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The Lead with Jake Tapper
Trump Adviser On New Campaign Push: "Think Trump On Steroids"; Trump Slams Harris On Afghanistan Withdrawal; Ex-Adviser McMaster Details Trump's "Outlandish" Policy Ideas; DOJ Seeks To Revive Trump Docs Case, Defends Special Counsel; San Francisco Ramps Up Homelessness Encampment Sweeps. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired August 26, 2024 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: There isn't enough clarification about what is considered reasonable or unreasonable.
[16:00:05]
And they are expecting plenty of lawsuits because of this. A lot of workers I'm sure thrilled about it. But if you're not full devil wears Prada, where's the middle ground?
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Meryl Streep movie?
KEILAR: Yeah, that's right.
SANCHEZ: Not quite as familiar with it.
KEILAR: She was a rough boss, I'll tell you that.
SANCHEZ: I would argue that generally being approached on a weekend is unreasonable, isn't it?
KEILAR: It happens all the time though.
SANCHEZ: For us, but not for another folks, I don't know.
KEILAR: That's true.
SANCHEZ: Just trying to stand up for workers.
Thanks so much for watching.
(MUSIC)
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN HOST: Is this thing on or the campaign is still debating that too?
THE LEAD starts right now.
Will voters actually get to see a Harris-Trump debate before they head to the polls? That is the million dollar question today, as the campaigns battle over the rules with a scheduled face off, which is supposed to happen in just over two weeks. Plus, a big day in court today that Trump allies accused of trying to overturn the 2020 election results Arizona, what we're learning about the trial its set to include former White House chief of staff, Mark Meadows, Rudy Giuliani, and a top GOP lawyer.
And breaking news, new action today, and one of the biggest legal cases Donald Trump was facing and thought he was cleared up.
(MUSIC)
MATTINGLY: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Phil Mattingly, in for Jake Tapper.
We start with our 2024 lead and a sprint for November with, quote, Trump on steroids. That's how one campaign advisor describes the approach they're now taking, with frequent events, visits to battleground states, both of which we've seen just today. As close allies urged the former president to focus on policy over personal attacks.
Today on the third anniversary of the Afghanistan withdrawal, Trump visited Arlington national cemetery to honor the 13 American service members killed in the Abbey Gate bombing after posting this video, putting a political spin on a very somber moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Vice President Kamala bragged that she was the last person in the room. She was a tough one. She was the last person in the room during that disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan decision.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTTINGLY: As for his opponent, Vice President Kamala Harris's off the trail today, but did release a statement calling the 13 heroes and devoted patriots.
And as Trump tries to stem the fire hose of post-Democratic convention enthusiasm for Harris, he's also preparing for the first highly anticipated debate with his new opponent. The day that started out with debate over the debate, of course, and rules about when the microphones would be left on, when they be turned off. We're going dive into all of that in a moment, though it appears Trump is once again bucking his own team's advice.
We start things off with Kristen Holmes, who's in Detroit.
Kristen, I was watching the former president's remarks, is a little bit of stem-winder there at the National Guard Association. I think given what his advisers are looking for in the weeks and months ahead, was today a day to capitalize on that?
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's not really quite clear. You know, you asked question over and over again, did Donald Trump stay on message? It depends what you believe message is. It was a much more somber crowd. He did talk about the third anniversary of the Afghanistan withdrawal, but he used some of his old lines that really didn't have the same impact that they normally do.
Remember, he was currently at the National Guard Convention. It was a much more somber crowd. People were winning awards before he took the same. He tried to essentially insult Tim Walz, at one point saying that his nickname for him was tampon and that kind of fell flat. There weren't quite as many rally moments that Donald Trump usually has.
And it has been clear watching him in these various events leading up to now, these smaller events that he still finding his footing on this idea of whether or not he can stay on message. He likes to feed off of the crowd that was not really possible today and hasn't been at some of these smaller events.
So how he goes about the next couple the weeks. Now as we have been reporting, he is going to ramp up his campaign. One of the interesting events to keep an eye on is actually going to be in Wisconsin later in the week where they're trying out a to form out a town hall format without a media narrator is just going to be Donald Trump speaking for a little bit then taking questions from voters.
So we'll see if that's something that works for the former president. They're still trying to find their footing in this new raise with Kamala Harris at the top of the ticket.
Now, I do want to note one moment that really did get a lot of traction and that was with former Democratic representative of Hawaii, Tulsi Gabbard. She took the stage. He was once a Democratic presidential candidate. She actually was on the debate stage with Kamala Harris ms now helping Donald Trump prepare for his debate should that happen.
