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Amanpour
Interview with London School of Economics Professor of Political Science Fawaz Gerges; Interview with "The Gates of Gaza" Author and Haaretz Diplomatic Correspondent Amir Tibon; Interview with Actress Meryl Streep; Interview with Former Afghan Lawmaker Fawzia Koofi; Interview with Former Governor of Bamyan Province and Former Afghan Minister for Women's Affairs Habiba Sarabi; Interview with "That Librarian" Author Amanda Jones; Interview with Los Angeles Times Middle East Bureau Chief Nabih Bulos. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired September 27, 2024 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
Israel approaches one full year of war as the conflict expands to Lebanon and Prime Minister Netanyahu addresses the U.N. Haaretz diplomatic
correspondent Amir Tibon joins the show to discuss the worsening situation and recounts the horrors he experienced on October 7th in his new book,
"The Gates of Gaza."
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FAWZIA KOOFI, FORMER AFGHAN LAWMAKER: I think the Taliban have this phobia of educated women because the more educated a woman become, the more
independent a woman become, it's a threat for patriarchy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- the fight for women's rights in Afghanistan. Christiane speaks to legendary actress Meryl Streep about the documentary, "The Sharp
Edge of Peace," alongside former Afghan negotiator Fawzia Koofi and Afghanistan's first female governor, Dr. Habiba Sarabi.
Also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANDA JONES, AUTHOR, "THAT LIBRARIAN": I spent days crying so hard my eyes swelled shut.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- she spoke out against book bans. Then the death threat started. Hari Sreenivasan speaks to national award-winning librarian and
author Amanda Jones about her book that librarian, the fight against book banning in America.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
Israel targets Hezbollah's leader, Hassan Nasrallah, in Southern Beirut today. Huge plumes of smoke were seen rising from the densely populated
neighborhood. Several buildings flattened in the strike.
The attack occurred soon after Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu addressed the U.N. General Assembly today. He said his country is, quote,
"fighting for its life."
Jomana Karadsheh joins us now from Beirut. Jeremy Diamond is in Haifa in Northern Israel. Let's begin with Jomana.
Jomana, this happening over the course of the last hour and 15 minutes or so. CNN can now confirm that the target was Hassan Nasrallah no indication
as to whether or not he survived this assassination attempt, but just tell us what you saw, what was on the minds of civilians there around the
location of the strike with the huge plumes of smoke we've seen on television.
JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, Bianna, speaking to people here, they say that this was the biggest Israeli strike on Beirut.
Those several explosions that this city and its residents felt since 2006, since that war between Israel and Hezbollah.
We, our team, was on the roof. We have felt our whole building shake. It was massive explosions. And then, we saw that thick plume of smoke rising
from Southern Beirut suburbs, where you do have a Hezbollah presence there, where their leaders are known to have been based. But this is also heavily,
densely populated part of the country, one of the most in Lebanon.
And according to the Lebanese state news agency, they say now that at least six buildings have been reduced to rubble. And, you know, considering the
intensity of that strike that we felt and that we witnessed here, that's really not surprising. Clearly, here, you know, from what we could see,
that this was large munitions that were used in that strike.
I can tell you that there is real apprehension right now in the city as my colleague, Tamara Qiblawi, was saying, as we heard those reports, and as we
heard Jeremy confirming from an Israeli official, that the target of that strike was Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah.
You know, our colleague, Tamara, saying that this is a doomsday scenario that many in Lebanon have feared for a very long time. Dangerous escalation
does not begin to describe the situation. Bianna.
[13:05:00]
GOLODRYGA: Let's go to Jeremy Diamond. Jeremy, we heard from Jomana just having witnessed the sheer size and magnitude of this strike. We also heard
the Admiral Hagari, the spokesperson for the IDF, make an announcement shortly after this strike. It was brief, it was concise. He didn't take any
questions, but he made clear that Israel was targeting the central headquarters, the command-and-control center of Hezbollah there. That was
their target.
Obviously, we now can confirm that Hassan Nasrallah and perhaps those around him were who they were targeting in that command-and-control center.
But we have no indication yet as to whether or not any of them were in fact killed.
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right. I'm told the Israeli military is still conducting what's known as a battle damage
assessment to assess whether or not the target of their strike, as I reported earlier, Hassan Nasrallah, whether or not he was actually killed
or wounded in this strike.
At this point, my sources do not have any indication of whether or not the strike was successful in terms of taking out Hassan Nasrallah.
What is clear, though, from -- as Jomana was just saying, is that multiple buildings were destroyed in this strike. A very large plume of smoke. And
given then fact that the Israeli military says that their target was an underground command-and-control center, the central headquarters of
Hezbollah, according to the Israeli military, that would very strongly suggest the likely use of some very heavy munitions.
We have seen, of course, in Gaza when the Israeli military has gone after underground targets, they very frequently use these 2,000-pound bombs,
which leave just an enormous crater in their wake. They are designed to penetrate deep underground. But the result of them, in addition to going
after those underground targets, is that they often kill an enormous amount of people above ground as well.
And as we are seeing reports of several buildings, six according to the Lebanese state news agency, that have been flattened in this strike, that
indicates a very, very high death toll here and likely, many of those dead are likely to be civilians. And so, that puts us, of course, beyond the
human -- the devastating human toll that we are likely to see play out on the ground. It also puts us at a very dangerous moment once again in this
region.
