Return to Transcripts main page
The Amanpour Hour
Israel Isolated And Divided After Six Months Of War; Interview With Daughter Of Hamas Hostages Yocheved And Oded Lifshitz, Sharon Lifshitz; Interview With Comedian Bassem Youssef; Thirty Years Since Rwanda Genocide Shocked The World; Science And Spiritualism Collide As Eclipse Mania Sweeps U.S.; Interview With "Mamma Mia" Creator Judy Craymer; Jane Goodall At 90. Aired 11a-12p ET
Aired April 06, 2024 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[10:59:47]
LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, JOURNALIST, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": And the reason I find this interesting is because Trump is larger than life that is his brand. He's a big guy. And this shrinks you and so it might be that he wants to be healthier. It might be that he wants to be more attractive on camera for the campaign.
But it also might be that it could hurt him in the end because he just doesn't seem quite as imposing perhaps if he does go on the Ozempic journey which --
(CROSSTALKING)
CHRIS WALLACE, CNN HOST: And I know you were worried because you want him to be as imposing as possible, of course.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Of course. Of course. It's really out of concern for him that maybe it might not be --
(CROSSTALKING)
WALLACE: We should just point out. We have no idea if he is -- what he's doing. Maybe he's --
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Oh, yes. Maybe he's working out.
WALLACE: Maybe he's working out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's such a disciplined guy.
WALLACE: Gang, thank you all for being here and thank you for spending part of your day with us.
These guys are impossible.
We'll see you right back here next week.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. And welcome to THE AMANPOUR HOUR.
Here is where we're headed this week.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Six months after the deadliest attack in its 75-year history is Israel any safer or any closer to bringing its hostages home?
SHARON LIFSHITZ, PARENTS WERE KIDNAPPED BY HAMAS: We never imagined that our loved one will still be there.
AMANPOUR: Then the Arab world's answer to Jon Stewart. Comedian Bassem Youssef on why it's not what you say, but how you say it.
BASSEM YOUSSEF, COMEDIAN: I remember my fans from Egypt will come to the standup comedy show and feel so disappointed.
Oh God, he's going to drive an Uber in six months from now.
AMANPOUR: And from my archive, 30 years since the Rwanda genocide, the stain of the world's inaction after almost a million people were exterminated.
Also this hour eclipse mania grips North America. How to best prepare for Monday's once in a generation event.
And finally thank you for the music. "Mamma Mia" celebrates 25 years since blast off from London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
This weekend marks six months since the single, most deadly attack in Israel's history roiled the region and the world.
On October 7, 2023 hundreds of Hamas fighters poured across the border from Gaza, killing 1,200 Israelis, mostly civilians, and kidnapping 253 men, women, and children. Of those 130 is still missing. 34 of them are presumed dead.
Since Israel responded with its massive war in Gaza, more than 33,000 Palestinians have been killed and more than 70,000 injured.
In a moment, I'll be speaking to Sharon Lifshitz, whose mother was one of the first hostages to be released and whose father is still being held captive.
But first CNN's Jeremy Diamond and Nada Bashir explain this terrible turning point in a decades' long conflict.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Christiane, six months after the October 7th attacks shook Israeli society to its core and sent it on a war footing there is still considerable uncertainty about that war's future as well as the fate of the hostages who were taken captive on that very day.
The Israeli military now claims to have dismantled 20 of Hamas' original 24 battalions in the Gaza strip but the Israeli military's campaign in Gaza is far from over.
A major offensive in Rafah still looms on the surface and Israeli troops do not have full control of the Gaza strip six months later.
While the Israeli military has succeeded in killing the number three Hamas commander in Gaza, they have not killed most of Hamas' senior leaders including Yahya Sinwar, Hamas' leader in Gaza who still remains at large.
And then of course there is the fate of the hostages. Of the 253 people the Israeli government says were taken hostage on October 7th, 130 of those still remain in Gaza. 34 of those have been confirmed dead by the Israeli government.
For the families of those hostages, it has been 183 days of pure agony for them. 183 days of fighting for the return of their loved ones, of trying to pressure every potential government in the world including of course, the Israeli government and Prime Minister Netanyahu, trying to urge the Israeli government to prioritize negotiations, the return of their loved ones over the war in Gaza.
