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The Lead with Jake Tapper
Harris, Trump Campaign In Battlegrounds After Contentious Debate; Trump Says He Will Not Debate Harris Again. Backlash Over Trump's Alliance With Right-Wing Activist; What Did Colleges Learn From Campus Protests?; Why The NFL Is Changing Football's Most Iconic Play; Judge Drops Two Charges Against Trump In Georgia Election Case. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired September 12, 2024 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:47]
PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Here we go again, another debate over another debate.
THE LEAD starts right now.
Donald Trump says no new face off, but that's not what Kamala Harris just said. The vice president is in battleground North Carolina right now trying to pull ahead in this neck and neck race.
Plus, a split in the Republican Party spills into public view. What people close to Trump worrying about his close connection with a controversial right-wing activist. Could her influence cost the former president votes?
And with just a few hours until kickoff, CNN investigates a huge role change aiming to keep football players safe all the way from the NFL to our youngest athletes on the field.
(MUSIC)
BROWN: Welcome to THE LEAD.
I'm Pamela Brown, in for Jake Tapper.
And just moments ago, former President Trump on Truth Social weighed in with huge news on the prospect of another presidential debate saying, quote, there will be no third debate.
This announcement coming as he and Vice President Kamala Harris are back on the campaign trail today after their contentious debate on Tuesday, which many conservatives and some Trump allies viewed as a win for Harris.
Now right now, Harris is speaking in battleground North Carolina, where she, too, weighed in on a third debate, and that possibility just moments ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And I believe we owe it to the voters to have another debate.
(CHEERING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Regardless of who won Tuesday's debate and whether we get another one this very close race is far from over, anything can happen in the next eight weeks before Election Day. And, of course, early voting is kicking off, right? In fact, Democrats today are being realistic or given themselves a reality check and practically every conversation, public or private, Harris aides and Harris herself are tempering expectations and continuing to insist she is the underdog, to avoid getting burned by over-confidence.
Our panel is here to discuss a lot happening today.
Marc, let's kick it off with you with this news from Trump that he won't debate Harris again. Is this a mistake?
MARC LOTTER, FORMER DIRECTOR OF STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS, TRUMP 2020 CAMPAIGN: No, I don't think so because I think regardless of what the polls and the overall numbers say about who won, who lost, when you look at the "Reuters" panel, when you look at the quotes from "The New York Times", it shows that the undecided voters, which is the really the only voters that count right now, they didn't leave that debate thinking Kamala won or she didn't seal the deal.
They still like the Trump policies. They want the lower costs. They want a secure border. She hasn't sold them yet. That's on her. I don't think that another debate is in his interests.
BROWN: I will note though, in our CNN poll conducted after the debate, 69 percent of independents polled did think that Harris won the debate. And so you have to ask the question, would another debate potentially be an opportunity for Trump to try to sway some of those independents he needs?
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Donald Trump has debated more in presidential general elections than anyone in American history and he won the debate against Joe Biden in our poll by 35 points but the other six debates against Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, now Kamala Harris, he lost by an average of 25 points. Okay? He's a terrible debater.
The Titanic didn't sail across the Atlantic a second time, okay? He needs to he should mute his microphone when he's speaking, not just when Kamala is speaking. I mean, he's awful at this. He's the most experienced and he gets worse with everyone with a great exception of when President Biden just lost the debate, he just collapsed in Trump won that, and that's to his credit. I didn't think he performed all that well, but it didn't matter because Biden collapsed.
But except for that one, he's been terrible at this. Of course, he's not going to debate again, he's awful at it.
BROWN: Harris is saying there should be a debate.
NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Of course. I mean, she humiliated him. She emasculated him. She spanked his fanny for 90 minutes in front of millions of voters. Why would he want to do that again?
And, of course, she wants to do it again because she scored an A plus. She was stellar. She had high expectations going in. She's surpassed those expectations and dismantled him.
So, of course, he's coming out to say, no way. I don't want that again.
BROWN: And you said this, a lot of Democrats have been, you know, on a high after this debate, viewing her as the winner.
This morning on CNN, it was really interesting.
[16:05:01]
Democratic Congresswoman Debbie Dingell praise the debate performance, but then she said there was this phone call that she had from one of her township supervisors and it really brought her back down to earth when they discussed how Trump's message to Marc's point resonated with people in this critical battleground state of Michigan. Here's what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DEBBIE DINGELL (D-MI): He stayed on message on immigration and immigration is a powerful, it leads to insecurity, fear, both in economics, the job market. With all due respect, I think the CNN poll that showed him four points up was not accurate. There had been two other polls in Michigan that I've trusted, know the pollsters, that both showed that statistical dead heat. It's just closer than people realize.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: What do you think? Is this a reality check?
