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"Concerning" Bird Flu Mutation; Plane Possible "Brought Down By Russian Air Defenses"; Hearing For NYC Subway Murder Suspect. Aired 2- 2:30p ET

Aired December 27, 2024 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: New concerns about the bird flu. The CDC is warning about a quote "concerning" mutation found in the first severe case of the virus in a hospitalized patient, indicating it could potentially be more transmissible to humans. We've got new details ahead.

ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: Plus, as questions swirl about Russia's possible role in the deadly Azerbaijan Airlines crash, that airline now revealing the jet went down after, quote, "physical and technical external interference".

And a new study finds buildings in southeast Florida are sinking at a surprising rate, including a number of high-end condos and hotels. The main cause, vibrations from construction. Alaskan expert, just how concerned residents should be. We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN News Central.

DEAN: Hi everyone. I'm Jessica Dean in New York alongside Erica Hill this afternoon. And topping our hour, a new concerning CDC report about bird flu here in the U.S. The virus appears to have mutated in an infected patient from Louisiana and that could possibly increase the chances of human to human transmission.

HILL: That hospitalized patient is the first severe human case of bird flu in the country. CDC officials say the person likely became infected after having contact with sick or dead birds in a backyard flock. Now, the CDC is also emphasizing there is no evidence here of human to human transmission. And they do say that the public risk of infection remains low.

CNN Medical Correspondent Meg Tirrell is following this and has more details for us. So Meg, what does happen at this point?

MEG TIRRELL, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, hopefully nothing. You know, what we've heard from the CDC about this is that the good news is it appears the virus mutated in the patient while they were in the hospital past the time they were potentially infectious to other people. They haven't been shown to have spread the virus to any other people. And it also doesn't appear that they picked it up from the flock of where they're suspected to have caught the virus. And so it's not thought that this version of the virus that essentially has mutations that make it better able potentially to infect our nose and throats, the upper respiratory tract of humans. They don't think that this is really floating around in the environment. So that's why I say hopefully nothing happens next and we don't start to see this spread between people.

So far, as you noted, the CDC says we haven't seen person to person spread. We have seen 65 confirmed cases of bird flu among humans in the U.S. in this outbreak. And all of these have come from animals, most of them from dairy cattle, some from poultry flocks. Those farm workers, in both instances there, this one person picked it up from a backyard flock.

And then there's two cases where we don't know the source of exposure. But because we're not seeing it spread between people as of now, that's why the CDC is saying the risk at this moment is low to most people.

DEAN: Yeah. And hopefully, it stays that way. Of course, all of us remember that we've just come through the COVID pandemic. And so what are scientists saying about whether they are using any lessons learned from that to mitigate the threat of this bird flu?

TIRRELL: Yeah, you know, we've been hearing from a lot of experts, including on our air this morning, Dr. Deborah Birx, who is the COVID response coordinator for President Trump. She warned that essentially she thinks the U.S. has its head in the sand about the spread of bird flu from animals to people.

She told Pamela Brown this morning that she thinks we must be -- we should be doing a lot more testing. She's particularly worried that we're heading into seasonal flu season, so we're going to see a lot more human flu floating around in the environment. And one of the concerns among scientists that she cited as well is that somebody could potentially become infected at the same time with seasonal flu and bird flu, and that the gene segments could swap around and make bird flu more infectious to humans.

So that is a main concern. We know that farm workers are being offered seasonal flu vaccine as everybody is recommended to get in order to try to mitigate that threat.

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But there are a lot of concerns that the U.S. hasn't acted quickly enough and we haven't taken enough stock of what happened during COVID to better address all pandemic threats, not just this one.

HILL: Yeah. Meg Tirrell, appreciate it. Thank you.

Also joining us to discuss Dr. Peter Hotez, who's Dean of the School of Tropical Medicine at Baylor College of Medicine and the author of Preventing the Next Pandemic Vaccine Diplomacy in a Time of Anti- science. Dr. Hotez, good to see you today as always. You know, I was struck by those comments too from Dr. Birx earlier this morning, saying that the U.S. has its head in the sand. She says essentially we're not testing enough when it comes to bird flu.

But at the same time, you have the CDC saying, look, we haven't really seen human to human spread. You don't need to be that concerned about a public outbreak. How do we weigh all that information? Essentially, how concerned should we really be?

