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Amanpour
Interview with Outgoing U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken; Interview with U.N. Emergency Relief Coordinator Tom Fletcher; Interview with Palestinian National Initiative President Mustafa Barghouti; Interview with Father Held Hostage in Gaza Sharone Lifschitz. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired January 15, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up. The Israeli government and
Hamas reach a ceasefire agreement. We have the latest on the long-awaited move, the hostage release deal. We speak to Sharone Lifschitz, whose father
was kidnapped by Hamas. And to Mustafa Barghouti, president of the Palestinian National Initiative. Also on the program, my exclusive
conversation with the outgoing U.S. Secretary of State, Antony Blinken. It is his last TV interview before leaving his post. Then the U.N.
humanitarian chief, Tom Fletcher joins the show to talk about the ceasefire news, as well as the toll of Russia's ongoing war in Ukraine.
Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in Washington, D.C. A ceasefire hostage release agreement has been reached by the Israeli
government and Hamas, a senior U.S. official confirms to me. Now, this deal has been a long time coming for hostage families in Israel and for
Palestinians in Gaza who've been under an endless assault for more than a year.
I spoke about this breakthrough in an exclusive interview with U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken. I started by asking him what exactly the
ceasefire means, and we spoke just as it was being announced.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANTONY BLINKEN, OUTGOING U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: First, the firing stops. Hamas, Israel stop firing. Israel pulls back its forces. Hostages begin to
be released. Prisoners come out of Israeli jails and go back, and we surge humanitarian assistance to people who so desperately need it. All of that
happens during a six-week period, but also during that six weeks, we have to negotiate the understandings to get to a permanent ceasefire so that
Israel pulls all of its forces out of Gaza, Hamas doesn't come back in, and there's the necessary governance, security, reconstruction arrangements so
that Gaza can move forward.
AMANPOUR: Is that sorted?
BLINKEN: That's not sorted. We've worked on it intensely for the last six or seven months, intensely but quietly with our partners, with others. I
think there's some basic understandings that we've reached, but the ceasefire itself, hopefully, would concentrate minds and get people to
agree on what's necessary to get that day after a post-conflict plan in place.
AMANPOUR: So, we're speaking as your successor is undergoing confirmation hearings, Senator Marco Rubio. Do you think that the Trump administration
will take your ball and roll with it down the line, or could they say, hey, nice try guys, but we don't care?
BLINKEN: Oh, of course, it will be up to them, but not only up to them, it'll be up to the parties and all the people concerned. I think there's a
strong impetus among all involved not only to have this ceasefire that hopefully we'll achieve in the coming hours or certainly days, but to make
sure that it's permanent.
Israel does not have an incentive to remain bogged down in Gaza. With an insurgency, bleeding it, continuing to put pressure on its economy, on its
reserves. The Palestinian people certainly don't need a continuation of Gaza. Countries throughout the region don't want that.
So, I think there's going to be, assuming a ceasefire is reached, strong, strong pressure from all sides to make sure that it becomes permanent. And
the best way to do that, I think, is through the work that we've done, but it'll be up to the administration to decide whether to try to carry that
forward, whether it has some other way of doing this. The most important thing, though, is get the ceasefire, make it permanent.
AMANPOUR: I don't know whether you agree, but many analysts are saying that actually Trump's arrival has jumpstarted this and has focused people's
mind and at least got this ceasefire to be serious. As you say, it's something that the president planned back in May and et cetera.
There are people like a very prominent Israeli hostage negotiator who says, this is not a great deal, this interim one. It's only about 30 hostages.
Many, many have died in the interim since May, that it could have been done much earlier. And I know you often, USG blames Hamas for its role in
delaying. But I don't know whether you saw what Itamar Ben-Gvir said to the Times of Israel just over the last couple of days. He basically said that,
me and Smotrich have successfully prevented any ceasefire deals for the last year, and we still want to prevent this one.
[13:05:00]
How do you react to that? And are you willing to agree that also Israel has held up what could have been the Biden ceasefire, which could have saved
many lives many, many months ago?
BLINKEN: So, should this have happened months ago? Yes. Could it have happened months ago? Yes. Were there occasions when each side did things
that made it more difficult to get this over the finish line? Yes, including Israel, but predominantly it's been Hamas. And certainly, in the
last few months, Hamas has -- had refused to engage. We finally got it to re-engage.
And in these last weeks, in particular, Hamas has been the party that's held back on finally getting to yes, but we've managed to push to a point
where, as I said, we're on the brink.
Look, I think what the basic dynamic has been this, first, what was so important was that there had to be an agreement that this would proceed in
two phases. That we'd have these six weeks where everyone stops firing, Israel pulls back, hostages come out, prisoners are released, humanitarian
assistance goes in, and final arrangements for an enduring ceasefire are made. For months Hamas wouldn't accept that.
The president went forward, went public, in May, very end of May, early June, with a detailed proposal for that. And then we went around the world,
and everyone came out in support of it, including the U.N. Security Council. And at that point, Hamas was isolated, and it signed on to that
framework. And ever since, as I said, we've been working to implement it, to get the final arrangements.
But there have been two dynamics that have really, I think, held things back, more than anything else. One, Hamas was hoping, hoping, hoping that
the cavalry would come to the rescue, that it would get a wider war with Lebanon and Hezbollah, with Iran. And the actions that we took along with
Israel made it clear that the cavalry was not coming to the rescue. It couldn't count on that.