And she took to the stage to endorse Donald Trump formally. It wasn't surprising that she did this, but she did get a standing ovation. Remember, she is a U.S. Army Reserves officer. She connected with the crowd and that's the kind of stuff that they're hoping to do with people like Tulsi Gabbard, with people like RFK Jr., you hear Democrats talking about how RFK doesn't have the kind of support that was actually going to bring anybody to the table.
[16:05:06]
Well, Donald Trump's team tends to disagree. They're trying to bring people from all over to support him to publicly endorse him, to try and connect with any kind of voter, even if its one-off that they can ahead of that election that they think is going to be determined by those razor thin margins.
MATTINGLY: Yeah, with two endorsements in two weeks is -- one week actually, nothing to scoff at.
Kristen Holmes as always, thanks so much.
Let's bring in our panel of political experts who are going to tell us exactly what Republicans mean when they say Donald Trump to stay on message. What is on message?
Joking aside, Ramesh, one of the things that we've been trying to figure out is obviously debate, debate prep, debate rules will get to the rules in a second, but in terms of prep, the former president kind of give us some insight into his process earlier, he said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I'm not spending a lot of time on it. I think my whole life I've been preferring for a debate. You have to be real. You know, you can't cram knowledge into your head for 30 years of knowledge in one week. So, you know, there's a little debate prep, but I've always done it more or less the same way and you have to know your subject. And I think I know subject. I think I know it better than anybody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: To be clear, I don't think it's actually a terrible approach. I think people sometimes get too much stuff crammed into their head during the break, but it's that last line that stuck out to me. Does he really know his subject here in terms of he has a new opponent? And there's been a lot of questions about how he would actually address her in a debate setting.
RAMESH PONNURU, EDITOR, NATIONAL REVIEW: Well, I do think its true that he is not prepping to extensively. I think we can take him at his word on that. And I think that, you know, as you were alluding to some candidates do overprepare. I don't think that would really work for him. I don't think it's anything that's likely to happen.
I think though one thing that people might forget is how poorly he debated, not just in 2020, but even earlier this year against Biden. If Biden's debate performance hadn't been so catastrophically bad, Trump's would have looked pretty bad itself. And so I do wonder whether they are maybe walking into a little bit of a trap here with Harris.
MATTINGLY: Yeah, it's been interesting. I mean, part of the reason Tulsi Gabbard in the fold as she's been according to our reporting, helping with some of the debate prep.
Meghan, on the rules -- debate over the rules on the rules of the debate, one of the things I want to remind people of is the muting of the mic and the non-muting of the mic, this is what it looks like when mic is not muted, when the former president is debating. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Donald supported the invasion of Iraq.
TRUMP: Wrong.
CLINTON: That is absolute --
TRUMP: Wrong. CLINTON: -- proved over and over again.
TRUMP: Wrong.
CLINTON: He actually --
Assuming he can't figure out how to get out of it, but what we want to do is to replenish the Social Security trust fund.
TRUMP: Such a nasty woman.
CLINTON: It's just awfully good that someone with the temperament of Donald Trump is not in charge of the law in our country.
TRUMP: Because you'd be in jail.
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The question is, the question --
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: -- radical left.
BIDEN: Would you shut up, man?
TRUMP: Listen, who is on your list, Joe?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: I think my question is, why would the Harris campaign not want his mic to be muted? What's the strategy there?
HAYS: I mean, it just shows how unhinged he is and it shows that he can't control himself. And I think that we learned in 2016 and in 2020, him coming after another candidate in that way, does him no good. And I think with them the margins being so thin as they are, it just turns into these independent voters off.
Nobody wants more chaos. We are in a different spot than we were in 2016. And if you have more of that during a debate, its just going to show how chaotic he is and how unhinged he is and know nobody is going to vote for that.
PONNURU: The interesting thing is Harris, his campaign is making this bet that he cant control himself enough to not to look bad. And the Trump campaign is making the exact same bet. They don't want the mic on for the same reason.
ALEX THOMPSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: But what's ironic about this is having the mics muted was Joe Biden's campaign's idea. Those were the rules that they propose just back in May for that June debate. They were betting actually that, you know, not that having the muted mics would actually make the debate better for Joe Biden.
Instead, now, the Biden campaign, a lot of those people are still there, now they're saying the exact opposite. Now we actually want the mike mics -- unmuted.
