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CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip
Harris Gets Aggressive On Trump In Fox News Interview; Fox News Barely Mentions Economy In Harris Interview; Debate Over Economy Intensifies 20 Days Before Election; "NewsNight" Discusses Presidential Candidates' Policies; Obama Strikes A National Nerve With His Comment On Black Men When He Said This About Black Men. Aired 10- 11p ET
Aired October 16, 2024 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Tonight, Wednesday night lights.
KAMALA HARRIS, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: People are frankly exhausted of, Bret.
BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: More than 70 percent of people --
PHILLIP: Kamala Harris dares to go where Democrats usually don't, for a telling sit-down with Fox.
Plus, parroting lies, Donald Trump says he was just repeating what others told him about Haitian migrants while the nominee dances around a big question on deportations.
And after an actor publicly criticized Barack Obama's lecture to black men, the former president gives him a ring. Hear what happened next.
Live at the table, Kara Swisher, Scott Jennings, Coleman Hughes, and Nayyera Haq with special guest, Actor Wendell Pierce, and a debate between Kevin O'Leary and Catherine Rampell.
With 20 days to go, Americans with different perspectives aren't talking to each other, but here they do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILLIP (on camera): I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Let's get right to what America is talking about. Was that worth it? Tonight, Kamala Harris joined Fox News' Bret Baier for an interview and it turned contentious pretty quickly. One of the most fiery moments happened right after Baier played a clip of Trump talking about, quote, the enemy from within.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS: With all due respect, that clip was not what he has been saying about the enemy within that he has repeated when he's speaking about the American people. That's not what you just showed.
BAIER: Well, he was asked about that specific --
HARRIS: No, no, no, that's not what you just showed, in all fairness and respect to you.
BAIER: No, no, no, I'm telling you that was the question that we asked him.
HARRIS: You didn't show that, and here's the bottom line. He has repeated it many times, and you and I both know that. And you and I both know that he has talked about turning the American military on the American people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It was a strange moment, because in that same interview, Trump did say -- you know, he talked about the enemy from within, he talked about who he was talking about. Bret Baier didn't play it, and Harris called him out for it. And that moment, to me, kind of crystallized these two were just going to be going at it for this entire 27-minute interview.
KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, I thought so. I thought it was a good interview, actually. I thought Bret did a good job. I know a lot of people said he was parroting Republican talking points, but he had to be tough with her on that network. And she came with it too, she brought it too, which I thought was good.
You know, there's a way to do those Fox interviews, like Pete Buttigieg is sort of charming and disarming, and she just went in with her prosecutor personality. I thought it served her well here.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I thought Bret did an excellent job. I thought he was pretty straightforward. He asked her some questions that she had recently gotten, say, on 60 Minutes. I thought the most important exchanges for voters will be around immigration. And, again, I think she came up empty on that tonight. He pressed her repeatedly on what they did at the beginning of the Biden- Harris administration and she showed no humility, whatsoever, and continues to plow forward like it never happened. And I just think continuing to have no answer for that is not serving her well.
PHILLIP: Speaking of immigration, I want to play -- this is literally how this interview started. And it's interesting. Listen to it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAIER: How many illegal immigrants would you estimate your administration has released into the country over the last three and a half years?
HARRIS: Well, I'm glad you raised the issue of immigration because I agree with you, it is a topic of discussion that people want to rightly have. And, you know what I'm going to talk about.
BAIER: Yes. But just a number? Do you think it's 1 million, 3 million?
HARRIS: Bret, let's just get to the point, okay? The point is that we have a broken immigration system that needs to be repaired.
BAIER: So, your Homeland Security secretary said that 85 percent of apprehensions --
HARRIS: I'm not finished. We have an immigration system --
BAIER: We have rough estimate of 6 million people have been released into the country. And let me just finish, I'll get to the question, I promise you.
HARRIS: I was beginning to answer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: That's how it went. That's how it started. I want to bring in now someone joining us in our fifth seat virtually, former Fox Host Geraldo Rivera, who just endorsed Vice President Harris. Geraldo, good to see you. What did you make of that way of starting the interview? And also just, you know, five words from Harris, five words from Brett Baier, they really couldn't even get into a rhythm of an answer there. What did you make of that?
[22:05:00]
GERALDO RIVERA, JOURNALIST: Oh, I think you had the best moment for Vice President Harris and the worst moment just in the last couple of minutes. Her best moment was when she busted Fox's chops for running, you know, a clip about the enemy within, which was not about the enemy within. It was much more benign for the former president who, you know, has been crazy, talking crazy about subversives within the, within the government. So, she really -- she did well to point that out.
What she did very poorly, it seems to me, Abby, is how in the world where everybody in this whole country knows that immigration is now the issue. It is the issue of the moment. Maybe it won't be three weeks from now. Maybe it will be. But for right now, immigration is the issue. How could she not be prepared for Bret Baier showing the photographs of the, of the tragic victims of illegal immigrant criminals? She should have an answer for that and answer other than, oh, you know, it's awful, and, you know, it deserves some, some, some real substantive thought.
For instance, here, let me just read you one quick sentence. This is from Jason Riley, the father of Laken Riley, one of the victims that was portrayed. And it's about how the memory of their loved ones are being exploited. This is from Jason Riley, Laken's father. I think it's being used politically to get those votes. It makes me angry. I feel like they're using my daughter's name. And she was much better than that. And she should be raised up for the person that she is. She was an angel. Why couldn't Kamala Harris say something like that, that humanized her concern for the loss, and then called out those who would exploit it?