Second, it hoped that by holding back, pressure would just mount on Israel to give in and to accede to the terms of a ceasefire hostage deal on Hamas'
terms. And there again, that hasn't happened.
So, I think as we look at it, as we've seen it, yes, have there been moments when things have happened on one side or the other that have made
it harder to get it over the line? Yes. But fundamentally, it's been Hamas, but now we're at the point where hopefully Hamas sees that the only way
forward is through the ceasefire.
AMANPOUR: Just finally on this issue, Ben-Gvirand his ilk, they are extremist firebrands that even the U.S. has sanctioned in the past. They
want settlements. They say that they want to stay in Gaza. The infrastructure that the IDF is creating in Gaza points to a permanent stay
there in some parts. Are you sure? Is USG sure that Israel will pull out or that it will stay for, I don't know, months, years afterwards?
BLINKEN: What I can tell you is this, Christiane, first, it's our policy and it's been our policy very clearly, including principles that I laid out
months ago at the very beginning of the conflict in Tokyo, that there can't be a permanent occupation of Gaza, that Israel has to pull out, that the
territory of Gaza shouldn't be changed, and of course, it obviously can't be run by Hamas or used as a base of terrorism.
The ceasefire deal itself requires the Israeli forces to pull back. And then, assuming you get to a permanent ceasefire, to pull out entirely. But
that's what's so critical about this post-conflict plan, they need to come to an agreement on its arrangements, because there has to be something in
place that gives Israelis the confidence that they can pull out permanently and not have Hamas fill back in and not have a repeat of the last, really,
decade.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And we will have much more of this interview on the Israel-Hamas ceasefire on the big picture in that region and on the rest of the Biden
foreign policy legacy with my entire interview with Secretary Blinken on tomorrow's show.
Now, Bianna Golodryga has been following these developments from Tel Aviv, and she's joining me now. Bianna, where are you right now? Are you with
hostage families? And what are they saying?
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR, ONE WORLD AND CNN SENIOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Christiane, I'm in Hostage Square, which has turned into sort of
a tribute location for family members, for Israelis to come gather and celebrate. And I think that's going to be the voice for the hostages over
the last 466 days.
And I have to say, the mood here is a bit subdued. There aren't that many people here tonight. There's a sense in the air, as somebody just text me,
that I think speaks to the overall mood, and that is that it is so tense you can cut it with a knife. What a roller coaster this has been.
[13:10:00]
And I think not only does it speak to the fact that we've been close to a deal before and never got over the finish line. But now, we are here and
these families are still not confident, I would say, that they will be seeing their loved ones. Anything can happen, I was told, over the course
of the next several days, which is why several of these families, especially those -- in that initial first tranche, that phase that will be
released, the 33, are very hesitant to speak out at this moment because they don't want to do anything to jeopardize what they know is a very
fragile deal.
I spoke with a mother of one of the female IDF soldiers who just said that, you know, we've been here before, hoping for the best, but they don't want
to do anything that could jeopardize a reunion with their children.
And I think there's also some, yes, anticipation, optimism, excitement about these hostages coming home. But I think now that if we are really
talking about just a matter of days, that there is a bit of nervousness and apprehension as to what will these hostages be coming home looking like,
feeling like, what will their mental health be, physically.
We remember last year after just 50 days in captivity how weak, how dehydrated, how mentally and physically exhausted the hostages were that
were released then. One can only imagine the trauma that they've endured now 466 days later.
And what I've heard from others is just, this is the day that has taken way too long to come. It's been 15 months, as a number of families have told me
every day has felt like October 7th for them. And yes, they blame Hamas and the onus has always been on Hamas to release these hostages.
But many over the course of the last several months, Christiane, I know you've spoken with many of the family members as well, feel that their
government also abandoned them in a sense and not agreeing to earlier deals, deals very similar to the deal agreed to now months ago, where there
was a real public schism, you'll recall, between Prime Minister Netanyahu and the far-right elements of his government and the defense establishment,
the former Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, many view his public stance in speaking out against Netanyahu's position not to agree to a deal as to one
of the reasons why he was ultimately fired. The defense establishment at the time said that the situation allowed for a ceasefire and hostage deal,
that was in July.
And, Christiane, you remember what happened in August when you saw six Israeli hostages killed by Hamas, one of them Hersh Goldberg-Polin, an
American citizen, yet another dark, dark day here in Israel.
And so, yes, there's anticipation and excitement, but I think, A, they'll believe it when they see it, and, B, there is just a bit of apprehension
and sadness that it's taken this long to get here. And that's only phase one. Remember, there are 94 hostages.
AMANPOUR: Yes, it's only phase one -- right, and there are only a few of them, relatively speaking. And I wonder whether you know who is coming out.
Do the families -- have they been told? Is there a list of names about who's coming out? And added to that, you were talking about the
obstructionists. We've talked about Hamas, but also about the extreme right-wing firebrands, like Ben-Gvir, who's still saying he wants to topple
the government over this. He has successfully prevented Israel over the last year from going into a hostage and ceasefire deal that could have
saved the lives you've just been talking about. What are people saying about that?