(CROSSTALK)
HAYS: I just think that the vice president gets under his skin in a way that Joe Biden didn't and I think that this is all part of the strategy on the campaign, too, right? Like they're getting under his skin with the statement that Fallon put out.
So it's all part of the strategy. Like he's going to respond to the statement that Fallon put out in some way, shape, or form in the next couple of days. Like they are counting on that.
MATTINGLY: Right, and he already undercut his own advisors by saying earlier today when he's asked about this, I don't really care if I had my preference. They would be on which is the opposition of where his campaign was.
Alex, when you talk to folks in either campaign, is a debate actually going to quick cuts through this for a minute and say like, are people actually going to be debating in a couple of weeks?
THOMPSON: Both -- both sides basically are indicating yes is the answer, and actually was just texting with some on the Harris campaign right before I came on and I said, do you have any updates? And they said, no, we basically think this is settled now after -- after Donald Trump's comments, we basically take him like, okay, if you don't care, then let's just do it. So they are both sort of showing cautious optimism that it will happen.
[16:10:03]
But with Donald Trump, you'd never know.
MATTINGLY: Yeah.
HAYS: It'd be a disservice to the American people and the voters to have not have a debate. And so, I don't think that the mics being muted or unmuted should decide whether or not they have a debate or not. Because I think it'd be a complete disservice to the voters and I think that both campaigns know that.
Also, I think Donald Trump -- Harris campaign would refer to him as a coward and sort of goad him in that way, too, if he decided not to show up.
PONNURU: Trump's is putting a lot of emphasis today's on the idea that Harris is not getting asked challenging questions by the press.
MATTINGLY: Right.
PONNURU: So he's got to be the guy to do that.
MATTINGLY: It seems very clear there's political upside for both to have this debate. And frankly, there's a lot of upside for American voters to have this debate. Ramesh, I joked about it from the beginning, at the beginning, but I mean this, genuinely, where you constantly hear Republicans in say, the former president needs to focus on the policy, needs to focus on the issues, needs to stop with the personal attacks are saw it again over the course of this weekend on the Sunday shows, I think Lindsey Graham was one of those who's saying it.
Is that realistic based on the last eight years?
PONNURU: Yeah. So, for eight years, a lot of Republican sages have been telling Trump essentially to be somebody completely different from who he is. And, of course, it doesn't happen and it doesn't work.
If Trump succeeds in this election, it's going to be as Donald Trump and not some sort of Donald Trump/Paul Ryan hybrid.
MATTINGLY: The idea of this -- Trump campaign on steroids, having them out a bunch. She was out a bunch of last week. It's out a bunch of this week as well. They getting back on their front-foot, it seemed like they're on their heels for a little bit.
THOMPSON: Yeah. I mean, actually its funny because both campaigns are now claiming they're about to ramp up and have these huge events like Kamala Harris's campaign is saying the exactly same thing. Even though she was off a little bit the weekend and doesn't start until Wednesday. I think you are going to see though that both campaigns are basic. Both campaigns have had reason to not be as active as usual, Kamala Harris was not a candidate a month ago, so that was a good reason.
And then she also had to pick her VP, assemble her own campaign team, all these extra things Donald Trump was stuck in a courtroom. And then after the debate, his campaign me, the very conscious decision to pull back and not do anything and let sort of, you know, the Joe Biden implosion or Democratic Party civil war take place.
So both campaigns are going to be ramping up and we're going to see a frantic general election for those next eight weeks.
MATTINGLY: Buckle up, Here we go. Guys, thank you very much.
Today, as we noted, marks three years of the bombing at Abbey Gate during the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan. So what has the Biden administration learned since then to prevent future attacks? White House official John Kirby joins me live next.
Plus, a trial date is now set for several Trump allies, including Mark Meadows and Rudy Giuliani accused of trying to subvert the 2020 election, were live in Arizona with new details coming out of a Phoenix courtroom today. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:16:41]
MATTINGLY: As Donald Trump, marked three years since the Abbey Gate attack in Kabul, Afghanistan, that killed 13 U.S. service members. He also lit up his social media feed, calling it the most embarrassing moment in U.S. history.
Now, President Biden, Vice President Harris both issued statements vowing to remember those lives lost and to counter terrorist threats without troops in combat zones.
I want to bring in retired Admiral John Kirby, assistant to the president and White House, national security communications advisor.
Admiral, always good to see you.
I want to start with -- I know you're not going to get into campaign trail stuff and I'm not asking you about the politics of this, but the idea of the visual this morning and the former president being at Arlington National Cemetery for the wreath laying, the current president, current vice president, both put out a paper statements, but I'm just wondering, is that is that enough given what happened three years ago?
