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Toronto Plane Crash Investigation; U.S. and Russia Hold Talks. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired February 18, 2025 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:47]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Key talks without all the key players, the U.S. and Russia at the negotiating table today to focus on how to end the war in Ukraine. But President Zelenskyy says, no one decides anything behind our backs. What we know about these discussions.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Plus: the moment of impact. We're going to show you new videos of a Delta flight crashing in Toronto then flipping upside down and sparking flames.

Passengers now sharing the chaos inside the plane, as we get new details from officials just moments ago.

And the top official at the Social Security Administration quits after refusing to give Elon Musk's DOGE team access to sensitive information.

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

KEILAR: The first day of face-to-face talks between top U.S. and Russian diplomats aimed at ending the war in Ukraine has wrapped up, both sides leaving the negotiating table in Saudi Arabia agreeing on four principles, including working out a deal that all parties support.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARCO RUBIO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: The goal is -- and we agreed on what the goal is -- the goal is to bring an end to this conflict in a way that's fair, enduring, sustainable, and acceptable to all parties involved. What that looks like, well, that's what this -- what the ongoing engagement is going to be all about.

I came away today convinced that they are willing to begin to engage in a serious process to determine how and how quickly and through what mechanism can an end be brought to this war. Whether we can ultimately reach that outcome will obviously depend on every side in this conflict's willingness to agree to certain things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Notably, these high-stakes talks are taking place without the involvement of Ukraine, which was not invited.

Today, Ukrainian President Zelenskyy postponed a trip to Saudi Arabia scheduled for later this week. He says he wants to end the war, but adds that we want it to be fair and that no one decides anything behind our backs.

CNN's Alex Marquardt is with us now from Riyadh.

So, Alex, walk us through where things stand.

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brianna, this was a four-and-a-half-hour meeting at a palace here in Riyadh, and this was meant to, according to the U.S. delegation, really jump-start, reset U.S.-Russian relations that, of course, have been frozen for the past few years.

This is going to be the beginning of a long and complicated process, according to the U.S. delegation. There was nothing concrete decided, no solutions that were agreed upon for Ukraine. And this conversation was not just about Ukraine. I think primarily it was for the United States, because that is the key to unlocking so much more.

But the Russians are seeing it essentially as that reset. So what we have learned from the American side is essentially that four broad points were agreed on. The first, interestingly, is about the embassies in Washington and Moscow. The two countries have not been behaving diplomatically, to say the least, for the last few years, and those embassies have been working at reduced levels.

So they want to get those back up and running in the ways that they're supposed to. Then there's this specific point about Ukraine and delegating, naming high-level officials to carry out the U.S.-Russia negotiation side on the Ukraine question, working towards, of course, a peace deal.

And then, Brianna, they're looking past the war in Ukraine, essentially assuming that, if things go according to plan, that there could be a new day in U.S.-Russia relations, in which there could be, as they say, historic economic and investment opportunities.

Secretary Rubio spoke to that earlier today. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUBIO: Beginning to engage in identifying the extraordinary opportunities that exist should this conflict come to an acceptable end, the credible opportunities that exist to partner with the Russians geopolitically on issues of common interest and, frankly, economically on issues that hopefully will be good for the world and will also improve our relations in the long term between these two important countries.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: Brianna, we now know that President Zelenskyy has canceled a trip here to Riyadh tomorrow. There's a lot of talk about how the Ukrainians and the Europeans are not at the table.

[13:05:08]

The -- Mike Waltz, the national security adviser, pushed back on this, saying the U.S. is constantly talking to its European allies, to its Ukrainian allies. We know that the Ukraine envoy, Keith Kellogg, is going to be in Ukraine for the rest of the week and having meetings with President Zelenskyy and others -- Brianna.

KEILAR: All right, Alex Marquardt in Riyadh, thank you for that.

Let's bring in Matthew Chance, who's also in Saudi Arabia covering these high-level talks.

And, Matthew, I know you spoke with members of Moscow's negotiating team. What are they saying about the talks?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: I mean, they're being pretty positive about them, saying that they welcome the sort of dialogue that's been taking place.

I think, from Russia's point of view, that whatever they get out of this in terms of tangible results or concessions or whatever it is with the bilateral U.S.-Russia relationship, they have already got a win, which is that Russia for a long time has wanted a seat back at the top table of international diplomacy with its high-level delegates meeting face-to-face like this.

And with the possibility of a presidential summit on the horizon, they have certainly got that. And it was that sentiment, that mood that was expressed by the negotiator, Kirill Dmitriev, who's the head of the Russian Sovereign Wealth Fund, that I managed to speak to after the negotiations here in Riyadh had concluded.