BEGALA: A hundred percent right. I've known Debbie a long time, so I'm biased. She's a friend of mine.
Democrats who don't listen to Debbie Dingell are fools, knows Michigan better than anybody. She signed -- sounded the warning in 2016. People didn't listen to her.
By the way, it's just good sense. You know, as Kamala Harris still says, I'm the underdog, because she is.
You -- you get this because you're from Kentucky. Eddie Sutton was legendary basketball coach at Kentucky. Before that, he coached Arkansas. So I'm working for the governor of Arkansas. He's running for president.
It's the last ten days of the race, and he had put it away. Frankly, he was running away with it at this point. But last week or two, not like this, a dead heat.
Eddie called, I got the call. He said, you go and tell Bill, your two points up with two minutes to play, press, don't stall. Best advice I ever got.
I went of course told Clinton that. I tell every politician that, press, don't stall.
She is -- she is dead heat tied. She really is. And so she's got to press.
By the way, also Mr. Trump, nobody should take their foot off the gas in this thing.
BROWN: I want to actually bring Marc back in on this sound, the sound from Frank Luntz, who's, of course, a pollster, Republican pollster. He's often a guest here on this show. He was speaking to Piers Morgan about his take on the debate and what it means for Trump.
Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRANK LUNTZ, POLLSTER & COMMUNICATIONS STRATEGIST: I think that this will cost him. Yes, I'm trying to decide if I want to go on record and the answers yes. I think that he loses because of this debate performance.
PIERS MORGAN, HOST: Wow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LOTTER: I love Frank, and I consider him a friend, but I think he's really off base on this one.
I mean, a couple of things. Number one, I don't think any of the polls show that. Two, the polls, even though they all show neck and neck in the last ten years, Donald Trump doesn't underperform polls. He over- performs polls.
And I think that's why they have the confidence of thinking that right now, Kamala Harris is underperforming where Joe Biden was. She's underperforming where Hillary Clinton was in 2016, both nationally and in the battleground states. This is still Donald Trump's race to lose.
BROWN: Nia, I want to get back to you, but I want to go straight to Charlotte, North Carolina where Kamala Harris is speaking live right now. Let's listen.
HARRIS: Think about that. And let us be very clear, somebody who suggests we should terminate the Constitution of the United States should never again stand behind the seal of the President of the United States. Never again, never again.
(CHEERING)
HARRIS: Never again.
And, you know, one of the points that I mentioned on Tuesday -- so let -- the people who served under him at the White House who saw him every day, right? His national security adviser, his defense secretary, his chief of staff, and his vice president, all have warned, all, who worked with him every day in the White House, sat with him in the Oval Office, have warned America, Donald Trump is not fit to be president of the United States, and should never again occupy our nation's highest office.
(CHEERING)
HARRIS: So North -- and we're not going back.
(CHANTING)
HARRIS: We're not going back.
And so, it comes down to this, it comes down to this -- we are here together because we love our country, we love our country. And we understand the awesome, awesome responsibility that comes with the greatest privilege on earth, the privilege and pride of being an American.
(CHEERING)
(CHANTING)
HARRIS: That's right.
(CHANTING)
HARRIS: That's right. That's right. Right.
And so, I believe it is the highest form then of patriotism to fight for the ideals of our country, and to fight to realize the promise of America.
[16:10:15]
So North Carolina, we have 54 days until election day, 54 days, and just 35 days -- just 35 days until early voting begins.
(CHEERING)
HARRIS: And it's not only the presidency that's on the ballot. There are many important races, including Josh Stein running for governor.
(CHEERING)
HARRIS: Whose opponent was handpicked by Donald Trump and wants a ban, a total ban on abortion in this thing, right? So, these are stakes in this election up and down the ballot, up and
down the ballot but we know the power is with the people the power is with the people. And your voice is your vote, North Carolina.
Your vote is your voice, and we know -- here's the thing also. We're all -- we've got. We are just -- we are loving, our campaign, aren't we? We are loving this campaign.
We're having a good time. We're having a good time. I know that.
(CHEERING)
HARRIS: But here's also the thing: ours will be a very tight race until the end, okay? It's going to be a tight race until the end and we are the underdog, understand that. We are the underdog. There are powerful forces trying to convince people that their vote doesn't matter.
There are powerful forces -- here, too. But I say all that to say we've got some hard work ahead of us, But here's the thing I love about everybody here, we love hard work. Hard work is good work.