Jeremy Diamond, CNN -- Jerusalem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NADA BASHIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, over the last six months, Gaza has been forced to face the worst of catastrophes. Israel's relentless bombing campaign and ground operations have left much of the Strip destroyed, forcing the majority of Gaza's 2.2 million-strong population into overcrowded shelters in the south, where Israel is threatening to launch a full-scale ground operation.
Israel says its aim is to destroy Hamas, but the death toll has now surpassed a staggering 33,000. Most of them civilians and many of them children.
[11:04:54]
BASHIR: Few hospitals are still able to provide life-saving care for the wounded. Those who do survive must live under dire humanitarian situations with diseases spreading rapidly and limited humanitarian supplies getting into the strip.
But the brutal realities of this war are now being compounded by a worsening hunger crisis. The U.N. says more than a million people are on the brink of total starvation, with experts accusing Israel of intentionally starving the Palestinian people.
Humanitarian workers meanwhile, are facing countless obstacles in getting aid into Gaza. Often at risk to their own lives. On Monday, seven aid workers from World Central Kitchen were tragically killed by an Israeli airstrike.
Now security concerns have forced the organization and other humanitarian groups to suspend their aid missions, raising fears that Gaza could be pushed deeper into famine.
Nada Bashir, CNN -- London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: As we said around 130 hostages are still missing and protests demanding the government do more to return them have rocked the country.
Yocheved Lifshitz and her husband Oded are just two of the Israelis kidnapped on October 7th. Their home burned to the ground. In an unforgettable moment seen around the world, Yocheved bid shalom to Hamas captor when she became one of the first Israelis to be released but six months on, her 83-year-old husband's whereabouts remain unknown.
And I'm joined now by their daughter, Sharon.
Sharon Lifshitz, welcome back to the program.
It is actually extraordinary that we're sitting here talking again and it's six months.
LIFSHITZ: Yes, it's unbelievable it's a failure.
AMANPOUR: what do you mean?
LIFSHITZ: I even -- I don't need to say who has caused this failure. But if 134 people are still held hostage after six months of war, we as a hostage family have not managed to press upon whoever it is to bring them back home and how important it is.
AMANPOUR: Do you think that attempt, that movement by the hostage families is gaining momentum now? do you think -- you know, we see, for instance, families storming the part of the Knesset? We see these protests that have risen much, much more in recent weeks as the ceasefire and hostage release negotiations seem to be stalled.
LIFSHITZ: We have fought so hard for six months. We never imagined that our loved one will still be there. And for us every day, every moment, we are with them there, we are underground. We are in the hospital where they're lying. We are cold with them, we are desperate with them.
AMANPOUR: You know, we know and I said, your mother fortunately, was one of the first to be released and that was in October shortly after she was taken captive. But your 83-year-old father Oded remains hostage.
Have you in these six months heard anything about him.
LIFSHITZ: The hostages that came back later told us that he was seen in Gaza. He was seen in al-Nasser hospital on the first day. And one of the hostages was with him in the same room for a period.
After that we have no knowledge of him so we assume he's still out there. We assume his suffering tremendously because he's very, very frail, he's 83. He's got medical conditions.
AMANPOUR: Was he injured when he was captured.
LIFSHITZ: He was injured. a bullets that came through the door injured him. He was beaten.
AMANPOUR: Beaten?
LIFSHITZ: Yes, and he was lying unconscious outside the house. That's the last my mom saw of him after 63 years of marriage.
AMANPOUR: Your mother has also said that it's not bombs and aircraft and tanks that are going to bring back Oded, your dad and the others. It is a diplomatic solution.
Do you have any hope, A, that you government will create some kind of a solution, and B, are you scared that this horrendous consistent bombing, and we've seen how many -- you know, how many Palestinian civilians have been killed puts your family and others in danger?
LIFSHITZ: I think they're in danger every day. Obviously, they're in danger from the bombing. But we know and we've seen last week the reports about women being raped there. We know that they're treated in a really horrible way, many of them.
And so we are petrified for them every day.
AMANPOUR: In every way?
LIFSHITZ: In every way.
[11:09:42]
AMANPOUR: Do you think that Israel and Israelis are still so traumatized that they're not actually seeing the fact that Palestinians are not being distinguished in Gaza, that they are being bombed and they are being starved and they are being killed. And they're mounting up, you know, it's like 33,000 dead including thousands and thousands of children.
You're wearing your, you know, your hostage. I can just see you're wearing your ribbons and things are you expected and can you, and can the others feel their pain as well? And I wonder what you think that will leave as a backlash.