PHILLIP: Yes. It is an interesting point, Nayyera. I mean, I think first of all, she gets this question every single time that anybody comes to her with a microphone. And the default to, well, Trump killed the immigration bill, that honestly doesn't seem to be working.
NAYYERA HAQ, FORMER OBAMA WHITE HOUSE SENIOR DIRECTOR: For the folks who immigration is their number one issue, and Fox has certainly been a part of that message machine, and that's their number one issue right now, that's not a movable voter at this moment. People have made up their mind already. It's 20 days before an election.
Her going on Fox News is not about changing people's minds about how they feel about voting based on immigration. It's about showing people that she can be tough, she is a leader, and that she is willing to go in the lion's den and not roll over and get her belly scratched or try to play by some other rules of whatever the game is on whatever bias network, you know, we can talk about at the moment. She is showing that she's taking the fight and she's going to handle it like a prosecutor. She's going to prosecute her case as a leader.
Fox News is known to be partisan, same as some other networks out there. And to go there is really for both the audiences that already have their minds made up to show them that you can be a leader.
PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, toughness was I think part of what she needed to do tonight. And, I mean, if anything else, I mean she seemed to show she could take the back and forth.
COLEMAN HUGHES, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, she's always been tough and it's good that she showed that. But part of looking tough and looking presidential is also having good answers to the questions everyone's thinking about.
Now, if you've been paying attention to immigration the past four years, you know that talking about Trump's thwarting of the immigration bill is starting the story in the third act. And the first two acts were Biden and Harris really reversing tons of Trump policies and not handling the border very well. So, you have to have some answer to that criticism. And I was expecting something better than just focusing on the third act.
SWISHER: And I would -- yesterday at the economic thing, there were nonsensical answers. So, I think you're right, it's actually going there and showing she can do it. My mom's a big Fox News -- she liked it. She's like, oh, she's pretty tough. That's the message she -- she's not going to vote for it, necessarily. And that's the key thing. She came here, she's talking to me, I see her, and that's what they don't see.
PHILLIP: People actually need to hear her answer the Fox criticism, I mean, because that's what a lot of people are hearing, right? They need to know that she's going to actually take the question, I think is what --
JENNINGS: Truthfully, I'm less interested in participation ribbons here. I mean, I feel like every time she does one of these interviews, we sort of end up defaulting to, well, at least she tried, you know? I just don't think that's good enough for running for president of the United States.
SWISHER: Okay. But how did Trump do economic --
JENNINGS: I thought he did fine. How did she do? How did she do?
SWISHER: You would never say he didn't do well. Tell me.
JENNINGS: I have repeatedly said he has no --
SWISHER: No. She did --
JENNINGS: Did I not criticize him on the NABJ --
SWISHER: Or the dancing?
JENNINGS: -- on this show? Did I or did I not? So, you're wrong. And you can admit it. It's fine.
PHILLIP: Did you watch him at the economic club?
JENNINGS: I thought he was fine. I thought it worked out.
SWISHER: He literally was nonsensical.
PHILLIP: First of all, he did not --
JENNINGS: you could say, you could disagree with me about I thought it was --
[22:10:00]
PHILLIP: And also he repeatedly attacked his interviewer, I mean, all of those things. I mean, if you saw -- if Kamala Harris, instead of maybe evading the question, attacked Bret Baier and said, you're biased and you're wrong and, you know --
JENNINGS: Well, she repeatedly went back to the, I'm speaking, I'm speaking, let me finish, let me finish. Look, she spent a huge percentage of her time today meandering through these long winded wind ups and prepositional phrases only to get to these unsatisfactory answers. It's exactly what happened on 60 Minutes. And, frankly, it's what happened at the debate when she won't answer the specific questions she's asked. It doesn't satisfy me.
Now, look, I'm geared against her. Obviously, I'm a conservative.
PHILLIP: Yes, I don't know there's a lot to satisfy, Scott.
JENNINGS: Yes. But it's not -- it's just not -- to me, it's not satisfactory.
Let me bring in Geraldo because he's waiting patiently for us over there. I mean, Geraldo, I mean, what do you think about that? I mean, does she get credit and is that really what this is about, or did she blank on some answers that need more substance? And, frankly, I mean, I was expecting the interview to have more substance, in general, more a range of questions, but it was largely about immigration.
RIVERA: And as it will be, I think, for the next three weeks, Abby. She did get out that the former president is unstable, unfit and dangerous, which I thought was as clear as you can have as an exclamatory statement. She laid that out. She wasn't afraid to challenge Bret. So, I think that she gets props for that. But they spoke over each other in a way that I thought did not communicate anything other than the hostility of the venue.
And, you know, she -- but I still come back to the point I started with. There should be more flexibility. And Scott is making the point here. There should be more flexibility. There should be more -- a better grasp of answers, even if they are pre-recorded in your brain, at least you could present them in a way that has a beginning, a middle, and an end.
PHILLIP: I'm curious what you think about one more thing, Geraldo.
RIVERA: There's a confidence lacking.
PHILLIP: Let me ask you, I mean, when she was asked again in this interview, as she has been in several interviews, about what she would do differently from President Biden, what did you make of her answer?
