plea coming up in those parents in Rochester as much as possible keep the kids and their educators together.
As they are -- as the school or many that were going was being shut down, and it was just very hard for the district to actually do that when it came
time to make assignments. So, in fact, I think a lot of those parents are just going to leave for homeschooling or maybe move elsewhere. And that's
simply going to further exacerbate the falling enrollment in a city like Rochester.
SREENIVASAN: You write about a program that Rochester has, what, the Urban Suburban Program? Is that unique? I mean, and is that contributing to
almost kind of urban flight?
MACGILLIS: Rochester has -- years ago, they set up this program that was intended to kind of increase movement between the suburbs and the city. So,
it's easier to kind of move across lines. Over years -- over the years, not surprisingly, most of the movement has gone to the suburbs where urban --
kids in the city can apply to go to suburban schools and suburban schools can kind of pick and choose who they want to take, and that has had
veritable effects of kind of pulling some of the most engaged families out of the city schools.
There are similar programs in some other cities. And so, you've had these dynamics that are going on for some time now that have made things tough
for urban schools. The fact is that now the pandemic closures and the consequences of that enrollment have just kind of just wildly exacerbated
this pre-existing trend.
And it gets to the point in some cities where you really start to wonder, is this institution going to survive? Rochester now well more -- fewer than
half of kids born in Rochester are expected to be attending the district schools. And you just wonder at what point does the system get so small
that it's hard to almost sustain itself?
SREENIVASAN: There's a study out by a group called Learning Counsel that predicted public education is set to lose 16 million enrollments by 2030. I
mean, that's just six years away. And it says, by that time, public schooling is predicted to be at or just above 50 percent of the market.
Where are the growth rates here? Is it automatically going from public school to private school, or how much is homeschooling increasing?
MACGILLIS: It's really both of those. So, you have -- you've got a huge boom in homeschooling since the start of the pandemic. And the concern
there, of course, is that in so many states, it's very, very unregulated. And so, for some -- in some families homeschooling can be a very serious,
substantive thing where the family really commits itself and it makes -- they decide that makes sense for their children.
You know, other cases, unfortunately, homeschooling can really look not all that much different than truancy, where there's just not a lot going on in
that home. And we have very little way of knowing in many states what's actually happening.
Private schools are also seeing a big boom in many states, partly because of this massive expansion in private school vouchers that we're seeing in
many -- mostly red and purple states, where vouchers have now become essentially universal, used to be that they were targeted only toward lower
income kids and disadvantaged school districts. Now, they're available in about a dozen states. They're available to any family, regardless of
income, regardless of where they are in the state.
[13:50:00]
SREENIVASAN: How much does politics play into all of this? I mean, look, we're having this conversation and a heated election cycle. You know, even
though the former president has kind of distanced himself from Project 2025. I mean, one of the plans that the Heritage Foundation laid out was
really an evisceration of the Department of Education, which has been a goal for a lot of conservatives for a long time. I mean, that said, most of
the funding for schools comes at the state and local level, right?
MACGILLIS: You know, some of the Heritage Foundation plans, the Project 2025 plans, for education could have some real impact. There's some --
there's plenty of funding that comes from the feds to schools, especially money that's intended for lower income schools. But most of the education
funding and policy setting in this country happens at the state and local level.
That's why you're seeing what you're seeing around the country now, where you have the enrollment drops, especially steep in states that kept their
schools closed a long time. Meanwhile, you've got the voucher money flowing in states that haven expanded those programs. It really is -- that's really
where the real action is at the state and local level. And this enrollment decline, you know, to be clear, is happening most of all in the blue states
that kept schools closed for so long. It's -- that's what's happening here with this particular dynamic.
It's not really something that's -- ironically, it's not being driven by the conservative think tanks who have been hoping to undermine public
schools for years, it really, in some sense, happened at the volition of the blue states and cities themselves.
SREENIVASAN: So, how do you had -- you know, you've talked to a lot of these parents. Is there a way to stop this kind of the spiral?
MACGILLIS: Absolutely. This is the kind of the spiral, the tipping point that this article is warning about happening in cities like this and many
others around the country. And I think to stop that, it's really true to arrest that cycle, it's going to take a real recognition by people who
believe in public schools, who believe they're important institution and foundational institution in our country to recognize the extent of the
crisis right now and to recognize what happened coming out of the pandemic and to be honest about that and to really somehow just confront of it
directly and try to at least slow or even possibly reverse some of these trends, because there really is the chance of that kind of a spiral.
SREENIVASAN: I wonder how much of this is also an issue of public perception. I mean, there was a study out by Pew that essentially showed
just over half of people don't have as much faith in the institution of K- 12 education. And it's more on the Republican side than it is on the Democratic side. But how do you kind of rebuild that trust?
MACGILLIS: It's really difficult and it's -- and it is -- you know, it's something that I spoke about this with Randi Weingarten, the head of the
American Federation of Teachers, back in September of 2020 when I was reporting on the school closures, and when it was becoming clear that the
schools were not going to be reopening that fall in many districts around the country, especially in heavily Democratic areas, and I just put the
question to her, you know, are you worried, as someone who cares a lot about the public schools, as someone who is -- all your, you know, your --
the educators for your union, their jobs depend on this institution, are you worried that a lot of families are not going to come back and they are
also going to lose support from taxpayers after these extended closures?
And she expressed confidence that would not happen, that it was just so clear that public schools are such an important part of our country, of our
communities, that they would inevitably survive this hiatus. And I think what we're seeing now is that that may have proved over optimistic.
SREENIVASAN: Senior reporter for ProPublica, Alec MacGillis, thanks so much for joining us.
MACGILLIS: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And finally, remembering a giant of the stage and screen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES EARL JONES, ACTOR: Thing the light touches is our kingdom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: That is the voice of iconic actor James Earl Jones, who died on Monday, the age of 93. From Mufasa in "The Lion King" to Darth Vader in
"Star Wars" movies, he is known for voicing some legendary characters. And some audiences might also recognize him as the man behind these iconic
three words.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JONES: This is CNN.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Well now, we'll end on a reflection from the actor himself, just after he had won the Honorary Lifetime Achievement Award at the 2011
Oscars.
[13:55:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JONES: I read something in this morning's paper about someone wishing to not being able to change someone's mind in the world, to change their
hearts. And I think that's the only thing when an actor looks out over the political landscape that he can hope for.
But you've got to really focus on that, not the polemics of stories, but the heartbeat of the stories, and hope to connect with the heartbeat of the
audience.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: A true American icon. Well, that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our
podcast. And remember, you can always catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media.
Thanks so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
