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The Amanpour Hour

Interview with Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and Iranian Human Rights Activist Narges Mohammadi; Interview with former "Washington Post" Executive Editor Martin Baron; Horrifying Police Reports Shed Light on Pelicot Case; Archive: Courage and Compassion Amid the Siege of Sarajevo; "Conclave" Captures Drama & Divisions in a Papal Election. Aired 11a-12p ET

Aired December 21, 2024 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:01:07]

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello and welcome to THE AMANPOUR HOUR.

Here's where we're headed this week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NARGES MOHAMMADI, IRANIAN NOBEL PEACE PRIZE LAUREATE: I'm a woman who wants to realize women's rights in Iran. So I think this is exactly where I should be.

AMANPOUR: A worldwide exclusive with Iran's jailed Nobel Peace laureate. Narges Mohammadi dares to speak out while on a short medical furlough for women's equal rights.

Then --

MARTIN BARON, FORMER "WASHINGTON POST" EXECUTIVE EDITOR: The founders of this country wanted us to be a check on power. And there's no one more powerful than the president of the United States.

AMANPOUR: Donald Trump uses his presidential bully pulpit against the media again signaling intent with a string of new lawsuits. I asked former "Washington Post" executive editor Marty Baron about America's constitutional right to free speech.

And --

A verdict in the horrifying mass rape trial that's rocking France. We have the latest on the Gisele Pelicot case and exclusive access to police files.

And from my archive, a hero amid the horrors of war. How a taxi driver brought hope while Sarajevo was under siege.

And finally --

RALPH FIENNES, ACTOR: No sane man would want the papacy.

AMANPOUR: The Oscar-tipped Vatican whodunit, a papal election thriller. I discuss "Conclave" with director Edward Berger.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.

The swift collapse of Bashar Assad's regime in Syria has had reverberations in Iran. It was once a key pillar of influence, and Iran's strategy in that region. And it's shaken Tehran.

The country's Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei, declared any public debate on Iran's weakened position, quote, "a criminal act".

But today we want to bring you a very brave voice that refuses to be silenced when it comes to the issues of democracy and especially equal rights for women in Iran.

She is Narges Mohammadi who last year was awarded the Nobel Peace prize and who has spent much of the past 20 years in Evin Prison. She's accused of spreading propaganda and acting against the country's national security.

Mohammadi has recently been released on a short medical furlough to recover from surgery. And even from the ambulance. She shouted the movements slogan "women, life, freedom".

And she has made the courageous decision to speak out on this program, knowing that she's going back to jail.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Narges Mohammadi, welcome to the program.

MOHAMMADI (through translator): Thank you very much.

AMANPOUR: How are you feeling? You were released from prison for about three weeks in order to recover from an operation. How are you feeling?

MOHAMMADI: When I was leaving prison, since I was leaving behind my inmates and I'd been given release, I was feeling very sad. I had a heavy heart and I thought I was leaving behind a part of me, even though for -- it was just for a few days.

But the moment they let me in the ambulance and I saw the streets, I felt liberated and I felt -- I could see a woman who was crossing the road without a headscarf.

And they recognized me and they greeted me and I started chanting, "woman, life, freedom".

[11:04:53] MOHAMMADI: And I felt that this is not a movement that is going to lose its strength and it's still going strong because our women are very strong.

And I was filled with joy to see our women like that. And I greeted freedom because I realized I was not surrounded by guards and I could leave prison, but it was -- I had a kind of dual feeling about leaving prison.

AMANPOUR: I understand what you're saying, but I'm also -- I mean, I'm just so amazed that you would be leaving prison for only a period of time.

You're jailed for defying the state and yet, you still come out and you shout the slogan "woman, life, freedom".

You're on an international television interview right now that will be shown all over the world and in the United States, and you're still standing up for what you believe in. Are you not afraid of the consequences?

MOHAMMADI: I have been tried for nine times. But you know, I -- they continue to convict me of various crimes. But I think the path that I have chosen will never stop, not even the prison walls and all these convictions can ever stop me.

And I feel that alongside the Iranian people, I am -- I have to go towards democracy and equality. And I hope that we will see victory.

And it may not be an easy path, but I am determined in my belief because of the conditions that exist in my country, Iran.

AMANPOUR: And you specifically, have you been physically abused? Your lawyer said that you've been beaten up, badly beaten.

