Return to Transcripts main page
CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Sources Say, Biden Seething At Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) Amid Calls To Drop Out; Trump Says, I'll Have A Project 2025 Contributor Run The Border; RNC Ratings Peak At 15-Minute Mark Of Trump's Lengthy Speech; Chris Christie Gets Grilled In "The View"; Representative Adriano Espaillat (D-NY)) Sticks With President Biden. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired July 19, 2024 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST: Will Joe Biden blink? That's tonight on NewsNight.
Good evening, I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Tonight, the riddle confounding the Democratic Party, just what exactly does Joe Biden plan to do? Drop out, or keep on running? New reporting captures the mood and the mindset of a defiant president, angry at donors who want to push him out the door, angry at senators and congressmen, angry at Nancy Pelosi, who, according to The New York Times, he views as an instigator, angry at former President Obama, who he sees as a puppet master, that also from The New York Times.
Donors are tightening the screws. I'm told that Democratic donors are sending an unambiguous message that not a penny will flow to Biden or even to the candidates down ballot until things change at the top.
But, look, calling these tea leaves are charitable to tea leaves. It's a riddle wrapped inside of an enigma projected on a Rubik's cube. Is all this public pressure even working or is the president just digging in? At least for now, he has dug in, and his campaign is now forced to fight back against doubts about the president's commitment to finishing this race.
Here is campaign manager Jen O'Malley Dillon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEN O'MALLEY DILLON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: Absolutely, the president's in this race. You've heard him say that time and time again. And I think we saw on display last night exactly why, because Donald Trump is not going to offer anything new to the American people.
Joe Biden is more committed than ever to beat Donald Trump. And we believe on this campaign, we are built for the close election that we are in and we see the path forward.
(END VIDEO CLIP) PHILLIP: Now, after she made those comments, roughly 11 members of Congress came out of the shadows asking for Biden to step aside. All together, today, a dozen members have said they want him to go.
Plenty to talk about tonight with my panel, Scott Jennings, Jamal Simmons, Karen Finney and Brian Stelter. So, Jamal, which Biden do you believe? The one who is privately saying that he's not going anywhere or the public pronouncements from all these other people that maybe he's thinking about it?
JAMAL SIMMONS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, all these things could be true. First of all, I imagine people if you have a meeting with him at 11:00, he might feel one way. If you have a meeting with him at 5:30, he may feel another way, because that's just how people are. But the reality is if you're running for president, you are running all the way in until you decide you're not. What you cannot do is have a crack in the armor, because once you signal that, the game is really over.
PHILLIP: So, one of the interesting things overnight, Karen, is that AOC, who has stayed behind Biden, she's very transparent about this. She's not like saying Joe Biden is the best possible candidate Democrats could have, but she is saying that, based on the circumstances right now, she's the best that they're going to get. And here's part of her rationale for it. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): I'm not an open convention person. I think that is crazy. And I think that a lot of people may have their like niche politician that they stand that they maybe think is way more nationally popular and recognized than they actually are. But like I don't think an open convention is the way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. My dear friend, Jamal, can tell us about the presidency of one Wesley Clark. Because the point she's making, right, is everybody's popular because we put all of our hopes and dreams and our fantasies about what kind of candidate they're going to be until they get in. And then the reality sets in.
And then as President Wesley Clark -- I love him.
PHILLIP: You know, who knows that also is --
FINNEY: Senator Fred Thompson.
PHILLIP: I mean, Kamala Harris, right? She knows that as well. Because she had a lot of hype, but then when she got into the race, it was much more challenging for her to actually have a campaign.
FINNEY: Yes. I mean, look, she happens to now be the vice president. I think she's been doing an excellent job. But, look, I think there's a couple things we have to think about here. And part of what AOC I think is talking about is part of the reason that progressives are very firmly behind Joe Biden is they are one of the people, groups of people who understand what there is to lose if Donald Trump becomes president, right?
[22:05:02]
They are thinking about Project 2025, which all the research we're seeing, even this week, is moving voters to Joe Biden by three to five points. So, I'm telling you, I'm just seeing it in the data, I just looked at it.
So, I think part of this is about the groups of people -- and, look, I don't know what Joe Biden's going to do, but we're talking about the people who are opposed to him. We just saw AOC. There's a letter of prominent black women leaders, now 4,600, who have signed a letter to Democratic Party leadership saying he's our guy, don't mess with him. And we saw Hakeem Jeffries come out today.
So, both sides are a bit dug in right now. I can't tell you where we're going to end up, but that screen would look very different if you were willing to show the people who are supporting the president. We're very focused on the people who are --
SIMMONS: I mean, let me just say this before you. I'm going to get Scott in.
PHILLIP: Chuckling over there.
FINNEY: Well, it's part of the act for Scott.
