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CNN International: Israeli Sources: Man Believed To Be Hamas Chief Yahya Sinwar Killed In Routine Gaza Operation; IDF Checking DNA, Fingerprints To Confirm If Hamas Leader Killed; IDF Investigating Whether Hamas Chief Sinwar Killed in Gaza. Aired 11a-12p ET
Aired October 17, 2024 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[11:00:00]
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN Breaking News.
RAHEL SOLOMON, HOST, "CNN NEWSROOM": Hello, and welcome to our viewers from around the world. I'm Rahel Solomon live in New York.
I want to get straight to our breaking news this hour. The Israeli military conducting DNA tests right now to determine whether Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar has been killed in Gaza. Israeli sources tell CNN that IDF forces encountered three militants during a routine operation and engaged them. Sources say that after the battle, troops found a body resembling Sinwar. So, if his death is confirmed, it could be a massive blow to Hamas. Israel considers Sinwar the mastermind of the October 7th attacks, and U.S. officials have long considered Sinwar's death as one of the best chances of the Israel-Hamas war coming to an end.
We have team coverage for you all hour long. Let's bring in Nada Bashir in London, and Oren Liebermann at the Pentagon.
Nada, let me start with you. We got this news a few short hours ago, around 08:30 Eastern Time. It's been a few hours now. What's the very latest that you can share with us?
NADA BASHIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Rahel, we are still waiting for yet more updates from the Israeli military. It could be a matter of hours until they are able to confirm whether this individual killed by the Israeli military, in what is described to have been a routine military operation is, in fact, Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar. We still don't have that confirmed.
But as you mentioned, this was not a large scale intelligence operation or intelligence-led operation, but rather Israeli troops taking part in a routine military operation, and after killing what is said to have been three militants, discovering that one of those militants appeared to resemble Yahya Sinwar. They notified Israeli military officials about this, and those tests and clarifications are ongoing as we speak, as we understand it, according to sources in Israel. But, of course, this, as you mentioned, would be a significant blow to Hamas, if indeed it is confirmed to have been Yahya Sinwar, the Hamas leader.
But, there are also questions around what this will mean for the course of the war in Gaza, whether perhaps this could be a potential off-ramp, whether this will be an opportunity for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to frame and to paint the killing of Yahya Sinwar as a sort of victory for the Israeli military, perhaps an opportunity to move forward with diplomatic processes, with some sort of negotiated deal to bring an end to the war, to release the hostages, and of course, secure a ceasefire in Gaza. It remains to be seen whether that will be an opportunity that is taken by the Israeli government.
We know, of course, that Prime Minister Netanyahu and the Israeli government have continuously reiterated that they intend to cede the war through until their expressed goals are achieved, namely the eradication of Hamas in its entirety. But, we have seen some movement of that, of course. Israeli officials saying that they are open to the idea that, of course, Hamas may live on as an idea where there may still be support for the organization. Of course, controlling the military capabilities is key.
And as we understand it, according to U.S. assessments, Hamas' military capabilities have, of sometime now, been downgraded to a point where they are unable to carry out an attack, a massacre, such as you saw on October 7th. And of course, there has been stalling negotiations. Yahya Sinwar been seen as a key sticking point, a hardline figure in comparison to Hamas' former political chief Ismail Haniyeh, who was, of course, assassinated in July. Again, however, regional leaders have accused Israel of putting roadblocks in the progress of these ceasefire negotiations.
There are many questions as to how this could impact the course of the war, how this could impact civilians, in particular, who are desperate to see a ceasefire, of course, in Gaza. But, again, no confirmation just yet from officials as to whether this individual identified, who has been killed by the Israeli military is indeed Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar.
SOLOMON: Yeah. And as you say, I mean, that's something that we could learn within hours. Nada, standby for me.
I actually want to bring in Nic Robertson, Oren, standby, if you might as well, our diplomatic editor. And Nic, I want to pick up on something Nada said there, the question, one of many that remain right now, as we await for this confirmation if, in fact it comes, or if, in fact, it isn't Sinwar. But, this idea or this question right now of if it is, in fact, Sinwar, what does that mean? What is the significance? What could that mean for the Israel-Hamas war? Does that perhaps, as Nada suggested, create an off-ramp, a symbolic victory for Netanyahu to perhaps work toward a negotiation end, or does the war carry on?
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I mean, how do you see it, Nic?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Look, absolutely, there is a potential here for diplomatic off-ramp, and this is something that diplomats throughout the region and internationally have been looking for. But, it's going to be how much pressure can the United States bring to bear on Prime Minister Netanyahu with whatever it is President Biden wants to achieve here, which is get the hostages home, peace in Gaza, and enter the war in Hezbollah -- with Hezbollah in Lebanon. These are the things that we understand, not to escalate tensions in the region, particularly with the expected strike back of Israel on Iran for Iran's strike two and a half weeks ago. So, all of that.