GOLODRYGA: Well, as of the last 48 hours, we've seen members of the opposition, Yair Lapid, former prime minister, coming to Bibi Netanyahu --
Prime Minister Netanyahu's rescue as a lifeline, saying, did you not use the threats coming from the far-right members of your government, Itamar
Ben-Gvir, Bezalel Smotrich and their threats to leave your government? Because we will step in if that is your number one concern. That is a
temporary band aid, of course, and there -- it doesn't appear to be any indication at this point that Smoltrich and Ben-Gvir would ultimately
leave, at least, now.
But you're right, there has been a lot of internal frustration as to why this government hasn't been able to agree to a deal sooner that would have
seen more hostages come home. This list, from what we know, the 33 names on the first phase of this list and deal are quite similar to the list that
Israel had put forward over the summer.
What is not known right now is how many of those hostages are alive or will be coming home sadly in body bags. Who is expected to be released in this
first phase are women, are children. There are two children, the Bibas children, Kfir and his brother Ariel. No indication as to whether or not
these children are alive right now. And then, men over the age of 50 and those who are seriously ill and wounded.
[13:15:00]
AMANPOUR: Bianna, thank you. And it's an extraordinarily important, if limited, development for all those who are suffering so deeply.
And we're going to turn now to what this means for the civilians inside Gaza. If the ceasefire holds, it will, according to Secretary Blinken and
the parameters of this deal, provide an immediate opportunity for a surge of much needed aid into Gaza.
So, joining me to talk about this is the U.N. humanitarian relief chief, Tom Fletcher, and you are joining me from Kyiv. But let's first talk about
the disaster in Gaza and your immediate reaction, because it'll come under your auspices to get help to the people who need it in Gaza.
TOM FLETCHER, U.N. EMERGENCY RELIEF COORDINATOR: Well, obviously, I don't want to get ahead of the official announcements around the ceasefire deal
and we'll be watching those with avid interest as, of course, will Palestinians and Israelis, and I'm sure the U.N. secretary general will be
out swiftly with his reaction if a deal is announced.
But you're right. You know, my job and the job of my colleagues is to be ready for this moment, and we've been preparing for months. We know that
this could open up a real opportunity to get lifesaving support in. It's desperately, desperately needed, as we've discussed before the situation in
Gaza, in the Palestinian territory is dire at the moment.
If a deal comes, it will bring huge respite to people there, as it will bring respite, of course, to the families of the hostages and the hostages
themselves. So, we're waiting. We're hoping for good news and we'll be ready. We'll be ready to scale up to get those trucks moving through.
But let me also stress. It will be very, very tough. A ceasefire deal doesn't suddenly make this an easy situation in which to deliver aid. The
security situation remains very, very tough. We're barely able to get a fraction of the aid through that we need to at the moment, and that won't
suddenly change. So, we'll have to work in a very agile, creative way, but we'll also work with ambition because that's what the people so badly need.
AMANPOUR: And, Tom Fletcher, you've talked about the difficulties in terms of actual logistics. We know that the north, for instance, has been
besieged. People literally are cut off by the Israeli forces there. We know also that there has been an amass of looting by armed gangs. I mean,
there's no policing there in Gaza.
We've heard, and I'd like you to confirm if you know it, that certain entities are putting a huge premium even on food and humanitarian aid that
can get through to make it unaffordable for the people in Gaza right now.
Can you tell us about how you envision getting through those challenges? And actually, whether UNRWA, your humanitarian organization, can work given
it's being sanctioned by Israel and may even have its funds pulled by the U.S.? You never know.
FLETCHER: Well, people on the ground are desperate, which is why we have to try so hard to get that aid in. And there are massive security
challenges there. Often the volunteers who accompany our convoys are targeted by Israeli troops. But also, as you say, we do face the threat of
armed Palestinian gangs who are looting those trucks at a significant scale.
Now, we keep working. We try to stay and deliver no matter the odds, but it has become incredibly difficult in recent weeks and months. The ceasefire,
if it comes, and let's hope it does, does change that dynamic, but it still leaves us with a horrendously difficult security situation. And we'll have
to work in a very flexible way to try to get the aid through despite that.
Now, as you say, the additional constraint we face is the impending Knesset legislation, Israeli legislation on the future of UNRWA. And we've been
very clear throughout that there is no plan B here. We rely completely on UNRWA, particularly for delivery of education and health services. Other
agencies can scale up and deliver as much as they can to save lives, but for that crucial, crucial work in the education, health sector and beyond,
we really rely on our partners at UNRWA.
AMANPOUR: And just my last question on Gaza before asking you about what you're discovering in Ukraine on the humanitarian front, what are the main
needs? We -- obviously food. What about disease? What about, you know, medical conditions?
We know that part of the Israeli IDF strategy has been to essentially destroy much, if not most of the hospitals. They claim they are Hamas
hideouts, but they are the only places to treat people. And as you say, that sort of skin disease is all of that. I don't know vaccinations. What
do you think are the most important humanitarian needs in Gaza right now?
[13:20:00]
FLETCHER: Well, I'm afraid to say it's everything. Of course, we've got to get masses of food in. We've got to get medical supplies in. As you say,
hospitals have pretty much all been leveled. So, medical supplies are desperately, desperately needed. We need to get shelter in. You know, it's
the full suite of the humanitarian assistance that we have available. We need to get cash into people's pockets so that they can actually buy those
essential provisions too.