LIFSHITZ: I think that on the 7th October, the pendulum had swung harder than I ever imagined possible. We in Israel, we are very traumatized, we're deeply traumatized and I think some people do not see the pain of the other side. I can speak for myself that I demand of myself to see the pain of the other side
And I want to believe in our shared humanity, it is very hard to see the pain that others in Gaza are suffering and I hope very much that we both end up with leaders that tell us the truth, that lead us to a sensible existence on both sides. This truth is badly missing. It's missing from Gaza, and it's missing from Israel.
AMANPOUR: We have some beautiful imagery of your father playing the piano and he was a musician and is a musician. And I just wanted to play it and just have you reflect on some of the joy that you experienced as a family.
We're going to listen to a little bit.
That's Oded. He's somewhere in captivity right now.
LIFSHITZ: Yes. I hope they trace him (INAUDIBLE). I hope it will come back to us. He is a remarkable person. He really believed that we should vote -- write letters to the leaders of the world to tell them how to solve the problem of the world.
And I hope that he knows we love him.
AMANPOUR: I'm sure he does.
Sharon Lifshitz, thank you.
LIFSHITZ: You're welcome.
And still ahead. Satirist Bassem Youssef on accountability for the crisis in Gaza, where he has family.
And then later in the hour, I head to London's West End were "Mamma Mia" just turned 25.
Visionary creator director Judy Craymer joins us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Were you surprised that it lasted this long?
JUDY CRAYMER, CREATOR, DIRECTOR, "MAMMA MIA": I mean, no producer sets out with a master plan of 25 years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[11:12:44]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
Now he's been dubbed the Jon Stewart of the Arab world. Bassem Youssef, the Egyptian satirist who was forced into exile after years of mocking his own country's ruling elite.
After rebuilding his life and his public image as an American citizen, the heart surgeon turned comedian has found a new focus for his increasingly dark sense of humor. It's mostly his own story, but he cannot avoid what's happening in Gaza where his wife has family.
I spoke to Bassem here in the London studio this week while he took time out from his stand-up world tour.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: You have family in Gaza, your wife's family, your in-laws are there, right?
YOUSSEF: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And tell me, can you talk to them?
YOUSSEF: No. I mean, I've been touring, so it's been difficult. It's been difficult enough for them to be in touch with my wife and her family.
But the thing is, they have like many families there, like cousins and uncles, and they all left their houses in the Khan Younis and Gaza, in the northern.
And now, they are in one apartment, in one building in Rafah sharing it with 25 other families.
And, you know, at any moment we can hear a bomb drop, but it's OK because Israel will apologize. I'm sure, as they all usually do. I mean, like I was so happy to listen to their sincere apology for killing the people from Central Kitchen.
Oh, my God. Like the pain that they have to go through. I mean, even like one of their spokesman tweeted on Twitter, it's like, see what Hamas made me do.
It's like, it is so interesting. And the thing is, what's really -- for me, what's very interesting is the outrage, the global outcry. It's like, oh, how could you do that, Israel?
But we forget, we forget James Miller, a British filmmaker that was also killed by Israeli snipers. We forget Tom Heartland (ph), which he was like also the British activist who's killed in the head, we forget Shireen Abu Akleh, the American-Palestinian reporter.
It's like every time it's like, oh, Hamas did it. Oh, we did. We're so sorry. There will be absolutely no accountability for what they did in Gaza for the past six months. This is what pains me.
AMANPOUR: Do you not think the tone is changing, given the mounting death toll in Gaza?
YOUSSEF: Slightly, but it is performative -- performative rage. Like, the world really are so enrage about Israeli killing the seven workers. And, you know, we talk about that, but I find that there is more rage about killing seven foreign workers more than the rage about killing 30,000 Palestinians.
[11:19:49] (CROSSTALKING)
AMANPOUR: Well, that's what we -- I mean, look --
YOUSSEF: Remember when you --
(CROSSTALKING)
AMANPOUR: -- you did say that.
YOUSSEF: Remember when 30,000 was too much? Remember when 30,000 Palestinians was too much? You know what happened? You know, tomorrow, if 300,000 Palestinians are killed, nobody will care. Nobody will care. Numbers don't mean anything anymore.
AMANPOUR: Why do you think that is?
YOUSSEF: Because they don't look at Palestinians as equal human beings.