JOHN KIRBY, WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL SECURITY COMMUNICATIONS ADVISOR: Neither going to Arlington nor aid individual papers state I mean, is ever going to be enough to repay these families and to try to make sure that they know they're supported and that they're loved and they're respected and admired for what they're going through, and nothings going to assuage their grief. Nothing we can say, nothing we can do know flowers, you can lay, is going to take that pain away.
And that's why the president, the vice president, the first lady, and second gentleman have been working so hard for their entire time in office to make sure that we meet as President Biden said, that sacred obligation to our troops, our veterans and their families through the Pact Act, then through any number of other. I've ever -- joining forces, make sure that our true, particularly those who fought in Afghanistan and those who didn't come home, that their families have that love and that support that they so rightly deserve.
MATTINGLY: You know, Evan, it's been striking to me, listening to the families of many of those that were killed at Abbey Gate and their frustrations with the current president. And I know in talking to advisors throughout the course of the last three years, that has been a painful issue for him personally, but it remains true that he hasn't reached out to them since being at the when the bodies were brought home. There's been a lot of frustration that hasn't said their names publicly.
Does he see this as -- does he understand the kind of the pain the family members have reflected related to him?
KIRBY: I don't think you ever going to find a commander in chief, the United States of America and our middle military, who doesn't bet -- who better understands what grief is like, what mourning is like, what sorrow is like, what frustration is like than Joe Biden. He knows exactly what grief feels like.
Now, it's a different kind of grief. I understand that we're talking about men and women who were lost in a combat role at through a bloody terrorist act, that's different. I get it. But you're not going to find a commander-in-chief who doesn't better understanding and can feel the grief that they're going through and to make sure that they know that they're going to continue to have the support that they deserve.
MATTINGLY: I want to ask you, you know, there have been several reviews of the bombing at Abbey Gate, that is a Pentagon report that insists that a single blast caused the deaths there, but there's also video captured by a marine's GoPro camera that shows large bursts of gunfire. They're not just short versus the Pentagon had noted.
Our colleague Nick Paton Walsh has done a lot of reporting on this and I wanted to play a bit of his exchange with U.S. military personnel who spoke anonymously to CNN.
[16:20:00]
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MILITARY PERSONNEL: It was -- it was multiple. There's no doubt about that. It wasn't onesies and twosies. It was a mass volume of gunfire.
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Down towards the abbey gate sniper tower from roughly an area not too far away from where the blast had gone off. That's where you heard the shooting emanate from.
MILITARY PERSONNEL: It would have been around that area, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: Is there any concern inside the White House that the reviews haven't accurately captured what actually happened on that day.
RIPLEY: Well, we know that the Pentagon did an exhaustive review after abbey-gate and then went back and did more and interviews because other information from veterans, from folks that were there made public some concerns, particularly about whether or not they had a vision because you all on the bomber and were denied a chance to shoot at them, for instance. And depending on -- they went back and interviewed additional veterans that they hadn't talked to him for the first investigation, and still, they have not been able to corroborate this idea that there was gunfire against Afghan civilians as was portrayed in the CNN reporting.
So the Pentagon's looked at this pretty exhaustively. And we know and they've said so, Phil, that, you know, if additional information comes to light in weeks and months ahead, that that would compel them to take another look and then they'd be open to doing that.
MATTINGLY: Admiral, before I let you go, you received blowback last year for comment that you made after one of the administration's reviews came out.
RIPLEY: Yeah.
MATTINGLY: I want to give you a chance to respond but first this is what it was. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RIPLEY: Proud of the fact that we got more than 124,000 people safely out of Afghanistan, you bet. Proud of the fact that American troops were able to seize control of a defunct airport and get it operational in 48 hours, you bet. Proud of the fact that we now have about 100,000 Afghans, our former allies and partners living in this country and working towards citizenship, you bet.
Does that mean that everything went perfect in that evacuation? Of course not.
For all this talk of chaos, I just didn't see it. Not from my perch.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: It was that last line that drew some criticism, Capitol Hill from Republicans, but also from those others who were involved in that. I don't ask about the impassion point you were making before that last time, but on that last line, do you wish you had kind of framed differently?
RIPLEY: Look, I think the lines is being taking a little bit out of context and look, I'd be the first one to admit that I could always be more contextual and answering questions. I don't regret saying.