You know, we've been getting in as much as we can, and we're able to tell you how bleak that picture is. I think, as the world, I hope, now gets a
chance to get in, we'll really get a sense of how dire the situation is, and I hope that will focus people's minds on the support, on the finance
that we'll have to raise to help respond to those immediate needs, but also to then start to rebuild the crucial civilian infrastructure in Gaza,
without which no deal, no ceasefire, will really be sustainable.
AMANPOUR: And let's switch to where you are right now, Ukraine. You're in Kyiv, there have been massive Russian attacks, a big Ukrainian
counterattack inside Russia. What is the -- what have you discovered since you've been there on this trip, in terms of humanitarian needs in Ukraine?
FLETCHER: Well, I experienced those significant Russian attacks even this morning as we were moving between meetings. And I went out to the
frontlines in Eastern Ukraine, Luhansk, Donetsk. I was in Kharkiv yesterday. You know, I've been out seeing the local governors, but more
importantly, meeting the people we're here to serve, asking them what they need.
I've met a lot of the evacuees from the war zone who are looking for shelter, they're looking for food. They often need essential support in
finding the basic documents that have been destroyed as they've had to leave so quickly and their homes have been flattened. So, things are
desperate for them.
I also think there's a massive need for support on clearing unexploded munitions. This is often what we find in these conflict zones and we must
scale up there. And so, tomorrow. I'll launch with my friend and colleague, Filippo Grandi, the high commissioner for refugees. We'll launch the 2025
Action Plan for the funding we need, 2.6 billion, to reach millions of Ukrainians with that support. And we'll meet President Zelenskyy to set out
with him what the needs are and how we must respond.
The Ukrainians have coped with these years of war with extraordinary resilience and courage. And we in the International Community mustn't lose
our heart. We mustn't lose our compassion.
AMANPOUR: You know, we also hear that, I don't know, maybe not so much in Kyiv, but maybe, but the further you go out to the frontline, morale is
very, very stretched, as stretched as the military, you know, is. They are, you know, basically lacking in people to send to the frontline, recruits
compared to Russia, who obviously also are suffering great losses as they, you know, make this fight. What, in your trips to the war zone, what did
you pick up in terms of morale?
FLETCHER: So, I talked to a lot, mainly to civilians as well as to the governors in the provinces that are most affected by the war. And yes,
there is a weariness among the population. Of course, there is. This is years of war, years of displacement, destruction. They're in a desperate
situation.
You also hear determination to carry on. You hear optimism, that sense that they will try to rebuild their lives, however disrupted, however desperate
the situation is that they face. You know, I learned a new word, tuluka (ph), a Ukrainian word on this trip, which was shared with me by parents at
an underground school, seven meters underground. And it means that the way that a community will rally together to support each other in times of real
stress, of real anxiety.
And we're seeing that here from the Ukrainian civilians. And I think we need some global tuluka (ph) here as well. We need to respond with the same
level of compassion and solidarity.
AMANPOUR: Well, what could you do right now? I mean, we talked a little bit about what has to happen in the war zone, that's Gaza, which is a much
smaller, you know, albeit besieged and very concentrated and very urban less people, obviously, but hugely, you know, degraded and basically bombed
to rubble. What lessons, if there are any, I don't know, do you at the U.N. transfer from a Gaza war zone to a Ukraine war zone in terms of trying to
bring humanitarian assistance?
FLETCHER: Well, we have to keep on trying to get the aid through. And of course, the intensity of the killing of civilians has been much greater in
Gaza than it has been for Ukrainian civilians, but this war has lasted much longer.
[13:25:00]
And you experience it here in Kyiv and in other cities I've been to, even the constant presence of the drones, the presence of the sirens that need
to be in and out of the bunkers as we've been over this week. You know, this is a really hard war to be living through for civilians.
Now, there are parallels in both cases. There'll be a need to clear munitions. There are parallels around the need to get schools open, to get
health facilities up and running. But the real comparison here, the real thread that joins these conflicts is that we're in a moment when the world
seems distracted, when it seems to be turning its face away from these crises, that it's become somehow too distracted, that it's somehow got too
difficult to respond.
And we, as the U.N., but as the humanitarian movement are saying, we must not look away. We must not look away from Gaza. We must not look away from
Sudan. We must not look away from the situation here in Ukraine. We face a moment where our humanitarian operations are underfunded, we're
overstretched, and we're literally under attack in places like Gaza and as I've been here in Ukraine. It's a tough time to do humanitarian work, but
we're determined to stay and we will stay and deliver.
AMANPOUR: And just because it's such a human story, it's winter in Gaza. We're hearing that the tents that they were distributed last year have
become tattered, that they don't have enough clothes for this winter in Ukraine where you are. And in Kyiv, there's another mass attack on the
energy infrastructure. So, that means heat and hot water and all the other things that they need. What is the state? Can Ukraine get through another
winter, you know, warm.
FLETCHER: Well, it was pretty desperate there out in the east and I experienced that. You know, the strikes on power facilities do take their
toll and they take a toll on the civilian population primarily. So, people are struggling, but that's why we focus so much support on getting them to
shelters, getting them somewhere warm, getting hot food into their stomachs and helping them think about how they relocate, where they can rebuild
their lives with the support that we can give them.
It's desperate. It's really desperate. And these winters are very, very hard. But there is resilience there. There is courage. You know, behind all
these stories, and their desperately sad stories of tragedy and despair, you know, I always find hope and optimism and a sense of dignity from those
who are escaping these wars, this desire to rebuild their lives.