But, I think the question is too, how much pressure is President Biden willing and able to bring to bear? He is putting his sort of last big diplomatic throws, it seems, into Ukraine and Russia right now. If this is the actual death of Sinwar, then the question really becomes for Prime Minister Netanyahu, do you take this as a victory or -- and I think this is where we're at, at the moment. The realistic assessment probably within the cabinet around Prime Minister Netanyahu is that they have had better success against Hezbollah than they might have anticipated, that they have killed a lot of the leadership, that they are demolishing some of Hezbollah's places along the border, places it says are used to fire into Israel.
I think, overall, the success in Lebanon at the moment is still on the upside, the positive political upside for Netanyahu, certainly the belief in his cabinet is there is more advantage to be taken of Hezbollah's disarray, that there is no need to let off the pressure on Hamas at the moment, and it's unclear what Israel's real objective is in the north of Gaza. They say they're not going for an idea they debated a couple of weeks ago, which is essentially evacuate all the citizens of north of -- in the north of Gaza, and don't let them back. The humanitarian situation there is dire.
So, the indications are to bring it together, that Israel feels that it has the advantage, that it can continue to press, that actually it's not in a hurry to get the hostages back over and above the overarching aims of Netanyahu's very right wing, very nationalist cabinet, and therefore they may not take this as an off-ramp. They may just take it as an opportunity to double down pressure on remaining Hamas leaders, perhaps try and force them more strongly than we've been aware of in negotiations that they absolutely -- we already know the Israeli government says Hamas can be no part of the future, the Palestinian political future, or any future inside of Gaza.
So, therefore, what option does Israel leadership have, in its own views, therefore, but to expel all of Hamas leadership, and they would perhaps take the death of Sinwar, if that's what's happened, as an advantage, to double down on that. I think -- look, I think we have to wait for the dust to settle a little bit, but it really does -- I think, at the moment, a lot of the cards are in the hands of the Israeli Prime Minister and potentially of President Biden.
SOLOMON: Yeah. Nic, standby for a minute.
Let me bring in Oren now. Oren, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin is traveling abroad, as I understand it. He is in Brussels for these NATO meetings. That said, what have we heard, if anything, from the Pentagon? What are you hearing?
OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Not yet at this point. The Pentagon hasn't put out any statements. At this point, the U.S. is waiting for the Israelis to announce confirmation that the person killed here was, in fact, Yahya Sinwar. Obviously, the U.S. doesn't have boots on the ground in Gaza to conduct any sort of their own investigation. So, crucially, the U.S. will have to wait until the Israelis finish the IDing of Sinwar, finish the DNA, finish the fingerprinting, to come to any sort of conclusion of their own and the U.S. may want to do its own assessment based on the information the Israelis give them to confirm that this was, in fact, Yahya Sinwar, before proceeding here.
President Joe Biden, on his way to Europe, was just briefed by National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan on the latest developments here, but the U.S. not putting out any statements here ahead of the Israelis, because it is up to Israel and the IDF and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to confirm the crucial piece of information that this was Sinwar.
Where do we go from here? And this is just building on what we heard from Nada and from Nic. The U.S. has long seen Sinwar, not only as a as a stumbling block, but effectively as a dead end for negotiations. The negotiation process itself has effectively been on ice for weeks, if not even a bit longer than that, and because largely of not seeing any progress with Sinwar. Certainly, the U.S. has seen Netanyahu as his own, or creating his own set of roadblocks and stumbling blocks to proceed with negotiations and get to a final ceasefire. But, it was Sinwar who was seen as the key piece here.
With him gone, there may be an opportunity for some sort of progress. The U.S. may look at that as a way forward. But, of course, that comes with its own challenges, because if you're going to negotiate, you need someone to negotiate with.
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And Sinwar centralized so much of Hamas' power in himself that there wasn't a clear succession plan. So, not only do you need to create that process, you need to create a mechanism to create a succession plan here and before there is any real progress. So, you may have to see that play out, and that, in and of itself, takes time. The U.S. trying to figure out what that succession plan might look like, who might be next that they have to deal with, who might lead negotiations on the side of Hamas, if there is to be a renewed and final push towards a ceasefire here. So, very complex moments.
Of course, the death, the killing of Sinwar is a crucial part of this one. You are likely to see hailed by the administration, and of course, from Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin, when he puts out a statement here. So, look, we'll look for that. We'll look for statements from the White House and the State Department as well here as the day moves on.
SOLOMON: Yeah. You have to wonder, Oren, and we'll leave it here for now. We'll talk about this a little later, perhaps the role now of his brother, Yahya Sinwar's brother, Mohammed, if, in fact, he was with him, if he wasn't, what role he may play.