I don't speak about this argument because I can. I do my show which is like my personal story. It's still a very funny show, please come to the show and you will enjoy and it's kind of a break. It's the only way where I can be (INAUDIBLE) to what happened. I cannot deal with that on a daily basis. When I do comedy, I can.
AMANPOUR: So tell me about your show then. How do you do it?
YOUSSEF: My show is my own personal story from a heart surgeon turned comedian, had to be interrogated for his comedy for six hours, had to leave the country because of my --
AMANPOUR: Your own country?
YOUSSEF: Yes. I found myself in a gun rally. I find myself in two blocks away from a bombing. I find myself in the process of trying to be an American citizen.
So it's more of a personal story that anybody can relate to.
(CROSSTALKING)
AMANPOUR: -- starting over in America.
YOUSSEF: It was terrible.
AMANPOUR: Because you went from being number one star --
YOUSSEF: Into a nobody.
AMANPOUR: Ok. Well, yes. Into a nobody.
YOUSSEF: A nobody. I was going to comedy clubs trying to make -- to make it there. And people not laughing and it humiliates you. Humbles you and humiliate you. And it was a journey. And doing stand-up comedy in your second -- well
stand-up comedy in general is difficult. Doing it in your second language is even added -- an added pressure.
And I tell this everywhere. I remember my fans from Egypt who come to the stand-up comedy show and they see me of course, I wasn't good. They were so disappointed, oh God, he's going to drive an Uber in six months from now. He's done.
AMANPOUR: I've always noticed that your struggle is towards bringing people together. That's what I've noticed. And I want to ask you about a project that I read about and I want to know if it's true.
You bought the rights to a book. The book happens to be called "The Muslim and the Jew." It's translated in English. It's written by a German author. And it tells the story of a group of Egyptians and Arabs who lived in Berlin basically and saved hundreds of Jews from the Holocaust.
Tell me about the story and why you want to do this.
YOUSSEF: This is a story that I bought the rights to a year ago, even before October 7th. And after October 7, I actually bought the lifetime rights, not just the option for two years.
And it's called "The Muslim and The Jew" in Germany. It was translated to an English book called "Anna and Dr. Helmy (ph)." And it talks about Dr. Helmy, an Egyptian doctor who lived in Berlin and then Nazi, Germany and informed an under -- a group of underground network with other Arabs and saved 300 Jews from the Holocaust.
And I think it's a great story because the Holocaust is a human story, not just a Jewish story. I mean definitely it was an Israeli story.
And I think this is a way to show that, in the end of the day, we are people and we have so much in common and we should not use human tragedies, we not really should use excuses of different ethnicities in order to inflict the same pain that was done upon us on other people. Especially if those people had nothing to do with that tragedy.
And I want to show that like even before the establishment of Israel, Arabs and Jews in Germany lived a life of harmony and co-habitation (ph). And they were even closer together than the German Christians.
And the Holocaust is a very important part of our contemporary history. And we have a role in it, like saving other people from there and we're being erased.
So as an Arab, I want to actually show our story, our self and put us into the place where we actually have a say and a place in human history.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Bassem Youssef, on tour around the U.K. And coming up on the program, from my archive, 30 years since the Rwanda genocide. My conversation with the general who tried to warn the world.
Then later in the hour, science meets spiritualism as North America gets a front row seat for Monday's total solar eclipse.
[11:23:42]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
Now, history's lessons can go unlearned as we see from the archive, this weekend marks a grim 30-year marker for Rwanda and the world. It's one of the darkest chapters in human history because 30 years ago this weekend, a presidential plane was shot down, plunging Rwanda into hell.
Ethnic tensions between two warring groups, the Hutus and the Tutsis would end in bloody genocide. Nearly a million people were slaughtered in that brutal 100-day rampage as the world stood by.
The West's inaction would become a stain on human history. Despite repeated warnings from those on the ground, as I found speaking to the one person who back then did scream bloody murder.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: 1993. The African nation of Rwanda General Romeo Dallaire was about to take up the most important command of his career, leading U.N. troops charged with keeping the peace.
Dallaire is Canadian. The son of a soldier, and a military man who says that his first love has always been the army.
And when you were first told that you are going to head the mission in Rwanda, how did you feel about that?
GEN. ROMEO DALLAIRE, ARMY: An overwhelming excitement.