Look, I had said many times and I did too briefings a day during the withdrawal at the Pentagon and I was nothing but honest and forthcoming about that the things that didn't go well in that withdrawal, and of course, there was chaos, of course, there was confusion, there was blood, there was violence at different times during that evacuation.
And you can find me saying that on the record and numerous times during the withdrawal and afterward. What I was referring to was the question was asked of me and that's missing in this sound bite. The question was asking me just a blanket sort of bumper sticker adjectives slapped on the withdrawal.
I hear it all the time. Chaotic and I don't apologize for the fact that from where I was sitting at the Pentagon and watching how hard our troops and our State Department civilians and our intelligence community was doing to get that airport up and running I get it functional and to get more than 120 folks out, you they created order out of disorder, Phil. They created the opposite of chaos on that field to try to get those folks out.
Now, yes, of course, outside the field, there was -- there was lots of confusion and chaos and violence, I recognize that. And you can find me saying that but in any number of interviews and press conferences. But I make no apologies and slapping back to criticism that everything
about the withdrawal was faulty in everything was rocking and that does a disservice to the men and women who so bravely and courageously tried to get so many people out and did so successfully.
At one point, Phil, during the withdrawal, there was a C17 team full of people taken off about every hour. In fact, less than every hour. At one point during that withdrawal. That's not chaos to me.
So I understand that criticism I'm coming under there. I think you have to look at the question as well, not just my answer yet. Could I have been more contextual? Probably I freely admit that there are times when I'm not as contextual as possible.
But I make no apologies and no bones and I don't regret saying that because it deeply offends me as a veteran myself that will just slapping a bumper sticker on the whole withdrawal and I think that does a disservice to all the brave men and women, civilian and military life who pulled that withdrawal off.
MATTINGLY: Yeah, unquestionably, a heroic effort on ground during those couple of weeks. And I should note, Admiral, you've never avoided any question that I've asked to over the years, even those that I'm sure you didn't want me to ask. I've always appreciated that as well.
[16:25:01]
Admiral John Kirby, your time, always appreciate, sir. Thank you.
KIRBY: Thanks, Phil.
MATTINGLY: A new warning today from someone who served in the Trump White House about what could happen if the former president is reelected. I'll discuss with another senior officials served directly with Trump, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTINGLY: We're back with our 2024 lead. Fresh off a week for some Republicans and former Trump officials expressed outward support for Vice President Kamala Harris, a new, at times scathing insight into former President Trump's foreign policy approach by his former national security adviser, H.R. McMaster.
In his new book "At War With Ourselves", he writes, Trump, quote, administered long overdue correctives to a number of unwise policies. But McMaster also noted Trump suggested outlandish ideas like bombing drug cartels in Mexico or taking out the entire North Korean army.
McMaster also said this today:
[16:30:02]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) LT. GEN. H.R. MCMASTER (RET.), FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: In writing the story, I'm hoping to, if he's reelected, to inoculate him a little bit so he's not that easy to manipulate, you know, to appeal to maybe some of his insecurities and some of his predilections.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: Mark Esper, former secretary of defense under President Trump, joins us now, very similar through line, I think in your book, Mr. Secretary.
But before I get to that, I do want to ask your reaction to what we just heard from Admiral John Kirby of the White House about his assessment of the administration's Afghanistan withdrawal.
MARK ESPER, FORMER TRUMP DEFENSE SECRETARY: Sure. Look, John does a good job, and he's trying to put the best spin on it, but it was an abysmal withdrawal, cost the lives of 13 brave service members and it affected our national -- international standing in many ways. It will be remembered throughout American history, much like the American withdrawal from Saigon in 1975. If you remember, American helicopters leaving the top of the embassy or the failed Iran rescue mission in 1980.
It was just a terrible, abysmal and it certainly marked a major turning point for the Biden administration in its first 6, 7, 8 months. And so, there's no explaining it away. And it was hammered home even further when General Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and General Frank McKenzie, the Central Command commander at the time, testified before Congress a few months ago, explaining their recommendations that we not withdraw from Afghanistan, or at least the way they did it at the time. So, it's a sad chapter.
MATTINGLY: Yeah, a powerful congressional hearing where those two former general spoke. I do want to ask turning back to that book from H.R. McMaster who said Trumps advisers would flatter the president saying stuff like your instincts are always right.
The question that I have both in reading your book and reading McMasters book, do you look out into the future? And see people around the former president who in a second term would be able to tell him the truth, not engaged into what McMaster called competitive sycophancy?