Oren Liebermann will leave it here. Nada Bashir, thank you. We will leave it here. I will see you soon.
I want to now get some perspective from a retired colonel in the IDF, Miri Eisin. She is a Senior Fellow with the International Institute for Counter-Terrorism. Wonderful to have you today. Thank you so much.
I want to start first with the big picture, and actually, I'll get to that. I actually really want to start with what you make of the idea the IDF saying that this was actually a part of a routine sort of patrol or routine operation, and that this may not have been an intelligence sort of led operation. As someone who has served in the Israeli intelligence community, what do you make of that? What's your reaction to that? Just how this went down.
MIRI EISIN, ISRAEL DEFENSE FORCES (RET.), & SENIOR FELLOW, INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR COUNTER-TERRORISM: So, Rahel, first of all, I mean, I'm going to talk about the hostages in a moment, because that's the top issue right now. The IDF has been acting inside the area of the Gaza Strip from October of last year, that's almost a year, the Hamas attack that was masterminded by Yahya Sinwar and his brother Mohammed that you mentioned before, that attack itself that came out of the Gaza Strip, they relied, they, the Hamas, Yahya Sinwar, and all of that terror army on the enormous infrastructure that they built there that allowed mobility.
And what the IDF has been doing in the ground forces throughout this time period is that they're trying to sever, to destroy that underground subterranean mobility that was given to them by the tunnels. And in this case, that's something you do systematically, quietly with the regular forces. And that seems to be what happened here, and that's supposed to happen in any place. And I'm not surprised by that. I think that Yahya Sinwar was a man who lived in the shadows, tried very much not to show his face, certainly not in the last year.
But, if you allow me for a moment, Rahel, I just want to highlight the 101 hostages. You're talking about grand strategy with Oren. You're talking about it with Nic. All of you are talking, and I'm talking about 101 people who were taken from their homes, from their -- from a party, from the military bases at -- in the morning of October 7th, and we don't know who is there, and Yahya Sinwar masterminded that plan. And so, it's not just an opportunity. It's an opportunity to know what is going on with the hostages. Maybe somebody else will, yes, be able to bring us some answers about them after a year or week.
SOLOMON: Yeah. No. Listen, it's a fair point, and it bears repeating that at the heart of this that remain in Gaza are those 101 people, and let's turn our attention there, since you bring it up. What does this mean for them, if this was, in fact, the death of Yahya Sinwar, we should say? Netanyahu has said that at this point there were, quote, "no signs of harm to the hostages in the encounter in question." But, what happens to the hostages?
EISIN: So, it's interesting that this Prime Minister, really the only statement he has put out so far, because nobody has confirmed that Yahya Sinwar himself was killed, is that there were no hostages in the area, because the hostages are at the heart of what's going on. We can call it the war of Israel against Hamas. Hamas initiated an attack, took 256 people, and that number that I'm giving you is the Israeli number. We don't actually know who is there. They've never been visited. Nobody has ever seen them. Hamas have never given their names.
So, when you ask about those hostages, and on Israeli TV, they're showing the families, the fathers, the mothers, the children that you have there, over 15 young women. I don't even want to think about what they've gone through in the last 378 days. And Yahya Sinwar is the one who masterminded that plan, and Hamas under him views the hostages as bargaining chips in the worst way possible. And I'm going to hope, and that's the opportunity that when Yahya Sinwar is not around anymore, and I'm not going to miss him, that he -- that whoever will be now will be somebody.
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This isn't about suddenly Hamas changes who it is, but somebody who is willing to negotiate in real time about real people, the 101 Israelis that were taken so brutally, and to try to get to an end of that, to some kind of closure on that. And I want to give the flip side, if I may, and I breathe in deep and say, I'm more worried that Hamas, the terror organization, who views these hostages only as bargaining chips, will now go and just execute them because they're bargaining chips, and that's my horrific fear that they would do something like that. They are a terror organization, and Yahya Sinwar was at the head of that, and I'm very worried about what could happen to them.
SOLOMON: Well, that is certainly a chilling fear. I'm sure you would agree with that assessment.
But, Miri, let me ask, I mean, do you believe, because the question that you're hearing sort of wrestled with and grappled with the last few hours is, strategically, does this give Netanyahu a sort of symbolic victory? Does this create perhaps a bit of an off-ramp to sort of wind down operations there? And I'm just curious, as someone who has the perspective, the insights, the experiences that you do, what do you think?
EISIN: I do. I think that it gives not just the Prime Minister himself, because in this case, we have a government which is made up out of different political parties, and we're in this war that we never asked for. We don't want. We don't want to be in it. And I know that everybody wonders in that sense, if the Prime Minister wants the war. I don't think that even this Prime Minister wants the war.