(CHEERING)
HARRIS: Hard work is good work. Hard work is good work.
And with your help, we will win in November. We will win. We will. We will win.
So, North Carolina, today, I'm going to ask you, are you ready to make your voices heard?
CROWD: Yes!
HARRIS: Do we believe in freedom?
CROWD: Yes!
HARRIS: Do we believe in opportunity?
CROWD: Yes!
HARRIS: Do we believe in the promise of America?
CROWD: Yes!
HARRIS: And are we ready to fight for it?
CROWD: Yes!
HARRIS: And when we fight, we win. God bless you and God bless the United States of America.
BROWN: Well, there you heard a very impassioned Kamala Harris, fresh off the momentum from the debate on Tuesday night, sticking with that message that she is the underdog and there are so a lot of hard work ahead.
Nia-Malika, what was your takeaway?
HENDERSON: And listen, she is the underdog. She's a Black woman. There hasn't even been a Black woman elected governor ever in this country. So, the idea that she's going to be the president of the United States, she is certainly the underdog and has a lot to overcome. That is why the campaign is poised in the way that they are.
Listen, they're in North Carolina. They're in Georgia. The Sun Belt has opened up to Kamala Harris in a way that it was shut -- shut off to buy in North Carolina. This is a state that Obama was able to win in 2008. He lost it four years later.
Georgia has many, many HBCUs. There's been a surge. We were just talking about this, a surge in interest in volunteers and registration, particularly among African-American voters and young voters.
So listen, she's got a real path. She's got more paths and Biden had. But listen, as she said, is going to take a lot of hard work.
BEGALA: There's two polls in North Carolina this week, each show her three points ahead. Now, that's still margin of error. It's a state, except for Barack Obama, my party has not carried in 25 years or 50 years.
So it's a very hard state for Democrats. But it can be done, and I just was speechwriter, that correlation we just showed. She has the audience chanting, yes, yes. That's all positive. It's affirmative. You want that?
And then she says at the end, when we fight, we win. This is very affirming and positive and it's a stark contrast with Mr. Trump, which is America's terrible and we're in decline and we're bad.
HENDERSON: We're eating dogs apparently.
BEGALA: Apparently, there's a lot of dog-eating in Ohio, which hot dogs I get, but I don't think anything beyond that. But yeah, I liked the way she close it.
LOTTER: This is no different though than the convention, the debate, or what we just heard. There is still no answer. There is no I'm going to lower the gas and grocery prices.
[16:15:00]
I'm going to secure the border and there's also a fundamental --
HENDERSON: There is policies. She's talked about policies.
LOTTER: -- she's fundamentally not recognizing that she and Joe Biden are the ones who created these problems. So I loved the soaring rhetoric. She's a fine speaker, but unlike a Bill Clinton, unlike a Barack Obama, who the voters blamed their predecessors for their economic malaise and they were rewarded for it, the people blame Joe Biden and Kamala Harris and they should. So it's hard to say you get a change agent when you're the one who caused it in the first place.
HENDERSON: You know, I'm just going to say, you can disagree with Kamala Harris's policy, but this idea that she has no policy just isn't true. She has an immigration policy. It's the policy that Donald Trump blocked and that she wants to put into law if she's president. She has policies on small businesses. She has she has policies on housing.
So this sort of idea that somehow --
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Is that messaging getting through to the voter, to those independents and movable voters that she needs to win?
BEGALA: It's not about policy.
HENDERSON: No.
BEGALA: I'm sorry. We're 54 days from an election. I care about policy, but what Kamala Harris has done is she combines policy with biography, policy plus biography equals authenticity.
HENDERSON: And vibes, right? I mean --
BEGALA: Right.
LOTTER: Does she pay for groceries and gas with vibes?
BEGALA: She's got plenty of policies.
LOTTER: People know that groceries were cheaper, gas --
HENDERSON: You might not like her policies, but she has them.
BROWN: All right. Panel, stick around.
Up next, we have a Republican senator who will no doubt weigh in on this discussion, his thoughts on his party's anxiety over a certain Trump adviser and where Trump needs to go from here with just 54 days to the election.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:20:26]
BROWN: We have some live images from Tucson, Arizona. Donald Trump is about to take the stage at a campaign event there. This just minutes after he posted on social media that he is blowing of another debate.
I want to bring in Republican Senator Markwayne Mullin of Oklahoma.
Senator, thank you for coming on the show.
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN (R-OK): Thank you. Appreciate it.
BROWN: So, the last debate brought in 67 million viewers. Is Trump missing an opportunity here by saying no to another debate?