They want what we all want. They want security, justice, opportunity. They want to get their kids to school. They want to live a more normal life. And
they're desperate for the guns to fall silent. And we have got to be here with them. We've got to show them that solidarity. We need that refresh of
the way that the world deals with those in the direst of needs.
AMANPOUR: Tom Fletcher, U.N. humanitarian chief, thank you for joining us. And back to the Israel-Gaza ceasefire. As we know, it has not been formally
announced by the parties themselves, even though the U.S. administration, senior officials have announced it. And just a note from the office of the
Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, in the last few minutes, that there are several unresolved points remaining. But they expect them to be
settled tonight. So, let's just lay that out there, given how many times in the past this hope has been torpedoed.
Let's also say that Donald Trump has been posting that this, as he called it, epic ceasefire would not have happened without his election. And it is
considered a fact that him and his incoming administration have jump started and brought at least this limited, not epic, limited ceasefire into
possible operation at this time.
So, let's begin and bring in politician Mustafa Barghouti. He is president of the Palestinian National Initiative Party, and he is joining me from
Ramallah in the occupied West Bank. Mustafa Barghouti, welcome back to the program.
From your perspective as a Palestinian politician, A, do you think this is going to happen? I know you're in the West Bank and not in Doha or Tel Aviv
or Gaza. Do you think this is going to happen?
MUSTAFA BARGHOUTI, PRESIDENT, PALESTINIAN NATIONAL INITIATIVE: Yes, I do. I do. I think we're closer to a deal than any time before for several
factors. I do not undermine -- underestimate, sorry, the possibility that Netanyahu could torpedo the agreement as he did four times before. That's
something we have to be very careful about. But this time he knows very well that if he wants to stop this deal, he will be confronting also Trump
and the whole world and all the mediators and everybody that has put hope in achieving the ceasefire.
[13:30:00]
I think the sad thing -- I mean, I'm almost sure we will have a deal, but the sad thing is that we could have had this deal back on the 3rd of July
last year. And we could have saved at least 10,000 lives of Palestinians who were killed during this period of time.
As a matter of fact, I hold Netanyahu personally responsible for not allowing this to happen. And because of that, not only 10,000 Palestinians
were killed, but also many Israelis, especially some Israeli prisoners who were killed because of Israeli bombardment.
AMANPOUR: And obviously, you know that Hamas has also played a recalcitrant position, very, very slow, foot dragging, and wanted, you
know, as Secretary Blinken told us, expected the cavalry to come to its rescue, and again, lives have been lost on both sides.
Do you -- you've talked about Trump and -- well, let me ask you. What role do you think the arrival of Donald Trump has played? You said what it did
to the Israelis, but what about to Hamas? Have they also had their minds focused because, you know, Trump said all hell will break out if this
doesn't happen?
BARGHOUTI: Well, maybe this had a little effect, but in reality the hell he was promising we already had. Gaza was in hell already, and people were
suffering already. 2 million people were starving. 2 million people were subjected to diseases.
My medical colleagues tell me all the time that each person in Gaza was getting sick three times a month because of lack of clean water, because of
lack of hygiene, because of lack of food, because of the cold weather, and so many other facts. Because of lack of shelters. 90 percent of the houses
in the north of Gaza are destroyed. 80 percent of all houses in Gaza are destroyed. So, people were already in hell.
The change here happened because I think Netanyahu who manipulated Biden and his administration so many times and undermined and destroyed any
potential for agreements, as I said, four times before, this time he knew he had no ability to maneuver anymore because he has no leverage.
In the past, when he obstructed Biden and cheated Biden, maybe, and made Biden, the American president, lie for him, he knew that if he has a
confrontation with Biden, he will have a leverage of the support of Trump. Now, Trump is saying, stop the war. Trump is saying, enough is enough. And
that's why he knows, Netanyahu knows very well that he cannot play games with Trump. He cannot do, well, to Trump what he did to Biden. And he
doesn't have a leverage anymore.
But besides that, there is also a lot of internal pressure in Israel. I think we reached this point, not because Hamas changed their positions
strategically, no. I mean, they had already made so many concessions. They -- we reached this point because Netanyahu understood that he cannot resist
the pressures anymore from inside Israel and from outside Israel.
AMANPOUR: Mustafa Barghouti, as you know, this year plus of this horrible war in response to what Hamas did, the horrible massacres it committed
inside Israel, October 7th, has just been a complete and utter disaster. Do you think Hamas also has been weakened? You say Israel has no leverage, but
what leverage does Hamas still have?
Hezbollah's gone, Iran has been weakened, all -- not gone, I don't mean gone, but they've all been weakened. And Sinwar is dead, and Sinwar's
deputy is dead. Surely there's a lot of pressure on Hamas as well. It also has to decide how, not just this phase, but a second phase is going to go.
What do you expect if this ceasefire works out? Is the second phase in the next six weeks and beyond?
BARGHOUTI: Well, I do hope that the next phase will be successful negotiations about how to transform this temporary ceasefire into an end of
the war, and that's what we need. Enough is enough. So, many lives have been lost. So, many people have suffered.
Just to give you an example, I think according to all statistics, Gaza has lost 10 percent of its population. That means not only the killed people,
but people who were injured and people who were tortured to death. 10 percent is a huge number. If we apply that to the United States of America,
proportionally, you would be talking about 32 million Americans killed or injured since in the last 15 months. That's more than anybody can tolerate.