And what this allows here is that from the beginning, it was also about Yahya Sinwar, and his death, assuming that he is dead, does give that opportunity, and I call it an opportunity, again, to focus on the 101 hostages, because that's what brings about the end, everything else, in that sense, with what we always say, destroying Hamas. It's about their terror military capabilities. They're not being able to do another October 7th. And for that matter, Hezbollah not being able to do on October 7th, which is what Hezbollah was planning to do up north. So, it allows and opens up that door.
But, what I'd like to hear perhaps a bit more is everybody talking about what Hamas and the leadership planned, executed, wanted, that aspect of it, because everybody is talking about pressuring Israel, and nobody is talking about pressuring Hamas, and there is a disconnect there that I find very hard as an Israeli. So, it's an opportunity, but let's talk about pressuring Hamas as well.
SOLOMON: I think the question remains at this point, what does Hamas even look like? Who is at the top of Hamas if, in fact, this was Sinwar?
Miri Eisin, well, we'll have to leave it here, but we appreciate your insights and perspectives today. Thank you.
EISIN: Thank you, Rahel.
SOLOMON: Yeah. We're going to have much more on this breaking news straight ahead, including a look at what Sinwar's possible death could mean for the Israel-Hamas war.
We'll be right back after a short break.
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SOLOMON: Welcome back. And I want to get to our breaking news.
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Israeli sources tell CNN that a man believed to be the Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar has been killed in Gaza. The Israeli military conducting DNA tests right now and checking fingerprints. The sources say that IDF forces encountered three militants during a routine operation and engaged them. The sources say that, after the battle, troops found a body resembling Sinwar. Now, if confirmed, this could be a massive blow to Hamas. Israel considers him the mastermind of the October 7th attacks, and U.S. officials have long considered Sinwar's death as one of the best chances of the Israel-Hamas war coming to an end.
We're joined now by CNN Global Affairs Analyst Kim Dozier. And Kim, I want to pick up there, the idea from U.S. officials that the fate of a deal could be in the hands of Sinwar. I mean, that is, in fact, what Secretary of State Antony Blinken previously said, that the fate is in Sinwar's hands. What do you see the implications or ramifications of this possibly being Sinwar, being, moving forward for the war?
KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, this could either be the best possible news for the hostage families who are waiting for 101 loved ones, not all of them believed to be alive, to get out of Gaza, but it could also cause Hamas to further entrench itself in extremism, and just like Hezbollah, after it lost Nasrallah to an Israeli attack, could make negotiations harder. What the hostage families are calling for right now is that the Israeli government used this opportunity to seal a deal and sort of take the win, stop the continuing operations inside Gaza. Pull out and get the families out. Now, we have to see, will Hamas, or whoever follows Sinwar, if he is indeed dead, will Hamas agree to that?
SOLOMON: Yeah. Kim, my last guest made the point that there is a lot of focus this morning on, will this persuade Benjamin Netanyahu, will this persuade the Israelis to perhaps take an off-ramp? But, she sort of made the point that, what about pressuring Hamas? And my question is, is there someone that is already waiting in the wings, whether it is perhaps his brother, if his brother is still alive, Mohammed, or is there -- what is the organizational structure of Hamas at this point? And what do you think the likelihood would be of there being an off- ramp or an end to this?
DOZIER: Well, there was real churn when Ismail Haniyeh, the political leader, was killed inside Tehran. That was an attack attributed to Israel, though not claimed by Israel. And we were surprised to see Yahya Sinwar rise over other potential leaders to take the top post. So, those other potential leaders who were vying for that role, they're still alive. They're still out there. They could still step into those shoes.
But, from the sort of pride point of view on the Israeli side, Yahya Sinwar was actually released after 20 years in prison by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, in a previous term as Prime Minister, in exchange for the release of an Israeli soldier. So, for Netanyahu, having Sinwar off the battlefield would mean he personally could let some of this go. But, he still is surrounded by a very right-wing cabinet that doesn't want any sort of deal with Hamas. So, that's one obstacle, just like whoever is appointed to take over Sinwar would be another obstacle.
SOLOMON: Kim, any sense of the impact to the Palestinians in Gaza? I mean, obviously, Hamas is not just a military group but a political group. Any sense even on their support for Hamas? I mean, independent reporting is not exactly allowed in Gaza right now. So, I mean, how does this affect Palestinians?
DOZIER: Well, some polling in Gaza indicates waning support for Hamas. But, you have to remember, Hamas got into power years and years ago through legitimate elections, but they then canceled future elections. So, some calculations say that fewer than 30 percent or 20 percent of the current Gaza population actually voted originally for Hamas, and no one has had a choice since. So, if we could poll freely inside Gaza and people could answer without being worried who was listening to their reply, maybe we would find rising unrest towards Hamas.
But, the fact matter is, in a war zone where communications, electricity, water, all of those things are disrupted, it's very hard to see who could step into a Hamas political vacuum and take their place and not be cast as some sort of a puppet for the Israelis.