MULLIN: Well, I think we had an opportunity to do another debate on Fox, right? He did one on CNN which kudos to you guys, I thought CNN did a pretty good job. And then we had one of the ABC.
And it wasn't -- I mean, the moderators there with Linsey and David, I didn't think they were anywhere close to being even. I mean, it was very one-sided. You could tell. I think if she would agree to do one on Fox, it may be a different story but they're not willing to do one on Fox.
So I would suggest the same thing. Why would we go into a another left leaning media outlet when she hasn't once decided to go over to a more of a conservative outlet like Fox or even Newsmax or any level (ph).
BROWN: And I know ABC would contest the description of left leaning.
And you have an issue with the moderators. We've heard that from other Republicans, but isn't this an opportunity to reach millions of people?
MULLIN: Well, he reaches millions people every day. But -- and ABC can say whatever they want, but the truth is, Linsey fact-checked Donald Trump multiple times throughout the whole event, not one time do they ever call out a Kamala on any of her comments. Like saying that she's for guns when she's in 2019, she was obviously for the buyback, about saying she's never talked about banning fracking when in 2019 she openly said she 100 percent wanted to ban fracking.
And they didn't want to call her out on that. They were constantly pushing back on Donald Trump. So you can say whatever you want, but the American people saw exactly. They were pushing on Donald Trump and not one time pushing back on anything she said. So it's 100 percent.
ABC can be whatever -- say whatever they want. There are 100 percent left-wing at this point.
BROWN: Okay, so we're not going to the back-and-forth as we have a lot to get to. And one is the fact that look, early voting is kicking off the racist super-tied as you know, somewhat Trumps confidence are starting to scare GOP veterans based on our reporting just coming in.
I have to ask you, should right-wing firebrand like Laura Loomer, who once said 911 was an inside job, be in Trump's ear.
MULLIN: Yeah. President Trump is really good about surrounding around -- surround himself around people. That's -- that gives him the positive advice and information that is useful to him winning the election.
To say who should be around his ear, who shouldn't -- this is a guy that's been very successful in business. He's built a wonderful brand. He -- very successful business along the way. He's not been in politics, but he knows how to put the right people in place to get the job done, and I'm convinced about that.
BROWN: You say that but talk about all the people he fire -- he had to fire in his administration. So how is he putting the right people if he's firing them?
MULLIN: But everybody's had to fire people. Everybody's had to fire people. I've had to hire -- I've hired thousands of people and I fired hundreds of people because you have to hire right. You got to fire right.
You don know exactly how the person is until they get past or six-week honeymoon. And then you start figuring out the rural individual. Any business owner out there will tell you it's just important to hire the right people and to also to fire the right people because they can be horrible for the work environment.
You've worked with people that need to be fired.
BROWN: Right.
MULLIN: But probably --
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: But the idea is the argument, oh, he hired -- he puts the right people in place, but he has fired a number of them when you talk about that --
(CROSSTALK)
MULLIN: But, Pam, you got to keep in mind that how many horrible decision says this administration made and haven't and hasn't held anybody accountable. When a bad decision is made, somebody has to be held accountable because we can't admit you did something wrong, you can never change.
And these individuals is that part of this administration has made a disastrous decision after disastrous decision, all going back all the way from the Afghanistan withdrawal to where we are today and Ukraine, and not one single person has been held accountable, not one person.
What President Trump did, he was real good about holding people accountable in his administration. That's part of life, that's part of work environment.
BROWN: Do you think he should fire his debate -- the team that prepped him as Senator Graham said for the debate?
MULLIN: No, I thought he did -- no, Senator Graham is a great friend of mine. I thought President Trump did a great job.
BROWN: OK.
MULLIN: I mean, I talked to match words. He said, you know, fighting this kind of my background. So you do professionally write and he says, how do you fight three people at once? I said, you don't, you run.
BROWN: But isn't that kind of an admission that he didn't win if you're putting all the blame on the referees?
MULLIN: No, I -- actually not.
BROWN: I mean, Scott Jennings said on this network, as you know, he's a conservative said, look, if you're not making the bank shots, you cant blame the referee. So --
MULLIN: I think -- I think President Trump made a very good point today when he made his announcement, when he says the person that loses always wants a rematch. She's the one that started calling for a rematch immediately. That'll tell you who won and who lost the election or the debate.
[16:25:02]
BROWN: But according to our CNN poll, 69 percent of independents who Trump needs to win this election in these key battleground states thought that Kamala Harris won this debate.
But I want to move on to ask you about this and this -- let's get into a little bit of policy now, Trump is now floating 100 percent tariffs on all imported goods from certain countries, doubling the price of everyday purchases for Americans. If Trump wins, would you support that policy and its impact on Americans?