RIVERA: I don't like it at all. I remember when Al Gore distanced Bill Clinton as if he was like a stinky rag in 2000, and I think it cost Al Gore the election of 2000. I think that Biden had a pretty good presidency. Inflation is down, unemployment is down. How could you not embrace -- you know, the stock market is up. There's a new messenger in town who's going to be more inclusive. Where's the optimism?
It just seems to me that there's a -- this is the big leagues. This is the 11th hour. It just seems to me that you've got to bring your A game and you've got to have -- you know, you can't make, you know, someone a different personality, but you can give them a briefing where they have answers and the way she was prepared for the debate. She went into the Fox News interview, it seems to me, with knowing that she was going to get scolded by the fifth grade teacher and that she was going to do her best, to hold her own. But it didn't seem that the answers to me were expansive enough or presidential enough. Let me put it that way.
PHILLIP: Interesting. That's going to be Geraldo's hot take here on the show to embrace the Biden presidency and legacy in these last three weeks of the election. Geraldo Rivera, thank you very much for joining us. Everyone else hang tight for us.
Coming up next here, the topic barely mentioned during this interview when three special guests are joining us at this table.
Plus, in his final campaign stretch, Donald Trump is spending his time doubling down on lies about migrants, saying that they eat more than just pets. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:15:00]
PHILLIP: Topic not found. If you did a search of the Harris interview transcript, you would not find a whole lot about the issue the voters say is the number one thing to them, the economy.
Joining us at the table, Catherine Rampell, Kevin O'Leary, and in our fifth seat, Tony-nominated star Wendell Pierce, who is currently starring in the hit CBS series, Elsbeth. Its second season, by the way, starts tomorrow night.
But I do want to start on the economy. We were talking actually just now about this Bloomberg interview that Trump did. It's actually the second one of these economic club interviews. And I keep waiting to hear for like a plan, but what I keep hearing is this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT, 2024 PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: What am I going to do? Negotiate with Mexico, with China? You're not going to get anything from that. I said I'm going to put a 100, 200, or 300, I'm going to put the highest tariff in history. Meaning, I'm going to stop them from ever selling a car into the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, I mean, is that the plan? Like is that it, the whole thing?
CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN ECONOMICS COMMENTATOR: I mean, he did negotiate with Mexico and with China and had deals with both. And he's now pretty mad about the actual binding deal that we have with Mexico. That's the USMCA, which replaced NAFTA, that he negotiated and is now critical of. He forgets who was responsible for it. And with China, you know, he had sort of a handshake deal that never materialized into anything useful, and so tariffs are still in place.
I don't really understand why he keeps going back to this well of more and more and more tariffs.
KEVIN O'LEARY, CHAIRMAN, O'LEARY VENTURES: Let me explain why. Let's take China. Let's take an example that every American understands TikTok.
[22:20:01]
Everybody knows TikTok. American people made a decision in Congress to ban it on midnight, Jan. 19th. The supreme leader of China said, no, we're going to use your court systems to litigate the American people so that doesn't happen. I can't do that in China. The supreme leader would never let me do that. I can't protect my I.P. there. Chinese have been screwing my 45 businesses for 35 years.
I like the idea of going to war with China with tariffs to change behavior.
RAMPELL: But it didn't change behavior. All it did was hurt American companies.
O'LEARY: Because we had weak leadership that doesn't know how to implement it.
RAMPELL: This is the same leadership. It was Trump who launched the trade war with --
O'LEARY: No, it's done with Biden, then it was Clinton saying, let's democratize China, let's show them democracy, and they'll play fair by WTO.
PHILLIP: But to Catherine's point, she's saying --
O'LEARY: It's time to raise tariffs on China to 400 percent.
RAMPELL: Wait, Trump, hang on a second. Trump already raised tariffs on China.
O'LEARY: Not enough, not enough.
RAMPELL: There have been many studies showing that U.S. companies and consumers are the ones who bore the cost.
O'LEARY: You know, I love the academic study. I'm doing real business in China. I'm actually doing business there.
RAMPELL: Yes.
O'LEARY: I'm actually working there. There's no academics in my company.
RAMPELL: Where do you think they buy their inputs from?
O'LEARY: Let me explain something to you.
RAMPELL: From China. It hurts American --
O'LEARY: The Chinese steal my I.P. They make the same product with the molds that I pay for there. They ship them into this country under a different brand. I don't like it anymore, and I've been trying to solve this for 30 years.
RAMPELL: If you tariff everything from China at 60 percent --
O'LEARY: There's no academic in my world. I'm doing business in --
RAMPELL: You're going to be paying more for the stuff you buy. You're going to be paying more for the stuff you buy. They knew even in the 1600s that you should not tariff inputs.
PHILLIP: Kevin, just her take --
O'LEARY: Let's just take a yoga mat. RAMPELL: Every American.
O'LEARY: Put a 400 percent tariff on a yoga mat, we'll make it in Vietnam, or make it India, or make it America. We won't buy anything from China.
RAMPELL: It will still be more expensive.
O'LEARY: He'll come to New York.
RAMPELL: It will be more expensive.
O'LEARY: No, no, no, no, no.
RAMPELL: Absolutely, it will be.
O'LEARY: We won't buy it from there.
PHILLIP: Wait.
RAMPELL: What do you mean we won't buy it from there?
PHILLIP: Hold on one second. Because I get the --
RAMPELL: Why are you raising the price?
PHILLIP: But, Kevin, you're having a different -- this is always what happens when we talk about Trump and the economy. People come on here.