ESPER: Yeah, I like that term that H.R. wrote. I think it's a very, very good term. Look, there are people out there who are certainly competent thing is Trump has learned from his first time in office, he's going to only choose people who are loyalists and who will tell him what he wants to hear. And this is why, in many ways, H.R.'s experience in year one of the administration is very different from my experience in years three and four.
Trump learned over time and brought in additional people. I talk about bringing in a new band of true believers in February 2020, but really, really took them in a different direction. That's at a time when there were you know in the departments they were looking to determine who was leaking and who was a true Trumpist, so forth and so on.
So, I think in a second administration, it's going to look far more like the last year of the first administration. And he's going to really focus on bringing people in who are loyal to him, who share his views and are not going to push back, like myself and Jim Mattis and others had done during the first term.
MATTINGLY: One of the questions I've had over the course of the last couple of weeks is you've been very upfront that you would not support the former president in this election. Do you think we will hear from more of your former colleagues as we get closer to November?
ESPER: No, I don't think so. I think at this point in time, there's been what, two or three of us that have spoken out myself, John Bolton, John Kelly, that we won't support the president, but I -- look, I think it's baked in at this point in time. It's -- while many have not come and had settled offense and not said anything, I think half of the original cabinet have not come out and spoken in support of Trump side speaks volumes as well.
So I don't -- I think we'll see what we see going into the final 70 days now at this point.
MATTINGLY: The world's challenge clearly have evolved significantly just since the end of the former presidents first term in office.
When you kind of look out into the future, who do you think would make the country safer and stronger on the world stage, the former president or Vice President Kamala Harris?
ESPER: Well, I've said on many occasions, I don't think President Trump is fit for the office. To me, I set a bar that says character counts. To me, that -- that's what I look for first and foremost. And secondly, I look for somebody who can unify the country, who can heal the wounds.
You know, people often ask me, what are the greatest threats facing our country today and they expect I will say Iran, or Russia, or China. But it's not. It's political extremism coming from both sides of the aisle, political aisle. That's really a breaking down our politics and making us unable, unable to take tough decisions, whether it's addressing the budget debt, or solving the border crisis, or standing up to China in a much more effective way.
[16:35:01]
So I think we have to fix ourselves at home first and so I don't see Donald Trump is able to do that.
And look at -- H.R. McMaster also writes correctly, so that Donald Trump had a number of failures, but he also had a number of successes as well. I thought the shift -- major shift on our national defense strategy toward China was very important. And it's bookended at the end of his term with the Abraham Accords.
So -- but again, to me, integrity matters, character matters, and that's what I look for first and foremost in our leaders.
MATTINGLY: Just real quick because we're out of time, but you said a couple months ago you weren't quite there yet on President Biden and supporting him since he wont support the former president, would you -- are you there on Kamala Harris?
ESPER: You know, I said that the first part, to pick a next- generation leader will have a clear advantage. And I think she's shown that over the last several weeks, I'd like to her messages with regard to unify -- unifying the country. I'd like the positive, the joy of her campaign, which stands in stark contrast to the Trump administration.
But what I'm looking for now and I think a lot of Americans are, or at least disaffected Republicans, Reagan Republicans like myself is, I want to see her come to the center more, kind of reach out that large mass of us in the middle who are looking for more common sense practical policies not driven by the wings of the party, so that's what I'm waiting for. I got 70 days and we'll see how it goes from here until then.
MATTINGLY: Secretary Mark Esper, always appreciate your time, sir. Thank you.
ESPER: Thank you, Phil.
MATTINGLY: And we're following the breaking news and one of Donald Trumps biggest legal cases, the new details in moments.
Plus, we're joined by a lifelong Republican who had a huge speaking role last week at the Democratic National Convention. Mesa, Arizona Mayor John Giles is here to discuss his endorsement of the vice president.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:40:51]
MATTINGLY: There is breaking news in our law and justice lead. Special counsel Jack Smith filed a brief in the 11th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals today, seeking to revive the classified documents case against former President Donald Trump. This after Judge Aileen Cannon dismissed the case last month.
CNN's Katelyn Polantz joins me now.
And, Katelyn, I thought I could read at one pages and the six minutes before the show, I did not. What does this mean?
KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, just to begin with, the one thing that department wants is they want this appeals court to bring the Donald Trump case back to life over classified documents, the case in Florida against him and two co- defendants. That's the basic thing here, but more broadly, the Justice Department is arguing to defend their use of special counsels, special investigators, special prosecutors, and the ability of the attorney general or even anyone that runs the department in the executive branch to appoint people beneath them and give them some level of autonomy.