[11:29:48]
AMANPOUR: One year later Romeo Dallaire would leave Rwanda, a broken man. His mission, a failure, having watched helplessly as more than 800,000 people perished in the genocide.
We could have actually saved hundreds of thousands. Nobody was interested.
When he arrived in Rwanda, the mission was to monitor a peace agreement between the Hutus and the Tutsis, two warring ethnic groups with a long and bloody rivalry, which was now simmering again.
The agreement which called for Hutus and Tutsis to share power was just a facade. Hutu extremists within the government were stockpiling weapons.
General Dallaire was determined to keep the peace and it was personal for him. He had been raised on vivid stories of heroic Canadian soldiers who brought hope to Europe after the Holocaust. His own father, his role model, had been one of those soldiers. General Dallaire wanted to honor this legacy.
What resources did you think you needed.
DALLAIRE: I had an estimated about 4,500 troops. And I got authority ultimately for 2,600.
AMANPOUR: Just 2,600 troops and none from the United States. Its taste for foreign intervention had soured. A few months earlier in Somalia, two dozen Pakistani peacekeepers had been murdered. U.S. commandos on the hunt for the killers had their Blackhawk helicopter shot down. 18 U.S. soldiers were killed.
Kofi Annan was then head of U.N. peacekeeping operations.
KOFI ANNAN, FORMER UNITED NATIONS SECRETARY GENERAL: The U.S. troops had been killed and dragged through the streets and humiliated.
AMANPOUR: Americans were anxious to extricate themselves from strife in Africa.
ANNAN: And the governments were not prepared to take another risk and go into Rwanda.
AMANPOUR: In January 1994 General Dallaire made a chilling discovery. An informant warned that Hutu government agents were planning for bloodshed, not peace.
DALLAIRE: They were going to conduct an outright slaughter and elimination of the opposition.
AMANPOUR: Did he tell you that he was being ordered to practice prepare, train for this?
DALLAIRE: Absolutely.
AMANPOUR: General Dallaire sent this cable to U.N. headquarters in New York, warning that his informant has been ordered to register all Tutsi see in Kigali. He suspects it is for their extermination.
The informant described a major weapons cache which General Dallaire are intended to raid. "It is our intention to take action within the next 36 hours."
Kofi Annan concerned about the safety of Dallaire's limited U.N. force responded, "We cannot agree to the operation contemplated as it clearly goes beyond the mandate."
When you got this response back what was your reaction?
DALLAIRE: I was -- if a commander has ever been taken by surprise, I certainly was taken by surprise.
AMANPOUR: Did you try to change his mind?
DALLAIRE: Five more faxes of the same nature throughout the rest of January into February. And ultimately I got authority.
AMANPOUR: But it was too late because Hutu extremists were about to begin their brutal extermination of the Tutsis and General Dallaire would face the test, standing up not just to the killers, but also to world leaders who turned their backs as the rivers ran with blood.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Several years later, Kofi Annan and President Clinton did apologize. Three decades later, Rwanda has risen from the ashes, but the brutally swift 1994 genocide still leaves a dark legacy hanging over the violence in the eastern Democratic Republic of Congo where fighting has intensified.
And though Rwanda is stable today, the price has been an iron fist rule and no tolerance for any dissent.
Still to come on the show a last-minute scramble to get the best spot as eclipse mania grips North America. Science meets spirituality, along with some helpful practical advice.
That's when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you get back on the road as the eclipse of course, take them off before you get behind the wheel of the car. Duh, take these things.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[11:34:35]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back.
The countdown is on. Eclipse mania is in high gear across North America where the moon will completely block the sun in 13 U.S. states and parts of Canada and Mexico on Monday.
But despite best laid plans, it could be hit or miss for millions of people if Mother Nature spoils the show.
CNN space correspondent Kristin Fisher explains how science is about to meet spiritualism.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. HAKEEM OLUSEYI, ASTROPHYSICIST: It's the most amazing terrestrial thing I've ever seen. [11:39:49]
KRISTIN FISHER, CNN SPACE CORRESPONDENT: Dr. Hakeem Oluseyi is one of the die-hards, an eclipse hunter and astrophysicist who's hoping to see his sixth total solar eclipse on Monday.
What makes an eclipse so special?
DR. OLUSEYI: Yes.
You don't have to ask that question if you see it, right. You know, It's like bringing the space and the cosmos to your lab. This is when you know hey, I live in a solar system that's in a galaxy. It's surreal.