O'LEARY: Nothing to do with Trump.
PHILLIP: Hang on. Hang on. No, no, no. Just, just hang on. People come on the show and then they defend a different economic policy than the one that Trump is advocating. He says in the clip, what am I going to do, negotiate with China or Mexico? He doesn't want to negotiate. He says you're not going to get from them, okay? That's what he says. He does not want to negotiate.
Also, the question I asked you is, where is the rest of the plan? Where is the rest of the economic plan?
O'LEARY: Well, why don't you just look at his track record for the last, you know, the term that he had, no inflation, fantastic wage growth. I mean, look, he actually sat in the seat at the White House.
RAMPELL: You forget 2020.
O'LEAQRY: You may not like what he did, you may not like him, but I don't remember 9 percent inflation when he was in office.
RAMPELL: I remember 18 percent unemployment. I mean, I remember --
JENNINGS: What happened when that was going on?
RAMPELL: Oh, a pandemic that he bungled.
JENNINGS: Are you saying he created the virus?
RAMPELL: No, but he absolutely made it worse.
JENNINGS: How?
RAMPELL: By lying about the risk, by telling people not to get tested, don't get tested.
JENNINGS: You're saying he should have personally cured the virus as the prologue?
RAMPELL: No, I'm saying he should have given his tests to Americans rather than to Putin.
PHILLIP: She did not say that. I mean, but, Scott -- okay.
JENNINGS: I mean, I'm sorry, this idea, this idea that somehow because Trump was the president, that the virus has political proclivities and decided to prolong itself has been crazy to me since --
RAMPELL: No. You don't think leadership mattered at all during that?
JENNINGS: No, I don't, actually.
RAMPELL: You don't?
JENNINGS: I don't believe the virus listens to politicians.
RAMPELL: You don't think it matters that Trump withheld various kinds of testing kits and PPE from states that were asking for it? And then he told them to go buy it themselves?
JENNINGS: You think that was the masks? Is that what you think?
RAMPELL: And then he outbid them for it, so they couldn't buy it. And then he sent it to Putin.
JENNINGS: No.
O'LEARY: He was talking about virus.
PHILLIP: I do want to get back to the economic question here.
JENNINGS: I mean, you are implicitly by pretending it didn't happen.
PHILLIP: Scott, Republicans keep saying that this election is about the economy. Now, I guess it's maybe also about immigration. But it is about the economy when you ask voters. And, again, like, I'm wondering, what else is Trump planning on doing and can he articulate it?
JENNINGS: Well, to me, I think it's a great question and it needs to be fleshed out. I think we should probably play the clip though of Harris from the Chicago Economic Club or do we not have it, because she didn't show up to talk. So, here's what I think. He's going to extend the tax cuts. He's going to rein in the federal government and the overburdensome regulatory state, which he can now do because of the Supreme Court. And he's going to take on these countries that screw American workers. That's the plan. And oh, by the way, he's going to crack down on immigration to the benefit of American workers.
RAMPELL: He's going to deport 20 million people, the people who pick your crops, the people who process your meat, the people who, you know, care for your grandmother, the people who serve all sorts of critical functions in this country? Yes, he's going to deport a lot of people, and that's going to worsen the economy.
[22:25:00]
In fact, there have been, I don't know, like a dozen different independent economic analyses from -- again, independent economic analyses from Goldman Sachs, AEI, Brookings, Nomera, Peterson Institute, like all of them fine.
JENNINGS: I know your argument. If you want to run on more illegal immigration as a Democrat, go ahead. I just don't think it's going to work in the election.
RAMPELL: He wants to deport 20 -- I'm not done with his I know what his economic policy is, because he has talked about it. He doesn't understand how any of it would work, but he has talked about it. He wants 10 percent global tariffs, which would worsen inflation. He wants to deport 20 million people, which would worsen inflation and reduce growth. He wants to politicize the Federal Reserve, which would worsen inflation. He wants to devalue the dollar, which would worsen inflation.
O'LEARY: And after all that --
RAMPELL: All of these things --
O'LEARY: -- the American population wants that economy back. What do you say to that?
RAMPELL: I say that we should be talking about what the policies are.
JENNINGS: They're just too dumb to understand.
WENDELL PIERCE, ACTOR IN CBS' ELSBETH: It's all about messaging.
RAMPELL: No, it's because we don't talk about it.
PIERCE: Because a lot of people don't understand, Kevin, what, what tariffs are. They see it as this great punishment to China that we're going to do. He says he's going to raise it up. He said today 2,000 percent tariffs on China.
But here's the thing. It punishes the American importer. The Chinese are paid -- once you pay for those moles, the Chinese have put that money in their pocket and then you are charged for the tariffs where you're bringing your moles in.
And then just one other point that he said --
O'LEARY: Moving back --
PIERCE: But one other point is he says that that's going to incentivize people to come back. That's pie in the sky. If I give 2000 percent tariffs on China, it's going to force all these people to come back. No, I'm for American jobs. And that's why I support, that's why I support Kamala Harris and I supported President Biden.
RAMPELL: Do you know what jobs Americans work in?
PIERCE: Because they brought manufacturing back when President Trump didn't. The tariffs that he's talking about is not going to incentivize anybody else to go, oh my goodness, I'm not going to want to pay those tariffs, so I'm going to build this plant here in America.
