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Source: DOGE Team Seeks Access To Personal Taxpayer Data At IRS; Fed, Workforce On Edge Amid Layoffs, DOGE Access To Private Data; Delta Plane Has "Landing Incident" At Toronto's Pearson Airport. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired February 17, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:00:19]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Taxpayer IDs, Social Security numbers and banking information, highly sensitive IRS info that Elon Musk and his DOGE team now want access to. We have new reporting.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Plus, U.S. and Russian officials meeting tomorrow for high-stakes talks in Saudi Arabia over the war in Ukraine, but some important players won't be there, notably Ukraine itself. Why President Zelenskyy says he will not accept any deal that's made without his country at the table.

And deadly winter storms carving a path of destruction across the southeast, but the threat is not over yet. A new round of severe weather set to bring an arctic blast of snow and brutal cold to millions across the country.

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here at CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

KEILAR: There are some serious new privacy concerns today as Elon Musk and his government efficiency team target the IRS. A source telling CNN, DOGE is expected to imminently gain access to an agency database that contains things like personal and financial data of millions of American taxpayers. We're talking Social Security numbers, banking information, tax returns.

This is a system so sensitive, improper use of it could lead to prison time. The move is all part of Musk and DOGE's efforts to drastically shrink the federal workforce. CNN's Jeff Zeleny is live for us near President Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate in West Palm Beach, Florida.

Jeff, what's the White House saying here?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, Brianna, the White House is defending this latest agency for DOGE to have access to. We've seen it really week by week, day by day as Elon Musk-led Department of Government Efficiency going across the government.

But the IRS certainly is so different than every other agency because, as you said, it has the personal information, the Social Security numbers, the bank account numbers, even specific personal information like adoption records if you're paying child support, et cetera. So, that is what is causing alarm from so many officials, because usually this information is only accessible by career officials, not political appointees and, of course, that's what this DOGE employee would be.

He's a young engineer who works for Elon Musk and they are looking for government efficiencies. They are trying to streamline programs here. But the White House is pushing back on all this alarm from Democrats in the Senate and elsewhere saying this, White House spokesman Harrison Fields is saying, "Waste, fraud and abuse have been deeply entrenched in our broken system for far too long. It takes direct access to the system to identify and fix it."

So, they go on to say that this is needed to really go deep into the IRS systems to fix it. But the question here is, what will be done with this information? So, Senators Elizabeth Warren and Ron Wyden are calling on the IRS commissioner to present a plan for the type of access that DOGE would have. Of course, this is all coming as the government is being constricted. Of course, we heard about last week those mass firings, questions about that at the IRS as well

Of course, during a tax season, as everyone is preparing to file their tax returns, this is something that's on top of mind. But again, the White House is defending this as the President is spending a long weekend here near Mar-a-Lago. Brianna?

KEILAR: All right. Thank you, Jeff. I just got caught yawning at the -- as you were tagging out there. But your report was fascinating and I just want you to know that. Thank you so much. Boris?

SANCHEZ: As Elon Musk puts U.S. agencies on the chopping block, paranoia is seeping into the federal workforce. In recent days, the Trump administration has fired thousands of federal workers as Musk and the DOGE team gain access to agency computer systems containing private information. The unprecedented moves are leaving many on edge, worried about what may come next. CNN's Sean Lyngaas is here with his new reporting.

Sean, what are you hearing from employees about what's happening?

SEAN LYNGAAS, CNN CYBERSECURITY REPORTER: Well, Boris, we talked to over a dozen federal workers from over five agencies and they all sounded a consistent theme of concern, paranoia, newfound concerns that they're being watched. Now, discerning a reality from that paranoia is a little difficult. We asked the White House if any policies had changed for monitoring communications and they didn't directly answer the question. They said no laws were being broken and that Elon Musk and DOGE were looking to root out fraud, waste and abuse.

[15:05:03]

However, we already see this as having a big impact on the workforce. We're talking about people who are not having the conversations that they would normally have at work out of fear that it might be misconstrued as somehow anti-Trump. People are turning off their phones all the time. People are going to the water cooler to have conversations in person rather than have them on a web chat, for example.