[13:35:00]
So, the suffering is huge. And I don't have to repeat to you that what we said before many times, that 7th of October was not a beginning, it was a
result. A result of what we should look at, the main problems. What we need now is not just a ceasefire that hopefully will become an end of this war,
but we need to deal with the root causes of the problem, the causes that led to the 7th of October, and in particular, the longest occupation in
modern history.
Israel has been occupying West Bank, Gaza, and Jerusalem for more than 57 years. The longest ethnic cleansing may be in the region, with Israel has
ethnically cleansed 70 percent of the Palestinian population since the 76 years. And now, it is denying people even the right to say that they have
the right to come back home to the places they were displaced from.
So, ethnic cleansing, apartheid, occupation, all these are the root causes of this problem. And that's what the world should be dealing with and what
we should be dealing with because we want to remove the causes of the problem. We want not only to treat, as -- I say that as a medical doctor,
not only to treat the symptoms, but the cause of the disease.
And the starting point is to pressure Israel to end the occupation, to end the system of oppression of another people, for the sake of both
Palestinians and Israelis.
AMANPOUR: And Dr. Barghouti, that's your view of that side, but what about the view of your side? I mean, I know you're not a member of the P.A., but
the P.A. is ossified. It's literally not done much or anything for its people for many years. And I know you agree with that as well.
Part of the second phase of all of this is to have a reformed P.A. to try to become, you know, leadership in Gaza as well. And the last thing in our
interview that Secretary Blinken told me was the United States remains committed to a Palestinian State. So, how do you think your side needs to
get with the picture in order to make this finally happen for your people?
BARGHOUTI: Well, I think this is a very important question, Christiane, and I thank you for that. In reality, the big question here is what will
happen later. And the reform, in this case, should not mean more securitized Palestinian Authority, greater security operation, greater
security apparatus. It should mean democratization of the Palestinian system. It should mean to have what you have in the United States and in
other countries of the world, the right to choose our leaders freely and democratically. And that's why we are calling for the formation of a
unified national leadership for a national consensus government. According to the agreement we concluded together with all other parties and -- which
has not been implemented yet.
The best way of dealing with the situation is to have a unified government that guarantees the unity of West Bank and Gaza and not the separation of
Gaza from the West Bank as some western leaders want to do and as Israel wants to do. A unity between them would guarantee the path to a possibility
of a Palestinian State.
But also, we want this Palestinian State not to be an autocratic system. We want people not to be controlled by security pressure. We want people to
willingfully want to participate in building a future of peace by democratic participation.
Democracy, in my opinion, in our case, is a precondition for a true, just, and lasting peace, because what we need is not another agreement imposed on
Palestinians that will not work as has happened to Oslo Agreement, what we need is something that Palestinian people agree and accept.
And what we want is not different from other people of the world. We want to have prosperity, we want to have peace, we want to have justice. As was
said, we want our children to have proper education. We want our sick people to get proper medical care. But that requires really true reform,
and reform here means democratization and not oppressing people with yet another form of oppression.
AMANPOUR: Right. So, you've put your Palestinian Authority on notice. We'll see if they are up to the task and if there is a chance to actually
push this ahead in the next phase of this ceasefire deal. Mustafa Barghouti, thanks for joining us.
Next, I'm joined by Sharone Lifschitz. Her mother, Yocheved, was one of the first hostages released back in October 23. But, her 83-year-old father,
Oded, remained captive in Gaza. Sharone, you've been with us so many times throughout this terrible journey that you've all been on. And it's good to
have you back today. Tell me what you are feeling just that this initial, you know, limited deal has been announced.
[13:40:00]
SHARONE LIFSCHITZ, FATHER HELD HOSTAGE IN GAZA: Thank you for having me, Christine. It's one way for me to verify maybe something is happening
because we're meeting again. And there's been such a long time where nothing really happened. But in that nothing, so many people died. And this
is a moment where we might soon see some of the families being reunited with their loved ones.
My first instinct is just to do absolutely everything it takes to make sure that this deal doesn't crush, that it doesn't stop before all the hostages
come back. The war ends, there's a ceasefire, both societies can start building themselves up again.
AMANPOUR: Sharone, I see that you're still in London. You haven't got on a plane and gone back. Do you know whether your father is on the list to come
out? We understand -- I don't know whether this is accurate, but some have said the deal includes men over the age of 50, and of course your father is
in his 80s.
LIFSCHITZ: Yes, my father should be on that list. And so, I would be on the plane some moment soon. I have family in London. I have family in
Israel. It seems that there will be three people a week being released. So, it might take some time before, you know, he would come back.
All of us are very apprehensive. We all hope to see our loved ones. We know many of them are no longer alive, and it will be the end of -- for your
journey for three family at the time or there about. And I very much -- I feel really overwhelmed by it, but it's been so long of just trying to get
to this point.
I asked my mom and she just -- you know, she just says, I believe it when I see it. And a little bit, I feel the same. It was when I saw my mom
actually coming out of, you know, wherever she was underground that it became real. And in that moment, you also understand how much they have
changed.
AMANPOUR: Gosh. I mean, I -- you know, you saw how your mother had changed. I don't dare ask you about your father. You still believe that
he's alive, correct?