O'LEARY: I actually agree with you on tariffs with our European allies but not with China. because unfortunately I live in the real world and not all of you are doing business with China like I am. They cheat, they steal, they don't play by the level playing field.
PHILLIP: Well, I don't think they --
O'LEARY: But yet you're doing business there. You're doing business there.
RAMPELL: Are you going to invest in a business that makes all of the low value inputs that we buy from China? No, because they don't have any value add.
JENNINGS: Do you agree with the Biden tariffs on China?
RAMPELL: No. I've been very, very critical of those.
JENNINGS: So, since Harris is running on that, how do you view the difference between their postures?
RAMPELL: I think her tariffs, which are in fact a continuation of Biden tariffs, are dumb ideas. I think that we have many -- lots of evidence showing that Americans pay those. I think Trump's policies are even dumber.
PHILLIP: I want to be really clear here because I think that there's a little bit of a bait and switch going on. You're talking about just China. Trump is talking about across the board tariffs. He's talking about Europe. He's talking about Mexico. He's talking about Canada. He's talking about across the board tariffs.
He's also talking about a few other things. No taxes on tips, no taxes on overtime, no word on how that gets paid for, except that he says it's not a negotiating tactic because the money coming in from tariffs will pay for everything. SWISHER: Right, no. You know, it's interesting, Kevin, when she's saying things, you're actually willfully reducing it, don't you like American jobs? I don't think she ever said that for one, by the way, being willfully reductive about everything. I've got stuck back on your TikTok. No, but I'm just saying, I got stuck back on your TikTok example. I'm glad that we live in a country where this does get litigated. In China, they just do everything from the top down.
I was one of the early critics of TikTok being in this country for national security issues.
O'LEARY: To be clear, you're okay that the supreme leader will use our laws to litigate progress --
SWISHER: I think it's great that our country has a country where anybody with the First Amendment rules and they can go to court.
O'LEARY: We can't do that?
SWISHER: No, we can't, because it's China.
O'LEARY: You're okay with that?
SWISHER: I'm okay with that's their country.
O'LEARY: I'm not, not okay with it.
SWISHER: We're not going to make them into a country like ours. Our country is amazing in that TikTok can be go to court here.
O'LEARY: You don't want a level playing field?
RAMPELL: No. I think the issue is what's the mechanism between what you are proposing and the outcome you want.
O'LEARY: I simply want a level playing field.
RAMPELL: But that won't achieve a level playing field. All it will do is raise costs for American consumers.
O'LEARY: I'm not allowed to want a level playing field?
RAMPELL: You're allowed to want it. You need a strategy to get it.
O'LEARY: I have one.
RAMPELL: No, you don't.
O'LEARY: 400 percent tariffs on China.
PHILLIP: So, Kevin, if I'm hearing you correctly, this is all about your personal bottom line.
O'LEARY: And millions of investors like me.
PHILLIP: But just to be clear that you're a single issue voter on the issue of tariffs against China. Put it aside that Trump is not just talking about China. He's talking about the rest of the world. But that is the only thing that you care about and so you endorse the economic policy based on that one thing?
RAMPELL: My point is, even if that is the only thing he cares about, and that's fine, he's a voter, his vote counts, he won't get it through this policy.
[22:30:00]
Increasing tariffs to 400 percent on China plus 10 percent on everywhere else in the world will not get us the economic or political outcomes you are envisioning.
PHILLIP: Okay. So, let's --
PIERCE: It is presented as -- it is presented as a sort of punishment for that country but it's a punishment on the American investment.
RAMPBELL: Yes.
PIERCE: Because once you -- especially --
PHILLIP: I mean, American consumers --
PIERCE: Trump doesn't want a single car being sold in the United States from China, presumptively from other parts of the world.
RAMPBELL: What do you think that does to the cost, the price of cars?
O'LEARY: There are other people that make cars, by the way. The Germans make cars. The French make cars.
RAMPBELL: We're tariffing those, too.
O'LEARY: No, no, the point is --
PHILLIP: Yes, he wants to tariff those, too.
RAMPBELL: And the prices are going up. Go up.
O'LEARY: I was very specific.
RAMPBELL: You're a businessman.
O'LEARTY: I said, look, Mexico --
RAMPBELL: If your competition gets more expensive, what happens to your prices?
O'LEARY: -- Canada, Switzerland, France, these are our allies, and we have TIFs with them because they tariff us, too. China, we are in an economic war with. If you don't understand that, you should wake up and smell the roses because --
RAMPBELL: If you don't understand that your prescription will not get you the outcome you want --
O'LEARY: I guarantee you --
RAMPBELL: Then smell all the flowers in the garden.
O'LEARY: Let me handle China's 100 percent tax.
PHILLIP: It is amazing -- it is amazing to me, though.
O'LEARY: The Supreme Leader will be right where you're sitting in 48 hours working out a deal.
RAMPBELL: Why wasn't he there?
JENNINGS: I do agree with -- I think China is its own case. I mean, I think they are the worst actor. They are obviously our biggest global adversary and they are different than other countries we deal with.
PHILLIP: Yes --
JENNINGS: And I --and I appreciate what you said about TikTok because I mean obviously they do things to us and they do very bad things to people all over the world economically that has to be dealt with separately than everything else. It has to be dealt with.
RAMPBELL: Oh, oh, you know how to do it? You know how to do it? Have a coalition of our allies who gang up on China to set the rules of trade. Who did that? Barack Obama. Who killed that deal? Donald Trump.