We have seen over the course of the last week, as the Israeli military has very intentionally sought to escalate this conflict going, you know, one
rung up the ladder after the next, with the goal of getting Hezbollah to stop its rockets -- rocket attacks on Northern Israel, the Israeli
government believes that this strategy can get Hezbollah to recalculate their decision to fire those rockets, as they have been saying, in
solidarity with the Palestinian people in Gaza to try and decouple those two fronts.
For now, though, all it has resulted in is Hezbollah ratcheting up its attacks on Northern Israel, as well as firing the first ballistic missile
towards the Israeli city of Tel Aviv in Central Israel earlier this week. All be at one that was intercepted by the Israeli military.
Hezbollah, for its part, of course, says that if Israel agrees to a ceasefire in Gaza, stops its war in Gaza, then it will stop firing rockets
on Northern Israel. But this Israeli government has clearly chosen a very different strategy. Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, the Israeli government has been trying to delink the two wars going on there in the south of Israel and obviously the escalating
confrontation that we're seeing there in the north. Jeremy Diamond, thank you so much.
Fawaz Gerges is a professor of political science at the London School of Economics and joins us now. Thank you so much for joining us during this
breaking news that we've been covering. A senior Israeli security official tells me that the goal is clear, we want 60,000 Israelis to go home and not
just go home, but be safe.
My question to you, given the escalation that we've now seen over the course of the last several weeks, and obviously, today the targeted
assassination of Hassan Nasrallah, do you think Israel has come closer to accomplishing that goal?
FAWAZ GERGES, PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE, LONDON SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS: Far from it. The Americans, the British, the French, the International
Community has made it very clear to Benjamin Netanyahu and his government that if they are serious about returning the 65,000 displaced Israeli
people to their homes, the only way out is a diplomatic solution. What Israel has chosen is all-out war.
Just to really say a few words about the massive escalation in the past one hour, regardless of whether Hassan Nasrallah is killed or not, my reading,
and I hope I am wrong, this is the tipping point. This is the spark that will most likely trigger all-out war. You'll see in the next day or so.
This is it. Hezbollah will retaliate strategically.
[13:10:00]
And that's exactly what Benjamin Netanyahu has been gunning for. He wants really a justification to really go to launch a ground invasion. And a
ground invasion will be really a long war, a much longer war than the war in Gaza. It will likely last for a decade. It will come to haunt the
Israeli army in the same way. That Afghanistan and Iraq hunted the American army for 20 years, even though there is no comparison between America as
the most powerful nation and Israel as a middle power.
GOLODRYGA: And the last war, we should remind viewers, between Israel and Hezbollah in 2006 lasted 34 days and neither side truly being able to claim
victory in that war. I'm just curious in the early days following October 7th and October 8th was when Hezbollah began launching missiles into
Israel. There were some in the Israeli security establishment, including their defense minister, who were arguing and pushing for the opening of a
second front to go into -- before even going into Gaza, actually going into Southern Lebanon.
The U.S. said they wanted no part of that and strongly urged Israel not to do that. And Prime Minister Netanyahu did as well. What do you think has
shifted at this point, if you do believe he now does want to go on for a full on war?
GERGES: Well, what has shifted is that because he really has not achieved his total victory in Gaza. There is basically a stalemate in Gaza. Benjamin
Netanyahu repeated the same thing in the United Nations today. He wants total victory. He wants Hamas to surrender. What really means is that he's
saying no to the American and the Qataris and the Egyptian, you know, hostage deal proposals. And really by going to the Northern front, I think
he is diverting attention from Gaza.
What Benjamin Netanyahu does not really wants a hostage deal with Hamas. He wants Hamas to surrender. He wants total victory over Hamas, but here is
the problem for Benjamin Netanyahu. Lebanon is not Gaza. Hezbollah is not Hamas. Hezbollah is 10 times, if not 100 times more powerful than Hamas.
And if and when Israel launches its war, you're going to have tens of thousands of skilled fighter migrating to Lebanon from Syria, from Iraq and
from Iran. Even if Iran does not really join the fray, this will be a long war.
Logically and rationally, one would have expected Israeli leaders to have learned, the lessons of history of 1982 and 2006. But obviously,
irrationality is as important as rationality in world politics, and truly, I'm not exaggerating, Benjamin Netanyahu is aiming for a forever war.
Israel -- and I'm not exaggerating, Israel will never have peace and security if it aims for a ground invasion of Lebanon.
It can destroy Lebanon. It will destroy the infrastructure in Lebanon. But this war can never be won militarily, as the Americans have impressed on
Netanyahu and the Israeli government for the past 10 months, but they have failed to use leverage in order to really nudge Netanyahu to accept a
hostage deal in Gaza and now, is his fire in Lebanon.
GOLODRYGA: The IDF has stressed that it has significantly degraded Hezbollah's capabilities, while not denying the strength and not comparing
what they are capable of to, as you just did, Hamas, and the fact that they have tens of thousands of rockets still at their ready. But given that we
now know the target was Hassan Nasrallah, if he was in fact assassinated, and we've seen a number of other commanders assassinated over the course of
the last week and a half, what does that do in terms of stability and leadership for a Hezbollah?
GERGES: Well, look, Israel has delivered some very heavy psychological and operational blows against Hezbollah. Even Hassan Nasrallah has acknowledged
this. He said, we have suffered major blows, killing top commanders. I mean, the explosion, the communication explosions. Thousands of the rank
and file have been injured and neutralized.