DR. PETER HOTEZ, DEAN SCHOOL OF TROPICAL MEDICINE, BAYLOR COLLEGE OF MEDICINE: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, the way I break it down is we need to be concerned, although the threat is probably not imminent. You know, as you've pointed out, there are two possible routes by which H5N1 avian flu could adapt to humans. And we could start seeing human to human transmission.

Right now we're not there. The first possibility is that this virus undergoes mutation. And we know this virus is capable of that. There was a paper in Science magazine from the group at the Scripps Institute showing all it takes is a single mutation for H5N1 to bind to the human flu receptor.

The same thing happened as a low frequency event in the virus that was in this woman in Louisiana. But that does not necessarily -- just because it's binding to the receptor doesn't necessarily mean we're going to see increased transmission. So that mutation may actually be the less likely route.

The more greater concern that I've been reading about and hearing about and knowing what we know about influenza is the second mode, which was also mentioned in your report, that is reassortment. So imagine for instance, that a farm worker working -- working in dairy farms gets infected both with the H5N1 from cattle and simultaneously influence seasonal influenza, which likely will happen because we're going to start seeing the big increase in seasonal flu. There is that possibility of reassortment and that may be actually the greater danger.

And so one of the things that I've been advocating for is for people to get their seasonal influenza vaccine. You should get it anyway. And I would recommend that regardless of anything that's happening with H5N1, because flu is a serious killer and causes a serious cause of morbidity mortality in the United States. But there's the potential that if that reassortment does happen, that seasonal flu could offer some partial protection for that new avian flu that's circulating around. So I think we've got to get that message out more.

The other thing we're not doing right now is we need to be stockpiling H5N1 vaccine and starting to think about vaccinating our farm workers. They're already doing that in Finland. So there are a lot more steps that we could be taking right now that we're not. And I am concerned as we head deeper into the flu season.

DEAN: And so I hear you on getting vaccinated, get that flu vaccine. That seems like a thing that people can go do today and is pretty simple to do. What else can people do to protect themselves? Again, reminding everyone we don't have human to human transmission at this point. And this is mostly infecting people who come in contact with these animals. But I think there are also questions from people out there. Can I drink milk? Can I eat chicken? Things like that.

HOTEZ: You can certainly drink milk and eat chicken, but it needs to be pasteurized milk, not raw milk, because there is that risk of the viruses is in raw milk right now. And it's in raw milk in many areas of the country, particularly in California and elsewhere. But also other poultry products, chicken, eggs, you need to cook that at the specified temperature as well.

So those are also important measures. And of course, the usual things to prevent you from getting seasonal flu, hand washing is going to be very important. And by the way, we still could see an uptick in COVID. So remember to keep up to date with your COVID immunizations and boosters.

And we are also moving into RSV season, Respiratory Syncytial Virus season. And there's a vaccine for that too, for those who are eligible. So being mindful of that we are moving into respiratory virus season. There is that possible risk that avian flu could reassort with seasonal flu. Get your flu vaccine, I think is going to -- is probably one of the most straightforward things you can do right now.

DEAN: Okay, that's good advice. We should all take it. All right. Dr. Peter Hotez, thank you so much for that.

And this just into us. The White House now addressing that deadly plane crash in Kazakhstan. National Security Council spokesperson John Kirby saying officials, quote, "have seen some early indications that would certainly point to the possibility that this jet was brought down by Russian air defenses".

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Now, this comes after Azerbaijan Airlines said preliminary information suggests the flight went down, quote, "as a result of physical and technical external interference". More than half of the 67 people on board were killed.

HILL: We are also hearing for the first time from a survivor of that crash. You see him here. This is video of him praying on board the flight. He told Reuters from his hospital bed he heard a loud bang on the plane and that it was obvious to him the plane had been damaged at that point. He went on to say the plane's crew did a great job in his words, at keeping passengers under control.

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SUBHONKUL RAKHIMOV, PLANE CRASH SURVIVOR: After the bang, people started getting up from their seats. Not everyone of course, but those who were emotional they all stood up. The flight attendants immediately entered the cabin and started telling the passengers, what are you doing? Don't get up under any circumstances. Everyone quickly get back to your seats. Everyone sit down. Everyone calm down. Everything is fine. Everything will stabilize.

