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Election Anxiety; Interview With State Rep. Joe Moody (D-TX); Interview With Chimney Rock, North Carolina, Mayor Peter O'Leary. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired October 15, 2024 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:32:22]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: And joining us now is the mayor of Chimney Rock, Peter O'Leary, who, as I mentioned earlier, holds a nonpartisan seat.

Hopefully, the connection sticks this time.

I want to go back to this claim. I was talking about this false claim the government planning to seize your devastated community and then bulldoze bodies under the rubble. People are actually believing this. How does something like this take root?

PETER O'LEARY, MAYOR OF CHIMNEY ROCK, NORTH CAROLINA: I have no idea.

I mean, it's baffling to me. When I first heard some of these claims being bandied about it's just -- it's just unbelievable that people would say stuff like that, and that -- that would spread it.

And what I found -- and I haven't investigated these too much because I can't waste time on them. But, often, they're coming from people that are in Texas or some other part of the country. And I don't mean to pick on Texas, but they have no idea because they're not here. They're not actually seeing what's happening.

They just see some wild claim on the Internet, I guess, and then they just start spreading it.

BROWN: And then what's that like for you being on the ground? Are residents coming up to you, like, asking you, is this true?

O'LEARY: Well, right here in Chimney Rock, it really doesn't affect the people here.

And I will tell you why, because everybody here is working as hard as they can to clean up and recover and rebuild. I think what it affects is the people outside of us. And it affects people like me that are trying to get stuff done, and now I have to spend time debunking ridiculous claims. And that's really where it hurts is, it just diverts resources and people's attention away from what's real to something that's just absurd.

BROWN: What is the reality on the ground right now? O'LEARY: The reality is that we had a terrible tragedy that we are

all recovering from. We -- a lot of people -- it's been a couple of weeks. So we're -- the shock is kind of wearing off and we're turning to clean up and recovery.

Every local, state, federal agency group I have worked with, it's all about recovery. It's all about rebuilding. I mean, the negative and the stuff about not rebuilding is just absurd, because we haven't seen any of that. There's absolutely no sign of that.

BROWN: Some people on social media have called on militias to target FEMA workers. And those threats caused FEMA to pause operations in some areas for a time.

[11:35:00]

How devastating is that to a community like yours that desperately needs so much relief aid?

O'LEARY: Again, that's probably a great example of how these efforts actually derail real progress, because the FEMA workers are in here trying to help people, and they're trying to get to people. They're trying to go to properties and talk to the property owners and do whatever they can to assist them and to maybe get them the resources they need.

So, anything, anything at all that disrupts that is -- it's just totally counterproductive. And so that's where it goes from being absurd to even evil intent to try and prevent these people from doing their job. And that's really frustrating is when you have FEMA workers that are leaving because their lives are in danger.

And they're people just like us I mean, I have talked to a lot of FEMA workers, and they're from all over the country, and they came here to help. They came here to try and assist people. And when they can't do their job, then the people that need help can't get help.

BROWN: Yes, tell us a little bit more. Bring us into those conversations with them and what they're going through and, like, the fear that they may be feeling with these threats and whether residents there are more distrusting now because of this misinformation.

O'LEARY: I don't think -- people here aren't mistrusting, because the threats, again, are -- they're so overblown. It's all out there in the Internet.

The one person you talked about earlier that was arrested for making a threat, that was a single person. And when I -- I heard some reports of armed militias roaming about, I have seen absolutely no sign of that. I have talked to our sheriff for Rutherford County. They have seen no sign of it. This was a single threat that was found pretty quickly and this guy was arrested.

But, having said that, when you have the threat out there, no matter if it's on the Internet or actual, you have to respond to that threat. But we don't see the -- all this talk about militias and people hunting FEMA, I mean, it's just crazy stuff I have seen online. Absolutely no -- at least in Chimney Rock, there's absolutely no sign of that.

BROWN: What is your message to those who are spreading this disinformation?