Obviously, Israel has infiltrated the communications system of Hezbollah. But let's not -- Hezbollah is not just -- I mean, you're talking about
asymmetrical warfare. Hezbollah has between 20,000 and 50,000 active fighters, 100,000 reservists. Hezbollah is deeply entrenched and in an
asymmetrical war, as the United States has learned the hard way during the war on terror. You can never, never win an asymmetrical warfare.
[13:15:00]
I mean, think of how Israel -- what Israel has done in the past 12 months in Gaza, they have destroyed the Gaza Strip, yet Hamas continues to fight.
It has moved into a guerrilla warfare. In Lebanon, is an entirely different thing because Lebanon is an open front. You have borders with Syria and
Iraq, and Iran might really bring major supplies. This is why the Americans are really trying to save Israel from itself, from Benjamin Netanyahu
escalation.
But as he has -- as he said, just two hours ago at the United Nations, he is winning. He is winning. And that really means is that no ceasefire, no
de-escalation. I fear, and again, I hope I am wrong, the next few days and next few months and probably the next few years, are -- will be
catastrophic. Mainly for the Palestinians and the Lebanese, but also for the Israelis as well.
GOLODRYGA: And we now know that Prime Minister Netanyahu has cut short his New York trip to return to Israel following this news. Fawaz Gerges, thank
you so much for joining us.
GERGES: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: Amir Tibon is a diplomatic correspondent at the Israeli newspaper Haaretz. He joins us now live from New York. Amir, we had booked
you to talk about your very compelling book, "The Gates of Gaza," about what your family went through on October 7th, as that one-year anniversary
approaches, and your own family. Your father had to rescue you from your kibbutz as it was attacked. We'll get to that in just a moment.
But I do have to ask you about the breaking news this hour. Prime Minister Netanyahu cutting his trip to New York short, heading back to Israel upon
this news of the IDF targeting Hassan Nasrallah. We have yet to know whether or not he was assassinated. Your reaction?
AMIR TIBON, AUTHOR, "THE GATES OF GAZA" AND DIPLOMATIC CORRESPONDENT, HAARETZ: Yes, we're trying to gather information. And right now, what
we're hearing is a bit of a contrast from sources in Israel that sound cautiously optimistic about this, but nothing official yet. Just some
rumors masqueraded as briefings to reporters, if that's the way I can put it. And then, a mirror picture of that coming from a little bit of the
Lebanese media and outlets in the Arab world that are now reporting based on their sources that Nasrallah was not killed.
But I really think we should all be a little patient here and wait for something more authoritative to emerge. It's clear that he was the target.
It's clear that if he was there, just based on the pictures and the magnitude of the dynamite that exploded over there, that, you know, the
chances to survive such an attack are not high.
But I think it's not a coincidence that we are not getting any official statement from either side right now whether this Israeli strike succeeded
in eliminating Nasrallah, which would be Israel's really greatest achievement in this ongoing battle with Hezbollah that we've been living
through for almost a year now, since they began firing on Israel on October 8th, or whether it did not succeed. And then, of course, a big question
would be, what will Hezbollah do in retaliation?
GOLODRYGA: Well, and that is yet to be determined, and a lot of this obviously lying in whether or not Hassan Nasrallah was indeed assassinated
here. The Israeli argument, the IDF's case that they're trying to portray to the world is that this is their way of escalating to de-escalate, to
avoid another massive large-scale ground war.
Do you think that -- this is an effective strategy in terms of getting there, in terms of avoiding what we saw in 2006?
TIBON: Well, it's a little too early to judge, but it's surely a high-risk strategy, because if it works, then basically you would see Hezbollah
accepting the Israeli demand to detach the Lebanese arena from what's happening in Gaza.
And let's say that, you know, just judging on the merits, the Israeli demand on this makes a lot of sense, because Israel did not attack
Hezbollah on October 8th, Hezbollah attacked Israel, right? After Hamas launched its attack on Israel on October 7, Israel, like any other country
would do, chose to retaliate and strike back at Hamas in Gaza. And that's when Hezbollah, completely without any justification on their behalf, began
to attack Israel. It wasn't like Israel, first of all, went after Hezbollah in Lebanon.
And so, what the Israeli side has been saying all this time is, we don't accept this linkage that Nasrallah had created that he's going to fire on
Israel as long as the war in Gaza continues. And if this Israeli strategy were to prove itself, we would see Hezbollah agreeing to such a step, to
basically stop the fighting in Lebanon, regardless of what happens in Gaza.
But there's a risk that this strategy could also lead to the opposite result, which is Hezbollah continuing and intensifying its attacks, and
perhaps ending the Iran joining as well because of the amount of the hits that Hezbollah, a very important project for the Iranian regime, has been
taking in the last two weeks.
[13:20:00]
GOLODRYGA: And as we heard, Hassan Nasrallah even acknowledging the significant blow that the last few weeks has been on Hezbollah. But, Amir,
just in terms of what we saw and heard from Fawaz is saying that, in his view, Prime Minister Netanyahu wants an endless war because -- and he's not
the only one saying this. It's -- many Israelis say that whether it's the war in Gaza and perhaps opening a new front in the north, this is his way
of remaining in power. It's a very cynical view, obviously, but I'm just wondering from an Israeli perspective, are the majority of Israelis, are
they willing to see another full-on war in the north at this point? Are they prepared?