SIMMONS: I think it is. What Karen and I agree on most things, I think this is actually okay. This debate for the Democratic Party is okay because, we should have had this debate a year ago. And now here we are basically running through a primary on really the core question of the Biden candidacy, which is about his age.
We've been hearing about it from young people for a year. We've been hearing about it from other people who are paying attention. And so either we are going to make a choice to stick with Joe Biden and we all are going to know like, okay, belly up, we know what we're doing, or we are going to find somebody else, and that other person is going to be the person that carries us to the finish line.
But the Democratic Party needs to have this conversation, and I think we're going to be okay. The American people are used to watching reality T.V. They're used to seeing people have fights, but at the end of the day, we are all going to be fine if we get to a good result.
PHILLIP: The plot is thickening.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I feel like I need to take up for the president here.
PHILLIP: Yes.
JENNINGS: Because he won millions upon millions of votes to earn the Democratic nomination. And I just find it delicious that the party of democracy is now organizing a coup against the sitting president of the United States.
PHILLIP: It's very telling that that is the talking point, though, from Republicans. They are sticking up for the democratic process, the right of voters to -- but they want Joe Biden in this race. The Trump campaign wants Joe Biden in this race.
JENNINGS: Yes, despite what -- every time Karen and I are on T.V., she says, well, I heard this is giving five points for Joe. But if everything you said was true, he'd be ahead 100 to nothing. I mean, why is Donald Trump winning? Because Joe Biden has a terrible, terrible approval rating, A, so the results of the presidency are already, people lost confidence in that, and, B, now everybody knows he's not even capable of being president today, let alone for four more years.
No Project 2025 malarkey is going to change any of that. The contours of the race are set. A failed president and someone who's not fit for the job, that's why Trump is winning.
BRIAN STELTER, SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT, VANITY FAIR: But the extremism of Project 2025 is what will draw any Democrat away from Trump. It doesn't have to be Biden.
FINNEY: And independents.
STELTER: Every day. Here we are again on Friday. It's been more than three weeks since the debate. Biden keeps failing the stamina test. AOC was live on Instagram overnight. Why isn't Joe Biden calling into shows today? Why isn't he doing interviews? Everybody else goes to work when they have COVID. I know the president's a unique case. I understand that's true, but he has the ability right now to call you, Karen. He has the ability.
And the question is, if he's not doing these interviews, it all comes back to this nagging point that I think Americans are picking up on. If he could do it, he would do it. If he was capable of doing this, he would.
PHILLIP: I mean, he certainly called in to Morning Joe a couple weeks ago.
STELTER: And he was pissed off, and it was uncomfortable, and he garbled his words.
PHILLIP: You know, Brian, one of the interesting things about this media --
STELTER: Sorry, Scott, I'm not trying to talk down your candidates.
PHILLIP: One of the interesting things about this media environment is that, you know, the reporting -- I saw this great tweet that was like, you know, President Biden is thinking about thinking about maybe leaving the race. It's very difficult to get inside of the head of just one person. There's only one person.
And it's been amazing how all of these big figures in Democratic politics Have not had the effect that everybody told us they would have, that if Nancy Pelosi came out, he would have no choice, if Barack Obama indicated somehow that he shouldn't be in the race, he would have no choice. That has not happened.
STELTER: He does deserve grace. He does deserve time. But I just think as we think about the timing here and all the pressure that is building, every day he fails that stamina test, the pressure builds and it's a doom loop. We are trapped in a doom loop here.
FINNEY: But here's the other challenge. I'll speak as the party person. You're right, 14 million people came out and voted for Joe Biden. And from that, he earned 3,900 delegates, which basically is what you need to secure the nomination, right? That's why Nancy Pelosi -- whoever wants to, you know, pressure him, he's got his delegates. And, again, that means that he has a stronger negotiating position, frankly.
PHILLIP: So, they're not calling, by the way, not calling those delegates and trying to move the delegates.
[22:10:02]
They're trying to move public opinion.
FINNEY: Right. But I'll tell you, the delegates aren't moving, right? And also the grassroots work is continuing because the issues that we're talking about in this election have not changed.
But the other thing I will say is if you -- and Brian, you would know this as well as anybody. If you read these stories, you can tell from these quotes who is whose proxy trying to act like they know, ain't nobody know, but Joe Biden, what he going to do. So, we can just all lay back.
PHILLIP: That's very much to the point.
SIMMONS: There's a way to ask the question. And I wonder how people do it. Because when I've asked the question, I've gotten a couple of reactions. If you ask people, Joe Biden versus Donald Trump, Democrats are still with Joe Biden. If you say Kamala Harris versus Donald Trump, people are with Kamala Harris. If you say which one, they say, I don't care, you guys figure it out. Send us somebody, we just want to vote against Donald Trump.