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It would be very hard to find a legitimate power, somebody that is perceived by Palestinians inside Gaza as something born from Gaza and not supported by Israel or puppeted by the Western or outside world.
SOLOMON: Yeah, I think that's a really perfect segue. Before I let you go, Kim, I was hoping that if we took a step back, if you could just sort of put in context who Yaya Sinwar is. I mean, I've heard the comparison that for the Israelis, he is sort of like the U.S. Osama bin Laden. I mean, how would you --
DOZIER: Yeah.
SOLOMON: -- describe him?
DOZIER: Yes. He started early in his career as an enforcer of a radical interpretation of Islamic law inside Gaza. He was jailed for, according to the Israeli court records, killing a few -- four Palestinians, some accused of collaboration with Israel, others accused of apostasy of his firebrand interpretation of Islam. So, that is why he was in jail for so long. While he was in jail for those two decades plus, he learned fluent Hebrew so well that he could watch all the news outlets. He learned the culture.
So, he really understood when he planned the attacks of October 7th, which have been attributed to him exactly when and how to hit the Israelis to inflame their anger, the atrocities that made sure that Israel would do a horrible crackdown on Gaza, which has served Hamas by galvanizing not just the population in the Palestinian world, but across the Arab and Muslim world.
Many have forgotten the Palestinian issue because of the wars of Iraq and Afghanistan, and now you've got a group of young people growing up, this new generation of activists, and some counter-terrorism officials I've spoken to have said a new generation who may be plotting future attacks on Israel and the U.S. because they're so angry and heartbroken over what they're seeing happen in Gaza right now.
SOLOMON: Yeah. It sort of gets to the concern that even if you are to decimate their ability strategically, Hamas defeating an ideology is much more difficult.
Kim Dozier, thank you. We appreciate the time today.
And our breaking news coverage continues in just a moment, Sinwar, again, considered by Israel to be the architect of the October 7th attacks. So, what are the potential impacts if his death is concerned -- or confirmed? I'll speak with an Israeli journalist about it straight ahead.
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SOLOMON: Welcome back. You're watching CNN Newsroom. I'm Rahel Solomon live in New York. Let's get back to our breaking news.
The Israeli military saying that a man believed to be Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar has been killed in Gaza during a routine operation. Sources tell CNN that Israeli forces encountered three militants near a building and engaged them. After the battle, the troops found a body resembling Sinwar's and alerted their senior commanders. Sources say that the IDF and intelligence services are conducting DNA tests right now to determine if it is, in fact, Sinwar. Now, if confirmed, the death will be a huge development, as Israel considers Sinwar the mastermind behind the October 7th terror attacks.
Joining me now from Tel Aviv is Gideon Levy. He is a Columnist for the Haaretz newspaper. Gideon, good to have you again. Give me a sense of how this news is being received right now in Tel Aviv, from what you can see.
GIDEON LEVY, FORMER ADVISOR TO SHIMON PERES, & COLUMNIST, HAARETZ NEWSPAPER: Obviously, being received is quite a bit of joy and satisfaction and pride and many understandable emotions. Sinwar was the symbol of evil for Israel. He was the conductor and the architect of the seventh of October. Israel is happy today, but Israel doesn't think what will be tomorrow.
SOLOMON: And to that point, say more. And what I mean is, do you worry about the fate of the hostages? What do you think about the hostages right now?
LEVY: I don't think much was changed tonight, as Israel put them in a lower priority for one year now. I'm not sure anything will change now, and maybe even for the worst, because at least we had a partner. I don't know if we will have a partner now, for sure, not in the coming days. And time is running out for them. Also the fact that he was not accompanied by hostages. As we always saw that Sinwar will be accompanied by dozens of hostages. It makes me worry a bit.
But, first of all, it depends on the Israeli government and changing its priority. Till now, it was the lower priority. Would it become now a higher priority? I don't know. Would the Palestinian agree to release them all without the withdrawal of Israel from the Gaza? I doubt it very much. And without the withdrawal, I don't see a deal happening, and I don't see Netanyahu agreeing ever to withdraw from the whole Gaza Strip.
SOLOMON: So, Gideon, you don't buy the theory that's been floating around this morning that this death if, in fact, it is Sinwar, gives Netanyahu the political cover, the symbolic victory, perhaps, that he has been waiting for to off-ramp out of Gaza. You don't buy it.