And we asked one VA employee if they really thought that they were being recorded in the office and they said no, but is it impossible? Of course not, because you told me, you know, if you told me that a 19-year-old by the name of "Big Balls" would be accessing State Department information, I would say you're crazy if you told me that a month ago.

So, there's this newfound fear and concerns that are already affecting people's behavior. And Boris, they also might affect how -- about government record keeping as well, because less information transmitted over government email and work device means less FOIA responses, less transparency in the long run for the federal government, Boris.

SANCHEZ: Yes, really important point. Sean Lyngaas, thanks so much for the report. Brianna?

KEILAR: And joining us now to talk about the impact, the very real impact that all of this is having on government employees is Nicholas Detter. He's a federal worker who received a termination letter as the Trump administration carries out its widespread layoffs.

Nicholas, thanks for being with us.

Just to let our viewers know, you were a natural resource specialist for the National Resource Conservation Service. You accepted that buyout offer and then just last week you got a termination notice. When you initially accepted the buyout offer, what did you hear?

NICHOLAS DETTER, FEDERAL WORKER WHO RECEIVED TERMINATION LETTER: So, when I first accepted the buyout offer -- and the first thing I want to say is I wasn't planning on accepting the buyout offer. I love my job. I think it has a valuable impact on my community. But I took it because three days before the initial deadline, I received an email that said because I was a probationary period employee, they couldn't guarantee me my job after the buyout window closed.

So at that point, it was kind of like risk taking the buyout or, you know, just risk getting fired and getting nothing. And so, when I sent in my buyout -- the email that's saying I was accepting the terms of the buyout offer on Wednesday, February 5th, all I've received and all -- any of my supervisors have received to this point was an email later that day unsigned from the Office of Personnel Management, which is HR for the federal government, that just said, we have received your email and we will contact you shortly. And it's been 12 days and I still haven't heard anything except that, you know, like you said, last Thursday, I found -- they said I was fired and terminated, which was, you know, the whole point of taking the buyout was for that not to happen.

KEILAR: Okay. So, do you get the buyout? Do you get essentially the severance? DETTER: I have no idea. Nobody knows. None of my supervisors know. You know, I've talked to some other reporters and there's been some reporting that supposedly the OPM and the federal government stance at this point is that employees that received the termination letter that did accept the buyout, that it was an accident. But again, it's been four days and I haven't heard anything to the contrary. I actually, for the first time today, heard from another employee who's in a similar boat to me and they haven't heard anything.

And just -- I mean, to be honest, the whole process has been very chaotic and very disorganized. So, it's kind of hard to trust that they're going to come through at this point. It's just -- until I receive like confirmation in writing otherwise, I -- it's hard to say if I will.

KEILAR: Yes. I mean, that's sort of what we've been hearing from a lot of federal workers. They just don't know where to turn for information and they're really -- it's pretty limited. You said you were hearing from someone that may be getting let go or fired after doing the buyout might have been a mistake. Who told you that or is that just a rumor?

There was some reporting, but I talked -- I was a part of an article with the AP, I guess that was back on Friday. And the reporter I was talking with to -- at the AP said that the official stance of OPM is that employees that were fired was -- it was done in an accident. But that's -- again, I haven't received anything official from any of my direct supervisors ...

KEILAR: Yes.

DETTER: .. or from the OPM.

KEILAR: So, Nicholas, tell us how you're feeling. I mean, I think a lot of people think of -- there's been this kind of caricature of federal workers painted as like all these people, these bureaucrats in Washington, D.C., you're clearly not -- there you are, you're in Kansas. We see the locator. It's like, how are you feeling about this and what does this mean for a lot of people who are in places like you?

DETTER: Yes, absolutely. You know, I think you're exactly right that there's this caricature of federal employees as either lazy or just trying to get a grift. And in my experience, working for the federal government, that's not what it's been. You know, I work in a rural Kansas county working with farmers to try to improve the health and sustainability of their land.

[15:10:02]

I work with a veteran who was also a probationary period employee who has a kid coming in May and he got laid off, and he didn't take the buyout. And he -- I mean, they're -- I feel so much for the employees that are probationary period employees that didn't take the buyout, because I don't know if they're going to get anything. I don't -- I mean, currently, they -- we've gotten no guidance on how much longer they're supposed to get paid. We've got a little bit of guidance that maybe they're going to get health insurance for another month. But I mean, like I said, he's got a kid coming on the way in May, so -- and I just -- I really ...