What Judge Cannon did was cut out that possibility because she said, I don't think that this is something that you can have under the Constitution, a prosecutor like this. So, now at the appeals court, this is the first time we're seeing the full legal arguments where the Justice Department is defending its case against Donald Trump, its own actions.
Next, we'll see more briefs from the other side. They want oral arguments to happen. And this is the sort of issue that could it could go all the way.
MATTINGLY: All right. We'll have to wait and see. It is a blunt filing to say the least from Jack Smith and his team.
Katelyn Polantz, as always, my friend, thanks so much.
In any other political season, it would have been a truly odd site, a lifelong Republican being cheered by a crowd of thousands of Democrats. And yet it happened to Mayor John Giles. He's going to join me live, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR JOHN GILES (R), MESA, ARIZONA: I've got a confession to make. I'm a lifelong Republican.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:46:44]
MATTINGLY: More now in our law and justice lead today, a major update in a case involving several Trump allies and former lawyers.
A judge will soon decide whether those charged with attempting to overturn the 2020 election results can face prison time if they are convicted. This is part of the election subversion case in Arizona which the same judge today set for trial date of January 5, 2026.
Joining us now is a self-declared, lifelong Republican who endorsed Vice President Kamala Harris for president and spoke last week at the Democratic National Convention, the mayor of Mesa, Arizona, John Giles.
Mr. Mayor, I appreciate your time.
I want to get to the broader politics in a moment, but just to start those in this case who were charged include former White House chief of staff, Mark Meadows, former Trump attorney Rudy Giuliani, Christina Bobb, who currently serves as a lawyer for the RNC on election integrity. In your view, based on kind of what you know and what you saw, do you think they should face prison time?
MAYOR JOHN GILES (R), MESA, ARIZONA: You know, I'm looking forward to a jury and a judge's opinion on that. It did does seem like a straightforward case to me where they are guilty of fraudulent activities and seeking to set aside a lawful election whether or not that's -- so I think they are correctly charged with felonies in this case what the exact punishment ought to be. I think it is something that will go through the due process and in a judge and a jury will weigh in on that.
But eliminating that, taken that off the table right now, before there's been a sentencing hearing, before there has been a conviction, does seem oddly premature.
MATTINGLY: I want to remind viewers about what you said last week at the convention. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GILES: The Grand Old Party has been kidnapped by extremist and devolved into a cult, the cult of Donald Trump.
I have an urgent message, message for the majority of Americans those who like me are in the political middle, John McCain's Republican Party is gone and we don't owe a damn thing to what's been left behind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: Mr. Mayor, it was a powerful moment when you probably didn't imagine you would ever be in the middle of on some level. But I think my question in the wake of that is what response, have you received from fellow Republicans, if any of them can come to you and said you convince me I'm with you?
GILES: Well, it's surprising a number have. I mean, I -- predictably I got an angry response from a lot of people, but I have been very heartened by, I just walking around town, walking into the city building in the grocery store strangers literally are stopping me in thanking me for giving voice to two people like me who are somewhat politically homeless.
So we find ourselves in the middle and we're used to having a Republican Party that was -- that had loyalty to principles. Now, we've got a party that the litmus test is whether or not you have blind loyalty to an individual. So again, there's a lot of people like me that I think feel like we need permission to vote for the right candidate in this election. And that's not Mr. Trump.
MATTINGLY: The other thing of a curious about is kind of what I alluded through the beginning, which is, was there any point at the convention where you were looking around thinking like this is bizarre, you never thought you'd be in this place?
[16:50:10]
GILES: No, you know, right before I walked out to that podium, I had one of those moments I'll remember for the rest of my life thinking, how did I get here? This is not a place that I would ever have imagined that I would get this opportunity, but id frankly I was grateful for it because I think it's very important that voices like mine be heard.
We had -- this is a pivotal election. This is a very strategic time in our country, and I think it is important to point out what a flawed candidate Donald Trump is. This is -- this is a year that Republicans need to know that it's okay not to vote for a Republican at the top of the ticket.
MATTINGLY: And one of the most important states of all is where you are from.
Mr. Mayor, John Giles of Mesa, Arizona, always appreciate your time. Thanks so much.
GILES: Thank you.
Well, cities across the country have the backing of the U.S. Supreme Court to fine or even jail homeless people for sleeping outside. Is this policy actually helping solve a growing crisis? CNN visits one of the hardest hit cities to find out.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:55:48]
MATTINGLY: We're back now with our "Homeless in America" series.