MOHAMMADI: Yes, on several occasions I was beaten up. In about 2019, from 1:30 to 5:30 in the afternoon when I was in the prison yard, I was beaten up very badly. My whole body was covered in bruises and injuries.

I asked -- I urged them to send doctors in. And there were 24 bruises in -- on my body. And -- as I was beaten up by the guards. But unfortunately, my complaints fell on deaf ears, and I was convicted again. I was sent back to Evin Prison.

AMANPOUR: Narges, you have not seen your twins, your children, since they were nine years old. That was back in 2015. I know you Facetime them because we have the footage when you came out just now and talked to them.

You were able to speak to them for the first time in three years just recently. And your son, you know, called this conversation intense. What was it like for you being able to talk to your children again after three years?

MOHAMMADI: The three-year period for you may not be too long, but for me, the changes I'd seen in Ali and Kiana in these three years, I was amazed. I was actually a bit shocked. I felt that they had really grown up and I felt that -- and I'd lost the long period of being with them. Because when I left Iran, they were eight and a half years old. And I remember I hugged them, Ali and Kiana, and we sang "Morghe Sahar" (ph), which is a revolutionary song, together, and that was ten years ago.

But when -- three years ago, when I was on temporary release for a year, I felt I had -- there was a gap that had appeared in our relationship. And I felt that they probably felt the same. But I could really -- I could see the change in them.

AMANPOUR: Yes. And I've spoken to them. You know, obviously you know that they accepted your Nobel Peace Prize. They read a message from you from jail. And I spoke to them.

This is what Kiana, your daughter, told me in January. We're going to play a little bit of what she said. I hope you can hear it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIANA RAHMANI, DAUGHTER OF NARGES MOHAMMADI (through translator): Obviously, with the little day to day things, I would have really liked my mother to be here, to show me how to put on makeup, teenager things like that.

So, it is hard to live without her, because nothing replaces the presence of your mother.

[11:09:51]

RAHMANI: But I'm still very proud of her, and I'm very happy that she chose to fight for women's rights in Iran, and that she has dedicated her life to this. It is an honor to be her daughter, because I admire her a lot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Narges, and she also said, I hope to see my mother at least once again my life. How do you reckon with those words from your daughter?

MOHAMMADI: On many occasions, when I was in prison, I felt the challenge of motherhood versus being a human rights activist. I had -- I endured many hard times thinking about Ali and Kiana. And now that I listen to what Kiana said, they -- again, I picture them.

There was a time when neither myself nor their father were present in their lives and when they were leaving Iran on their own, and when they lived in France and they were going to school and when they reached puberty and the experiences they had when they needed me as a mother and -- but they didn't have that.

I don't know whether they will forgive me or not. Of course, when I spoke to them, they said, oh, we are proud of you and we support you. But the truth of the matter is, I feel that these children have

bottled up so much and they have endured so much hardship. And maybe words cannot express or make up for this loss.

And I am -- really, I am in two minds, I don't know when they say, we forgive you, whether they will ever forgive me or will they ever, forever have all this hardship in them.

And -- but I hope that one day I will meet them in person. I will be able to explain to them that in Iran, we lived in such predicament that we had no other choice and we had to choose this path in order to achieve freedom and democracy.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And we'll have more of this moving conversation after a break.

And later on in the show, protecting the press from Trump 2.0 and right-wing governments in Europe with former "Washington Post" executive editor Marty Baron.

[11:12:28]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program and to the second part of my exclusive interview with Iran's jailed Nobel Peace laureate, Narges Mohammadi. While recovering from surgery during a three-week furlough from Tehran's Evin Prison, she spoke to me from home about her plans to keep fighting.

And I start this segment by talking to her about what she asked her kids to read at the Nobel Peace Prize ceremony just last year.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: You wrote, in part, "I write this message from behind the high, cold walls of a prison. The Iranian people, with perseverance, will overcome repression and authoritarianism."

Do you think you will be released from prison?

MOHAMMADI: I don't think about that very much. Whether I am inside Evin or outside Evin, my goal is very clear. And until we achieve democracy, we are not going to stop. We want freedom and we want equality, and I know we will achieve that.

And so, whichever side of the wall I am, I will continue my struggle.

AMANPOUR: Narges, what do you think the authorities will do to you after this interview?