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HILL: CNN Correspondent Nada Bashir is following all of these developments for us. And I know now you have some more information on the survivor, but there's also new information about a second black box that's been recovered. What do we know about that?

NADA BASHIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. These two black box recorders will be crucial for investigators examining the evidence in order to figure out exactly what led to this plane crashing on Wednesday.

They will be of course assessing the flight data recorded as well as potentially internal recordings within the cockpit. But according to authorities, it could take around two weeks for investigators to complete that assessment and examination. But of course there are a whole range of lines of inquiry that they will be looking at, at this stage, including damage to the aircraft.

We've seen of course, video and images emerging showing the wreckage, the fuselage showing holes and perforations in parts of the plane's body. So that will certainly raise questions, particularly as many continue to speak speculate around shrapnel hits midair on this plane. And as you mentioned, we have been hearing from U.S. officials. Reuters has also heard from a number of unnamed sources familiar with the ongoing investigations suggesting that the plane may well have been downed by Russian anti-aircraft air defense systems.

Now, it's important to underscore that as far as we understand at this stage, the plane crashed shortly after drone strikes hit parts of southern Russia. So there has been some concern around drone activity in the region, the potential for this aircraft to have been targeted by mistake in the midst of these drone strikes happening nearby.

And of course, we've been hearing these reports now from the survivors. Remarkably, 29 people survived that crash and they have been discussing the terrifying final moments before the crash. Take a listen.

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RAKHIMOV: I was conscious when I felt the impact. I was thrown up, hit down, thrown up again. I was strapped in. I was being thrown back and forth. It all lasted a few seconds and then everything went quiet in silence. Everything was quiet, calm. And I realized that was it, we had landed.

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BASHIR: And we've seen the videos showing some of those injured passengers emerging from the tail end of the aircraft, which appears to be somewhat still intact, although upturned. Many of them, of course, were injured. At least five are said to be in a serious but stable condition, but of course, 38 were killed in this crash. At this stage, Azerbaijan Airlines says, as you mentioned, that it believes that the plane was subject to external physical and technical interference. So that'll be something that investigators are looking at, at this stage. Azerbaijan Airlines has now canceled flights from its capital, Baku, to at least seven cities in Russia, potentially as a result of the concerns surrounding nearby drone activity and the safety precautions needed to operate in this particular region.

And we are learning, of course, that both survivors and the family members of those that have been killed are now being offered compensation by the authorities. But again, many will be waiting to hear those firm and clear answers as to what led to this crash. That investigation could take several more days, if not weeks for a final answer to be ascertained. But we will be keeping an eye on those updates coming in as they do come in.

HILL: All right. Nada appreciate it. Thank you.

Also joining us this hour, CNN Global Affairs Analyst Mark Esper, who of course served as Defense Secretary in the first Trump presidency. He's also a board member or strategic adviser for a handful of aerospace and defense related companies. It's good to have you with us.

So I know you just heard these comments from White House National Security Council spokesperson John Kirby on the record now about the possibility this plane was brought down by Russian air defenses. As you look at what we do know here two days later, what is your first question, your main concern at this point?

MARK ESPER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, first of all, good afternoon, Erica. Look, I think in all that I could see and what I've heard, it looks like it was a fragments from a missile or a cannon fired by an air defense artillery system using a proximity fuse.

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That's what would make those perforations in the fuselage of the aircraft.

So the question is, I guess from a larger perspective is if the Russian city of Grozny, for example, is experiencing a drone attack, why isn't the Russian version of the FAA shutting down the airspace and diverting aircraft to a different city? Number one, that should be par for the course, if you will. And then secondly, if that attack was going on or it just transpired, why was the aircraft forced to depart Russian airspace, fly across the Caspian Sea, and land in Kazakhstan?

Those are the two bigger questions I have out there, beyond what downed the aircraft. To me, again, circumstantially, it looks like an air defense system perforated the hull of the aircraft, caused the damage, which eventually led to the crash landing.

DEAN: And Secretary Esper, Kirby also said we're, quote, "going to respect the joint investigation process between Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan". You just listed out some of the questions that you and others have. Do you think we'll ever get the full story here?