JENNINGS: There is more to being president than simply not being Donald Trump. And I think Democrats are losing that in this conversation. And that's why, ultimately, if Biden sticks, they're going to have a hard time. Because simply saying, well, I'm not Trump, won't be enough to overcome the fitness issues that he's got.
STELTER: I'm going to surprise you. I agree with J.D. Vance. J.D. Vance raised the question today.
JENNINGS: Can he serve right now?
STELTER: Why are people not asking this question? Look, when I was on during the Trump years on this network talking about Donald Trump asking about the 25th Amendment.
JENNINGS: We talked about it one day --
STELTER: And why is it only the J.D. Vance is asking these questions now?
JENNINGS: One day Donald Trump couldn't hold a glass of water and we had like every medical person coming out of the woodwork. Should we have the 25th amendment? Joe Biden could barely walk upstairs the other day.
STELTER: And I would argue that the Republican party is weaker because they accepted Trump.
SIMMONS: Why don't we have both of them go buy something else and get two new carriers (ph)?
PHILLIP: I want to raise a very important thing.
STELTER: Most Americans want that, Jamal. Most Americans want that.
PHILLIP: I want to raise a very important thing right now about one of the things AOC raised in her talks, which is if they do switch out this candidate, the Democrats, will Republicans then launch a massive legal campaign to invalidate it? That's a concern that a lot of Democrats have. That is very real in their mind because of what happened in 2020 when all kinds of frivolous lawsuits were launched.
JENNINGS: Good question. I don't, I don't know the contours of all, and, you know, different states have different, you know, ballot access laws. And I acknowledge though, it could be sticky out there if you found certain places that had rules that allowed you to do that, why wouldn't, why shouldn't the Republicans do everything they can do to advantage themselves?
So, you'll have a two-pronged thing going on, you know, trying to get everybody to follow the laws and the rules on the one hand, and on the other hand, arguing something very simple, Kamala Harris is Joe Biden. Everything you hate about Joe Biden, inflation, immigration, you know, our standing in the world, whatever, she's been right there And she's also been the chief person covering up just how bad off he really is. It'll be the --
PHILLIP: During the RNC during this week, I ran into Chris LaCivita and I asked this of him and he didn't answer. He's like I'm not going to answer that question.
FINNEY: Well, they're holding --
STELTER: that sounds like a yes.
FINNEY: He's already said they will. And, look, she was making some really important points, a couple things that all these members who are talking actually haven't looked at the rules and don't realize a couple things legally, the $260 million that the campaign is sitting on. If it's not Joe Biden or Kamala Harris on the ticket, name your candidate, does not automatically get that money. If you have a different name on the ballot, Republicans have already said they will sue for ballot access. So, do we want to spend September and October trying to fight to get some random person --
JENNINGS: Yes.
FINNEY: -- who is not fit -- yes, you do. Yes, you do. But also, you know, there's not anybody else who's been tested, right? I mean, all these other names that people are floating, great people. The cleave (ph) lights of running for president and the scrutiny and the money being spent by the right wing is nothing like even running for statewide office.
But nobody is thinking about that when they're sort of having this fantasy football league about, you know, different potential folks, not to mention if Joe Biden decides, we don't know who he's going to decide, she is also the sitting vice president who has been doing the job and that is the best preparation, as J.D. Vance is going to learn, as he gets up to speed, about what the job he is hoping for will be. That's the best prep.
PHILLIP: All right, everyone, stand by. As Karen just mentioned, we're going to dive into what an open convention would actually look like for Democrats.
Plus, just in, President Biden responding to Trump's RNC speech with a Hannibal Lecter reference.
And speaking of that speech, as Donald Trump continues to say that he doesn't know anyone running Project 2025, well, he just declared one of its authors will get a big job in his White House if he's re- elected.
This is NewsNight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:19:13]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS LACIVITA, TRUMP CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISER: It's complete and utter bullshit for any reporter to write that this is the way it is.
And the president has made it clear, these people do not speak for him. They do not speak for the campaign. They're a pain in the ass.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Yes, that was one of Donald Trump's top advisers at his campaign, apparently sick of his candidate being connected to Project 2025, the outline by conservatives to fundamentally change American life, society, the way the government works if Donald Trump wins.
But the problem is that no matter how hard the campaign tries to distance himself from Project 2025, their own candidate likes to blurt things out like this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT, 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The invasion at our southern border, we will stop it and we will stop it quickly. You heard Tom Holman yesterday.
[22:20:00]
Tom Holman, put him in charge and just sit back and watch.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Well, guess who Tom Holman is? Well, he did serve Trump as an immigration enforcement and customs chief, which includes the family separation policy. But that's not all. Holman is also one of the main contributors to Project 2025.
My panel is back along with Natasha Alford, who's joining us. Scott, why do they keep doing this? Are they trying to just pull the wool over people's eyes?
JENNINGS: Why does who keep doing what?
PHILLIP: The campaign keep pretending like they don't know anything about Project 2025?