O'LEARY: Is stop. My message is stop. Don't spread information that you have no idea if it's true or not.

And if you see something on the Internet and you start spreading it, then you have no idea if it's true. That's -- if -- I don't know how many people -- obviously, these people haven't taken any real journalism classes, but my son is a journalist. And that's the first thing you do, is you don't just start spreading things. You actually go and check it out.

And until you know something for a fact, you shouldn't be spreading it because it's -- chances are it's not true.

BROWN: And it can be harmful and dangerous and hinder recovery efforts that you pointed out.

All right, Mayor. Mayor...

O'LEARY: Absolutely. Absolutely.

BROWN: Mayor Peter O'Leary, thank you so much for your time, and best of luck as you try to rebuild. I know how difficult every single day is for you and for your town.

O'LEARY: Thank you.

BROWN: But we are thinking about you all.

O'LEARY: And let me just add one thing, because you're talking about all the people spreading the misinformation.

BROWN: Sure.

O'LEARY: There are so many people -- far more people are spreading good news and trying to help. So, don't get discouraged when you hear some of this false information. Just recognize it for what it is, that it's just absurd, false information and continue to help, because we do need real assistance.

BROWN: I think that's a really important message, the overwhelming good in the face of the bad.

O'LEARY: Yes.

BROWN: Thank you so much, Mayor.

O'LEARY: You're welcome, absolutely.

BROWN: And if you or anyone you know needs help in the aftermath of Helene and/or Milton, you can apply for federal disaster assistance a few different ways.

You can go online by going to DisasterAssistance.gov, by calling 1- 800-621-3362, or by downloading the FEMA app.

Right now in Texas, there is a desperate fight to save an inmate on death row. Why lawmakers say he didn't get due process and what they're doing to stop this execution. These are coming from lawmakers on both sides of the aisle.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:43:58]

BROWN: Well, this hour, we're watching a last-minute effort to halt the execution of a Texas man convicted of killing his daughter.

His name is Robert Roberson. And, in 2002, he was convicted for the death of his 2-year-old daughter, Nikki, who was diagnosed with shaken baby syndrome after he brought her to the hospital. But his attorneys say that diagnosis was wrong, and they are in court today pushing to have that death warrant thrown out just two days before his execution is scheduled to take place.

Democratic Texas State Representative Joe Moody joins us now.

Representative, you are among 86 bipartisan legislators who signed a letter asking for clemency for Roberson. Tell us why it's so important to you.

STATE REP. JOE MOODY (D-TX): Look, we have to have trust in the systems we've -- that we have got.

This is the ultimate thing that the government can do, take your life. And there are serious questions about whether a crime was even committed by Robert. And so if we're going to use capital punishment, we have to have the right information in front of us.

[11:45:03]

We have to make sure that new scientific evidence is considered, meaningfully considered, and that hasn't happened in this case. And that is something that should concern anybody, no matter what political stripe they're from.

BROWN: In a recent post on X, you wrote in part: "We are barreling towards an execution when a strong bipartisan majority of Texas reps aren't even sure a crime occurred and are very sure a due process didn't."

Which discrepancies about this case are giving you pause?

MOODY: Well, 20 years ago, when Robert was tried, there was something called the shaken baby syndrome, which the science said, A plus B plus C equals intentional murder. That's not the science anymore. The jury never heard about that. They

never heard about the questions that could be raised. If this trial were held today, a number of issues would be raised about the science that was under -- that would be the underpinning of this prosecution.

So the jury never heard that. And the courts in Texas, unfortunately, haven't really engaged with this new scientific evidence meaningfully. And what it could mean, what I think it should mean to people is, we have to put a pause on this execution. We cannot move forward, we can't barrel forward when we know that there hasn't been a real deep dive and look at this scientific evidence.

No one should want that from a system of government, which is why I think you have seen members from the far left end of the spectrum and the far right end of the spectrum join in on this call for clemency for Robert.