MOHAMMADI: I am not at all worried about the consequences of this interview. Because in the past year, especially after being awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, they actually increased the hardship against me in prison. They even took my mobile phone away because they didn't want my statements to leave the prison, but I managed to send them out. And I knew that I would be punished for sending these statements out.

Some of my meetings, even three times, my lawyer wanted to meet me and they denied him this meeting, which is actually illegal because it's my legal right.

When my father passed away, they did not even allow me to telephone my brother who lives in Iran to phone and convey my condolences to him.

In the past few years, I have been tried four times and I have been given prison terms. I have passed through all these stages, all these phases.

[11:19:46]

MOHAMMADI: And whatever punishment they impose on me, it makes no difference because I have my belief. I am standing firm and I am chanting against death penalty, I'm against gender apartheid, against the policies of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

I am a pacifist, I am a woman who is -- who wants to realize women's rights in Iran. So, I think this is exactly where I should be.

AMANPOUR: And Narges, one final question. You're writing a memoir, is that right? What do you want to send to the world in your book?

MOHAMMADI: Look, this is not the memoirs of an individual. I have tried to illustrate the changes and developments that have been taking place in Iranian society and what the Iranian society has witnessed, especially with regards to women. My memoir is an attempt by me to show what has been happening in Iran in the past decades.

The women have been the ones who've been subjected to the most repression in the country. They have resisted, nevertheless, but this resistance was not only to the government, but it's also been a resistance to the age-old traditions that exist in countries, including Iran, countries in the Middle East in general.

And there is -- these women have paid a substantial price for that. It has been a resistance accompanied by hope for a bright future. The women have

been trying to keep the flames of this hope alive, at least in their hearts, even if they've been unable to express it. This is an attempt to show how the sparks of activism for human rights have managed to overcome the suppression and spread their hope in society.

That is what I'm trying to illustrate.

AMANPOUR: Narges Mohammadi, thank you so much. Thank you very much for this interview.

(END VIDEOTAPE) AMANPOUR: And that's humbling bravery and enduring commitment to a peaceful transition to democracy while the regime continues its crackdown. The husband of leading human rights lawyer Nasrin Sotoudeh was arrested last week.

Meanwhile, Iran's draconian new hijab and chastity law was due to come into effect on Friday, but it has now been paused. It would have introduced even harsher punishments for women and girls for exposing their hair, their forearms or lower legs.

President Masoud Pezeshkian called the legislation ambiguous and in need of reform.

Coming up, press freedom at risk in the United States and around the democratic world. Former "Washington Post" executive editor Marty Baron tells us what's in the Trump toolbox and how to protect our constitutional right to free speech.

[11:23:01]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Freedom of the press is under attack worldwide even in the United States where the press is already under legal assault from President- elect Donald Trump. He's suing the "Des Moines Register" newspaper over its coverage of polling, which showed Kamala Harris ahead in Iowa days before the election. He obviously went on to win it handily.

And ABC News has agreed to pay Trump a $15 million settlement over a defamation case he brought against them. And Trump is planning to go after many more.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: And I feel I have to do this. I shouldn't really be the one to do it. It should have been the Justice Department or somebody else.

But I have to do it. It costs a lot of money to do it, but we have to straighten out the press. Our press is very corrupt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Corrupt? This is happening in America, which has constitutional protections for press freedom. Other democracies around the world do not and some of them are coming after the press as well. It's a trend that affects us all and deeply concerns my next guest, former executive editor of the "Washington Post" Marty Baron.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

Welcome to the program, Marty.

MARTIN BARON, FORMER EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, THE WASHINGTON POST: Thank you for having me.

AMANPOUR: So, lay out how you think the next administration can come after us. I mean, it is us in the big sense. What tools can they use?

BARON: Yes. Well, I think -- sure. They have a lot of tools in their toolbox, and I think they will use every single one of them. That's already evident from the measures that they are promising to take.

I think they are salivating for the opportunity to prosecute journalists for leaks of supposed national security information. I think that they've already threatened to revoke the licenses for stations affiliated with the -- with some of the major networks.

They are already, as you mentioned, likely to sue a lot of media outlets for supposed defamation and other supposed offenses. I suspect a lot of the wealthy allies of Donald Trump will underwrite those lawsuits.

[11:29:52]

BARON: I suspect that they will deny information to major media outlets routinely. I suspect that they will threaten advertisers for major media outlets as well.