LIFSCHITZ: You know, I can't ask an old man to stay alive for 467 days in these conditions. I can tell him that if he has stayed alive, it's a
wonderful miracle. I did not believe my mom was alive and she returned to us. I fight for his return.
AMANPOUR: And, Sharone, three per week is almost another torture. I mean, it's drip, drip, drip. It's -- it must be incredibly difficult for families
to have to accept that. You know, our colleague, Bianna, who's in Tel Aviv, said that a lot of the families haven't yet come to Hostage Square. They're
not really talking yet because like you, they're kind of nervous. They don't want to spoil the deal. They don't want to say anything that could
torpedo this. Do you understand how they're feeling? They're not coming out really yet and expressing themselves.
LIFSCHITZ: I think that it's not a good moment to express yourself because, in effect, nobody is hugging their loved ones yet. Nobody knows,
you know, the fate of their loved one for sure. There is so much agony coming our way, as well as joy. And we have to hold ourself, embrace
ourself, for -- you know, for that.
And I have to say that being part of a community in which one in four was either murdered or taken hostage, there's so many people I look forward to
see being hugged by their families, and that will be an amazing, amazing thing for me. And I think for my mom and my father, this -- you know, they
have been part of this community all their life. And we look forward to these people coming back to us.
[13:45:00]
AMANPOUR: You know, you've become -- I'm just going to say it, I'm sure you don't think it, but for us, you've become a sort of an unofficial
spokesperson for hostage families. You've been, you know, willing over and over again to bear your soul and to talk about this horror that you have
been -- you know, like all the other families, enduring.
What has it actually been like for you no matter your strength inside, no matter the family who you have around you and your friends, what has it
been like for these last 15 months?
LIFSCHITZ: It's really impossible to sum it. I think that, you know, you wake up in the morning and you think they are there. They're underground in
Gaza. They're alive and they are there. And, you know, nothing gets you out of bed like that feeling, that they are there, you are here. Their voice
has been shot and your voice is here.
And if I can speak on their behalf, if I can in any way contribute. And you know, I haven't been alone. All the families in their own ways have been
doing so much. You know, people have risen out of the most profound atrocities to speak for their loved ones. And it's -- you know, I -- it's
kind of you to say that. I feel there's been many amazing ambassadors from the families of the hostages doing the work, doing what they can, each in
their own way. To see a mother whose two sons (INAUDIBLE) coming out and speaking is profound for me.
AMANPOUR: I mean, you're absolutely right, the strength and the commitment and the soul of so many of the families has been incredibly notable over
this last 15 months. And so, I want to ask you as well, kind of connected to that, when you hear somebody like Ben-Gvir, this far-right, firebrand
extremist who actually now, after all these months, admits proudly that he and his, you know, colleagues in government, propping up your government,
have actively worked against bringing your family members home for the last 15 months and still want to prevent it, i.e., still want to topple this
government, topple any deal. They have not put your people as a priority.
LIFSCHITZ: You know, I have a friend whose son was murdered by paramilitary in the IRA. And he told me very early on that I don't need to
dish revenge for those people. Life dishes revenge on your behalf. I believe that his place is hell, and hell is secure for this -- you know,
the blood and torture of so many people over so long is -- you know, he claimed it. It's his. He didn't do it alone. We have an enemy in Hamas that
is really horrendous.
Hamas has been horrific to their own people. The fanatics on both sides have far too long been able to set the tone. They have caused so much
suffering in this region. I think all of us that believe in life, time and again, I will say we have to stand up and say fanatics on both sides. We
have to find a way for you not to be in charge. We need better leaders. We don't need him as the head in the government, and we don't need Hamas. We
need people who believe in life.
AMANPOUR: Sharone, I wonder also, you know, you've laid it out absolutely, you know, incredibly well. At what point do you think, though, a just war
of self-defense, after the horror that Hamas committed on Israel and on your family on October 7th, you know, tips into something else? And you
know what, I'm afraid, Sharone, I'm going to let you off answering that question because we're going to Doha now and Qatar's prime minister holding
a news conference about this.
MOHAMMED BIN ABDULRAHMAN AL THANI, QATARI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): -- whose efforts have contributed to push the negotiations
forward to reach this agreement. I would also like to thank our colleagues and our colleagues from the Arab Republic of Egypt and Minister Hassan
Rashad who had contributed and worked hard in partnership with their Qatari brothers to achieve this achievement -- this agreement.
[13:50:00]
The two sides agreement, both sides agreeing we are continuing to go through all the other procedures throughout the night. After that, we will
take measures within the Israeli cabinet. After that, the agreement will go into effect on Sunday, the 19th of January. The date -- exact hour will be
determined later.
As to the details of the agreement, the first phase is 42 days. We'll see a ceasefire and a withdrawal of Israeli troops to the east, far away from
populated areas, to regroup along the borders and exchange of prisoners and hostages according with a mechanism and exchange of the bodies of the dead
ones and the citizens to go back to their homes.
Also facilitating treatment for injured. Also, the first phase will cover entering humanitarian aid all across Gaza and rehabilitation of hospitals
and clinics and bakeries. And allowing civil defense equipment, fuel and other equipment to help the displaced people to go back to their homes. As
soon as Hamas will release 33 hostages, including civilian women, elderly, and some elderly people in return for a number of Palestinian prisoners. As
the details of the second and the third phase, they will be agreed upon during the implementation of the first phase.