JENNINGS: Because the campaign and the Republican National Committee has its own platform, which they put out this week. Chris LaCivita is the top person on this campaign. I was sitting in the front row of that event when he said that. He also tweeted today that he was going to throw this Project 2025 bag out the airplane window, because it's a bag full of S-H-I-T.
And so --
PHILLIP: Since folks at home don't know what you're talking about, somebody on a plane going or RNC had this duffel bag emblazoned with Project 2025, because Project 2025 devotees were all over the RNC this week.
JENNINGS: Yes.
SIMMONS: And it's the Heritage Foundation. And this is one of the most premier conservative organizations in the country that comes up with ideas.
JENNINGS: The campaign has made perfectly clear that Trump has his own agenda and that he will not subjugate himself to any outside group. But if you want to play this game and if the Democratic nominee, whoever you all decide that's going to be, wants to own the crazy ideas of every think tank and left wing looney tunes in the country I'm happy to play that game. But I don't I don't think you want to go down that road and own every tax increase and defund the police or whatever, but that's essentially what you're arguing. NATASHA ALFORD, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think it's -- yes, I mean, I think it's more than that. CNN reported that there were 140 names, right, of folks who were associated with Donald Trump who were also tied to Project 2025. And it's like, you are what you eat. You are the people that you surround yourself with. And I think this is political. Donald Trump knows that it's deeply unpopular, that people are concerned about it, that they don't agree with these ideas, they don't represent where the majority of Americans are right now. And so for political reasons he wants to distance himself, even though we know there are connections.
PHILLIP: Okay. So, I want to talk about this speech from last night, Brian, because It went on for 90 minutes. It's the longest convention speech by a Republican in modern American history, but we got the numbers about the viewership, 25.4 million viewers across all the networks. Most people, though, didn't get past 15 minutes.
STELTER: A little bit more than 15 minutes, but, yes, the drop off was dramatic as the hour-and-a-half went along. A lot of people just wanted to watch their late night comics by midnight, but those were all preempted by Trump.
I'm glad that he had all those adlibs, though. I'm glad he mentioned Tom Homan. I'm glad that he went on for 90 minutes. We learned a lot more from him than we would have if he had just stuck to that boring script, no offense, Scott, but the 3,000 word script.
JENNINGS: I didn't write it. You're more MAGA than I am right now, Brian.
STELTER: I thought, you know, what was great about last night is everybody got to go to a Trump rally. Everybody who wants to attend was able to attend in primetime because that's what he was doing. He was performing a Trump rally just a little bit more quietly than usual.
ALFORD: And the whole unity thing theme completely undercut his own message, right? You start off saying that you want the country to come together, that it's time for us to let go of petty division. And then you call Nancy Pelosi crazy and you sort of take shots at different people. He is the same -- fundamentally the same person, even with the, you know, really emotional beginning where he talks about surviving, I think people saw that this is the same.
JENNINGS: I love you, guys. You guys are like, Donald, can you believe he gave a 90-minute speech? Joe Biden can't even walk up the stairs on Air Force One. You think he can stand there and give a 90-minute speech?
AFLORD: I would rather substance than superficiality.
SIMMONS: Here's what brings us all back to a place that I think many of us don't want to go back to when he was president of the United States. The campaign for the entire day kept saying how he wasn't going to Biden. This is going to be super positive. And then he's like, okay, I'll talk about Joe Biden. JENNINGS: One time. One time, Jamal.
SIMMONS: He's unstoppable. He can't stop himself. This is the thing. Jay Z has a line. You was who you was before you got here. This is the thing about Donald Trump. He cannot change. And I think we're all going to -- and what this did last night is it reminded us of what it's like when you have somebody on stage and who really is going to a place that none of us want to be.
JENNINGS: Listen, I think what Brian said about the viewership is vital because. The best part of the speech was the retelling of the shooting, and going through the --
STELTER: And that was the peak, the audience peak.
JENNINGS: It was riveting and having the jacket and the helmet. I thought that was the most riveting part. I thought the end was good too, but it's interesting, I hadn't heard the viewership numbers. So, basically what you're saying is most people saw him retelling the shooting, which for Trump is probably the best outcome from his speech.
STELTER: But do we believe him when he says he'll never tell the story again? I don't find that believable. I think he is going to want to talk about this again and again, the way he describes the blood. He wants that blood and gore to be in people's faces.
PHILLIP: So, the other thing that happened just tonight, the Biden campaign tweeted out a rebuttal of Donald Trump's speech from last night.
[22:25:01]
It's a tweet storm. That's what we used to call it back in the day, a tweet storm. It ends with, Donald, Hannibal Lecter is not real and he's a cannibal.
JENNINGS: Wait, whoa, hold on. Joe Biden is tweeting about cannibals? Now see, unfortunately, we got both campaigns are interested in cannibals. Trump is interested in fictional ones, but Biden said cannibals ate his uncle. He's got real cannibals. Trump's only got fictional cannibals. I'm just saying, if you pick your poison here on the camera.