TIBON: I think what the majority of Israelis want is a solution to two issues. One of them is the return of our hostages from Gaza, where we still
have a hundred people in the hands of the enemy, dozens of them considered to be alive, and a safe return to their homes, of tens of thousands of
Israelis who have been forced to evacuate from the border with Lebanon due to Hezbollah's attacks.
If those two issues can be achieved via a diplomatic solution that will include the release of the hostages in Gaza and Hezbollah withdrawing from
the border with Israel, moving backwards north into Lebanon and then giving a sense of security to Israelis living in the north to come back to their
homes, then I think the vast majority of the population would want to avoid a war.
Because achieving at least the second goal, the return of the people to their homes in the north via a war, would be very costly. If it involves a
ground invasion, there could be a lot of soldiers killed in this war. And then, Israel, this means that, you know, this will touch on everybody.
GOLODRYGA: Yes.
TIBON: So, a war is not a good choice. It may be a necessity if there's no other way. And we are seeing this diplomatic effort right now led by the
United States and France and other countries to try to find, again, this holy grail of Middle East diplomacy at the moment, this agreement that in
one stroke would end the war in Gaza, release the hostages, and end the fighting in the north.
And from the Israeli side, ending the war in the north would have to include some kind of withdrawal by Hezbollah from the borderline. Because
otherwise, people will be asked to go back to a reality in which Hezbollah is watching over their homes and preparing to attack them, and this is
something that's unacceptable.
GOLODRYGA: That is Hezbollah upholding its end of the bargain in Resolution 1701, after the war in 2006, where they would remain north of
the Litani River, which they -- you know, we all know they did violated.
TIBON: But it would have to be implemented.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, it would have to be implemented, yes.
TIBON: Speeches and decisions from all -- from everybody involved are easy. The question is the action.
GOLODRYGA: Well, that brings me to your book and your personal story, because it's all intertwined in some respect. You were living at Nahal Oz
and your kibbutz there in the south, about half a mile from the Gaza border on October 7th when your small community, 450 or so residents in Nahal Oz
were attacked by over 100 Hamas terrorists. Your home was attacked. You and your wife and your two young daughters were hiding in your safe room until
your father, a general, former general in the IDF actually drove for hours with your mother to rescue you. It's an incredible story that you detail
quite brilliantly and captivating as a read in and of itself.
But what you've done differently in this narrative is that you've also connected it to the history of the kibbutz itself, the kibbutzim across
Israel, and that project going back to its origin the early 1950s. Why did you decide to tell the story this way?
TIBON: Well, emerging from the tragedy of October 7th and what happened specifically in my community, a kibbutz, you can look at it like a small
town or village. So, I'm part of a community where 450 people were living on October 7th, and 15, one, five, were murdered on that day. That's 3
percent of the population. Try to imagine a village or a small town in this country losing 3 percent of its population in such violent, terrible
circumstances in one day.
And on top of that, seven of our people were taken hostage on that day, kidnapped into Gaza. Thank God, five, all the women and the girls were
released in November, thanks to the hostage deal orchestrated by President Biden in the early weeks of the war. And we still have two friends in the
hands of the enemy as we speak, Omri Miran and Tzahi Idan, fathers of young children.
[13:25:00]
And I felt I had to write this story, and to write it, first of all, in English, to an international audience, because I wanted to tell the world
what happened to us on that day. But then I understood that I also had to tell the readers of this book, not just what happened, but where it
happened and who are the people that it happened to.
And that's why I decided to write the book with these two parallel timelines. The timeline of October 7, that begins at 6:30 in the morning,
when a barrage of mortars is launched at my neighborhood. And the timeline of the history of our community, starting from its foundations in the early
years of the State of Israel.
And through the history of the kibbutz, I also tried to tell the history of Israel and Gaza. Because it's a history of war, but also of attempts for
peace. And a history of enmity, but also of neighborly relations. And I try to tell all that in the book. And the two timelines, toward the end of the
book, converge when the history arrives at October 7th.
GOLODRYGA: They converge tragically on October 7th. 15 members of your community were killed that day. As you said, seven were taken hostage, two
still remain Gaza along with the 101 hostages there. We've seen that the human suffering there and the tragedy inflicted on that enclave over the
course of this last year. But I tell everyone that this book also offers some hope in this history. I learned a lot about the cooperation, the
friendships, the joyous gatherings between Gazans and members of your community.
And your message is, if it happened once, it could happen again. Obviously, hard to tell that story right now when we are covering perhaps yet the
opening of another front. But Amir Tibon, it is a fantastic read. Thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.
TIBON: Thank you. And let's do everything we can to get our people back. Get a deal and bring them back alive. This is what we need at this moment,
more than any other action.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, thank you so much. Well, up next, we turn to Afghanistan, where in an unprecedented move, the Taliban are to be taken to the
International Court of Justice. It will be the first time a country will be taken to court over gender discrimination, and it is thanks to the tireless
efforts of the brave Afghan women standing up for their rights, like former lawmaker Fawzia Koofi and the nation's first female governor, Habiba
Sarabi. They joined legendary actress Meryl Streep at the United Nations this week to promote a new documentary called "The Sharp Edge of Peace,"
which follows the doomed efforts of peace talks with the Taliban back in 2020. Christiane sat down with all three of them to discuss how much has
changed.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Meryl, Fawzia, and Habiba, welcome to the program.