FISHER: A total solar eclipse happens when the moon moves in between the sun and the earth, aligning so perfectly that it completely blocks the face of the sun.
DR. OLUSEYI: And now the corona, which is a billion times dimmer, becomes visible. It just appears.
FISHER: This is the moment of totality?
DR. OLUSEYI: This is the moment of totality. Totality already this time is a long totality. It's about twice as long as the 2017 total solar eclipse.
FISHER: Oh wow.
DR. OLUSEYI: This is a four-minute totality. That is --
FISHER: Nearly 32 million people in the United States from Texas to Maine live within the path of totality. Millions more will be traveling to get there and roughly 450 couples will be getting married during totality at two mass wedding events, "Elope at the Eclipse" in Arkansas and Ohio.
JENNY HARRIS, GETTING MARRIED DURING THE ECLIPSE: We wanted -- like again, we wanted to do something unique, but we didn't necessarily need to be up front and center and it's something that will bond everyone who does it that day together forever.
FISHER: What is it about an eclipse that makes it kind of romantic?
CARLOTTA COX, GETTING MARRIED DURING THE ECLIPSE: There's like a story about the sun and the moon and they fell in love. And then when they finally kissed that's when the solar eclipse happens.
FISHER: A cosmic kiss. It's similar to what the Navajo people have believed for centuries.
EVELYN BAHE, NAVAJO NATION DEPARTMENT OF DINE EDUCATION: That's a time of, you know, intimate relation between the sun and the moon. This is the time when you don't look at them too, you know, having intimate relations. FISHER: You wanted to give the moon and the sun some privacy.
BAHE: Yes, to give them time for privacy.
FISHER: Looking directly at the eclipse, like President Trump famously did back in 2017, is not safe without protective glasses, but the Navajo people won't even look at it with glasses.
BAHE: During the eclipse we have to get back into our dwelling, close the curtains, make it really quiet.
FISHER: It's a sign of respect, a way of honoring what they view as a sacred alignment between the sun and the moon. And it's something, no matter what you believe, that's been captivating humans for as long as we've been alive.
DR. OLUSEYI: It's not so much what you see, which is amazing, but it's also what you feel.
The first I'm telling you, you feel it when you see this. It is not -- it's not any experience you've ever had.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Everyone's waiting for Monday.
Still to come on this show as the world's great chimpanzee whisperer Jane Goodall turns 90, how a dog called Rusty taught her more than any professor could.
But first, a quarter century onstage makes "Mamma Mia", one of London's longest running box office busting musical.
(MUSIC)
[11:43:05]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. In our "Letter from London" this week, the musical that unleashed an avalanche on London's West End and lit up hundreds of cities around the world.
(MUSIC)
AMANPOUR: Yes, it is still hot. And this weekend, "Mamma Mia" passes that quarter century milestone, making it one of London's longest running musicals of all time.
And a female phenomenon at that on the Greek island-designed stage setting, the show's creator, producer Judy Craymer explained why audiences just can't get enough of Abba.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Judy Craymer, welcome to the program. CRAYMER: Thank you for having me.
AMANPOUR: It is a milestone breakers. It's not just 25 years, because it's broken all box office records and everything you want to measure it by. Were you surprised that it lasted this long?
CRAYMER: Of course. I'm always surprised at "Mamma Mia" and its success. I mean, no producer sets out with a master plan of 25 years.
AMANPOUR: What do you attribute it to?
CRAYMER: I think the magic is not only the music, of course, Abba's music is, you know, amazing. It's euphoric, but it's the story, it's very much the story. The story of a mother and daughter, everything, the characters.
I think people relate to themselves. "Mamma Mia" is very relevant. It tells a story of friendship, hope, second chances, love. I mean, it's got so many foundations and themes and I think that's what sustained it.
(MUSIC):
AMANPOUR: And it's -- from what I read it cost 3 million pounds at the time to put on and its now grossed $4.5 billion worldwide in 25 years. It's a record.
[11:49:53]
AMANPOUR: What about the film? You've got two films, you know, famously you have the great Meryl Streep as the lead character Donna Sheridan, the mother.
CRAYMER: When it came to casting the movie, Phillida Lloyd, the director and myself loved the idea of Meryl Streep. So we kind of that was our dream to get Meryl and it happened that Meryl had seen "Mamma Mia" on Broadway in 2001, soon after dreadful 9/11 and she loved it.