KEILAR: And he's a veteran? So, you -- he's a veteran?

DETTER: Yes, he's a veteran. Yes, he's a veteran of the U.S. Army, correct. Yep.

KEILAR: Well, so I think a lot of people also don't realize that is that a huge chunk, I think almost a third of the workforce are veterans. So, it sounds like there are a lot ...

DETTER: Absolutely.

KEILAR: ... of people, including veterans, who are facing circumstances that you're facing.

DETTER: Absolutely, yes.

KEILAR: So, where do you go ...

DETTER: You know, if the federal workforce is -- oh, yes, I'm sorry. Can't -- do you want me to answer that question?

KEILAR: No, that's okay. Yes. Where do you go from here, Nicholas?

DETTER: You know, I'm really fortunate. I'm really blessed that I have a lot of family and friends that are supportive of me, that I have -- you know, I already have a few other job opportunities lined up, but there's a lot of people -- I'm in a better position than a lot of people. I mean, they're -- like I said, I got -- there's a lot of people in the federal government, you know, outside of D.C. They work in rural areas where there's not a whole lot of other job opportunities. There's, you know, it's just -- I think there's just a lot of uncertainty and a lot of fear.

And I just want to -- I want to make clear that it's -- those are the people I want people to be thinking about. And think about what it was -- oh, I remember I was going to say there's a lot of people I work with that picked up their lives and moved to these rural communities in the last year to take these jobs that aren't from Kansas or, you know, wherever else. And they don't have any -- I'm from Kansas. I'm lucky that I have other connections, other resources.

But I know people that move from Texas and Indiana to these small rural communities in Kansas that got laid off last week and they don't have any other connections in those communities. And so, I just really want people to understand that, that most federal workers, I'm not I'm not going to pretend that there's no room for improvements and efficiency or that there's zero waste, fraud and abuse in the federal government. But most federal workers, in my experience, do their job because they find it valuable, meaningful work and maybe even turn -- I mean, like in my case, I turn down opportunities in the private sector that would have made me more money.

So, I just want to make that clear to people that most federal workers, at least in my experience, are patriots, are proud Americans or do their job out of duty and service to their community and their country. And I just -- whatever -- wherever you stand politically, even if you think that the government should be shrunk, like, I hope we can all agree that this isn't the way it should be done and that people have been treated very poorly throughout this whole process.

KEILAR: Well, Nicholas, it is great to hear from you, a person who's actually in the thick of it and can tell us what's going on and how it's affecting you.

Nicholas Detter, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us.

DETTER: Thank you, Brianna.

KEILAR: And still to come this hour, American officials are getting set for pivotal talks with Russia on ending the war in Ukraine. What Ukraine's president is saying about his country's participation really lack thereof.

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SANCHEZ: We have breaking news to CNN. We've just learned that emergency teams are responding to a landing incident involving a Delta flight at Toronto Pearson Airport.

KEILAR: Yes. I mean, we're calling it a landing incident, but this is really serious. We have CNN's safety analyst David Soucie with us.

It appears to be -- I mean, you tell us what you're seeing in these pictures, David. They're from afar. But we could see kind of wheels that are not -- that looks upside down.

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: Yes, it looks to me like some kind of landing gear issue on the way down. So, I -- but then, it could have slid off the runway to its -- really too preliminary to tell. I don't have very many pictures or videos of it at this point. But it certainly is serious. We know that there are accidents. We don't know if there's any fatalities yet. But we do know that there are injuries, so we're waiting to see right now as this unfolds.

SANCHEZ: Yes, I guess a positive sign. The camera appears to be shifting elsewhere. But a positive sign as we were looking at the scene, it did not appear -- and there it is again, it did not -- it doesn't appear that there are apparent flames and it doesn't look like there's a ton of activity going on around the fire trucks. In other words, you don't see firefighters racing toward flames, so that appears to be a good sign.

Again, we're still learning exactly what happened here and what -- if any danger, passengers or others may be facing. But David, I wonder you mentioned that it could be some sort of landing gear in previous situations where you've seen scenes like this.