O'LEARY: How did that work?
JENNINGS: Will it work? And then what are they doing now?
RAMPBELL: No, because they killed the deal.
JENNINGS: Why aren't they reigning?
O'LEARY: -- before they able to do.
RAMPBELL: Because we're -- because we're the largest economy in the world and we did not join this coalition of the willing. Paul Ryan was one of the great champions of this particular bill and couldn't get it through.
JENNINGS: Look, I--
PHILLIP: Look, I think we could leave it there because the facts are the facts on that one. Kevin, Catherine, thank you all very much. Everyone else, stick around because coming up next, Donald Trump, he's defending now, spreading those stories about Haitian migrants that were, in his mind, eating pets even when he's facing questions from voters at a Univision town hall. We're going to discuss it next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: Somebody told him. That is Trump's reason tonight for repeating a flagrant lie about migrants.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (R): I was just saying what was reported that's been reported and eating other things, too, that they're not supposed to be. But this is, all I do is report. I have not, I was there, I'm going to be there and we're going to take a look and I'll give you a full report when I do. But that's been in the newspapers and reported pretty broadly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Coleman and Nayyera are back with us. Scott, are you satisfied with that answer?
JENNINGS: No.
PHILLIP: It's false.
JENNINGS: No, I --
PHILLIP: He says it's being reported? No, I -- look, the facts of the immigration system in the United States are bad enough that you don't have to dip into stories that you can't verify or that have been proven not to be true. That's what I think.
I think if he stuck to the facts of what they did on day one to reverse all of his policies, the verified numbers of people that have come into this country, the number of violent people that have been into this country that we just have roaming around, and the societal and governance impacts that all this illegal immigration has caused, he'd be perfectly fine.
PHILLIP: So, just the next --
HAQ: Why that's logical.
PHILLIP: Yes.
HAQ: That's logical.
PHILLIP: Okay, but the next step on it is the fact that he keeps doing this, does that -- that doesn't bother you either?
JENNINGS: Yes, like I said, if I were being asked about this and I were a candidate for public office, I would say, here are the facts of the system. The facts ought to outrage you. Please vote for me.
HAQ: This is a different -- this is a little bit different than just broadly, you know, Trump getting things and not sourcing things correctly and just making "ish" up all the time. This is a very targeted situation for a very specific community that is here legally. Now, we can disagree about whether or not they should be here, but they are here legally. The governor of Ohio has said multiple times that this community in
particular has been a gift to companies that needed workers. They have been hardworking. This is literally what Reagan used to talk about when he talked about immigration about -- hardworking people who can boost the economy. There is a demand for undocumented workers in this country that is not being addressed by the executive branch of both parties, but those are facts.
SWISHER: I think I understand why he's saying it though. I saw a play last night here at the Lincoln Center Theater called "McNeil". It's about A.I., Robert Downey, Jr. is in it. At the end of the play, it's about A.I. rewriting things.
There was a phrase that I really like called a truthful lie, which is, I heard it somewhere. It's not, it's an absolute lie, but he somehow thinks it's the truth, so he thinks he's telling the truth. And so, I don't know if he's -- I honestly don't know if he's willfully doing it, but he --
PIERCE: I don't think he's --
PHILLIP: I'm shocked to hear you say that. You don't think Trump is willful?
SWISHER: I think he is.
PHILLIP: When he's been told repeatedly that it's not true.
SWISHER: Frankly, I think he's addled. And he's heard stories. He reminds me of my mom, like an elderly person who's going, I heard it. You know, it was sad.
PHILLIP: I got to defend your mom here.
SWISHER: Okay, but I have to say, no, my mom does that all the time. She's like that this and it's not true. Sorry, but she does. It's the way it is. I'm going to--
HAQ: It's nice to hear a dementia argument --
PIERCE: I think it's willful.
UNKNOWN: It's nice to hear--
PIERCE: I think it's willful. I don't think he's addled at all. I think it's willful.
SWISHER: Okay.
PIERCE: It is what -- the bigger the lie, the more they believe.
[22:40:04]
SWISHER: But I think the--
PIERCE: That is the whole authoritative -- SWISHER: What they have is a tiny grain of issues around immigration --
PIERCE: It is a fascist playbook.
SWISHER: -- and then they take a lie and then there's a tiny bit of truth that people have issues with immigration and put it in the --
PIERCE: People have issues with immigration.
SWISHER: Right.
PIERCE: But he is purposely lying to -- he's purposely lying to --
SWISHER: I think she's asking why. I think she' asking why.
PIERCE: Why? Because people believe it.
HAQ: And it's not an accident.
PIERCE: The more you lie, the more they believe. That is in--
HAQ: That is propaganda.
PIERCE: -- the propaganda playbook.
HAQ: Right.
PIERCE: If you make it simple, repeat it over and over until it gets to a point where he believes and he did it today in the economic summit. I know a guy who's going to rebuild his auto plant in America, you know, if I put the tariffs on this guy. There's this mythical person. There's this mythical person that tells her --
SWISHER: Sir, Sir he said to -- getting --
PIERCE: You know, I heard -- I heard someone said this. I think I read it somewhere, some person, somebody said this mythical person that tells him that this lie is true. And as long as I didn't say it, it's obvious.
PHILLIP: Can I add one more to the equation? This is actually from J.D. Vance. This is what he said today of all days for whatever reason.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. J.D. VANCE, REPUBLICAN VICE-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: On the election of 2020, I've answered this question directly a million times, no. I think there are serious problems in 2020. So, did Donald Trump lose the election not by the words that I would use?