So, they will do everything to undermine public confidence in the press, to further undermine public confidence in the press and undermine its economic sustainability.

AMANPOUR: And probably to intimidate the press by this relentless pursuit.

Do you think that lands with people? And despite all the tools and mechanisms you've just enumerated, do you think it will be successful?

BARON: Well, certainly there's a large segment of the American public who do not have a confidence in the mainstream press, and I understand that.

There's been a decline in confidence in all institutions in our country, from the presidency to the Congress to banks to major businesses, the medical community, religious institutions -- pretty much everybody. And the press is certainly in there and has suffered a lot.

I think the intent here is, as you say, to intimidate the press. I think that -- but more than that, I think he has suggested that he would like to use the power of government against the press.

And to judge by the nominations that he has said he will make, he will use the power of government against the press.

The cost for defending that lawsuit is enormous as well, and a lot of media institutions simply can't afford that.

AMANPOUR: That's absolutely true. And I wonder whether you think that it's also going to lead to a sort of a mass self-censorship, because presumably, it's going to have a massively chilling effect.

On the other hand, there's this, which is what David Axelrod, former Obama -- you know, major ally and adviser put on X. He said, "Now Trump says he's suing the "Des Moines Register" because their poll understated his support, 60 Minutes because of their editing of Kamala Harris' interview, the Pulitzer Committee for honoring "The New York Times" coverage of Russian election interference."

Then he said, "Welcome to Hungary, folks."

I just want to play what Steve Bannon has said, again, using the sort of Hungary analogy. This is what he said, you know, back to his old sparring with the mainstream media.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE BANNON, HOST, "WAR ROOM": They never in a million years thought we'd be back in power. And they need to learn what populist nationalist power is on the receiving end. I mean, investigations, trials, and then incarceration. And I'm just talking about the media.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Look, we've discussed what their aim is, but this stuff has happened in other European countries. And I'm going to quote, "In Europe, one of the key priorities of neo- authoritarian governments is to restrict press freedom, particularly targeting public and alternative media. This trend began in Eastern European countries and has gradually spread westward.

On the international stage, Trump is a central figure in this movement, serving as both a model and an inspiration."

So, that's a fact. We see it. We're seeing it. What can we do? What can the public media and mainstream media do about this?

BARON: I think we need to do our jobs. We need to deliver for the public. We need to give the public the information it needs and deserves to know. We need to do that unflinchingly. We need to do it every single day. We need to do it without fear and certainly, without favor. So, that's what we can do.

We need to show our value. I mean, look, the founders of this country, James Madison, who was the author -- the principal author of the First Amendment, talked about the need for freely examining public characters and measures.

So, examining means looking behind the curtain and beneath the surface, and that's what we're supposed to do.

We're not stenographers. We're not supposed to be stenographers. The founders of this country wanted us to be a check on power, particularly political power.

And there's no one more powerful than the president of the United States. He's the most powerful person in the world. And we have to fulfill our mission and report on him without fear, certainly honorably, honestly, accurately, and all of that. But certainly, without fear as well.

AMANPOUR: It's really fascinating.

Marty Baron, thank you so much for your really valuable perspective. Thank you.

BARON: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Coming up. Guilty, guilty, guilty -- 51 verdicts against Gisele Pelicot's abusers in the mass rape trial that has stunned France and caught the whole world's attention.

We have a special report on how dozens of men in one town became complicit in this horrifying crime.

[11:34:36]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back.

And now to another remarkably brave woman this hour. Gisele Pelicot, who waived her right to anonymity in order to testify publicly in the mass rape case the whole world was watching. It ended with a resounding verdict. A French jury finding her ex-husband, Dominique Pelicot and all 50 male co-defendants guilty of abusing her.

Over the course of a decade, Gisele Pelicot was systematically raped, having been first drugged into unconsciousness.

[11:39:49]

AMANPOUR: The case has become a watershed moment in France and beyond, and Gisele has become a hero in much of the world.

And here's what she said after the verdict.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GISELE PELICOT, WIFE OF CONVICTED RAPIST DOMINIQUE PELICOT: By making the trial public on September 2nd, I wanted society to be able to understand the issues it would raise. I've never regretted that decision.

