Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Thousands of Federal Workers Terminated; U.S. Excluding Ukraine From Russia War Peace Talks; Elon Musk Gets Access to Americans' Tax Information. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired February 17, 2025 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:59]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Imminent access. Elon Musk's DOGE about to get its hands on an IRS system that contains highly sensitive information on millions of Americans, data so sensitive that improper use of it could land someone in prison. The big question, what do they do with it once they have it? We're following the latest.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And pushing for a deal with Putin, U.S. officials in Saudi Arabia ahead of critical talks with Russia on ending the war in Ukraine. Not at the table, Ukraine or key European leaders. What that says about the administration's strategy ahead of this meeting.

And hospitals on alert in Western Texas, as measles cases double in just one week. It is the state's worst measles outbreak in nearly 30 years.

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SANCHEZ: New developments this hour, as Elon Musk and his government efficiency team plow forward with plans to gut federal agencies.

We're now learning that DOGE is in the process of trying to access a critical IRS system that holds highly sensitive data on millions of Americans. It stores things like your banking information, Social Security numbers, and tax returns, and that is raising serious concerns about privacy, as well as Musk's unprecedented influence on the U.S. government.

Let's take you now live to the White House with CNN's Alayna Treene.

Alayna, walk us through what this IRS system is and why DOGE wants access to it.

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Well, when I talk to sources familiar with this move, Boris, they tell me this is all part of Musk and do DOGE's broader umbrella and kind of directive to try and hunt down what they are referring to as waste, fraud, and abuse within the government.

Now they're turning their gaze and attention to the IRS. Now, you mentioned it, but the IRS taxpayer data system is highly sensitive and provides data on taxpayers' personal information, their banking account info, their Social Security numbers, their tax returns, and much more.

So, of course, a lot of questions over whether there are privacy violations going on here. We actually did hear some criticism from Capitol Hill raising concerns about this. But just to break down what we know at this point, one is that a DOGE software engineer. He's currently based temporarily at the IRS.

I'm told his name is Gavin Kliger. He is expected to be granted access to, the IRS system imminently, I'm told. As of 9:00 p.m. last night, he was not granted access. We also reached out to the White House just to ask for their statement on all of this. I want to read for you a bit of what Harrison Fields, a spokesperson for the White House, told me.

They said -- quote -- "DOGE will continue to shine a light on the fraud they uncover, as the American people deserve to know what their government has been spending their hard-earned tax dollars on.'

So, again, them really emphasizing that this is just part of the broader directive that DOGE is using to try and go into these agencies and hunt down what they are referring to as, like I said, waste, fraud, and abuse.

But one of the things that's most interesting about this, Boris, is that part of the IRS system and part of what they're trying to gain access to is what is called the Integrated Data Retrieval System. Just to walk through what that looks like, that, it's called the IDRS.

It enables access to IRS accounts, including pin and bank information. It allows access and adjustment to transaction data, and it also automatically generates notices, collection documents, and other outputs.

Now, I think a key question, of course, moving forward is, what, if any, kind of real pushback we may see to this? Again, we have heard from a lot of people, all corners of Washington, a lot of skepticism and criticism over these moves, just like we have in the past with some of what DOGE is doing, whether they have the legal authority to do this.

But, again, the Trump administration and people at DOGE are arguing that this is all part of that broader strategy of theirs to touch every agency in every part of government in that broader effort to kind of reduce the federal work force and reshape it in Donald Trump's image -- Boris.

[13:05:09]

SANCHEZ: Alayna Treene live for us at the White House, thank you so much -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Elon Musk's government efficiency team is now targeting the FAA as it looks to overhaul the agency. Hundreds of probationary employees have been fired in the Trump

administration's latest wave of sweeping layoffs, the move coming less than three weeks after the deadly midair collision in Washington, D.C., that involved a military helicopter and a passenger plane.

In the meantime, we're watching as a team of engineers who work for Musk's SpaceX is set to visit the FAA Command Center in Virginia today.

CNN's Pete Muntean is here now with more on these new developments.

What's the goal of this visit?