MULLIN: Well, you're taking -- you're taking a little bit out of context there because I worked with him during the tariffs and what he's for is free trade, when he started is people taking advantage of us. If we're going to have trade with China, trade with any European country, we need to make sure it's even.
Remember the trade policy worked on Earth is a trade policy that was put in place to rebuild the world after World War II. And we gave them access to our economy. The country is being rebuilt now. We are able to access their economy just like they are as ours, and they don't want to change those decisions. They want to have -- it allows us to have 20 percent access to their economy. They want on 100 percent access to us.
And so what he's saying right now is if you're not going to do that, then we're going to put tariffs on your goods. If you're not going to allow us to bring our steel in Europe country, but yet you want to bring your steel to ours, then we're going to put tariffs on your goods.
Right now, what we have facing is inflation based on the horrible disastrous energy policies of this administration has. Now, that's real issues. Those could be changed today if this administration change their energy policy.
BROWN: And I understand you want to pivot to that, but I do want to follow up because CNN spoke to the former chief economist at the International Monetary Fund, who says that policy that I didn't take out a context that I took Trump's own words would make inflation far worse.
We are running out of time, but I do want to ask you this, Attorney General Merrick Garland spoke about the threats against the Justice Department and election officials and what they are facing going into this election. He just launched this election threats task force.
Last election, you were one of the lawmakers who voted to not certify Biden's victory. If Trump loses and every state certifies as the results of their election, will you accept a peaceful transfer of power?
MULLIN: You know, it's hard to say what you're going to do, and what you're not because my job is to make sure their regularities are within the standard that the federal government puts out place which is us. What is irregularities that we're willing to accept. If it's past those irregularities in a district or a state, then absolutely not. It was within those standards, then we will.
BROWN: And every state -- if every state certifies the election results and they have their own process --
MULLIN: If the elections are certified underneath the standards that they put forth, every state has the right to set their --
BROWN: What does that mean?
MULLIN: Well, because the -- every states sets her own state election laws, right? But federal government sets irregularities as to which how far they can go. So is it -- is it going to be less than 1 percent of that, less than a half percent, whatever those irregularities are, we'll take that case at a time.
I will say this, Pam, at this point, it doesn't matter if Republicans win or the Democrats win. Both parties are probably going to cry foul.
You got to remember in 20 -- in 2016, when President Trump won, the Democrats were saying that election was stolen.
BROWN: That's a false equivalence.
MULLIN: In any move that -- no, it's not.
BROWN: To what we saw in 2020.
MULLIN: Well, it's still the same thing.
BROWN: The sitting president saying the election was stolen.
MULLIN: If people are going to claim that the election was stolen, it doesn't make it.
But you're telling me in 2015, Pam, that Democrats didn't say that the election was rigged? They did, they absolutely did.
BROWN: That is an absolutely false equivalent. And just went on --
(CROSSTALK)
MULLIN: It's not equivalence. Did they say it or did they not?
Because I can -- I can -- you had as a speaker of the house, Nancy Pelosi, who wasn't the speaker then, openly said that the election was not fair. She said that the democracy is in place. You had Maxine Waters stand up there and said we got a fight against this corrupt system that stole the election from us. Those were Democrats that say that.
BROWN: Listen, what happened in 2020 was you had a sitting president in office who lost the election, who said it was rigged, it was stolen. And members of Congress voting against certification that the states had already certified and taking it to the Supreme Court, trying to overturn the will of millions of voters. That is very different from what we saw.
(CROSSTALK)
MULLIN: Well, if you want to talk about how many people had voted not to certify, let's talk about the Democrats who didn't vote to serve -- didn't vote to certify the election when Bush won.
BROWN: It's one thing.
MULLIN: We can go way back in history. We talked about members who didn't vote to certify.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: People complained, it's another to organize and then you saw January 6.
So, what I hear from one of the question I asked you, what you are not willing to accept the results of this next election, even if every state certified election.
MULLIN: I didn't say that. I said I'm going to look at it.
BROWN: OK, you're going to look at it.
MULLIN: I'll take it by case. Absolutely, I'll look at it.
BROWN: OK.
MULLIN: I have no issues looking at it. I'm going to look at this, but I'm not going to sit here and tell you what I'm going to do and not going to do until I could see the results. And it doesn't -- it's not based on who wins. It's based on the results of the irregularities.
I'm there to make sure that the election is held and is held within our constitutional boundaries. I will uphold the Constitution. I swore to do that. It doesn't make any difference who wins it?