MERYL STREEP, ACTRESS: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: I want to ask you first, Meryl, you introduced the film, you were at the United Nations with all the women, the Secretary General was
there. You started by saying the following about your Afghan sisters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STREEP: Today, in Kabul, a female cat has more freedoms than a woman. A cat may go sit on her front stoop and feel the sun on her face. She may
chase a squirrel into the park. A squirrel has more rights than a girl in Afghanistan today because the public parks have been closed to women and
girls by the Taliban. A bird may sing in Kabul, but a girl may not and a woman may not in public. This is extraordinary. This is a suppression of
the natural law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: What about this touches you and makes you be involved?
STREEP: Well, I have followed the plight of women in Afghanistan for about 20 years with my friend Jessica Neuwirth and the work of the Women's Forum.
I have been very interested in women's rights around the world and in the United States, and still am.
But this most recent edict that people can't speak in public, that they have to completely hide themselves, it's like the erasure of an entire
gender, and I don't think it has precedence in history, even in the natural world, that one part of the species erases the presence of another. And I
think it's particularly an eloquent moment to raise where we are in the world with Afghan rights.
AMANPOUR: And Fawzia, you've been a member of parliament for a long time. You've been a really public spokeswoman for Afghanistan and especially the
women of Afghanistan. As Meryl says, she's been following the plight of, well, Afghan women for 20 years.
[13:30:00]
But for 20 years, you had freedoms that you'd never had before. Your film, "The Sharp Edge of Peace," shows Afghan women singing, dancing, playing
taekwondo, girls and women, active members of society. There's a clip of an interview with you on the tarmac of the airport in which you, Fawzia,
expressed real hope. That actually so much change had happened that they could not roll back, the rights for women. We're just going to play that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FAWZIA KOOFI, FORMER AFGHAN LAWMAKER (through translator): The women of Afghanistan are not the same as those of 20 years ago. They are educated.
Now, wherever they live in Afghanistan, they have the right to work, to study, to have human rights, and to be respected on behalf of all women
today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Describe what it's like today.
KOOFI: Well, I think the one thing Taliban failed to understand is that Afghanistan has transformed. And that transformation is not only limited to
Kabul in terms of liberty, in terms of women's rights, in terms of people believing in the future of their daughters more. Like, my father
established the first school in our village, but he never allowed my elder sisters to go to school.
People from the same village, over the last 20 years, came to me asking, school for their girls to be established. So, that's a transformed
Afghanistan and that's a transformed woman of Afghanistan. You see them, despite, you know, being completely erased from any kind of public and
social life, they still protest.
Living in Kabul in Afghanistan these days for any human beings is not easy because the new edict also put rule on what on men's size of beard, you
know, on men's work and job that they can choose. But despite all of that, women still show resilience. That is a sign of different Afghanistan that
the Taliban don't get that. And I think this is the same Afghanistan 1996, where they were suppressing what people and they were silent.
Today, every woman in Afghanistan is a journalist. Every woman in Afghanistan is a TV, by talking about what their experience is. So, as much
as they suffer, they suppress them. It's like, you know, they're popping up in a different way, in a different method.
AMANPOUR: Can I ask you, Habiba, because you were the first appointed governor right after the fall of the Taliban, after, you know, democracy in
a certain way and certainly, more liberty for women came after 2001. Some people think, you know, this was just a project in the urban centers, just
Kabul, just Herat.
But you were in Bamyan. I mean, you were in full agricultural countryside. They took to your authority without protesting against it. You were
accepted as an authority figure as a female governor.
HABIBA SARABI, FORMER GOVERNOR OF BAMYAN PROVINCE AND FORMER AFGHAN MINISTER FOR WOMEN'S AFFAIRS: Definitely, and also, not only accepted but
also welcomed. And so, I remember that the time when I was appointed as a governor, when I went to Bamyan, and thousands of people were coming to
welcome me. So, this -- it was a point of history in Bamyan and the history of Afghanistan.
AMANPOUR: You know, Meryl, you pointed out that -- you know, I'm going to quote actually because it's important to remember. I mean, so many people
have looked at Afghanistan over the decades as -- actually, as oppressed and secondary citizens.
But you pointed out, introducing the film, that women in Afghanistan received the vote in 1919, well before women in the United States received
the right to vote. The way that this country, this society has been upended is a cautionary tale for the rest of the world. What do you mean by that, a
cautionary tale?
STREEP: Well, I think we imagine in our complacent freedom, rich lives that the world cannot be upended on us. And we are seeing, even in the
United States today, how women's rights can be completely reversed, where rights that we had encoded in law after half a -- for half a century could
be rolled back.
Yes, women in Switzerland got the vote in 1971. Women in France in 1940 something. In Afghanistan, women had the vote in 1919. I mean, it's -- it
is a -- it's a complete upending. And the forces -- this is what really confounds me, is what is it that people imagine can happen for the good?
What did the Taliban imagine is good for this society?
AMANPOUR: Well, what do you think they imagine is good for the society by reversing your roles? I mean, as you say, it is half the society, half the
population, including the wives, sisters, mothers, aunts of the Taliban.
KOOFI: Well, I don't think actually most of the wives and sisters and daughters of Taliban are affected by this. I think they have their
daughters and sisters studying in some prestigious university outside the country. I think it's actually majority of the -- the voiceless women and
people of Afghanistan who are affected by this.