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, DOGE has really had its eyes set on the FAA since the crash over the Potomac, but the FAA has long been considered off-limits for government efficiency cuts.

But now this really takes it to a whole new level. A new development is now engineers working for Elon Musk are visiting the Federal Aviation Administration's Air Traffic Control Command Center. That's a facility in Warrenton, Virginia. It essentially coordinates every flight in the airspace system nationwide.

We know this from Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy, who announced this visit by Musk's team. He posted on X that President Trump is ordering a new air traffic control system and called for help not just from private industry, but any high-tech American developer in overhauling the FAA, meaning also private citizens.

Duffy said that Musk's team will get a firsthand look of the current system, learn what air traffic controllers like and dislike about their current tools, and envision how we can make a new, better, modern, and safer system.

The team is from SpaceX, and the fact that Musk is still involved in SpaceX has raised some big questions about conflicts of interest. Remember, private space flights are overseen by the FAA. They even grant licenses for each individual space launch.

Now, Musk squabbled with the FAA last year called for the then- administrator, Mike Whitaker, to resign from the FAA. He remained on his job until Inauguration Day.

KEILAR: Yes, that's a huge conflict, objectively.

So what more can you tell us about who is impacted in these FAA firings?

MUNTEAN: This is a pretty big deal, and the fact that this is happening at the FAA is huge.

The concern is, when these federal workers go back to work from the long weekend tomorrow, they could be barred from FAA facilities. The workers impacted here are members of a union called PASS. That's the Professional Aviation Safety Specialists union, part of the AFL-CIO. And union president Dave Spero tells me between 200 and 300 FAA

workers started receiving firing notices from the Trump administration late on Friday. These are the workers who help maintain the critical infrastructure that keeps the air traffic control system operating.

He says not only were these workers fired without cause, but that this was hardly a surgical move by the Trump administration, in a statement saying it's dangerous to public safety and especially unconscionable after the aftermath of the crashes that have been grabbing headlines over the last month.

It's important to note these are probationary employees, meaning they have been on the job for less than a year, meaning this was the next generation of workers at the Federal Aviation Administration, an agency that's had a really hard time keeping up with the pace of retirements and even attrition.

KEILAR: Pete Muntean, thank you so much. Really important reporting that you're doing on this -- Boris.

SANCHEZ: So what is it like to be on the other side of DOGE?

Let's discuss with former federal employee Elizabeth Aniskevich. She was an attorney at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, the CFPB, and was terminated in the Trump administration's mass firings.

I want to read you a portion of her termination e-mail. It says -- quote -- "Unfortunately, the agency finds that you are not fit for continued employment because your ability, knowledge, and skills do not fit the agency's current needs."

Elizabeth, thanks so much for being with us.

What was your reaction when you got that note, and what was the process of being terminated like?

ELIZABETH ANISKEVICH, FIRED FROM CFPB BY TRUMP ADMINISTRATION: Hi.

Thank you so much, first of all, Boris, for having me on here and for everybody's attention to this.

I would say MY reaction to receiving the notice was complete and utter shock, not only because I believe that I have the ability and knowledge and skills that fit the agency's mission and needs, but because of the way that it happened. I mean, my paycheck was done as of that day.

I have no information about exactly how long my health insurance will continue. I have not received forms that are necessary to file for unemployment. And there's just a lot of questions about what we are supposed to do next to take care of ourselves.

SANCHEZ: You weren't offered any kind of resources to form a plan for what's next?

ANISKEVICH: We were given an e-mail that you could reach out to. Many of us have, probably all of us who have been terminated with probationary status, and we have received an e-mail back saying they are working diligently to provide us the forms that we need and we should receive a packet in the mail within the next week or two.

[13:10:12]

But we have immediate needs now, all of us who were terminated.

SANCHEZ: Yes, of course.

I wonder if you could help us understand what it means to be a probationary worker, what it entails, and why you think DOGE is focused on those folks.

ANISKEVICH: Sure.

So a probationary worker, as you mentioned just a few minutes ago, is a is a newer worker to the federal government. At the CFPB, my term was two years. So I started in June 2024 and could have gone to June 2026. A probationary employee, you're new, but that doesn't mean that you don't have experience.