And she'd written a note to the cast of the Broadway company saying how much she loved it and, you know, her dream was to go on stage of (INAUDIBLE) much to the embarrassment of her children, she said.
And so when we approached her about the film, she was like, yes, I'm in. I am Donna Sheridan.
(MUSIC)
AMANPOUR: Did you know that she could sing. She's got a great voice.
CRAYMER: Yes. We knew she could sing, I mean you're never going to ask Meryl Streep to audition as we didn't ask any of the leads.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: And you didn't. CRAYMER: And we didn't. But we had heard and she sings at the end of "Postcards from the Edge" beautifully and we knew she'd always wanted to sing. She'd said so in interviews. We didn't know how well she could sing and that she had to sustain nine songs, I think she had. And yes.
But we didn't audition although there was a moment when Benny went to a rehearsal room in New York to play the piano, to check her keys. And yes.
AMANPOUR: He gave her an A?
CRAYMER: I think he gave her an A. I think he was -- she was -- she was daunting. He was really daunted, but it was an incredible moment.
AMANPOUR: And Cher must have been daunting to try to get her for the second film.
CRAYMER: Yes. We definitely didn't have to audition her. We definitely could hear that voice in our head.
(MUSIC)
AMANPOUR: Some people throughout the years, you know, the critics have been very dismissive about Abba. Oh, it's just pop. It's just happy- clappy.
But actually the lyrics are very, very profound when you actually listen to them, particularly in this kind of setting of the musical as a story.
AMANPOUR: Yes, I think they are. I mean that was the attraction to me and the songs was that they fell into two generations. There were the younger, happier songs and the songs we all danced, "Dancing Queen". But the big emotional songs: "Winner Takes All", "Knowing Me, Knowing You".
And also, I think Bjorn wrote those songs with a constrain of female consciousness. He wrote them for Agnetha and Frida to sing.
AMANPOUR: And they were married to them.
CRAYMER: And they were married to them. Bjorn was married to Agnetha, Benny to Frida and you feel that you're in, you know, the woman's psyche singing those songs. Their songs are incredible.
(MUSIC)
AMANPOUR: Would there be a third film?
CRAYMER: I hope so.
AMANPOUR: Working on it?
CRAYMER: Definitely.
You know, they say no, I say yes. You know, we're all getting older. We've got to get on with it.
AMANPOUR: Well, thank you very much, Judy Craymer. Really an amazing anniversary and a great amount of joy and beauty you bring to the world on this fake Greek island.
CRAYMER: Yes. We're in the mothership.
AMANPOUR: We are. We are.
CRAYMER: Yes. Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And as for Abba itself, it's 50 years of rocking the world.
When we come back revisiting my conversation with the legendary primatologist, Jane Goodall. She turned 90 this week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: All these decades later, how does it make you feel?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[11:53:43]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
And we end this week's show with a milestone birthday. Jane Goodall, the world's foremost expert on chimpanzees, turn 90 this week. Her pioneering research in the 1960s in a male-dominated field, revolutionized primatology after she documented chimps making and using tools in the wild.
Here's the secret of her naturalist approach.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: You are the one who discovered this. When you think about that now all these decades later, how does it make you feel?
JANE GOODALL, PRIMATOLOGIST: Well, and it makes me feel how arrogant science was to maintain that we were the only -- I mean they told me when I went to Cambridge to get a degree -- that only humans have personality. Only humans have minds capable of problem-solving. Only humans have emotions.
How arrogant of us. I'd loved animals all my life. I had an amazing, supportive mother and I had a great teacher when I was a child who taught me absolutely these professors at Cambridge may be very knowledgeable and learned and erudite. But this teacher taught me that when it comes to animal personality, mind and emotion, they're wrong. And that was my dog.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[11:59:49]
AMANPOUR: Her dog called Rusty. Now, she is, of course, an active environmentalist and to celebrate her inspirational legacy, 90 female photographers are collaborating on a project called "The Nature of Hope: 90 prints in honor of Jane Goodall" with 60 percent of all the proceeds going to her institute, The Jane Goodall Institute.
And you can watch my full conversation with Jane along with all those interviews at amanpour.com. And don't forget all of our shows are available as podcast at CNN.com/podcast and on all other major platforms.
I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Thank you for watching and see you again next week.