Earlier this summer, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that cities can find, or even jail people for sleeping outside.
CNN's Nick Watt went to San Francisco, a city with notorious homeless problem, which is now aggressively sweeping homeless encampments from its streets.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NICK WATT, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You've got to go? But you know where you're going to go?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, get the dog.
WATT: Okay. Okay. Okay.
(voice-over): We are in the mission district. It's a little after 7:00 a.m.
Is this the first time you've been involved in one of these sweeps?
YOLANDA, UNHOUSE SAN FRANCISCAN: No, no. This is the first time they've been so quiet and nice.
WATT: So, you'll be in a shelter tonight?
YOLANDA: Well, let's hope. Yes.
WATT: The Supreme Court ruled that cities can now cite, fine or jail these people even if they have nowhere else to go.
MAYOR LONDON BREED (D), SAN FRANCISCO: We have the ability to now enforce the law.
WATT: Mayor London Breed introduced what she calls a very aggressive strategy. They issued around 25 citations in the first two weeks.
You're criminalizing something that a lot of people can't help. They don't have a lot of choice.
BREED: Yes. And that would be the case if we weren't offering people a place to go inside.
WATT: They haven't offered your shelter?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They said there's no opening for a shelter right now. There's no beds.
WATT: The city says no one in this morning sweep ended up in a shelter, not one.
This is the afternoon sweep. We're in Soma, South of Market. The issue is this is the 34th time the city has swept this area this year alone.
More than 4,000 people live on San Francisco streets. There are fewer than 4,000 shelter beds and most nights, they're near full, with a waitlist of over 100.
He's offering you shelter beds.
FROSTY, UNHOUSED SAN FRANCISCAN: Yeah.
WATT: So what are you going to do? Are you going to stay here?
FROSTY: Yeah, I'm taking, but you know what, it's something where it's cubicle like, I won't do it, man. I won't do it because I save (INAUDIBLE) in 20, 22 years. Do you really take I want to be closed up in a room with bars and (EXPLETIVE DELETED), no, I don't think so.
WATT: Yeah.
FROSTY: I rather sleep outside.
WATT: Since the Supreme Court's decision, cities and towns in states across the country are now proposing passing and enforcing anti- camping laws. Across California, state authorities have started sweeping encampments.
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D), CALIFORNIA: I'm here on behalf of 40 million Californians that are fed up. I'm here because I'm one of them.
WATT: But more than 50 academics told the Supreme Court there's no evidence that criminalizing homelessness works.
In fact, there's a lot of evidence that it's counterproductive.
BREED: Well, what we want to be able to do is use the penalties as a way to get people to commit to going indoors. That's part of our solution.
WATT: Chris, just visiting here at Jessie and Sixth, got a place to live after a similar sweep.
So it can work, this system.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely. If you just have to get the documents in order. But tragedies happen in these sweeps, a lot of people lose everything, things that they can't replace.
WATT: So I came back here to Jessie and Sixth three days later.
The unhoused people are back. Police are back. The city is back.
You spent a lot of money from the city sweeping that same street to me, that is the definition of madness.
BREED: But what I'm saying to you is the next option that we have for people who are refusing what we're offering is we will be citing and you'll maybe in the next couple of months, take a look at our data and see whether or not this is working. And if it's working, we'll continue. If its not, we need to pivot and to try something else.
WATT: What's your plan? Where are you going to go?
CARMEN, UNHOUSED SAN FRANCISCAN: Probably around the corner.
WATT: Around the corner?
CARMEN: Yeah.
WATT: And then come back?
CARMEN: Yeah, later after they finish.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WATT (on camera): Now, the mayor concedes that homelessness has, quote, gotten out of control in San Francisco and elsewhere across the country. And also that San Francisco has become a destination.
So, the city is now limiting, restricting the services that made San Francisco that destination in they're also offering bus tickets its for anyone who's unhoused from out of town, will give them a ticket to take them back to where they came from. About 100 people so far have taken them up on that offer. The city, of course, is also trying to build more housing, which takes a long time and is very expensive. You know, I asked the mayor, is this political what you're doing? She
said no, she's up for reelection. She said no. I said, are you trying to be tough. She said, I'm not trying to look tough, I am tough -- Phil.
MATTINGLY: Nick Watt, critically important reporting, thanks so much.
Well, you can follow the show on X @TheLeadCNN. If you ever miss an episode of THE LEAD, you can listen to the show wherever you get your podcast.
The news continues on CNN with Alex Marquardt in for Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM".