I myself am a seasoned litigator. I have been practicing law since 2011. I came in and was immediately leading investigations, drafting complaints in a lawsuit that we filed. These are people who are ready to dedicate their lives to the federal government from various backgrounds who are really committed to serving the American people.

I think DOGE is focused on probationary employees because they believe that they can just mass-terminate us without any recourse. It is true we don't have the same rights as employees who are post-probationary status, but we still cannot be terminated for pretextual reasons.

Nobody who has knowledge of my skills or my ability was involved in the decision to terminate me.

SANCHEZ: To your point about, serving the federal government and serving the American people, I wonder what you think the acting director of CFPB, Russell Vought, thinks of what the function of the agency should be, and what do you think the ultimate consequence of that agency specifically being gutted will be for American consumers, because so much of what you do deals with financial fraud, right?

ANISKEVICH: Right.

It's hard for me to understand what the acting director thinks the agency's mission or direction should be, given how dedicated I am to what the mission has been and the fact that I was told my knowledge no longer fits the agency's needs.

But I can say the fallout of losing the CFPB will be immense. The CFPB oversees 19 different statutes. If you have a credit card, if you take out a mortgage, if you have an auto loan, if you have medical debt, the CFPB had your back in those transactions. We oversee the Military Lending Act. If you're an active military employee, we protect you from predatory

lending practices. We are with consumers at every step of their financial life protecting them. And the loss of that, it opens a huge vacuum for anyone to come in and exploit consumers. And we are all consumers.

And as the marketplace gets more complex, none of us are immune from predatory practices or from scammers.

SANCHEZ: And, Elizabeth, I'm -- I understand that we have some video right now. I believe this is moments ago. It looks like the National Mall, and these are anti-DOGE protesters out there.

There's obviously a lot of sentiment, a lot of concern about what you're describing in terms of the sort of services and the sort of protections that are going to be at risk if agencies like CFPB are gutted or eliminated.

I do want to ask what you think of the argument, for example, with CFPB, that the agency's work was redundant, could be done by other agencies, and therefore eliminating it could help reduce the overall budget. What would your response be to that?

ANISKEVICH: I'm so happy someone has asked me this question.

I believe that the agencies that we allegedly are redundant are -- of are the Federal Trade Commission. But unlike the Federal Trade Commission, the CFPB has supervisory authority over banks with $10 billion or more and any entity that we supervise. So we can go in and work with them on an examination before there is an enforcement action filed.

And, sometimes, there just is not an enforcement as a result of being able to solve something in a supervisory capacity. In addition, the FTC is focused on what businesses are doing. And, sometimes, that overlaps with how a consumer is impacted, and then we figure out among the agencies who will prosecute that case.

I think the other agency that we are allegedly duplicative of is the SEC. I did securities fraud litigation for nearly seven years. It's not the same. You're protecting investors when the stock price is impacted. The CFPB is the only agency that is on the consumers' side a percent of the time. That's our marching orders and that's our mission.

[13:15:00]

Really, the only thing that we overlap in is the ability to regulate some of the very entities that Elon Musk controls.

SANCHEZ: So there would be potentially exposure for consumers. Could you address the argument that eliminating it would alleviate some of the budget issues that we're facing as a country, the national debt?

ANISKEVICH: Yes, so I'm not a complete expert on exactly how the budgetary process works, but what I do know is that the CFPB is not funded through the typical congressional appropriation process or funded through the Fed.

There's briefing out there that my colleagues and legal -- former colleagues, I should say, that are much more in tune with this that I would encourage others to read and look at. But when you have a line- item budget going through every year, we're not part of that.

So that's a unique sort of posture of the CFPB, and I'm curious how this is going to reduce the overall budget.

SANCHEZ: Elizabeth Aniskevich, we have to leave the conversation there. Please keep us posted once you receive the information that you were promised. We'd love to keep track of the story.

ANISKEVICH: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Thanks so much.

Still ahead: major talks under way on Ukraine without Ukraine. What we know about a key meeting happening between U.S. and Russian officials in Saudi Arabia tomorrow. We will take you live to Riyadh.