LEVY: I don't buy it because I don't think he aims to leave Gaza. It's not like he wanted so much to leave Gaza. He just waited for the opportunity, not at all. On the contrary, he knows very well what we all know that if he leaves now Gaza, Gaza will be an anarchy, because he is against the PA replacing Hamas. Hamas can kill, still control Gaza. So, in any case, this (inaudible) is very dangerous, and he is not open to any kind of settlement. He believes, as usual, only on living on sword, only on living on our military force, which means staying in Gaza. And staying in Gaza means not ending this war, because the resistance will continue. Staying in Gaza means also not releasing, at least not all the hostages, because no Palestinian leader will release all the hostages when the Israeli soldiers are still there. SOLOMON: Gideon, when you say that you're concerned that this may be even for the worst, what is the worst-case scenario for you? Is it a political vacuum with no real leader of Hamas, or is it someone else waiting in the wings that perhaps may be, I mean, if possible, worse than Sinwar? I mean, what's the worst-case scenario for you?
LEVY: The worst-case scenario is unfortunate, quite a realistic one, and this is that Israel stays in the Gaza Strip. The IDF stays there as an occupied force. In the worst, worst scenario, Israel is building settlements in the northern part of Gaza, and here we have an addition to the impossible occupation of the West Bank, will get back to the occupation in Gaza, and all our problems will be doubled and tripled, relatively to what it was before this war.
SOLOMON: Gideon, how do you think this news, and obviously, I mean, this is just a few hours ago, about three hours ago now, by my estimate, that we even got this news, but if, in fact, it is Sinwar, how do you think it will be received internationally?
LEVY: Internationally, it will be received, first of all, with a sense of relief, and nobody was a fan of Sinwar, not in the West, and also not in big parts in the Arab world.
[11:35:00]
I can tell you more than this. Many people in Gaza will feel relief today, would they know that that's the end of Hamas also, which I doubt it. But, in any case, he was not popular in Gaza, and his regime in Gaza left many people -- really, he created so much damage to Gaza, let's leave alone now Israel. What did Gaza get? What did he achieve out of these years of terror and violence? But, the world will also ask, OK, we got rid of this guy, and what's next? Who is going to replace him? What is going to replace him? Not who, but what is going to replace him? What is Israel going to do about the replacement and what are the -- what is the end game of Israel? And Israel has only one end game, staying in Gaza.
SOLOMON: What about the impact to Palestinians? I hear you say that they may also find this a relief. What impact do you think this might have for those living in Gaza right now?
LEVY: Look, the Palestinians are lacking totally now any kind of leadership, with Sinwar, without Sinwar. They really lost because unlikely, the Second Intifada, the First Intifada, when they had clear leaderships, which part of them, at least, believed in them, most of the Palestinians are totally in despair. They don't believe in Fatah. They don't believe in Hamas. They don't believe in the PA. They feel that they are totally abandoned by the world, by the Arab world, and by their own leaders. And that is not good news for Israel. People, desperate people, without any leadership, without any vision, is not good news for the Israelis, even though many Israelis might be happy about it, because this means or might mean anarchy and more violence. And then, where are we aiming at?
I mean, what will happen in Gaza? For God's sake, what will be about those 2.3 million people living in these unbelievable conditions, uprooted from the places, thirsty, hungry, with diseases? I mean, what is going to happen with those people? Their situation didn't improve tonight.
SOLOMON: Yeah. Gideon Levy, we appreciate your insights and your perspective today. Thank you.
LEVY: Thank you very much.
SOLOMON: And this just sent to CNN. At least 28 Palestinians are dead after an Israeli airstrike on a school that was serving as a shelter in northern Gaza. That is according to the head of emergency services in the area. 150 others were wounded in the strike. The IDF says that the compound was being used as a command and control center by Hamas and Islamic Jihad militants.
And after a short break, we're going to have more on the possible death of Yahya Sinwar. We're going to speak with one of our senior White House correspondents to get reaction from the Biden administration in just a few minutes. Stay with us.
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SOLOMON: All right. Back to our breaking news. Israeli military is conducting DNA tests to determine whether Hamas leader Yaya Sinwar has been killed in Gaza. Israeli sources tell CNN that the IDF forces found a body resembling Sinwar's after they battled three militants during a quote "routine operation". Israel considers Sinwar the mastermind of the October 7th attacks. Right now, U.S. officials are not making any immediate statements about what his death, if confirmed, might mean for the future of the Israel-Hamas war.
Let's bring in our team of reporters for you. We have CNN's Nada Bashir, who is standing by for us in London, with all of the latest developments, as well as CNN Senior White House Correspondent Kayla Tausche, who is in Berlin awaiting President Joe Biden's arrival.
Nada, let me just start with you. What is the latest here? What's the newest here?
BASHIR: Well, we're getting more information from Israeli sources and Israeli officials. Of course, they are still working to confirm whether one of the three militants killed in this apparent Israeli military operation was, in fact, Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar. We don't have that confirmation just yet. We are hearing more details, according to Israeli army. Really, they believe Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar was killed after Israeli tank fire on a house in the early hours of Thursday morning. Again, we don't have those details directly from the Israeli military officials. They are still waiting to confirm whether this was, in fact, Yahya Sinwar.