And again, this is from far away, so we're sort of discerning what we're looking at. When a plane is on a runway that appears to be frosted over, what would it take for it to flip?

SOUCIE: Well, aircraft have thrust reversers. So, you would think like if you're driving in your car and you apply the brakes that you'd start losing control or slips and you have anti-skid on them and that sort of thing. Airplanes also have anti-skid, but there's only two of the wheels. The main trucks are the ones that have the brakes on them, the nose wheel doesn't.

[15:20:02]

So, as you're stopping, you're relying on those. But above that, you also have thrust reversers and nearly every commercial airplane has thrust reversers that even when you're on an icy runway like that, you pull the engines back and it literally pushes thrust forward out of the aircraft so that it's slowing the aircraft down as it goes. And you can control left and right with that as well by controlling the airplane thrust reversers as to how much power goes to which engine.

So, in that -- in those cases, when you're landing, then you can control the slip the way that you go and maintain that runway and stay on the runway. In this case, it looks like that got off the runway in some way. Now, the reason that I mentioned that about the landing gear is that these trucks seem to have been there already waiting for the aircraft to land. That happens only when you've already declared an emergency and that you expect something to happen when you land.

So, the fact that they were there that quickly, it tells me that there may have been some kind of problem before the landing itself.

KEILAR: And David, we're joined also by Mary Schiavo, who's CNN Transportation Analyst.

Mary, tell us what you're seeing. We should also note for folks who are unaware, this is Canada's busiest airport, isn't it?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN TRANSPORTATION ANALYST: It is, Toronto Pearson, and I've worked some other accidents there, some other cases. And in prior, and I'm not saying what happened here, but in prior accidents that I've worked on where the plane has gone upside down, just as David said, usually it meant they have left the runway. Sometimes they hit an embankment and the embankment then causes it to be unstable. There was a very famous one where it went upside down in San Francisco, oh, boy, almost a decade ago and it hit the seawall coming in and cartwheeled.

Same thing in Sioux City, Iowa, it cartwheeled upon landing or not -- I haven't even had time to check all the weather yet. If there was a tremendous crosswind gust, and this is a big F, but -- and you can tell this from the weather radar, if there was some weather at the very last minute with gusting combination with the gear problem, as David mentioned, that could flip a plane. SANCHEZ: I also wonder, Mary, if you could, we know that the NTSB has its hands full with a number of recent incidents here in the United States. What is it like to coordinate with another government, obviously Toronto Pearson Airport, as you noted, has had prior accidents. This was a flight that was coming from the United States, we understand.

SCHIAVO: Yes.

SANCHEZ: What's it like to coordinate an investigation and figure out exactly what happened when it's a different country?

SCHIAVO: Well -- yes, well, with Canada, we're very fortunate. United States NTSB and Canada Transport worked together hand in hand many times at the accident in Toronto Pearson, oh boy, that's probably about 12 or 15 years ago. In that case, literally the plane burned completely. There was nothing left of it.

SANCHEZ: Wow.

SCHIAVO: But everyone survived. So, they have great response teams there. They're -- you know, they're a major, major aviation nation on par with us. So, they're used to doing these investigations. They've had many they've had to investigate, including foreign ones. Remember they've had a couple airline -- flights that were bound for Canada that were shot down and so they're very experienced.

The NTSB will have no difficulty and the NTSB will not be lead. Canada will be lead because that's the law. The accident happened in Canada and they'll take the lead on it. The NTSB won't have a problem.

KEILAR: All right. Just to update our viewers on what's happening here, Delta -- a Delta plane has had what is called a landing incident. That's what it's being referred to at Toronto's Pearson airport.

This is a tweet from the airport: "Toronto Pearson is aware of an incident upon landing involving a Delta Airlines plane arriving from Minneapolis. Emergency teams are responding. All passengers and crew are accounted for."

This is a Delta plane that is upside down on the runway. This is a serious incident that has happened. You're hearing officials there and these are some new pictures that give us a clearer look. And you can see there is some fire damage that appears to have been contained there. Certainly some damage there on the right side by that engine.

But when they say that everyone's been accounted for, we're obviously going to be stressing to see what kind of condition everyone is accounted for: Is everyone alive? Is everyone well?