ESPER: Not from the Russians. They tend to lie and obfuscate, so I'd be surprised if we do. But again, I think we can piece together at least the basics of what happened and get to some ground truth.

But I think looking ahead, if you're flying into these parts of Russia that are being attacked by Ukrainian drones, then I think you've got to be concerned about the viability of a commercial flight going into these places. And I think Russia has to address that larger issue for the broader flying community that's out there flying in and out of Russia.

HILL: While we wait for Russia to potentially address that. Does that say to you that maybe commercial flights should avoid Russian airspace at this point?

ESPER: Well, I wouldn't fly a Russian or any type of aircraft into Russia that borders Ukraine right now. Again, Russia has a history of this. We know that Russian air defense system shot down a Malaysian flight over Ukraine in, what, 2014.

So again, you know, it's very opaque as to what's going on inside of Russia. Vladimir Putin is going to try to dodge this issue because he does not want to, you know, embarrass his country and what's going on. And he's going to want to try to reassure people that flying to and from Russia is safe because he's got to be concerned about his already weakened economy being further affected by people unwilling to travel to or from Russia for business.

DEAN: If we zoom way out for a second, does this -- how does this, if it does, connect at all with how many resources they've had to pour into the war on Ukraine. It made them not able to support Bashar al- Assad and his regime in Syria. Now, you're seeing that they're potentially accidentally shooting down a passenger plane. Does it speak at all to how -- how thinly their resources are spread right now?

ESPER: Well, clearly they've refocused the military for sure, and the economy on the war in Ukraine, we know that, you know, they're spending 8%, 9% of GDP on the war right now. The Russian economy is on a war footing with regard to the production of arms and ammunition. So they're very focused there.

And I think what's happening on the ground is if you're in these border towns, whether it's southern Russia, where this happened in the Caucasus, or between the line of path between Ukraine and Moscow, you've seen over what, two years now, you've seen a variety of Ukrainian drone attacks against Russia. So if you're an air defense gunner in Russia somewhere, you're nervous, you're concerned about missing a target that may attack the motherland, Russia.

And so I think you have antsy soldiers manning these systems, not wanting to make a mistake in terms of allowing enemy drone to pass through. And I think they're -- they're taking shots at aircraft. In this case, we do know, or we believe at least that there was electronic warfare taking place where the Russians were jamming the GPS system of this aircraft.

And we also know that there was fog in the area. That's what prevented the aircraft from landing the first time. So now you have plausibly, Russian air defense gunners shooting at radar targets that they can't visually verify shooting up in the air. And again, that concerns me for any type of commercial aircraft flying in and out or through Russia, for that matter.

DEAN: Yeah, it is concerning. All right. Secretary Mark Esper, thank you so much for being here with us.

ESPER: Thank you.

DEAN: And still ahead, what's behind President Elect Donald Trump's repeated suggestions that the U.S. should take over the Panama Canal or countries like Greenland and Canada? We've got new reporting about his potential or possible real motives.

HILL: Plus, a hearing today for the suspect accused of killing a woman by setting her on fire on the New York City subway. New details on the charges he is now facing. Stay with us. This is CNN News Central.

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DEAN: With just 24 days until his inauguration this week, President Elect Donald Trump has made it clear he is focused on his desire to possibly take control of the Panama Canal and by Greenland when he returns to the White House. Sources now telling CNN these preoccupations for Trump are all part of negotiating tactics to force foreign leaders to the table. CNN's Alayna Treene broke this new reporting for us. Alayna, walk us through what you're learning.

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Well, that's right, Jessica. When I talked to some Trump advisers, this was their interpretation of some of these recent calls. And really this fixation we've seen Donald Trump have, whether it be his focus on wanting to take over control of the Panama Canal or him talking about wanting to buy Greenland, which we should say, Greenland's Prime Minister says the country is not for sale.

All of that, I'm told from this adviser is essentially strategic, that Donald Trump is trying to use all of this as a way to force foreign leaders to the negotiating table. One, to try and boost U.S. trade and try to get some better trade deals for America, but also to try and curb both China and Russia's influence overall abroad.

Now, as it relates to the Panama Canal specifically, I'm told that Donald Trump believes that America -- that he wants really American vessels to have better shipping rates and better rates as they pass through the canal.