But, there are a lot of questions around what impact this will have, of course, over the course of the war in Gaza, what this will mean for the situation inside the Gaza Strip, and of course, for hostages who are still held captive, whether, potentially, this is an off-ramp for the Israeli government, whether this will be painted or framed as an opportunity for the Israeli government to paint this as a victory perhaps. They have said repeatedly from the outset of the war that they are focused on eradicating Hamas, targeting its officials and leaders wherever they are, whether that's in Gaza or elsewhere, and that is certainly what we have seen over the last year, key Hamas officials assassinated across the board, from Gaza to Lebanon and of course, in Iran.
But also, there is questions as to whether they may take this as an opportunity to double down on their military efforts. We have seen the intensification of Israel's military operations in northern Gaza. We've seen Israel carrying out airstrikes and a ground incursion now in Lebanon, with some success, significant blows to Hezbollah, one of Hamas' key allies, of course, and still questions as to whether we will indeed see Israel attacking Iran in response to Iran's missile attacks on October 1st. So, lots of questions as to what this latest development, the potential killing of Yahya Sinwar, if confirmed, will have on the broader situation in the region, and also, closely, of course, on the situation in Gaza.
Many, of course, hopeful that potentially this could lead to some sort of movement on the negotiation front. Whether this is the case, it remains to be seen. But, ,certainly that will be something that international leaders will be pressuring for, of course, pushing for, to see some movement on the negotiations for a ceasefire and for hostages to finally be released. Again, we are still getting more details on this. This is a developing story, and of course, it could take hours at least for the Israeli officials to confirm and these DNA tests to confirm whether or not this is, in fact, Yahya Sinwar.
SOLOMON: Yeah. As we understand it, those DNA tests are taking place as we speak.
Kayla, let me bring you into the conversation. I mean, as we understand it, U.S. officials are not necessarily speaking right now. But, what more are you hearing? What do you think the U.S. perspective, at least the administration's perspective, might be on this?
KAYLA TAUSCHE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, the administration is going to want to figure out what path Israel will take forward from this if it is, in fact, confirmed to have been Yahya Sinwar that was killed in that attack, whether Israel will see this as an opening to continue intensifying its campaigns, both in Gaza and in Lebanon, and with that pending retaliation against Iran, or whether it will take an opening for a ceasefire that the U.S. has been trying to broker for the better part of a year at this point.
We know that President Biden is being briefed by his top national security officials aboard Air Force One, and National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan is expected to speak to reporters from Air Force One at some point. President Biden, in Berlin, was expected to meet with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz for expanded bilateral meetings on a host of topics, before meeting with his closest European allies, the leaders of the UK, France and Germany, in a separate so-called European Quad summit that was expected to focus on a host of issues.
But, one official involved in the planning tells me that today's news is likely to overtake all of that, with a strong desire among European allies to see not only a peaceful resolution to the ongoing campaign in Lebanon, but also a resolution to the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. But, certainly, this news changes the script for what those leaders were planning to discuss in tomorrow's meetings. But, of course, none of that can be known until the Israelis give confirmation if, in fact, it was Yahya Sinwar in that attack.
[11:45:00]
SOLOMON: Yeah, as we wait for that news.
Nada, let me bring you back into the conversation. You have done extensive reporting in the region. Just your sense of the reaction perhaps within Gaza to this news, and also the impact on Palestinians. What do you think?
BASHIR: I mean, the level of desperation in Gaza is hard to put into words. And for many, they will be hopeful that potentially this could lead to some sort of forward movement on the negotiation front, of course, in terms of Yahya Sinwar and the reaction there. He is a more hardline figure. There are certainly those in Gaza and even outside of Gaza who view Yahya Sinwar as a representative, a symbolic figure representing resistance against Israeli aggression in Gaza and occupation elsewhere. For others, of course, we have been hearing directly from civilians on the ground who have expressed anger and frustration towards Sinwar and Hamas overall, many of whom feel that they have dragged civilians into a war that they had no part in, that they did not want to see.
And of course, important to underscore where we are, just over a year since the beginning of the war, more than 42,000 people in Gaza killed. We are seeing a deteriorating humanitarian situation. Still hostages held captive inside the Gaza Strip. So, on the civilian front, there is certainly a huge amount of frustration with Hamas from some. Of course, a huge amount of anger and frustration as well directed towards Israel and the Israeli military, and the Israeli military who has been carrying out this military operation, strikes and ground invasion across the Gaza Strip, as well as, of course, the blockade that has been in force for some time now by the Israeli military, preventing aid from getting in.
So, across the border, there are certainly different layers with regard to the reaction that we may see from Palestinians on the ground. But, I think what the overwhelming shared feeling is a desire to see an end to this war, to see a negotiated solution, a political resolution that will ensure peace for civilians in Gaza, who, of course, have to live through this war for over a year now.