I have faith now in our capacity to carve out collectively a future where everyone, women and men, can live in harmony in respect and mutual understanding.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Now, with exclusive access to police records, producer Saskya Vandoorne has the history of how this horrifying crime took place in the shadows online.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SASKYA VANDOORNE, CNN SENIOR PRODUCER: I've come here to retrace the steps of all those men who visited Dominique Pelicot's house in the middle of the night.

This case really has captured the world's attention with so many people asking why. We're going to focus instead on how Pelicot led the men right here.

How he communicated with the men or the tactics he used. What was his playbook?

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: 50 men accused in the mass rape of Gisele Pelico. She was drugged.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Drugged unconscious by her husband.

HOLMES: Husband.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dominique Pelicot.

ANNA COREN, CNN ANCHOR: Dominique Pelicot admitted to recruiting dozens --

KIM BRUNHUBER, CNN ANCHOR: Enlisting other men to join --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- rape his wife.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It sparked outrage across France.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN ANCHOR: -- global concern about violence against women.

VANDOORNE: CNN has gained exclusive access to police reports with thousands of messages that Dominique exchanged with the 48 men who were convicted of aggravated rape alongside him.

He didn't have to search far for his accomplices. They all live within a 30-mile radius of his house in Mazan.

NEDELJKA MACAN, MAZAN RESIDENT: This area was so quiet, a nice area. And now, we don't know if somebody who is in the next shop (ph) is one of these men. It changed everything.

VANDOORNE: From a firefighter to a journalist to a nurse, from 27 years old to 74 years old -- all the men were connected by one Web site -- Coco.

Shut down this summer, Coco's chat rooms were easy to access.

It was not buried in the dark web. As one man accused of raping Gisele Pelicot said.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I got in touch through Coco in the evening when I was by myself. My wife had gone to bed and I was a little bored.

VANDOORNE: But because the so-called dating site was entirely unmoderated and anonymous, Pelicot used the chatrooms to find like- minded men.

Under the pseudonym "Available All Night", Pelicot posted in a chatroom called "Without Her Knowledge". It was there that misogyny and sexual abuse were completely normalized. Pelicot would then move the discussion to Skype.

He traded videos of his wife being raped for intimate images of the men's own partners, according to the police report.

Over time, he built a network of men.

He told the men what drugs to buy and how to use them. This all went undetected for 10 years.

Dominique Pelicot never thought his text messages or his alleged crimes would see the light of day. And they probably wouldn't have if it weren't for the events that took place right here on September 12th when a security guard caught him red-handed filming up the skirts of several women.

He received the maximum sentence of 20 years.

In the wake of Coco's shutdown, more Web sites have gained in popularity in France.

There are some Web sites that could be the new Coco. How does that make you feel?

ANNETTE DUMONT, MAZAN RESIDENT: It could very well happen again tomorrow in another place.

For these Web sites, it's a kind of marvelous thing what happened with Gisele Pelicot. It brings them advertising.

ANNETTE DUMONT, MAZAN RESIDENT (through translator): It could very well happen again tomorrow in another place.

MACAN: We expect that some laws will change, but of course, I'm not sure that it will be enough. So, I don't feel at ease here in the streets.

VANDOORNE: Saskya Vandoorne, CNN -- Mazan, France.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: As we heard earlier, Gisele herself wants to make sure this never happens to any other community in France.

Coming up, from my archive, the taxi driver who put aside ethnic divisions and became a hero to the needy under siege in Sarajevo.

[11:44:45] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back.

Now, as we enter the holiday season, I wanted to look into my archive for a moment of goodwill to all. And I've often found the shiniest examples in the worst of times. For instance, during the long, cruel siege of Sarajevo during the 1990s by Bosnian Serb forces.

[11:49:45]

AMANPOUR: But Sarajevo was a famously mixed city, and when the Muslims came under attack and ethnic cleansing, Bosnian Serb taxi driver Mile Plakalovic became a hero to people for his courage and for his compassion at this horrible time.

So here's my report from the cold, harsh winter of 1993.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: This is the story of a man who's become a war hero without ever firing a shot. Every day, 41-year-old Mile Plakalovic leaves his house and walks through the rubble-strewn streets of Sarajevo to begin a frenzy of activity.

He's a taxi driver who uses his beaten-up car to ferry help all around this city. He delivers bread to some of the poorest people who get no handouts from the U.N.

He's still working even after dark, bringing his delivery service to the hospital. He rushes through the doors of the emergency room to take newspapers to the wounded and to the doctors and nurses who toiled tirelessly day and night.