SIMMONS: I mean, both of them are fictional cannibals.
PHILLIP: You we were saying?
SIMMONS: The reality is, as we watched the entire thing unfold this week, I mean, we saw some things that are very concerning. One, America first too often seems like America only, right. And for the country to be strong, they say they want to be strong, but strong for what purpose? Is it strong so that we can deny the truth to our children and hide books and keep them from learning the true facts of American history? Are we trying to have these camps, we're going to kick everybody out of the country that we don't like? Are we going to get rid of our allies and so we stand alone or make friends with North Korea and with these dictators around the world? It just seems to me that the questions that were brought up in this campaign --
PHILLIP: I'm going to let you off the hook for just a second. It does raise an interesting question about the agenda that Donald Trump put on the table in his speech seemed to be kind of like, you know, the P.G. version of what he's been talking about the rest of the time on the campaign trail. Everything kind of softened around the edges. It seems a little bit divorced from the agenda that he's been putting forward. It's a lot harsher, kicking people, his enemies out of the federal government, creating concentration camps basically to deport immigrants. There's all kinds of stuff that he's been talking about that didn't get mentioned last night. It almost feels like a diversion.
ALFORD: Well, abortion, which is bringing so many women out, even those who are on the other side of different parties, right, who won't come out and say it, this is their lives, this is their body on the line, and they don't want the government dictating it to them. And you have a party that knows it's unpopular, and all of a sudden, they're really quiet about what they've been saying they're going to do. And so women are fed up. And they know that this is a political liability and that's why they don't want to talk about it.
But I think it's important that we not see the sort of sweetness in Donald Trump's speech, whatever was written for him that allowed him to seem subdued last night and forget who he was, who he's been and what he says he's going to do, which is something that is going to change American democracy, immunity, all of these things that really fundamentally changed the way the government works. We have to talk about those stakes as much as we talk about his confidence and his energy.
PHILLIP: Let me ask you one last thing, Scott, just -- this is a little bit, put taking a step back from the politics for a second. I wonder what you think as somebody -- I sat on the table with you all week and you really enjoyed the convention. I know you really enjoyed the convention. But I'm wondering, are you -- do you still have concerns about Trump's character, his demeanor, his morals and ethics and how he would lead in the office, not just the policies, but how he would lead?
JENNINGS: Well, look, I mean, I have a healthy dose of skepticism of all politicians. I mean, yes, I'm skeptical of a lot of people, but I am more skeptical right now of what I have learned about Joe Biden in the last few weeks than I am about anything involving Donald Trump, the cover-up that's gone on with his condition, the way they're -- I mean, we don't really know how the government's being run right now. And I'm very, very skeptical and disdainful of the results of the Biden agenda and where it's put the country right now.
So, I guess I'm going to reflect what most Republicans in the country would tell you, which is whatever thing about Donald Trump, individual thing that I may not like or may make me uncomfortable, it pales in comparison to the concerns that I have about the condition of the country under Joe Biden, and a Republican would tell you, more than happy to support the ticket.
STELTER: I would love to hear Biden push back on you, but all the campaign can do is publish a tweet storm. And that's the fundamental problem.
ALFORD: No, guys, this is serious. We are talking about the president is more than just the person who stands at the podium. We're talking about teams of people that work with him. This is not funny.
STELTER: I don't see any Biden campaign officials coming on CNN tonight. I saw one interview today on some channel. It was softball.
ALFORD: Let people do their job. If Kamala Harris hadn't been tied up for years, sort of put to the side and allowed to lead and allowed to show.
JENNINGS: Who did that to her?
ALFORD: And allowed to show -- but here's the thing.
JENNINGS: Who can put Kamala on a corner.
ALFORD: A couple of bad interviews, right? And that was a mistake that Democrats are going to learn from.
JENNINGS: Who made it? Who made the mistake? I just want to hear you say who made the mistake. Who made the mistake?
ALFORD: But this is the point. This happens in your party too. This happens in your party too. This is sexism, right?
JENNINGS: Who did it to her?
ALFORD: This is allowing somebody to take the fall when things aren't going well.
[22:30:02]
And that happens regardless of party. So, you guys have something to learn because I saw your RNC and it wasn't very different, okay? You're a step forward because we have --.
JENNINGS: Listen. Jamal, you were there.
SIMMONS: Yeah, I was there.
JENNINGS: Who put Kamala in the corner?
SIMMONS: Nobody put her in a corner. The woman works every day. She travels.
JENNINGS: That's what she -- that's what she said.
SIMMONS: She travels three times a week.
JENNINGS: She said that. SIMMONS: But nobody paid attention to what Pence did every day.
JENNINGS: Oh my gosh.