Okay, what the media will do, they'll focus on the court cases or they'll focus on some crazy conspiracy theory. What I know, what verifiably, I know happened, is that in 2020, large technology companies censored Americans from talking about things like the Hunter Biden laptop story. And that had a major, major consequence on the election.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAQ: Because we all know that Hunter Biden laptop voter.
PHILLIP: That's quite a turn of phrase.
UNKNOWN: But it was important.
PHILLIP: Not by the words I would use. Did he win or lose? I mean, that is -- that is a really, I don't know.
HUGHES: I've noticed the past two years, there's a certain kind of Republican that knows Trump lost the election, but is uncomfortable saying that outright. So, pivots to the very real issue, he's correct that the Hunter Biden laptop story was nerfed on social media.
And that's something that should absolutely be taken seriously. But they pivoted to that to say, actually, it's not so wrong that he lost the election. When really, it is wrong. He lost the election, but also, there was this, really --
SWISHER: Yes, but-- this is what I'm talking about.
PIERCE: The fact that he lost the election and then tried to overthrow the government.
HAQ: It is not. They're not equivalent.
PIERCE: He lost the election but he tried to overthrow the government.
SWISHER: This is what he's doing with his idea of a truthful lie. This is -- there is no proof that tech companies colluded to do this. This is non-sense and he knows it.
JENNINGS: Oh, oh.
SWISHER: No, I'm sorry. Scott, I'm going to be real frank on you on set.
JENNINGS: There was a major institutional effort.
SWISHER: No, there was absolutely --listen, I have been one of the biggest critics of tech. This is nonsense, absolutely nonsense and when he just sort of discounts all the court cases, dozens and dozens of them.
JENNINGS: Was "The New York Post" thrown off Twitter?
SWISHER: They were, and then they --Scott, let me try again to explain to you what actually happened.
PHILLIP: She has an actual reporting on this.
SWISHER: They made a mistake. I actually did --
JENNINGS: I know and I lived through it, too. They threw the "New York Post" and the story off Twitter.
SWISHER: Guess what - literally don't know what you're talking about.
PHILLIP: Scott, listen carefully because she's actually done, I mean, she's done the work.
SWISHER: It's really hard to deal with you.
JENNINGS: You want to insult me? Go ahead.
SWISHER: No, I'm not insulting you. I don't know why you keep repeating things that aren't true.
JENNINGS: Did they get thrown off Twitter? It's true. Oh.
SWISHER: They did and then they said that we made a mistake, and they put them right back on, just like CNN does, just like "The New York Times" does. It wasn't after the election, it was during the time and they switched Jack Dorsey's switch.
So, I think what the issue is, is you think Twitter is the government. You think Twitter is running things. And there is not this wide collusion. And J.D. Vance knows that because he's worked in tech. He knows there is no such thing as big tech. There are big tech companies. They do not collude on this issue.
HAQ: But what they do collude on, and here's the Peter Thiels of the world and Elon Musk, as we see him now randomly, because apparently someone thinks that Elon Musk will turn out voters in Pennsylvania, they are messaging and marketing together as individuals that --
SWISHER: On Twitter. By the way, I'm fine with that. If he wanted to buy that and use it as a propaganda tool.
HAQ: Right, their argument is that trust us as founders. We are billionaire founders. We are so smart. These are J.D. Vance's friends, right? As opposed to trust the system of democracy. They are trying to get people against it.
SWISHER: He can do that.
HAQ: Listen, let me, he --it's a private platform.
SWISHER: No.
HAQ: He can do whatever he wants with it.
JENNINGS: The Hunter Biden issue, it was suppressed and at the same time it was being suppressed, every supposed expert -- intelligence expert in the Democratic Party, assured --assured the American people that this was a Russian disinformation story. They worked hand in glove. That's what happened.
PHILLIP: Scott, we don't have time to litigate the Hunter Biden story, but I have -- all I will say about that is that there's a huge leap from the story was suppressed to that information would have turned the election for Trump. And I think that no Republican has bridged that gap, which is an important gap to bridge.
[22:45:00]
PIERCE: Does that justify insurrection?
PHILLIP: All right, everyone --
PIERCE: That's a disqualifier for me. They tried to overthrow the government when they didn't get the result in the election.
PHILLIP: That is part two of it, and we cannot forget about that. Everyone, hold on. Coming up next, a member of this panel called out former President Obama first remarks about black men and then Obama called him. Here what happened, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:49:45]
PHILLIP: Tonight, the president's lecture, the former President Obama, struck a national nerve when he said this about black men.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (D): You're coming up with all kinds of reasons and excuses.
[22:50:01]
I'm speaking to men directly. Part of it makes me think that, well, you just aren't feeling the idea of having a woman as president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Wendell Pierce, who is still with us at the table, says that Obama is wrong. And he tweeted this initially, "The party has to stop scapegoating black men. Black men are not the problem." And then, there was a phone call. So, what happened?
PIERCE: Well, I've known the president for years now. And a mutual contact, you know, said that he wanted to speak, I wanted to speak to him. I didn't offer it as a criticism. For me, it was nothing more than strategist in a room saying, hey, what is the best messaging for black men?