Plus, a deadly storm sweeping across the South, the threat not over yet, Kentucky's Governor Andy Beshear saying active rescue efforts are still under way in certain parts of that state.

Stay with CNN NEWS CENTRAL. We're back in just moments.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:21:02]

KEILAR: America's top diplomat and key negotiators are on the ground in Saudi Arabia right now. And, tomorrow, they will be sitting down for face-to-face talks with Russia, as the Trump administration tries to bring an end to the Kremlin's three-year war in Ukraine.

Notably, Ukrainian officials are not there at the negotiating table. They haven't been invited. Neither have the Europeans, and they're not happy about being excluded from these talks. Today, European leaders and NATO officials are holding an emergency summit in Paris to coordinate a response to what's happening in Saudi Arabia without them.

French President Emmanuel Macron also held a phone call with President Trump today.

CNN's Alex Marquardt is in Saudi Arabia covering these talks.

Alex, tell us what you're hearing.

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brianna, the U.S. delegation is here. They had a meeting and a dinner with the crown prince, MBS.

But, tomorrow, all eyes will turn to this very important meeting with the senior Russian delegation, the a meeting that we have not seen the likes of in the past three years during this war. The Russians have called that an abnormal period, and they are looking to get past the frostiness between Washington and Moscow.

They're looking to talk about a whole range of issues, not just Ukraine. They want to talk, they say, about the entire complex. But the U.S. is focusing more on the possibility of a Ukraine peace deal and approaching this very carefully.

And so what we're going to see tomorrow is Sergey Lavrov, the foreign minister of Russia, alongside the former U.S. ambassador -- Russian ambassador to the U.S. And then, on the American side of the table, you have got Secretary Rubio, the national security adviser, Mike Waltz, and Steve Witkoff, who's been doing a lot more work with the Russian side.

Now, the U.S. is under no illusions that they're going to come to any kind of agreement any time soon. This is the start of a process, they say. But this is the start of a process that, as you noted, is not including the Ukrainians. And we did hear some frustration from Ukrainian President Zelenskyy earlier today. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Ukraine will not participate. Ukraine knew nothing about them. Ukraine perceives any negotiations about Ukraine without Ukraine as those with no results. We cannot recognize anything or any agreements about us without us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: So that does -- Brianna, that does speak to a lot of the concerns among the Ukrainians and the Europeans that the U.S. is essentially pushing ahead just speaking with Russia about a potential deal.

We have heard President Zelenskyy say time and time again no talks Ukraine without the Ukrainians. But the way that the U.S. is approaching this and their defense of this is, they need to get things started. So they're working on two tracks. One is this track that we're seeing right now, direct conversations with the Russians.

Separately, this week, there will also be direct conversations with the Ukrainians. Trump's Ukraine envoy, Keith Kellogg, he is going to Kyiv later this week. And then, at some point, the American hope is that the two sides come together, Russians, Ukrainians at the same table.

Big question, of course, what is the European role? Because we did hear Keith Kellogg say just a few days that -- say that they would not be at the table -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Yes, so interesting.

Alex, thank you so much for that. And with us now to discuss this further, we have CNN military analyst

and retired Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton. Also with us is Kevin Baron. He's a national security analyst and former executive editor for Defense One.

I mean, it goes without saying that if two people are in a fight and you were trying to broker some kind of resolution, and you only invited one of them to the discussion, one might feel left out and it could feel unproductive.

I just wonder, Cedric, explain the dynamics here and why it's a problem that Ukraine is not here as an equal partner at these talks.

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes.

We have this tendency, I think, in U.S. diplomatic circles to exclude people who should really be part of the negotiations. And I think of, for example, what happened with Vietnam back in the early 1970s. We excluded the South Vietnamese from a lot of the discussions in Paris for those peace talks.

[13:25:08]

And we risk doing the same kind of thing here with the Ukrainians. This is a really bad idea not to have them as part of the main negotiations and actually every part of the negotiations.

Now, on the other side of that, the Russians probably insisted on not having the Ukrainians there at least for the first meeting. At least, that's my suspicion. And that's something that maybe the administration took into consideration.