[13:35:00]
I think the Taliban have this phobia of educated women, because the more educated a woman become, the more independent a woman become, it's a threat
for patriarchy, it's a threat for dictators. No educated woman will allow her son to pick up a gun and fight. So, Taliban will eventually lose the
ground.
Their existence is based on the suppression. So, women rights have become a matter of weapon for the Taliban for their power to continue. And that's
why I think our -- you know, our plea to the world is not to trap into that narrative that Taliban have created of Islam because that is not Islam. And
so, I think the Muslim world must really stand now to challenge the Taliban's narrative of Islamic principle.
AMANPOUR: When you were in Doha in 2020, after the U.S. basically said, Donald Trump said we're pulling out, and he did not invite the government
of Afghanistan, he invited the Taliban to come and negotiate. What did you think that you could achieve at these talks?
SARABI: There was a lot of hope for the -- to achieve the for the talks. So, the things could be, I mean, different if the three-part, three side,
which is the government of Afghanistan, the United States and also Taliban could be together, talk about everything.
But the problem was that the agreement was only between the U.S. And Taliban. And the people of Afghanistan, especially the government of
Afghanistan sidelined. So, it was the biggest problem. So, they were thinking that they -- are they have got the victory. They have defeated
U.S. and NATO and all International Community, especially U.S.
So, if things could be different, for example, if three -- they couldn't have the agreement before so we could negotiate in a better way to talk
about this, all the citizen rights and the second chapter of the -- our constitution, which was the rights of women, men, and all the citizen of
Afghanistan. We were very focused on that and it was something for us very, very important that we were -- we could not negotiate about that.
AMANPOUR: I don't know, Meryl, when you saw the immediate aftermath, because President Biden followed the Trump template, essentially. He could
have not done it, but he chose to pull out. And I think that's where his heart was. He made it very clear during his election campaign that this
should be an end. And he basically sort of said that, you know, my job is to protect Americans and not necessarily Afghan women. I remember it was a
pretty shocking soundbite back then.
And I wonder, as an American, what you thought of the long American involvement there and whether you think that it was worthwhile and could
have continued to produce the kinds of results that brought freedoms to these women?
STREEP: I actually think that the involvement -- that's why we spoke at the U.N., I actually think that the involvement of the entire world, but
especially the Muslim world, will have more success in compelling the Taliban, either by leverage, by financial leverage, or by other means to
convince them that this repression of half of the citizenry is not going to move their case forward materially, spiritually, or politically.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And you can watch that full interview online on our website. And now, Louisiana librarian Amanda Jones never imagined her line of work
would make her a target of hate. But that's exactly what happened after Jones publicly spoke out against book bans in July of 2022.
She wrote about the emotional experience in a book called "That Librarian." And here she is with Hari Sreenivasan. A warning, some of the language
you're about to see and hear is offensive.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARI SREENIVASAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Bianna, thanks. Amanda Jones, thanks so much for joining us. We are speaking with you, not just
because you are a librarian in Louisiana, who's written an amazing book called "That Librarian: The Fight Against Book Banning in America," but how
did this all come to be? I mean, you're a middle school -- you're an English teacher, you move into becoming a librarian, not want -- something
a position that people would think of at the center of a culture war?
AMANDA JONES, AUTHOR, "THAT LIBRARIAN": Yes. So, I'm a school librarian and all I did was go and give a speech about intellectual freedom and
standing up against censorship at my local public library as a resident. I just happen to be a school librarian
SREENIVASAN: So, what happened? What made you want to go to that meeting in the first place?
[13:40:00]
JONES: Well, we have had some issues in a neighboring parish in Louisiana, because our parish is not counties. And there is an extremist group that
had been instrumental in getting funding cut for the parish next door to us, their local public library, getting displays banned, women's history
month, Cajun history displays banned, and moving books. And they turned their sights on our parish.
And so, I knew I needed to get there and speak up at the Public Library Board before they got, you know, into our parish library system and started
doing the same thing.
SREENIVASAN: OK. So, you make a speech at a library board, again, not somewhere that I expect fireworks to fly. What happened during that
meeting? What happened after?
JONES: Well, I was one of around 30 people that spoke at the meeting. And pretty much everybody at the meeting was residents of our community, except
for the outside extremist group who spoke against our library. And we all said pretty much the same things, that we have policies and procedures in
place in our library and we loved our library and we thought that was that.
And then four days later, I woke up to a targeted smear campaign against me. Two men were posting awful memes about me and saying, you know,
horrible things online about me.
SREENIVASAN: You know, I'm -- I was hesitant to read some of these comments, but I just want to, for our audience, illustrate the kind of
stuff that you were getting here. One said, continue with your LGBT agenda on our children because we're going to put your fat evil commie pedo ass in
the dirt very soon, bitch. You can't hide we know where you work and live. You have a large target on your back. Click, click. See you soon. When you
saw that what was your reaction
JONES: Oh, I was hysterical. I've been an instigator for 24 years, and I have gotten nothing but praise and high, you know, observations, and I have
a lot of parental communication back and forth with parents. I've never had anything even remotely close to that. I was shocked and I was hysterical.
SREENIVASAN: What did it do to you?
JONES: Well, you know, I -- it was very rough. People were calling me awful names, and these are people that I've grown up with. Because I live
in a very small town in Louisiana and I -- you have a 46-year resident. I've lived here my entire life. And it was people I know that we're joining
in. And so, it's very horrible to see people that you know join and just kind of dog pile on you.