Take a listen to what Kirill Dmitriev had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHANCE: So you describe these talks as positive. In what way were they positive?

KIRILL DMITRIEV, MEMBER OF RUSSIAN NEGOTIATING TEAM: I think, again, in the previous administration, there was so much damage done to any communication, any dialogue, any understanding of each other.

CHANCE: The Biden administration.

DMITRIEV: So I think -- Biden administration. So I think we're starting from a very low base. And we have lots of road ahead of us.

But I think the conversation was a dialogue, trying to understand each other's position, respectful dialogue. And that already is a huge accomplishment, no ultimatums, really understanding each other's position.

So, still a long road ahead, difficult road ahead, but definitely Russia and U.S., two very important countries in the world, have started talking together in a positive professional manner.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHANCE: Yes, so, Brianna, the fact that they're talking together is being seen by the Russian negotiators as something that's positive.

I think, sort of stepping back bit, the other big win out of this entire process from a Kremlin point of view is that, for many years, even before the war in Ukraine and the full-scale invasion of that country by Moscow, the Kremlin has been sort of dreaming of sowing discord within the Western alliance.

And the fact that President Trump is pushing so hard and so quickly for a peace deal right now, with Ukraine and the European allies not at the table, to some extent the Kremlin is seeing that dream become a reality. And so that's another win for the Kremlin out of all of this.

SANCHEZ: Matthew Chance live for us in Riyadh.

Thank you so much, Matthew.

Let's dig deeper into these developments with Igor Novikov, a former adviser to Ukrainian President Zelenskyy. Also joining us, Julia Ioffe, a Washington correspondent for Puck News and an expert on U.S.- Russia relations.

Thank you both for being with us.

Igor, first to you on this postponement of Zelenskyy's trip to Saudi Arabia. It had been scheduled for tomorrow. Why do you think it got postponed? Take us inside his thinking.

IGOR NOVIKOV, FORMER ADVISER TO UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: Well, there's a huge smokescreen kind of covering the entire process.

And President Zelenskyy, since he wasn't invited, he is not part of these negotiations, he didn't want to be in the same kind of geography with the American and Russian delegations, not to kind of add to that disinformation that surrounds the entire process.

KEILAR: Julia, set the scene for us, as you see, at these talks. Are they real? I mean, is this substantive? What do you think?

JULIA IOFFE, WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, PUCK NEWS: Well, I think, unfortunately, they're massively substantive just in terms of the meeting itself taking place and the format of the meeting and the fact that Europe isn't at the table, that Ukraine isn't at the table, and that one of the things they have already agreed to is restoring the staffs of the respective embassies in Moscow and Washington.

If you recall, the staffs that were kicked out, the -- quote, unquote -- "diplomats" that were kicked out, the Russian diplomats that were kicked out, were mostly Russian spies under diplomatic cover. So the fact that the U.S. just agreed to let them back into the U.S. is a massive win for Russia. And if you watched Sergey Lavrov's, the Russian foreign minister's

press conference afterwards, it was very much the press conference of a Victor, that the very fact that the U.S. just came back to the negotiating table, didn't get anything in response, that the U.S. bit on this proposal by Kirill Dmitriev that American companies will be allowed back into Russia, et cetera, underscores the point that, for Russians, for Putin, Americans are weak, we're soft, we're cowardly, and we're motivated only by money.

[13:10:10]

And the fact that we're biting on all of this, that the U.S. is biting on all of this, just is proof of concept for Putin, that all he had to do was wait Biden out and get his guy back in the White House, and he's getting everything he wants and more.

SANCHEZ: I wonder, when you hear Secretary of State Marco Rubio say that both sides will have to make concessions, what concessions is Russia ready to make?

IOFFE: I don't think any, and I don't know what concessions they're being asked to make by the Americans.

I think the other point I think that's very interesting is that the whole time Russia has been saying, why do we need Ukraine at the table? Why do we need the Europeans at the table? The Europeans are weak and not substantive. The two superpowers, the U.S. and Russia, should be the ones to decide Ukraine's fate without Ukraine. Ukraine is little and it doesn't matter.

And the U.S. never agreed with that approach, and now we have got a new administration that does, that -- and also concedes that Russia is on par with the U.S., even though it is not economically, militarily, and we just gave that to them, again, for nothing.

KEILAR: Igor, what does Ukraine do? Is it prepared, do you think, to really say no and not agree to something that it feels has omitted it as a real factor?

NOVIKOV: Well, we actually said no back in '22 when -- remember the whole Kyiv and three days' situation, so we -- we are good at saying no.

And I genuinely don't believe there's a deal possible without European Union at the table, without Turkey at the table. So I think what's happening now is the process between the U.S. and Russia. And President Trump, he's a businessman, he's a negotiator.