Obviously, I'd love President Trump to win. But if the election is fair and is handled in the right way, and I got to vote to certify it, I'll vote to certify at that point.
BROWN: I think the problem is the election was free and fair in 2020. And yet --
MULLIN: Wasn't there when Bush won --
BROWN: --- members of Congress voted to certify it.
MULLIN: When Bush won and had this hanging chad, was it fair at that time? Because there was Democrats that voted not to certify the election back then.
BROWN: Okay. We've talked about the difference.
But Republican Senator Markwayne Mullin, I really appreciate you coming on and making your case here.
MULLIN: Appreciate it.
BROWN: We do appreciate it.
We have a lot to discuss. Our panel is back to weigh in. We're back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN (R-OK): President Trump is real good about surrounding around -- surrounding himself around people. That gives -- that gives him the positive advice and information that is useful to him winning the election.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So, that was Republican Senator Markwayne Mullin moments ago when I asked him about this growing backlash over Trump's alliance with right-wing activist, Laura Loomer.
And we are back with our panel to discuss this.
Jonah, I want to bring you in get your reaction. Today, CNN is reporting that some Republicans are concerned about Laura Loomer's influence on Trump. And then you heard that from the senator basically defending Trump and saying he surrounds himself with the best people. What do you think?
JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, Laura Loomer is a crackpot. Laura Loomer -- to take Laura Loomer to 9/11 commemoration event when Laura Loomer not very long ago, talked about how 9/11 was an inside job is a bad idea. To the extent that people are honest about whether or not -- about how badly Trump lost the debate, most people will tell you its because he listens to people like Laura Loomer who do not give him, you know, who live inside this very MAGA bubble, who always tell him he's awesome and great. I'm sure one of the reasons why he Trump sincerely thinks he did a
fantastic job is because when he got out, Laura Loomer told him, you did a fantastic job.
[16:35:07]
And that's what -- you know, he surrounds himself with some very smart people. He also surrounds himself with just unbelievable sycophants. Laura Loomer is in the sycophant category.
BROWN: What do you think, Marc?
MARC LOTTER, FORMER DIRECTOR OF STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS, TRUMP 2020 CAMPAIGN: Well, first, Laura Loomer does not work for the campaign. She doesn't speak for the campaign.
BROWN: (INAUDIBLE) campaign adviser according to our reporting --
LOTTER: She's not. And I would say, though, that she -- she does have a voice and a certain segment of the party. And I would say that he lists --
GOLDBERG: Whose votes he already got.
LOTTER: But it's also -- but I would say the same reason why that and I would equate it to the Democrats having to listen to the Squad, you have to know where they are. You have to know where their objections are. You have to know what they're doing.
He's listening to his far right, as you have to listen to their extreme crazy far left and so I equate it that way.
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't know Laura Loomer. I wouldn't know her if she came up to me in the street. I do know that Trump had 42 members of his cabinet, 42. Eighteen of them are opposing -- are refusing to support him, maybe accurate.
Eighteen of the 42 members of his cabinet, his own vice president, Mike Pence, is not supporting him. Of all of the living nominees of the Republican Party for president and vice president, one supports Donald Trump, Governor Palin, former Governor Palin of Alaska. Everyone else.
So that's why he's turning to people with apparently eccentric views on the Internet about 9/11, because the legitimate Republicans are running away from him like the devil runs from holy water.
BROWN: It strikes me on this. And Laura Loomer, that you have Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene even coming out and saying she's too extreme.
NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Wow, that is a shocker because she, of course, you know, believes in Jewish space lasers.
You know, Laura Loomer is a truther when it comes to 911, believes in conspiracy theories. But Donald Trump himself without Laura Loomer believes in all sorts of conspiracy theories, too.
So, you know, you are who you surround yourself with. And I think that is the case here. I mean, she has tweeted awful things, awful racist things.
This is what she said about Kamala Harris. The White House will smell like curry. And White House speeches will be facilitated via a call center if Kamala Harris gets into the White House.
You know, that, of course, is a reference to her Indian heritage. It's a stereotype. It's racist. It's terrible.
And this is somebody who is in Donald Trump's ear, both as a sycophant, but also somebody who is telling him things like their dogs in -- you know, dog eating in Ohio and sorts of crazy stuff.
BROWN: Well, he's -- and Trump for his part, I don't know if we have here that, he keeps tweeting out or putting memes up of him saving cats, you know, kind of continuing to fuel this, there we go right there, continuing to fuel this conspiracy theory that has been debunked many times over by the town of Springfield, where this allegedly happened.
What do you think, Marc? Is that a good strategy?