I have focused the past six weeks of going around -- going around the country but a barbershop campaign, right? Going to barbershops to talk to black men since I heard this every election cycle they always say that's black men are siphoned off. And I've found the most effective way to communicate to the -- to the men in those gatherings was saying what do you want?
Vote for what you want, declare what your values are, and then go out and make the choice on that. Don't consider my candidate or the other candidate, vote for what you want. And I found it to be effective. What they would say is, what are you doing here? This is the first time someone came and asked that of me. And so, I was saying simply, that's not the way to get to folks. What I've experienced in the past six weeks is the fact folks want to see what have you delivered.
PHILLIP: Did he acknowledge that it was not delivered the right way?
PIERCE: We actually didn't get into which was better or if it was criticism. It was saying that we were on the same page. We just wanted to clear it. We wanted to make sure that we were on the same page and that we wanted to reach out to folks.
And I think it's just a matter of messaging, one way or the other, and that the focus shouldn't be on the criticism or what is perceived as criticism or what is perceived as the right way or the wrong way to get to black men. It's the first thing is to approach and engage black men, accept the challenge, and get out the vote.
PHILLIP: Yes, I mean, Coleman, you were -- we had you on last week when this happened. You were critical of it then.
HUGHES: Yes.
PHILLIP: And you probably believe, I guess, I assume, that there is some movement toward the right among black men.
HUGHES: Absolutely. I mean, we've been talking about that not only on this show, on other shows on this network for over a year. Pew has been studying this issue. There is a clear trend among black men towards the Republican Party and away from Democrats.
It's not just about Trump or Biden or Kamala. It's about a party effect. And the question is, why is that? I think it's even bigger than black men. I think it's men, in general. I think there's something about the Democratic Party.
PIERCE: I think it is insignificant.
HUGHES: Well, a lot of --
PIERCE: We've had the same conversation going all the way back --
HUGHES: No, actually, it's really a phenomenon.
PIERCE: And the fact is in this election --
HUGHES: Last eight years.
PIERCE: Give me any candidate who wouldn't want 85 percent of any demographics vote.
HUGHES: Trump actually got more of the black vote in 2020 than --
PIERCE: He actually got three points. You're actually right. You got three more points. You got three more points.
PHILLIP: You also think it's not a significant --
PIERCE: Trend line is not for three points.
HUGHES: Burying your head in the sand isn't going to fix --
PIERCE: I know and that's why we're going around messaging the people.
HAQ: That's right. I think the problem Obama had --I think the problem Obama had and I even reacted to it when he did it. And I've been on the other side of when Obama does that. It's the sort of -- chiding Obama without treating them in a respectful manner.
I didn't find that a respectful way to treat anybody, and immediately really pushing hard on identity politics over what do you want as a person, as a, not just a man, as a person in American society. And I think, there's a part of Obama that is the hope person, and then there's that. And I don't think that's an effective way. I think you're 100 percent right.
PIERCE: Well, I think what he was saying is something that we've all been saying. And that's something that, I mean, as offensive as Donald Trump is to black men, it's very hard for a black man to say-- understand why would someone vote for him.
SWISHER: Right.
PIERCE: It's racist, racist actions, it's racist words, it's racist policies, right? And so, that was the thing that's in the front. And so, what I said was reactionary. I said, yes, the president shouldn't speak to them that way because I have found that something is more effective.
SWISHER: Right.
PIERCE: It was seen as criticism, you know, and that's valid. I don't think that's as much an issue as the point of making sure that we continue to talk to them and get them out to the polls. And the trend that you're talking about is that -- is not that it will not be that significant.
HAQ: It's on the margins.
PIERCE: It's on the margins and those two or three points may add up to something and that's why we're engaging black men. That's why -- that's why the vice president has put out a platform to answer some of those challenges.
[22:55:03]
JENNINGS: This is a key question, actually, because I wanted to ask you that the policies in that, I mean, effectively, she said I'm going to give you marijuana, I'm going to give you crypto, and I'm going to give you unconstitutional government bribes. If a white Republican politician had done that, we would be in 24-7.
HAQ: That is a real disservice to an actual substantive platform.
JENNINGS: It was completely handwritten. PHILLIP: Actually, Scott, Scott, okay. Young people, regardless of
their race, they want to hear about crypto. They want to hear about marijuana, criminalization --
JENNINGS: It was for black men. It was stated.
PIERCE: No, it was stated because black men asked, what are you going to do for me?
JENNINGS: Hold on, hold on.
PHILLIP: I mean, the idea that those are just for black men is, I think, not true.
PIERCE: The loans -- it's not loans for black men. It's loans for anyone. No, it isn't. This will be effective for you, too.
UNKNOWN: For you, also.
PIERCE: -That I had also -- already put out a week ago, actually a month ago, that these -- that these entrepreneurial loans will be beneficial to you just like I tell black folks it is a black policy. Social Security is a black policy. Medicare is a black policy. It is effective and it and it impacts your community as much as anyone else's community --
PHILLIP: All right, everyone --
PIERCE: -- so, it is not identity politics.
PHILLIP: Thank you.
PIERCE: It's actually American policy.
PHILLIP: Great discussion here, everyone. Thank you very much, Wendell. We'll look forward to your show tomorrow. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:00:33]
PHILLIP: And before we go, a reminder, this time next week, Anderson Cooper will be hosting a town hall with Vice President Kamala Harris just 13 days before the election, 9 P.M., right here on CNN. Thanks for watching. Laura Coates starts right now.