So the same way you can't win the war without weapons, as was the case, you can't actually make a deal without negotiating. So I don't think anything really bad has happened yet, but when making a deal with the devil, you have to remember the cost comes later.

KEILAR: And also, finally, just, Igor, before we leave, I mean, when you see obviously the land being an issue, the territorial claims, it seems like that is something that Ukraine doesn't want to talk about, but has not been able to regain and actually has been losing ground to Russia on.

Is that a reality that they will have to face and what would that look like that they would have to cede that land to Russia? What would that look like and mean for the future, do you think?

NOVIKOV: Well, to be honest, I don't think first of all, we should separate that issue from all the other issues.

For me, for example, the two more important issues are the security guarantees, because Russia will be motivated to return and claim the whole of Ukraine sooner or later. I mean, that's already a fact. And, secondly, it's important what happens to whatever is Ukraine after this whole process in terms of its future in the West, in terms of the rebuilding process.

Because if it's left there to rot once the deal has been made, it's going to become part of Russia sooner or later. I mean, if it's abandoned, it's going to be Russia.

KEILAR: Igor Novikov, Julia Ioffe, thank you so much to both of you for the discussion. We appreciate it.

And still ahead: some new video showing that moment that a Delta plane crashed in Toronto. Ahead, an update from investigators on what may have led up to that moment.

SANCHEZ: Plus, new CNN reporting on a covert operation. The CIA has been flying Reaper drones over Mexico. We're going to discuss exactly what they're looking for when we come back on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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[13:18:20]

SANCHEZ: New today, some dramatic images are emerging from the terrifying moment that a Delta plane crash-landed at Toronto's International Airport.

Watch this video obtained by CNN. You can see Delta Flight 4819 making a hard landing Monday afternoon, and then it skids down the runway catching fire. The plane then rolls on its roof before coming to a stop. Delta now says 21 people were hurt. Two of them today remain in the hospital.

Thankfully, though, all 80 passengers and crew survived. Officials on the ground there actually just gave an update a short time ago.

CNN's Paula Newton is standing by with the latest from the investigation.

Paula, what can you tell us?

PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, Boris, in terms of updating the investigation, they cannot update many of the crucial details about it, and that is because this is an active investigation. In fact, they said that plane that we're looking at there will remain

on that runway for at least another two days so that investigators can take a look at the site itself. At issue though, Boris, of course, have to be those weather conditions.

Now, no one knows if it played a factor, if it played some kind of a role or played no role at all, but I want you to listen now to Deborah Flint, who is the executive in charge there at the Toronto Airport, talking about what the weather conditions were like, not just on this day, but in the days prior.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEBORAH FLINT, PRESIDENT AND CEO, TORONTO PEARSON INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT: From last Thursday to Sunday, Toronto Pearson saw extreme conditions, two separate snowstorms.

On Thursday and Sunday, we got more than 20 inches, 50 centimeters of accumulated snow. That is actually not typical. In fact, it is more snow within that time window than we received in all of last winter. There were many delays and cancellations across this part of Canada and the U.S. Northeast during this time, creating numerous flight delays and backlogs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[13:20:15]

NEWTON: So on that day that I witnessed for myself on the tarmac, I was delayed about 45 minutes, about an hour before this incident happened.

There was snow blowing everywhere. That doesn't mean that that had anything to do with this incident. But at issue now is the fact that yesterday, and he would not repeat it today, the chief there, the fire chief, was saying that, from what he witnessed, the runway was dry and there were no crosswinds.

Whether or not that bears out in the investigation, we will have to see. But what's crucial here, Boris, is that we learn about what kind of weather conditions may possibly be safe for this airplane, because it is a regional jet that many have described as a workhorse. I'm on them all the time. I'm sure you are as well. What are the conditions?

And we actually had a former NTSB chair head say on CNN the other day that, look, weather may become more of a factor than we know of right now in terms of when we have extreme weather events. It was a blue sky day in Toronto. That does not mean that weather did not impact this flight. And that is what investigators are going to be looking at now.

There are at least 20 investigators from the Transportation Safety Board in Canada on site, but, as well, FAA and NTSB officials as well as the go team, as they call it, for Delta Air Lines. They have so much data now, Boris. They will get to the bottom of this and we expect a preliminary report within a month.

SANCHEZ: Yes, look forward to potentially getting some answers there.

Paula Newton, thank you so much for the update -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Passengers on board that Delta flight also providing key details for investigators. I spoke with two survivors just hours after their harrowing ordeal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN NELSON, PASSENGER: When we hit, it was just a super hard, like a -- hit the ground and the plane went sideways. And I believe we skidded on our side and then flipped over on our back. Where we ended up, there was like a big fireball out the left side of the plane.