LOTTER: Well, this is, obviously, I mean, look at these kinds of things take off and take a life of their own on social media. There are serious issues in the city of Springfield. I can't speak to cats and dogs, but there are serious issues when you take a city of 60,000 and dumped 20,000 illegal Haitian immigrants into it.
And so I think regardless of focusing on whether it's cats and dogs, they have a problem created by Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.
GOLDBERG: Yeah, look --
BROWN: And we should note they are not illegal immigrants, but go ahead.
LOTTER: They are.
GOLDBERG: No, they are here under color of law. They're --
LOTTER: They're here under a pardon of -- that gives them temporary status with no vetting, it's --
BROWN: But there's a difference between that and --
GOLDBERG: According to our asylum laws, that's why they're here, right?
So, look, I think the actual facts of it are outrageous. You shouldn't lie. You shouldn't spread things that are false. It may not be as dumb politically is a lot of people in Washington think because even though it's not true, it feels directionally true about the chaos that comes through from a run on immigration. And it's based on fear and it's deplorable, but it might be smart.
BROWN: All right. There we go. We're going to end on that note. Thanks to you all.
Our last semester's protests are shaping attitudes on campuses. Now, we're going to discuss that coming up right after this quick break. Stay with us.
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[16:42:55]
BROWN: From highly charged protests to fights over free speech, to the end of affirmative action, many college campuses have become hotspots in the nation's culture wars.
CNN's Audie Cornish sat down with the president of the influential university, Wesleyan, to talk about what students are at and maybe should be exposed to as they get ready for the real-world.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AUDIE CORNISH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The backlash to the campus protests over Israel's war in Gaza was a wake-up call to student activists and school leaders, drawn until a partial spotlight of election year politics. And it's not over yet.
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And I will put every single college president on notice. The American taxpayer will not subsidize the creation of terrorist sympathizers on American soil.
CORNISH: We're taking "The Assignment" on the road to talk to people wrestling with the politics of the moment.
I'm sitting down with Michael Roth, the president of Wesleyan University in Connecticut, to talk about why some universities are cracking down on protesters, and backing away from politics and why he thinks that's a mistake.
You know, I have heard from so many students and parents over the last couple of months who are wondering what the atmosphere is like at these campuses after this past spring. Have you heard from parents of students?
MICHAEL ROTH, WESLEYAN UNIVERSITY PRESIDENT: I've heard from parents and grandparents, uncles and aunts and it's great. I mean, they want to know that kids are going to be safe and you know, my line to them is there'll be safe enough and not going to be to save. They're going to be challenged there. They're going to sometimes even be offended, but they're going to have -- they're going to be safe on campus.
And you know, in the spring, there were protests, but over 90 percent of them were totally peaceful. No property damage, no violence and that was the case here. CORNISH: You have lawmakers in Congress who are saying, look, maybe
we should be doing more oversight of these schools, including private institutions which have been called to into hearings.
ROTH: Yeah.
CORNISH: Taxing endowments maybe kind of going after federal aid to these schools or their access to federal aid.
[16:45:09]
What is that pressure feeling like from the schools? Like what are people talking about?
ROTH: I think there's a great deal of fear that the rhetoric of -- the anti-university rhetoric, but just like we defend free speech for our students. We have to defend the freedom of our faculty and our staff and our students to pursue the research where their inquiry takes them.
And so I think if you care about freedom, if you care about not just students, but the ability to think for yourself with other people around you, then I think this is the time to defend freedom and democracy.
CORNISH: You know, Harvard University put out a statement back in May saying, we will not be offering any more statements of empathy on any topic that's out of purview.
ROTH: That's silly. You know what? I think they did that because they thought Trump is going to win and if they make statements defending basic academic freedom, they'll anger the Trump administration, they were pricing in a Trump victory, neutrality somehow -- suddenly, everyone, neutrality became the common sense.
Now, I don't think schools or corporations should make statements on everything. They never did.
CORNISH: If you want to hear more of this conversation on "The Assignment" podcast, we're taking the show on the road to meet the people shaping the election in the weeks ahead. Find us online or wherever you get your podcast.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: What could a major change in the NFL lead to safer football games for young children, for your children?
CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta has taken a look at the new efforts to improve one of the most dangerous plays in the sport.
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[16:50:34]
BROWN: In our sports lead, the NFL is changing one of its most iconic plays, the kickoff all an attempt to reduce concussions. And it isn't just the pros.
CNN chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): What you're watching is perhaps the most dangerous play in football -- the kickoff.