And I spent days crying so hard. My eyes swelled shut. I had to take -- and it's not just online, it's in person. They say awful things to me in
person. I can't go grocery shopping. I'm scared to go outside in my community. It's been two years. They take pictures of me. They still post
awful things about me. They try to get me fired at my job. I've done nothing wrong. It's -- it takes a toll on you. I had to take a medical
leave of absence from work from all the stress, started having panic attacks.
SREENIVASAN: Can you talk about --
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.
GOLODRYGA: All right. We're going to take you back to our breaking news this hour, and that is that Israel had targeted Hezbollah chief Hassan
Nasrallah in a massive blast in the capital of Lebanon in Beirut. I want to go to my colleague, Jomana Karadsheh, who has been following this story for
us.
Jomana, it was your initial reporting and your headlines internally here at CNN that caught our attention over an hour ago now when you were reporting
massive blasts. Tell us now what we know. Six buildings leveled. The casualty numbers are just coming in. What are you seeing and hearing?
KARADSHEH: Well, as you mentioned, Bianna, we've just heard from the ministry of health that at least two people were killed, 76 were injured in
those massive blast that targeted Beirut southern suburbs. As we understand, of course, from the Israeli military, the target of those
strikes was the leader.
They say it was a command center, but what we understand from my colleague, Jeremy Diamond, according to a security official -- a senior Israeli
official that the target was the leader of Hezbollah, Hassan Nasrallah. And that is the big question right now. What if Nasrallah was there, if
Nasrallah survived?
We understand from the senior Israeli official that the Israeli military is working to verify that you would have a post-strike assessment, and that is
still not clear. Nothing official from Hezbollah yet. Nothing from Lebanese -- the Lebanese government.
[13:45:00]
But a senior security official telling my colleague Tamara Qiblawi, when asked about Hassan Nasrallah and his status right now, he says, we wait.
And the whole country right now is on edge as it waits for news of whether the leader of Hezbollah, Hassan Nasrallah, was indeed in that location, in
that densely populated part of Beirut in the southern suburbs, if he survived, if he was injured, all these questions right now, putting this
entire country on edge, a dangerous escalation, Bianna, it doesn't begin to describe the situation right now.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, as we've been seeing things escalate quite quickly, even prior to this targeted assassination of Hassan Nasrallah by the Israelis.
We've seen hundreds of those killed in Lebanon over the past week and a half. Hezbollah launching a ballistic missile that was successfully
thwarted at Israel. Again, everyone really on knife's edge here and as many of our guests have already said, many, many red lines have already been
crossed here. Jomana Karadsheh, thank you so much. Keep us posted on any developments you hear.
Let's go to Israel. And our Nic Robertson is in Tel Aviv and Nic, the United States Responding saying that they, A, were not involved in any way,
shape or form in this targeted assassination of Hassan Nasrallah and that they were given a heads up or notification. The defense minister telling
his counterpart here in the United States, Defense Secretary Austin, as this operation was underway. Any new information that you're hearing now
from the IDF over the course of the last hour since we heard from Rear Admiral Hagari?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: No, what we know is that the defense minister has been sitting in the -- in one of the command
centers with other commanders around him, analyzing what's happening in Beirut, analyzing all the information streams that they have access to try
to figure out precisely what has happened.
And while we're talking about this, I'm reminded of a conversation I had with an official earlier this week about the possibility as. All these
different Hezbollah commanders were being assassinated in the suburbs of Beirut. I asked the sort of obvious question, well, does -- is -- would
Hassan Nasrallah be on that target list? And I was sort of given and the impression that that may or may not be the case. It wasn't clear.
But the impression I took away from the conversation that I was having was, well, what happens if you remove Hassan Nasrallah? Who do you get in his
place? What -- who picks up? Is it somebody more radical?
And remembering that Hassan Nasrallah is not a military commander per se. He has all those military commanders underneath of him. He's more of a sort
of a figurehead, a leader. Absolutely in command, absolutely the top of -- you know, the top person within Hezbollah, no doubt about his authority.
But when he says, I want this done, I want this done, I want this done, it's the commanders, the military commanders underneath of him who realize
that.
So, therefore, the question becomes, what happens if you remove him? It's not going to stop the organization functioning, although, clearly, the
organization is absolutely on the back foot. It's been decimated in many ways, command-and-control, leaders removed, the pager attacks them, the
walkie-talkie attacks, all of that has really put Hezbollah on the back foot.
And this, if it is -- if Hassan Nasrallah is dead, it puts them even further on the back foot. But the question does become, what sort of person
inherits the leadership of Hezbollah? What sort of decisions would they take? Will they become more aggressive in their position towards Israel,
where Nasrallah has been cautious in the past about not escalating, about sort of keeping the movement and the organization of Hezbollah together,
not drawing Israel -- not allowing Israel to draw it into a greater fight, if you will, by not responding to escalations, previous escalations with
their own overwhelming escalation towards Israel staying out of that? Is that the sort of leader that you get in his place?
Look, it is frankly too soon in a way to be discussing this, but these will have been the discussions prior that went into whether or not to target the
leader of Hezbollah. And clearly, a decision was taken to target him on the belief that that was going to further Israel's efforts to move Hezbollah
off the border where they threatened the civilians in the north of Israel and that the assessment was clearly that this is the right course of
action.