UNKNOWN: And Pence, too. I didn't see him at the convention.
ALFORD: And Pence is not there because --
SIMMONS: I don't think it's very unfair to hold her to a standard that will not hold the other vice presidents there.
PHILLIP: So, now, but it's an interesting -- it's an interesting point on all fronts, guys, thank you very much. Stand by for us. Still got a little bit more left. Coming up, I'll talk to a lawmaker who says Biden should stay in the presidential race despite the calls to leave. Congressman Adriano Espaillat joins me next and also, we're going to discuss -- what should you do when you're inside of the voting booth if you don't like either Biden or Trump?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOY BEHAR, "THE VIEW" CO-HOST: Do you have to vote?
CHRIS CHRISTIE, FORMER U.S ATTORNEY FOR THE DISTRICT OF NEW JERSEY: Do the job -- no, I'm going vote down ticket. I don't have to vote.
UNKNOWN: Yes, you do.
UNKNOWN: You cannot throw away your vote.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:35:31]
PHILLIP: What are you supposed to do if you don't like Donald Trump or President Biden? In the voting booth, what trigger are you going to pull? Chris Christie got an earful when he answered that question on "The View".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: I know you're not voting for Trump. Would you vote for Democrat ticket?
CHRISTIE: I'm not voting for either. I'm just not. I can't. One guy is completely mentally in college.
BEHAR: But you have to vote.
CHRISTIE: No, I'm going to vote down ticket. I don't have to vote.
UNKNOWN: Yes, you do.
SUNNY HOSTIN, "THE VIEW" CO-HOST: You cannot throw away your vote. I asked you this the last time you were on, Chris, and you're going to sit this one out?
CHRISTIE: I disagree with you.
ANA NAVARRO, "THE VIEW" CO-HOST: Don't you think it's rich for you to tell the Democrats that they've got to get rid of their nominee when you're not willing to vote for any of their nominee?
UNKNOWN: Well, he' also going to wait and see.
CHRISTIE: I didn't say that. Wait a second. You just asked me if I won't vote for now. Biden is the nominee. Let me see what the Democrats do.
NAVARRO: This is not the time to sit it out, Governor.
CHRISTIE: I'm willing to consider -- I'm willing to consider anybody who presents himself as someone who will make the country better.
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: You gotta love Chris Christie, always willing to head right into -- into the fire. I mean, I have to say I'm a little surprised, Brian, to hear him say he wouldn't vote at all. I mean, are you?
STELTER: Because he's a politician, because he's a veteran, because he's in the game.
PHILLIP: Yeah, and also because he's one of the ones who's making the argument that this is a choice. It's one or the other.
STELTER: You know, maybe America should have compulsory voting, right? Lots of countries do. Most of South America has compulsory voting. Australia, et cetera. To me, though, that goes against the freedom ethos of the country. Part of America's freedom is that you have the freedom not to be involved at all, not to engage, to tune out. to drop out.
And I think that's what we see over and over again is that people have dropped out they've tuned out. The Republican Convention was an attempt to appeal to more casual news consumers, people who don't really care about politics. I think that's why Kid Rock was probably on stage. But you know, Democrats will have a version of that next month also.
PHILLIP: And the other thing -- the other person who kind of stepped out into this arena is Spencer Cox. He's the governor of Utah, the Republican. He's been very skeptical of Donald Trump and last week, he told Kaitlan Collins, he wasn't going to vote for Trump. And today, he endorsed him. So, I mean something is happening here.
ALFORD: Yeah. there's such a disconnect. I cannot afford to not vote, right, to disengage. I'm a woman. I am a mother. You know, I'm a black woman. I'm Latina. I think about the attacks on DEI, the attacks on just learning history that we all as Americans learned and we're proud of, you know, the ways in which America has changed. We're even -- we're even cutting out the truth to make people feel more comfortable.
So, I can't afford to do that. I know that Chris Christie can. But I really resent that he speaks of Trump and Biden as if they are the same, right? These are two different choices and it's unfortunate that we don't even get to talk about Joe Biden's successes. And I think it's actually some of the media's fault because -
STELTER: Three and a half years of COVERAGE.
ALFORD: But we have people who don't even understand what's in the bills and that's because we're so focused on covering the fighting, the personalities, that people don't understand how these policies impact their lives. I think that that has to change.
PHILLIP: Voters who are disengaged --
SIMMONS: Yeah.
PHILLIP: Okay. Chris Christie is not even a disengaged voter. He's an engaged voter.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
PHILLIP: But for voters who are disengaged, how hard is it going to be to get people to decide -- to get up and do something as opposed to doing nothing, which is always the easier answer.\
SIMMONS: It is going to be hard to get them engaged. I mean, this is one of the challenges every four years that we have. How do you get people, you know, to actually come out and vote? I'll tell you one way you get them to come out and vote is to talk about how the candidates are going to change their lives going forward.