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That is one overarching goal for all of this. But also he believes that China controls a lot of the ports in the canal and that essentially is giving them control over the shipping rates, but also which vessels can pass through.

Now, for something like Greenland, where he's calling for again, this reviving this desire from 2019, really, of them wanting to buy Greenland, I'm told that really he thinks that having more U.S. control over that region could help deter Russian aggression in the Arctic. Now, I'm going to read for you just what one of these advisers told me. They said, quote, "Everything has to be looked at in terms of curbing Russia and China influence, while also protecting the economy". That is what they said this all comes down to.

Now, one thing that I also just found very interesting is I had a lot of people ask me this week, you know, where is this coming from, particularly his fixation on the Panama Canal. But when I talked to sources close to Donald Trump, they said that this is actually something he's been fixated on for several months now and pointed me to an interview he actually did in August with Tucker Carlson on X, where he brought up the Panama Canal.

He essentially said that then President Jimmy Carter, in the treaty that he signed giving control over the canal to Panama was a mistake and that essentially that he would want to see what they could do about trying to get America a better trade deal of regarding the Panama Canal if in August.

So all to say, a lot of this, of course, is unclear. I think some of the claims that he is making, including one we didn't mention, which is that he wants to try and absorb Canada into the U.S. as the 51st state. I mean, something like that is just not going to happen.

But this is all really Donald Trump's way of trying to exert his dominance over these leaders and also trying to bring them to the table to see what he can do to maybe change, you know, pricing, whether it's related to the Panama Canal or different trade deals, as well as trying to kneecap both Russia and China as much as possible before he takes office. Jessica.

DEAN: Alayna Treene with her new reporting. Thank you very much for that.

And joining us to talk more about all of this is Congressman Jake Auchincloss. He's a Democrat from Massachusetts. Congressman, thanks so much for being here with us. We appreciate it. I just want to note first, you are on the House Select Committee focused on the CCP. I'm curious if you think there is legitimate concern about China's influence on the Panama Canal.

REP. JAKE AUCHINCLOSS, (D) MASSACHUSETTS: There are two shipping companies domiciled in Hong Kong that have a presence at the Panama Canal Zone. No evidence that I have seen that that represents a security threat to the United States. I actually, 10 years ago, commanded a combined riverine training team. It combines Colombian and U.S. special operators to train the Panamanian public forces and how to do patrols on the Panama Canal Zone. And I found the Panamanians to be professional, to be pro-American. These are our allies. The world, Jessica, is complicated enough without picking fights with our friends. I would really encourage President Trump to look at the two hot wars that we've got to handle right now, one in Ukraine, one in the Middle East, and ensure that we are supporting Ukraine to unconditional victory and that we are supporting Israel now that it has the upper hand against Iran.

DEAN: And you just heard my colleague Alayna Treene with her reporting that Trump advisers are explaining this as a negotiating tactic that he's using. And I hear you saying that the world is complicated enough. Do you agree with this sort of tactic? Do you think that that could be appropriate and bear fruit for America?

AUCHINCLOSS: No, because the Pax Americana, which has spread peace and prosperity globally for the last 70 years, is based on the idea that America supports and respects the rule of law everywhere. And when we are seen to bully a small country like Panama, I don't think it makes us look strong or tough. I think it makes us look petulant.

And it also -- it's worth noting, Jessica, that if he's worried about being overcharged and that raising prices for American families, that runs directly contrary to his idea of adding tariffs on imports from Canada, from Mexico, those are going to raise costs for food and for car insurance and for housing for American families far more than the rate that the Panama Canal Zone are charging.

DEAN: I want to also ask you about this back and forth between Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy with the MAGA supporters over their defense of foreign worker visas. You have a background in business. You worked for a cybersecurity startup prior to Congress. Do you think, as Musk said, there is this dire shortage of extremely talented and motivated engineers, and do you think more of these H1B visas should be issued?

AUCHINCLOSS: I'm a strong supporter of the H1B visa program. I represent Massachusetts, as you know, Jessica, and I'm not sure there's a state in the union that more benefits from the kind of high skilled immigration that H1B visas unlock than Massachusetts does. And the Democratic Party has been squarely in support of this program for decades now.