[13:50:00]
Now, Israel could be proved wrong in this case. There could be a much wilder card that takes over leading Hezbollah. And that could lead to a
much harder to predict type of escalation and fight. Nevertheless, that is where we are at the moment.
And of course, if Hassan Nasrallah has survived, then what decisions set is he going to take now based on this? How will he respond to an attempt to
take his life? Will it be personal? Will it escalate or will he not?
GOLODRYGA: Yes. Prior to this attempted assassination, we had heard from the IDF chief of staff, Herzi Halevi, earlier this week, say that they are
prepared when that call is made for a potential land invasion into Southern Lebanon there, and we're also hearing and reporting now that Prime Minister
Netanyahu has cut short his trip to the United States and is on his way back to Israel right now upon news of this massive strike, the target being
Hassan Nasrallah himself. Nic Robertson, thank you.
I want to go to Nabih Bulos, who is the Middle East Bureau Chief for the Los Angeles Times. He just visited the site of that explosion in Beirut. He
joins us by phone. Nabih, thank you so much for taking the time to call us. Tell us what you saw there.
NABIH BULOS, MIDDLE EAST BUREAU CHIEF, LOS ANGELES TIMES: Well, I mean, it was just a huge, huge site. Just the attack site was really -- I think it's
about six buildings is what I've heard. But, I mean, we only saw a part of it, to be honest with you. And it was -- I mean, it was like, it was
basically just overturned. I mean, you had no sense that they were building there. It's mostly just dirt had sort of flipped around. It was the ground
itself that turned over upside down.
And on one side of it, you know, you could see almost like a crevice in the ground where a tree had fallen and the sort of front edge of a building had
been torn off. It really -- I mean, kind of scale of destruction is just really hard to describe because it was so much.
And right now, I mean, they're just digging through. We're hearing the initial reports of 76 wounded, but, of course, I mean, I'm sure that's
going to be much, much, much more because, you know, they're still digging through the rubble and they will almost certainly have many people.
But it should be clear, this is a very, very populated area. In fact, right near it, there's a big refugee camp and everyone there was just leaving
(INAUDIBLE). I mean, I saw a big exodus from that refugee camp with people just escaping and taking all their stuff and finding anywhere else to go.
GOLODRYGA: Are there -- were you able to get close to the buildings themselves this targeted site? As we know, six buildings we've reported,
have been leveled by this. How close to the area of destruction were you able to get?
BULOS: We were at the very edge of it. I mean, we were led -- you know, Hezbollah cadres gets in to see the area. And we were let into the very
edge of it where rescue crews were working. And you could see excavators digging in the site, people going through it. Of course, there was still a
fire going on. But as I said, this was the edge of the site and it's quite large.
So, I mean, it was, you know, at least as large as the city block. So, we - - you know, we didn't get it -- we didn't get a full view of the destruction as what it amounts to.
GOLODRYGA: Did you feel the blast yourself?
BULOS: No, but I heard it, certainly. I mean, I was home and I just heard a successive -- you know, like a number of successive booms and they really
shook the apartment. In fact, my cats ran away, of course. And you could hear all the glass shaking in the house. It really was -- it was quite
different from other attacks that we've heard in Beirut. This one seems to have been the big one.
GOLODRYGA: What is the Lebanese media there -- especially in Beirut, what are they reporting at this point? What are you hearing and seeing on their
news broadcasts in the aftermath? Again, this is just an hour and a half ago or so.
BULOS: I mean, right now, most of what's being said is just trying to figure out the damage and who was killed, of course. Now, we've heard
various things about -- you know, about Nasrallah still being alive. We've heard various reports. I've actually yet to see any kind of official
statement from Hezbollah about it myself, but at the same time, we're talking about, yes, it's very confusing right now. Everyone is still trying
to figure out the scale of the destruction.
GOLODRYGA: And what are your biggest concerns as we're waiting to hear whether or not there is confirmation that Nasrallah was killed or whether
he managed to avoid this assassination? A larger picture in the days and weeks to come, what are your biggest concerns as of now?
BULOS: I mean, the fact of the matter is, whether Hezbollah -- I mean, whether Nasrallah is killed or not is somewhat irrelevant to the greater
point. I mean, other general secretaries of the group have been killed in the past, and it hasn't helped, just as that's been the case with other
groups as well.
But we will -- but I expect that it will cause a massive escalation. It seems now that we are very much -- we're just inevitably heading towards
war. And that's something that I would like to have not been able to say, but that's the way it is.
[13:55:00]
GOLODRYGA: By war, you mean an official massive land invasion?
BULOS: I think so. I think that seems to be the prologue of what we're after here. I mean, either a land invasion or an escalation. Hezbollah is
at the point where a land invasion becomes also the appropriate response. We're just seeing a situation where the escalation on both sides simply
have to go up. And it should be said that this is, you know, mostly because of what happened last week with Israel. But now, perhaps, Hezbollah will
have to take the chance to escalate.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And as we noted earlier in this show, we have yet to hear from Iran as well how they factor in to this latest round of escalation. So
much yet to be confirmed. Obviously, we will stay on this story here on CNN. Nabih Bulos, thank you for taking the time to call us, giving us a
view of what you saw there on the ground. Very busy news hour for us here at "Amanpour."
Thank you so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
BULOS: Thank you for having me.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