It was mass chaos. I was upside down. The lady next to me was upside down. We kind of let ourselves go and fell to hit the ceiling, which is a surreal feeling. And then everybody was just like, get out, get out, get out.

PETE KOUKOV, PASSENGER: We didn't really know anything was the matter, or at least I didn't until the second we hit the ground. There was no real indication of anything. And then, yes, we hit the ground and we were sideways, and then we were upside down, hanging like that.

Some people were kind of hanging and needed some help being helped down. And others -- others were able to get down on their own. And then, yes, we kind of all got off the plane, and everyone was for the most part fine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: CNN transportation analyst and former Transportation Department inspector general Mary Schiavo is here with us now.

Mary, I do want to play that video again, this new video of the plane crashing. We see on approach, to the untrained eye, it looks pretty normal, but we can see here that very hard landing that those passengers described, it quickly turning over on its side, the wings coming off as it rolls onto its back, and a lot of smoke.

Tell us what you are seeing there.

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN TRANSPORTATION ANALYST: Well, I'm seeing what you're seeing, but it does provide a lot of clues.

And I'm also seeing out of the corner of that shot a lot of blowing snow. So the aircraft was coming in very fast, faster than recommended, according to some other reports that we have seen. And it's coming in at such a speed and at such an angle that, well, in flight, as we call it, kind of pancaking.

You literally just smack down on the runway, whereas, if you come in with a regular controlled descent, the back wheels touch first at the same time and then the nose settles in. It's called flaring. But at the report today, at the briefing today, they walked back to

everything being clear and dry of yesterday. And nothing is ever as simple as this. Air crashes are caused by dozens of things. There will be many dozen recommendations. But if this aircraft was coming in and anything, some of this blowing snow, obscured any vision, might explain why they landed at the very end of the runway, why they landed so fast, why they didn't do the flare and slow and a controlled landing.

But I think, given today's briefing, the focus is now back on weather and also what happened in the minutes and seconds before this touchdown, when there were still options, when there was still time to go around, still time to do a missed approach. But that video shows it hit. The landing gear either collapsed, broke off. The right wing broke off. That's when the fireball happened.

And the left wing, remember, is still an airfoil. So it's lifting the plane up, and then it rotates over. And that kind of explains right there on that video what happened. The why, why it happened, is what the investigators are going to do for the coming weeks.

[13:25:10]

KEILAR: And, listen, anyone who's flown a bit has experienced different kinds of landings in different kinds of conditions, right? We have all had that lovely landing...

SCHIAVO: Right.

KEILAR: ... where you just kind of float over the runway and touch down so seamlessly. And then we have had some that hit a little harder.

I guess the question I have for you is, if this were a nice sunny day and it were not very windy, would a landing like that without snow on the runway perhaps providing some slipperiness, could it have been different? I mean, what is that -- what kind of conditions...

SCHIAVO: Sure.

KEILAR: ... and with visibility does that normally create?

SCHIAVO: Well, it can create a lot of conditions. And what we did not hear today and we haven't heard so far is, really, what were the crosswinds?

Because this plane, like every aircraft, has limits. You can only fly in certain of a crosswind, knots of crosswind, and even direct winds. And for landing, the limit's about 35 knots for this kind of aircraft. But on a crosswind with a fouled runway, meaning slippery, snow, ice, et cetera, it can be as low as 15 knots.

And so we didn't hear anything about that today, but that will also be something for the investigators. At the last moments, did you have a burst of flurries? Because the report today said, yes, there were occasional snow flurries. And did you have a crosswind? And that could explain an awful lot.

But a nice clear day when you're floating in and you just touch down so peacefully and quietly, yes, that's what we all hoped for, but this was not their experience, according to the passenger accounts, lots of bumps and gusts, et cetera.

And, of course, once it touched, there were no other options. You could not then do a go-around. You couldn't put full power in, because it lost its gear and immediately a wing and flipped. The options were gone.

KEILAR: Does it tell you anything about how quickly it turned on its side? What is that an indication of?

SCHIAVO: Yes, I mean, that video is going to be very important evidence, because it did happen very quickly, which means that, with the wing gone, your other wing that's left -- it looks like the right one was gone, the left one is left.

I mean, that is moving at a pretty high rate of speed. And that just lifts that side of the plane up. That's what an airfoil does. And so the plane -- what was left of the plane, really, it didn't have a choice at that point. That wing was creating lift, and that caused the plane to turn over. That wing -- wings always want to fly, and that one was still trying to fly.

KEILAR: All right, Mary Schiavo, thank you so much for your insights. We appreciate it.

Coming up: A top federal prosecutor resigns in protest. We will have details on the demand that she refused to comply with.

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