And I didn't -- I think, we spent in the -- we spent in the White House when I was there, and I think the campaign still spends too much time talking about Joe Biden's record for the last three and a half years. It's important. It's good.
But you got to talk about what you want to do for the next three or four years That's why people show up and vote. Elections aren't rewards for good. You have to promise people and show them there are evidence about what you're going to do. You got to show them what you're going to do next and that's how people go out and support you.
JENNINGS: Well, elections may not be rewards for good behavior but they are certainly punishments for bad. and when Joe Biden has approval rating in the mid 30s --
SIMMONS: That's not true because George W Bush had a horrible first term, got us enmeshed in Iraq and people voted for him anyway, even though --
JENNINGS: He did not -- he did not have an approval rating in the mid- 30s, Jamal, I hate to tell you.
SIMMONS: His approval rate was -- JENNINGS: Biden has, by far, the worst approval rating in the modern era of polling of any incumbent president seeking reelection.
[22:40:02]
That's number one. Number two, I think there's two different groups we're talking about and sometimes they get intertwined. One is the double hater -- people who vote in every election. But they don't like either choice. But then there's the truly disengaged, the person who may be voted one time in the last five years or didn't vote at all or is not even registered to vote.
If you look at the polling, that's where the Trump sweet spot is. The less participatory you are, the more skeptical you are of being engaged in civics at all, the more you like Trump. When you see some of these people at the convention, they're trying to put new people into the pool. The double haters, I don't know what you do about them. They're going to end up making a choice. But these civic disengagers, if you can get them in, it is a game-changer.
ALFORD: I think they're doing it with superficiality, right? Frankly, to see an Amber Rose, someone who -- what, her entire, like political foundation or approach changed all of a sudden, right? She once stood for women's rights. Now, she's voting for the candidate who's been accused of, you know, sexual assault. I mean these people are not serious, particularly Amber Rose.
STELTER: She's not serious?
ALFORD: She's not serious --
SIMMONS: She's not serious. She's not.
ALFORD: -- to black voters, right? And so, what does that say about how you see the voters that you pick such people to engage with them on a superficial --
JENNINGS: I'll answer it briefly which is, Donald Trump has said he wants to have a big tent party with a lot of a big conversation with a lot of diverse voices and I wouldn't tell somebody with 24 million Instagram followers. They're not serious.
PHILLIP: All right, thank you all very much. Coming up next. Tonight, President Biden is reportedly seething at Nancy Pelosi and thinks that for his former running mate Barack Obama is the puppet master behind the scenes of it all. Congressman Adriana Espaillat joins me. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:46:05]
PHILLIP: We have more now on the calls for President Biden to leave the presidential race. We just talked about Democrats like Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez warning that an open Democratic National Convention next month could be messy, and that's saying it lightly. CNN's Brian Todd has much more on what exactly would happen if Biden were to step aside.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Abby, if the president does leave the race, it would almost certainly have to be his decision to bow out voluntarily. If he does that, it would most likely be before the Democratic National Convention begins on August 19th. And at that point, the process for replacing him on the ticket gets a little bit messy.
The primaries and caucuses are over. The delegates have been selected and the Democratic Party cannot select new delegates. So, the convention could turn into a free for all. If Biden is out of the race when the convention starts, names of replacements will be put forward at the convention and the roughly 3900 Democratic delegates from across the country would decide who to vote for as the nominee.
Biden won almost all of those 3900 delegates, but he would not have control over who they vote for to replace him. He can endorse a candidate but the delegates can vote for whoever they want. In the end, according to Democratic Party rules experts, about 2000 out of the 3900 delegates would have to vote for a nominee in a roll call vote for that person to win.
But there are also additional so-called super delegates, about 700 of them who could also be allowed to join in the voting. They're comprised of party insiders and elected officials. So, Abby, there is a serious chance of some real party intrigue at the Democratic Convention if President Biden steps away before them.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIP: Brian Todd, thank you very much for that. And joining me now in the studio is Congressman Adriano Espaillat. He remains firmly behind President Biden --
REP. ADRIANO ESPAILLAT (D-NY): Yes.
PHILLIP: - as of tonight, as far as I'm aware. But I wonder, is there any Democrat, any person in public life who could convince you that it was time for President Biden to step aside? Would it -- I mean Nancy Pelosi has already made her views pretty clear. If Barack Obama were to come out, would that change your view?
ESPAILLAT: President Biden can convince me that he's It's time for him to step away because the delegates have Voted for him and we should honor that -- the opinion of the hundreds if not thousands of delegates across the country. That's the basis, the matrix of democracy.
And so, we should not violate that trust that was placed at that time. He was fit then, I feel he's fit now. But if he decides not to do it, then I will back the other Democratic candidate.