But the administration seems to have this proclivity of actually leaving out the Ukrainians. And yet we're talking about Ukrainian land, Ukrainian lives, and the Ukrainian government and its survivability.

SANCHEZ: Kevin, if you believe Secretary Rubio's argument that initially they don't want to have Ukraine and Europe at the table to see if these talks progress and that they will be included once they do, what's the impact of not having Ukraine and Europe there at least initially to start?

KEVIN BARON, FORMER EXECUTIVE EDITOR, DEFENSE ONE: Well, I think this is like the worst marriage counseling ever to have two people talking about you without you there.

I just get back to the Munich Security Conference. And it's not just that the Ukrainians aren't at the table, but, like you said, the Europeans aren't even at the table. So everyone there is questioning what the real motive and the real purpose of the Americans setting this up is.

And, by far, the consensus is this is the Trump team trying to look tough and trying to look like the world leaders that they want to be. They're trying to bring the Russians to the table. It has nothing to do with the Ukrainians. It has nothing to do with the Europeans, other than to make them look less powerful and less important than Trump makes himself look.

So, everyone there -- that's why you saw, you don't have Europe saying thank you, Trump. Thank you for starting these talks and representing us and tell us how well it goes.

We look forward to hearing from you. Instead, you have President Macron in France calling an extraordinary emergency meeting of Europe's leaders to finally talk about a massive increase in defense spending and getting the troops into getting all the ducks in a row to do what Trump has wanted them to do, but also what Europeans like Macron has wanted to do for about five or more years, which is create a new future for Europe on its own that just cannot rely on the United States.

It's not what they want. They would love to rely on the United States, but they can't.

SANCHEZ: Colonel, what do you think is going to be the result of this emergency meeting? Are you going to see folks follow British Prime Minister Starmer in essentially saying that they would sanction their troops in Ukraine as part of a security issue?

LEIGHTON: So there's some interesting developments there. You're hearing a lot of conflicting things from -- among some of the European governments.

And we have to keep in mind that Germany is having an election that's this coming Sunday. So what is said today in Paris may be very different from the reality that comes up after this election takes place. But what I think will happen, at least partially, is the French are definitely on board with making something happen -- happen along with the British.

The Germans have actually opened the door to allowing their troops to serve in Ukraine, which would be an amazing development, given the history of World War II and German forces being in that part of, at that time, Soviet Union. So what the Europeans are realizing is that they have to have a defensive buffer and Ukraine is going to be that physical buffer.

They're also going to, I think, use their troops. They're going to get to that point where they can say yes to many of their troops going at least to the border areas if -- of NATO and Ukraine and possibly even in Ukraine if the correct peace mechanism can be developed.

If that can't be developed, then it gets to be a much murkier situation. But I think this is definitely a possibility for us.

KEILAR: Kevin, I wonder what you think about Russia's negotiating position here, because you have the foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov, who's key in these talks, implying that Moscow's going to give nothing, they're not going to compromise on anything.

But it's not like Russia's in the best position. They have made a lot of territorial gains for sure, right? And that puts them in a position of strength. But they have lost so many people and the economic picture at home for Putin is pretty terrible. So how are you seeing their -- how their position is?

BARON: I would zoom out wider.

I'm a guy who keeps thinking of guys like Robert Gates, who will talk about what Putin really wants is that imperial Russia of hundreds and thousands of years. He doesn't just want these slices of land that people are talking about. So zoom out.

And even if some agreement is made where Ukraine has to give up some bit of land and people start talking about, is it a win for one, is it a win for another, the way the Europeans are talking about this already today is, look, if you, if you take away the pressure that Russia has to face in Ukraine, they're only going to come for us.

The Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, that's their big worry, is, hey, there's a, there's a major realignment of forces going on, both metaphorical forces and alliances and NATO power and the actual troops on the ground.

And so, if Trump wants to pull Americans out of those Baltic states, and maybe put something more in Poland, but also force the -- force the Europeans to send their troops one way or another, the Europeans are thinking, better to have everybody facing and -- and making Russia devote all those resources you're talking about to Ukraine.