DR. ALLEN SILLS, CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, NFL: It's space and speed. So if you think about where we're standing here, you've got players that are lined up in this case, maybe 50, 60 yards away from where we are. They're running down the field as fast as they can possibly run.
So coming down the field at speed and then having collisions obviously is a driver for injury.
GUPTA: The NFL says last season concussions occurred four times more often on a kickoff than any other play.
It's exactly why Riverdale Country School in the Bronx wants to change the game.
JOHN PIZZI, ATHLETIC DIRECTOR, RIVERDALE COUNTRY SCHOOL: I sort of jokingly said to him, like, what I want to change football in America, like we need to figure this out.
GUPTA: I want to change football in America. It's pretty audacious.
PIZZI: Yeah, I don't know if I actually realize what I was saying at the time.
GUPTA: John Pizzi is the school's athletic director.
PIZZI: Yes. So in 2018, we had 18 players left for the last game of our season. We had a bunch of concussions and a bunch of season ending injuries. So we made a decision to cancel our last game. But when that season ended, we had to figure out how we were going to manage the next football season.
GUPTA: So together with the Concussion Legacy Foundation, they proposed something pretty radical, getting rid of the sport's most iconic play, no more kickoffs, no more returns. the beginning of their games now look like this. Play just starts at the 35-yard line. And so far, Pizzi says they've seen a 33 percent decrease in concussions across the league, and importantly, in 18 percent increase in participation.
Parents certainly liked the idea and it turns out, so do the players. Like team captain Tristan Cornell.
TRISTAN CORNELL, CAPTAIN, RIVERDALE COUNTRY SCHOOL VARISTY FOOTBALL TEAM: I've talked to people when I told them that my school doesn't do kickoffs, they -- they're like, oh my gosh, that's one of the biggest parts of the game. How can you not do that? But then I see all these injuries that happen from kickoffs, so the fact that we don't have that probably allows us to keep healthy and play throughout the entire season.
SILLS: It's a fascinating approach.
GUPTA: But the NFL's chief medical officer, Dr. Allen Sills, says the league is not yet ready to give up on the kickoff altogether.
SILLS: All options are on the table. I mean, I think that certainly the eliminating the play is one of those options, but I believe there are potentially other solutions. And I think that's our challenge is can we understand what's driving injury and again, preserve the elements of the game because people love the athleticism. They loved the speed, they love the skill level that you see out there.
GUPTA: So this year in the NFL, you're going to see a very different sort of kickoff, what they're calling a dynamic kickoff. Now, again, previously as soon as the ball was kicked, all 11 members of the kicking team would start sprinting down the field to try and tackle the receiving team. Lots of speed, lots of space.
This season, only the kicker is back here while the opposing teams are lined up, all the way over here, separated by just five yards. And none of those players can move until the ball has been caught by the receiving team or it hits the ground. It reduces the speed and the space of the play.
It's what competition committee co-chairman Rich McKay says is one of the biggest rule changes in 30 years.
RICH MCKAY, NFL COMPETITION COMMITTEE, CO-CHAIRMAN: But the problem is, is we're trying to not just make this game better next year, were trying to keep the game going for 10, 20, 30, 40. That's what our legacy is supposed to be.
And so you've got to look at health and safety and make sure that the numbers when they tell you something, you do something.
GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, the Bronx, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Just in, a judge in Georgia has just thrown out some charges and the case there involving Donald Trump. The breaking news up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:59:00]
BROWN: And we are back with breaking news in our law and justice lead. A judge has thrown out three charges in the Georgia election subversion case, including two charges against former President Donald Trump. Judge Scott McAfee throughout count of filing false documents, some were related to the Trump campaign efforts to put forward a slate of fake GOP electors in Georgia. A Trump lawyer is calling this ruling a victory.
And before we go hold your breath moment in outer space today, during the first ever spacewalk by a commercial civilian crew. The entire Polaris Dawn crew was exposed to the vacuum of space as two of its members exited the capsule for a combined 20 minutes. The crew celebrated their success by sharing this selfie right here and a photo of the earth with a message, we are so grateful for all of the support. Please enjoy to recent photos from our mission and stay tuned for our next message.
And in just a moment, former President Donald Trump is scheduled to take the stage in Arizona. That is, of course, another key battleground state, with just 54 days until election, the election. Trump is holding a rally in Tucson right after announcing on social media that he will not participate in another debate with Vice President Kamala Harris. And Harris said moments ago, the American people deserve another debate. Stay tuned on that one.
If you ever missed an episode of THE LEAD, you can listen to the show wherever you get your podcasts, you can also follow me on Instagram @pamelabrownCNN, same with X.
The news continues on CNN with Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM".