BROWN: I want you to listen to what Robert Roberson told CNN about why he was convicted and what led a detective on the case who actually led the investigation to now think he is innocent. Here's -- let's listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Why do you think you were convicted?

ROBERT ROBERSON, CONVICTED IN DEATH OF DAUGHTER: Just because I couldn't explain what happened to her. They said, you're guilty, and the way I was acting funny, because of my autism. I didn't even know I had autism until I was here.

BRIAN WHARTON, FORMER PALESTINE, TEXAS, LEAD DETECTIVE: At the time Robert was in the emergency room with his child, he presented as -- in not a typical fashion, not what you would expect from someone whose child was in such dire straits.

And so it drew the attention of the hospital staff. And then when we arrived on scene, they shared their concerns with us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: What do you think about that? How much do you think a lack of understanding about his behavior at the hospital played a role in his conviction?

MOODY: Oh, I think it's a huge role. And Mr. Wharton is correct.

When they saw a flat affect or someone that didn't seem to be emotionally disturbed by what had happened to their daughter, that all just moved them to the path of guilt, this is a culpable actor, this is someone that did something wrong.

And then when you couple that with science at the time saying that, if these three factors exist, then this child was killed intentionally and then was shaken intentionally, all those things just collapse into a trial that ends in a guilty verdict and it ends with Robert on death row.

But if you look at these things with through the lens of new science and through the lens of people that understand why he might have had a flat affect, why he might not have had an emotionally connected response to his daughter's death, all of those things matter.

We met with Robert on death row. Robert does present in somewhat a childlike way, but he has -- he's very engaging and is thoughtful about where he's at, the situation he's in. And so we're trying to do everything we can do to raise awareness about this case and what I feel is imperative, that we hit pause on this execution.

If we move forward with this, I think we're going to stain the conscience of the Texas justice system forever.

BROWN: You talk about meeting with him and you have said that experience renewed your commitment to fight for him. Tell us more about meeting with him and what that was like.

MOODY: Yes, we had about a 90-minute meeting. A group of Republicans and Democrats came together, met with him on death row, met there to learn.

We had learned about the case. We knew about the case. We wanted to know him. What was -- what were the things in his life that led him to that place? What were things that he wanted us, the messages to take out of prison? What does he want to do with the future if he's given more time than just this week?

And so what we saw that day was the humanity of Robert Roberson. And we wanted to share that with people, because these are not nameless faceless, people that are on death row. This is someone who is certainly suffering in his own way and I think needs the attention, needs the focus. And it's why we have recommitted to making sure that everyone in the state of Texas, everyone that has the potential to put pause on this execution is hearing that message and can see the humanity that we saw when we went behind the prison walls.

[11:50:04]

BROWN: All right, Texas State Representative Joe Moody, we're going to keep covering this. Of course, we're only two days away from his planned execution. Thanks for coming on.

MOODY: Thank you.

And coming up: Are you feeling anxious about the upcoming election? Well, a new poll shows you're not alone. You actually would be in the majority. We have a therapist here with tips on how to protect your mental health.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:55:11] BROWN: Well, if this year's election has brought up feelings of anxiety for you, you are not alone.

A new poll from the American Psychiatric Association finds that 73 percent of people surveyed cite the election as a source of anxiety.

Jonathan Hershfield joins us now. He's the director of the mental health Center for OCD and Anxiety, Sheppard Pratt. He's also the author of several books on OCD and anxiety.

Jonathan, great to see you. I think this is such an important conversation.

JONATHAN HERSHFIELD, CENTER FOR OCD AND ANXIETY DIRECTOR, SHEPPARD PRATT: Thanks for having me.

BROWN: That is a significant amount of people reporting negative mental health effects because of this election, 73 percent.

Does that surprise you?

HERSHFIELD: It doesn't surprise me.

Actually, I was thinking about this. It means slightly more than one out of four people are looking at the situation and thinking, this is fine. So it kind of makes sense. Everybody I know is anxious about the election, and it is sort of the ultimate uncertainty question, right?