Everywhere he goes, he spreads a little joy and happiness in a city where both are in short supply.

"I've done a lot of things for this city, and I'm proud of all that I've done," he says. "From the first day of the war back in April, I've worked as hard as I could. From the very beginning, I took the side of the poor and the honest people."

Mile is a Serb, but he refuses to escape the Serb siege of Sarajevo.

"I am disgusted by what's going on," he says. "I hate politics and nationalism. People used to live together for 50 years, and I can't believe their hatred now."

Mile won't give in to those hatreds. Indeed, he's taken a family of eight Muslim refugees into his own two small rooms.

By the light of a bulb hooked up to a car battery, they listened to the latest war dispatches on the radio.

And when Mile the Serb, comes home each night, his Muslim houseguests serve dinner on the floor. They all eat together, sharing whatever food they've managed to scrape up, often even sharing a bowl.

After the meal, the dining room turns back into a bedroom, and all nine of them climb in together. Mila sleeps with the youngest, eight- year-old Artis (ph). They laugh and chat, a new family that has been thrown into each other's arms by circumstance, a new family that defies the notion that Muslims and Serbs can no longer live together in Bosnia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: The forces of nationalism tried to drag people apart by war back then. And today, a dominant political force, populist nationalism is driving people apart from the Americas to Asia to Europe.

History does inform the future, and it's important to pay attention and remember.

When we come back, the new film that's getting simply divine reviews.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a "Conclave". Although it's not a war.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a war. And you have to commit to a side.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: "Conclave" director Edward Berger takes me into his papal drama and the unholy battles for power at the top of the Catholic Church.

[11:53:06]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: And finally, it's been a busy week for the Catholic Church. Not only is it the run up to Christmas when it, along with many Christian denominations, celebrate the birth of Jesus. But this week also marked the birthday of Pope Francis, who turned 88, and who by the way, wrote an end-of-year column on the power of comedy and the solemn duty to have a good laugh.

Which brings me to anything but fun in the Catholic Church, the knives-out struggle to elect a new pope, and the new film "Conclave" that depicts this battle of the cardinals en route to that white smoke moment.

I spoke to the film director Edward Berger, who also made the acclaimed World War I drama "All Quiet on the Western Front.

Here's what he told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: What I found really interesting is the power struggle between reformist cardinals and the very traditionalist cardinals. And that is portrayed, I think, pretty well in this clip, which is Cardinal Lawrence. He is played by Ralph Fiennes, talking to Cardinal Bellini, who is played by Stanley Tucci. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FIENNES: Father Bellini.

STANLEY TUCCI, ACTOR: Aldo.

Am I the last one?

FIENNES: Not quite. How are you?

TUCCI: Oh, well, you know, fairly dreadful.

Have you seen the papers?

Apparently, its already decided. It's to be me.

FIENNES: And I happen to agree with them.

TUCCI: What if I don't want it?

FIENNES: No sane man would want the papacy.

TUCCI: Some of our colleagues seem to want it.

What if I know in my heart that I am not worthy?

FIENNES: You are more worthy than any of us.

TUCCI: I'm not.

FIENNES: Well, then tell your supporters not to vote for you. Pass the chalice.

TUCCI: and let it go to him. I could never live with myself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Ok, so that's interesting. And it's also very today. I mean, Pope Francis has been the reformer, or at least tried to be. And he's had so much pushback from cardinals who are much, much more traditional. Was that something you wanted to focus on?

EDWARD BERGER, DIRECTOR, "CONCLAVE": Definitely.

I mean, we wanted to represent the current politics of the Vatican, but also current world politics. And they're more or less the same, you know? I mean --

AMANPOUR: Explain that.

BERGER: Well, you know, there's traditionalists or populist movements and there is sort of liberals all over the world, you know. And that -- and these parties, we've sort of lost the ability to

listen to each other, you know. And basically everyone's a fundamentalist in their opinion, and they're not really communicating anymore.

[11:59:50]

BERGER: This has to be this way. And the other party says it has to be this way. And they're clashing constantly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And the film "Conclave" is doing very well in awards season so far, with six Golden Globe nominations.

That's all we have time for this week.

But don't forget, you can find all our shows online as podcasts at CNN.com/audio and on all other major platforms.

I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Thank you for watching and I'll see you again next week.