Let's bring in our CNN Aviation Correspondent, Pete Muntean.

Pete, this looks pretty horrific from this side of things.

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Pretty stunning images here, Brianna, from Toronto Pearson International Airport. It looks like this crash involved a Delta flight operated by regional airline, Endeavour Air. Delta 4819, according to the flight tracking data from FlightAware and Flightradar24, left Minneapolis around 11:34 Central Time, a little bit late.

[15:25:07]

Arrived in Toronto Pearson 12:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, so a little more than an hour ago. The weather at Toronto Pearson is a bit challenging. And right now, according to the notice to pilots, all of the runways at Toronto Pearson Lester B. Pearson International Airport are closed because of this incident.

Let's just check the weather here really quick on ForeFlight. From 25 minutes ago, winds out of the west at 27 knots gusting to 35 knots. You can see the blowing snow there. So, a pretty big challenge for pilots landing looks like to the southwest, according to the flight tracking data, with a bit of a crosswind.

Big question here, of course, will be the conditions. As the NTSB equivalent in Canada, the Canadian Transportation Safety Board, will look at this. Obviously, the fuselage is upside down. That's the body of the airplane. We're looking now at the left side of the aircraft. This is a CRJ900, a Canada Regional Jet 900, in the configuration for Delta Airlines, seats about 70 to 76 people.

And you can see the crash fire rescue crews there. Clearly, they had to be dispatched to this crash. Hats off to them. Good job. It looks like they did a nice job of containing what may be a bit of a fire here. I'm seeing a bit of smoke. Can't quite tell if that is the exhaust of -- from one of the crash fire rescue trucks. You can see one -- another one coming in now.

Of course, very challenging conditions there with the wind and the snow. Still trying to get a little bit more information here from Delta Airlines about what may have caused this. But we do at least know from the airport that all people on board, all souls in the aviation parlance have been accounted for. And that is especially good news after the tremendous, unprecedented accident after accident involving commercial and private jets here in the United States.

Of course, this is right over the border and there will no doubt be American help to try and figure out what went wrong here, seeing as though this flight left the continental U.S., according to the flight tracking data, left Minneapolis earlier this morning or afternoon East Coast Time. Still appears to be some fire response on the scene there. I just counted at least three fire trucks off the frame to the left on this live feed from CTV.

Also a foam truck there on the left that is so critical to fighting aircraft fires, which are so different than fighting a normal house or building fire. You have to put out the intense heat of burning jet fuel. And it does look like there is some singeing there. You can see on the top of the screen, obscured a bit by the truck there, that's the bottom of the fuselage. It looks like there was at least a little bit of a fire there and then also a little bit of a fire there in the tail of the plane, the right side of the screen, which is the back left side of the fuselage and the tail-mounted engines there on the CRJ900.

So, of course, a lot still developing here by the moment and we are getting more information in all the time. The spot-shadowed image there shows a bit further away what is the scene of this crash. That is the fuselage there. You're looking a bit down the nose. It doesn't look like much. And so now the question will be where is the debris field, where are the wings and where is the tail.

And this is something that investigators will look at very closely as they piece together exactly what went wrong here. Right now, way, way, way too soon to speculate on any sort of a cause, but we -- you can see the windsock there at full mast. That is a pretty strong and stiff wind there at Toronto Pearson International Airport as we get the images in now from social media. The live picture shows what looks to be a pretty good fire there and the melting of the fiberglass cowling around the engine, that's the left engine and you can see some remnants of maybe fire suppression foam or maybe snow.

I can also even make out a little bit of the tail number, the N number for the registration of this aircraft. We're standing by to hear more from Delta Airlines about the status of the passengers here. But we do know at least from Toronto Pearson International Airport that all are okay on this apparent incident on landing earlier today, about an hour ago.

SANCHEZ: Yes. An enormous relief, as you said, Pete. The airport putting out the statement that all passengers and crew are accounted for. Notable, you can see there the landing gear of the plane apparently, at least on the front end, did deploy as we were speaking a moment ago with David Soucie and Mary Schiavo about the potential for that to have been a factor in what happened.

[15:30:02]

We have with us CNN Aviation Analyst Peter Goelz. He's a former official with the NTSB.