The State of Qatar emphasized the importance of both sides to implement all the agreed upon throughout the three stages to avoid bloodshed and to
prepare for achieving comprehensive peace and just Egyptian -- State of Qatar and the Egyptian Republic -- and the Arab Republic of Egypt, the
United States will continue to work with all parties to ensure that the agreed upon phases will be implemented.
We will look forward to other international partners to help with international effort and the United Nations to help with the delivery of
humanitarian aid inside Gaza. The State of Qatar will not shy away from putting all efforts to put all the effort it can to alleviate suffering of
the people of the Gaza Strip.
Throughout the past period, the State of Qatar has not -- has worked hard to help with all whatever we can do to achieve this moment, to reach this
moment. Ever since the negotiation has been succeeded in stopping the fighting in last November and achieving an exchange of prisoners and
hostages, we would still continue to reach an agreement to stop the war and to return hope to our age and with peace and stability can prevail.
For 411 days, meetings have continued with our partners on both sides, and today, we've reached this desired moment. The responsibility now stays with
the -- both sides and with the help of international partners. That is where our efforts in the next phase will focus upon.
I would like to thank all our regional and international partners who helped us in these efforts and all the way until the point we reach an
agreement. I also would like, finally, to thank -- to tell our brothers and our friends in the Gaza Strip that the State of Qatar will always continue
to support the Palestinian people.
His Excellency, the Emir of the country will -- is of utmost importance to him and we continue to follow up all time to ensure the implementation of
this deal. We thank God we've reached this phase. We hope that this will be the last page in the time of the days of war. I hope that all parties will
fulfill their obligations in this agreement and will continue to implement these measures in accordance with the agreement.
State of Qatar will always work together with its partners to make sure that this agreement is implemented fully and durable, calm to go back to
Gaza and we'll never give up Gaza. Thank you. Questions. Yes. The first question from Sky News.
YALDA HAKIM, SKY NEWS: Prime Minister, Yalda Hakim from Sky News. Congratulations. This is a huge moment. You, as you say, have been working
on this deal for many months. And the question is, why now? Why this moment? And was it pressure from the incoming Trump administration that got
it over the line? Thank you.
[13:55:00]
AT THANI: Well, thank you very much for this question. Actually, we've been Raising the question off the right moment for the entire period since
the collapse off the first phase. But we have seen a momentum that started to build in the last month, and we kept pushing for that, working together
very closely with our partners.
And I can say that what we have seen from the U.S. in the past few days, seeing a collaboration transcending, both administration, was a clear
demonstration for the commitment of the U.S. to reach to that deal. And I really would like to thank both the envoys who are here with us in the last
couple of days. And they played a vital role in reaching to this moment.
And of course, for us and Egypt, this is something that we are a stakeholder in that conflict that we have to do it and we have to help and
support. But we have seen the steps that's been taken recently from the U.S. has yielded to this moment.
CNN.
BECKY ANDERSON, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: Thank you very much indeed (INAUDIBLE). Becky Anderson from CNN. Congratulations to you and Steve
Witkoff who is also here in the room. How much confidence do you have that the deal will progress beyond phase one, sir?
AT THANI: Well, we have faith, Becky, that brought us to this moment. And I think that that's the most important part that we are committed. We will
continue to do everything we can, everything possible together with our partners to ensure that this deal is implemented as it's agreed. And this
deal will bring us peace, hopefully, at the end of it.
I believe that it all depends on the parties of the agreement and acting in good faith and that agreement in order to ensure that no collapse happening
to that deal.
ANDERSON: Can I just follow up? What mechanisms are in place to ensure that neither side breaks the ceasefire?
AT THANI: There is a follow up mechanism that Egypt, Qatar, and U.S. are going to handle. It will be placed in Cairo, and this follow up actually
will be a joint team from the three countries that will monitor the implementation of the agreement and everything is being agreed upon and
will be in a place, hopefully, on the day of the execution.
ANDERSON: Thank you.
AT THANI: Reuters.
ANDREW MILLS, REUTERS: Thank you, Prime Minister. Congratulations. Andrew Mills from Reuters. Can you talk a little bit more about this follow up
mechanism? If elements of the agreement put in place tonight are violated, what will happen? Who is it that is going to report and that -- that a
violation has happened? And how will that violation be communicated to the parties, the world, the guarantors of this agreement? Thank you.
AT THANI: Well, this is what I have just mentioned to Becky. There is -- there will be a follow up mechanism that all the parties will be placed in
Egypt and they will follow up the implementation of the agreement. There will be a reporting mechanism for any violation and those violations will
be addressed at a very early stage.
Look, we expect from the parties to adhere to the agreement. We expect the parties to stay committed to what they have committed themselves to and
that agreement, but we know that this kind of agreements are very complex and will have some issues down the line. And we are ready and we are -- we
will stay committed to address those those issues ahead of time.
MILLS: And, Prime Minister, just as a follow up, the last truce that was in place in November 2023 did fall apart on the eighth day. What has
changed in this agreement that will ensure that this has less likely to fall apart than that agreement was?
AT THANI: Well, the agreement on November was to build the momentum in order to lead for a longer-term agreement, which we have today. But
unfortunately, the agreement in November was very transactional. So, it was like a day by day. But this agreement has a clear mechanism for the first
42 days, and there is a clear mechanism to negotiate phase two and three, and all the details of the agreements will be published in the next couple
of days once the details are finalized.
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[14:00:00]
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