PHILLIP: What do you make of the Speaker Emerita playing this behind- the-scenes role. Do you think that she should be doing that? ESPAILLAT: She is a leader and a great leader. I have the highest
respect for her. She is someone that has led us through very difficult times when Donald Trump was there. She let us then and she's still exerting some leadership and she has the right to do that and I will listen to her and her opinion will have an impact on what I decide to do. But I am a supporter of the president and I think that unless he's not fit to run for office, we should stick with him.
PHILLIP: When you say he's not fit, what do you mean by that? Like when you say "fit", means something different to everybody else? Well, what would that mean?
ESPAILLAT: Well, I'm not in a position to determine what that is. That has to be a medical doctor or someone that has --
PHILLIP: If a doctor were to say there were some condition that he had that --
ESPAILLAT: Or the president was to say that but right, now he's not and I'm sticking with --as I said before I'm sticking with Papa.
PHILLIP: So, this morning, the president's campaign manager Jen O'Malley Dillon, she came out and she acknowledged that there was some slipping in the polls happening.
[22:50:03]
But it's also clear that there's really one path for this president to win reelection. The Trump campaign, they believe they have more than 20. Does it concern you that it is such a narrow path for President Biden and he -- there's no question. He has less capacity to do the kinds of things today than he did even four years ago.
ESPAILLAT: And so does everybody else. That's the nature of it. But I tell you something, Abby. I think that as Democrats, we could beat Donald Trump. And I saw what happened yesterday at the convention, and you know, I think he's slipping. I think we could beat Donald Trump. I am confident.
You know, elections are about the future but you would -- you run on your record. And the record of Democrats is an exemplary record. I think we could beat Donald Trump and I think we need to beat Donald Trump, yes, to save democracy. Some people will have a problem with saying that but I don't.
I represent Harlem, East Harlem and Washington Heights in the Bronx. I know what that means for my community. So, let's stick with him and if he decides not to do that, we'll be fully behind with somebody else. But right now, switching horses in the middle of the river leads to only one thing -- you drown at the shore.
PHILLIP: All right, stand by for me because we have some breaking news tonight. It's incredibly sad news. Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee, a 30-year fixture in the United States Congress -- she once led the Congressional Black Caucus. We have learned tonight that she has died. She was 74 years old. Jackson Lee just last month revealed that she had been diagnosed with
pancreatic cancer. She was undergoing treatment. And in announcing the diagnosis, the congresswoman said this, "The road ahead will not be easy, but I stand in faith that God will strengthen me."
Jackson Lee first rose to prominence in 1989 winning an at-large bid to the House -- Houston City Council. Her career touched virtually every human rights issue marked by work on police reform and helping enshrine Juneteenth as a federal holiday congressman. She's your colleague in the House of Representatives. Your thoughts tonight.
ESPAILLAT: Juneteenth reparations, a national hero. And you know, she ran for mayor. I think she was trying to come. You know, she may have been trying to come home. But she will be forever in our hearts no matter where we are at home.
PHILLIP: Yeah, it is a sad moment and also just tragic to see cancer once again taking this life too soon. Congressman Adriano Espaillat, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
ESPAILLAT: Thank you.
PHILLIP: And we'll be back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:57:39]
PHILLIP: The assassination attempt against Donald Trump is only the latest incident of political violence in America. Four U.S. presidents were assassinated in office. Countless others, lawmakers and civilians alike, they fall in victim to either targeted attacks or mass shootings for political reasons.
This week on "The Whole Story with Anderson Cooper", CNN's Sara Sidner examines the history of these attacks and the motivations behind them. She spoke with people whose families have been torn apart by this kind of violence including Patrick Kennedy and Martin Luther King, the third.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN (voice-over): Senator Kennedy was involved in a shooting.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): The last report he was hit twice in the head once in the hip.
TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Losing King and Robert Kennedy in the same season was bad enough, but it reminded Americans of JFK's assassination less than five years before.
PATRICK J. KENNEDY (D), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FOR RHODE ISLAND: I was just a baby when my uncle Bobby was killed, but I just know what a loss it was not only for their children, my cousins, but a loss for everybody that knew them and knew how much they wanted to change the world. They had so much promise and so much inspiration and hope as part of their whole message.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It's an all-new episode of "The Whole Story with Anderson Cooper" and it airs this Sunday at 10 P.M. Eastern and Pacific, only right here on CNN. And thank you very much for watching "NewsNight". "Laura Coates Live", it starts right now.
LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR: Well, we have some very sad news to pass along tonight. Sheila Jackson Lee, a Democratic congresswoman from Texas has passed away this evening. You remember she had just announced that she was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer after serving for more than 30 years in Congress.
Cancer is such a vicious and terrible disease. My own grandmother passed away from pancreatic cancer and the devastation that it is left for so many families, far too many families is just unimaginable. On a personal note, aside from the professionalism that she has always shown, she was a woman I had long admired --