So we know that anxiety is a stress response to an unknown fear. You could be afraid of something and say, OK, that's the thing I'm afraid of. What about having a stress response to an unknown fear? How is the election going to turn out? Will I be able to cope with consequences of turning out one way or the other?

And people are getting much more feedback than in times past, right? People are on social media, constantly checking their news feed. And this can be very triggering because it's not just how will it turn out, but uncertainty about how will I cope if it doesn't go my way?

BROWN: So really at the root of all of this is the uncertainty. Are you seeing more of it as you see clients, patients and so forth? And are you seeing more of this kind of anxiety with this election compared to years past? What is it about this particular election that is so anxiety-inducing? '

HERSHFIELD: Well, I think it taps into a part of the human mind that is very uncomfortable with gray areas.

So people are getting into their corners and preferring to think of very black-and-white ways, which is making them look at things through an us-versus-them lens, right?

So people aren't having meaningful conversations with each other about politics, about the future of America. They're actually cutting people out of their lives, cutting them off of their Facebook, because it's too stressful to deal with the gray area about some of the nuances of some of these issues that we're considering.

I would also like to add that this week is OCD Awareness Week. And for people with OCD, many people with OCD struggle with what we sometimes call moral scrupulosity or obsessing about needing to know for sure that they're always doing the right thing. Many people with OCD also have fears about being responsible for causing harm through negligence.

So you have this intense responsibility to know everything about all of the issues, know that you're voting the exact right way, know that your candidate's going to win and that everything's going to go your way, or else it might be your fault. And so dealing with that uncertainty can be very overwhelming for someone susceptible to a condition like OCD.

BROWN: Yes, I mean, you can't really live your life because you're always thinking, I need to be doing more, I'm not doing enough, because if my candidate loses, it's because I didn't do enough in terms of canvassing or putting out social media posts, right?

Is that kind of what you're seeing, that dynamic?

HERSHFIELD: Right. Right.

And it's made a little bit worse by the fact that people are getting the illusion of doing enough by posting on social media a lot, when there maybe aren't actually directly engaged in real conversations about political issues. They're not canvassing, they're not joining communities.

They're just kind of reading things, getting mad at them and then reposting them, and feeling like they're doing something, but feeling like it's not quite enough, in the same way that a door might not feel locked enough and you want to go back and check it multiple times.

BROWN: So what do we do in the age of social media where, as you noted earlier in the conversation, it's in your face all the time. What can people do to help sort of ease some of that anxiety that really can be debilitating day to day?

HERSHFIELD: I think it comes back to, one, normalizing anxiety as part of the human condition, recognizing, OK, this is more anxiety than is conducive to healthy living right now.

So what I'm going to do is set some boundaries around the things that are unnecessarily triggering my anxiety. So this isn't avoiding your fears. It's setting some limitations around how often or for how long you're going to look at your social media news feed, or to be more intentional, like, I'm going to set aside this time and actually go to this Web site and read this thing, and then I'm going to turn it off and go spend time with my family or go spend time in nature.

And then, of course, if you're getting overwhelmed, you could practice meditation, paced breathing, down-regulation skills, grounding skills, anything that kind of makes you feel in touch with the present moment because a lot of this anxiety has to do with the future, right? The election's coming up in a few weeks and we can't predict the future. We see all these polls sort of suggesting that we could predict the future, but we know that we can't, and that stresses us out.

BROWN: Yes.

HERSHFIELD: So, my strong recommendation is, if you notice that you're getting overwhelmed with election anxiety, it's OK. The election is going to happen no matter what, right?

BROWN: Yes.

[12:00:00]

HERSHFIELD: So, the thing to do now is to pause and connect with your values and the people that you really care about. And don't avoid those difficult conversations.

BROWN: All right. Jonathan Hirschfeld, thank you. Great advice. Hope it helps everyone. And thank you all for joining us. I'm Pamela Brown. You can follow me on TikTok, Instagram, X, @PamelaBrownCNN. Stay with us. Dana Bash with Inside Politics starts now.