SOLOMON: Yeah. Kayla, let me bring you back into the conversation, and pick up where Nada left off there, I mean, whether this creates an opportunity to work toward a negotiated end. I mean, what might you expect Biden and Netanyahu who have spoken frequently over the last year, what might you expect in the next few days in terms of that relationship?
TAUSCHE: Well, they had spoken more frequently until this frustration continued to simmer between the two countries, as the Biden administration believed that Netanyahu was not taking U.S. consultations under advisement. And most recently, the President and the Prime Minister spoke for the first time in more than two months to discuss those potential plans for retaliation against Iran. But, there still is some frustration that is playing out in public between the two sides. Just yesterday, the Secretary of Defense and the Secretary of State issued a warning to Israel, saying that if the situation in Gaza did not improve in the next 30 days, there could be new conditions placed on military aid that the U.S. would be providing to Israel. That would be the first time that the U.S. had withheld or at least threatened to withhold any type of weaponry since the U.S. decided to withhold heavy bombs, those 2000-pound bombs, earlier this spring.
So, certainly, trying to show Israel that the U.S.'s assistance does not come at all costs, especially if their advice continues to fall on deaf ears.
SOLOMON: OK. Kayla Tausche live for us there in Berlin, and Nada Bashir in London, thank you both.
We're going to take a short break. We'll be right back.
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[11:50:00]
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SOLOMON: Welcome back. And let's get back to our breaking news.
Israeli sources tell CNN that a man believed to be the Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar has been killed in Gaza. Israeli military conducting DNA tests and checking fingerprints right now. The sources say that IDF forces encountered three militants during a routine operation and engaged them, and Israeli Army Radio reports that a tank fired at a house in Gaza early Thursday, and that a drone scanned the area and soldiers recognized Sinwar's face amid the rubble. Now, if his death is confirmed, it would be a massive blow to Hamas. Israel considers Sinwar the mastermind of the October 7th attacks. Right now, U.S. officials are not making any immediate statements about what his death, if confirmed, might mean for the future of the Israel-Hamas war.
Let's bring in Nic Robertson, our Diplomatic International Editor. Nic, I think it would be helpful to just sort of take a step back, because this is not happening necessarily in a vacuum. You think about Ismail Haniyeh. You think about Hassan Nasrallah. Just sort of put this in perspective and context for us, if you might.
ROBERTSON: Yeah. When you talk about those two figures, the leader of Hamas that was executed, or rather assassinated in Tehran a few months ago, Hassan Nasrallah who was killed in a massive Israeli bomb strike in Beirut just under a month ago, these were operations that very clearly seemed to have a high degree of intelligence. They knew where Ismail Haniyeh was. They knew the building he was staying in. They knew when he would be there. They knew Hassan Nasrallah was going into the building where he was. They knew when he would be there, and they were able to target it with a massive amount of munition. So, they also knew that he was going to be a long way down underground, and what would have been thought to be a protected space.
So, the apparent death of Yahya Sinwar in what's being described as a routine operation that the IDF soldiers came across, these three engaged them and killed them, it sounds in stark difference to the killing of the other two leaders, and raises questions. Look, if Israel did have an intelligence tip off where Yahya Sinwar was, they certainly wouldn't be broadcasting it, because they want to use whoever gave them that intelligence, or how they got the intelligence, they wouldn't want that to leak. They would want to be able to use that to get other Hamas operatives that they're trying to target.
So, I think we have to wait until we get a lot more information to be able to piece it all together logically. We have fragments of information, the tank fire that you talked about, the three men being killed. And it doesn't seem particularly common in combat that the IDF is actually getting in close enough to see precisely and taking the time to see who they are killing, if it's in a sort of an average engagement, if you will. There must have been something about this. You would expect that that led the IDF to believe that this was something more important, to put those assets in, to go back and check with a drone to see who it was, who was killed. So, I think there is a lot more to learn about this.
SOLOMON: Yeah. And Nic, I mean, what questions do you have when you hear, and obviously the big caveat is we're still waiting for confirmation, we don't know, but that this person, whomever it was, was, in fact, with two other people? I mean, do you wonder if perhaps it was maybe his brother or would he be with other people who were not as high ranking? I mean, what questions do you have about, operationally, how this went down?
ROBERTSON: I've understood from senior Israeli sources that Yahya Sinwar was traveling around with his brother Mohammed Sinwar, not all the time, but that was something that they believed, that they understood to be accurate about a month ago. His brother Mohammed Sinwar had taken over from the former military commander of Hamas, who was killed in an airstrike in July. So, Mohammed Sinwar had risen to a very senior position, having joined at the hit with his brother since they rose through the ranks of Hamas over the past few decades. He was the one that had custody of Gilad Shalit, the Israeli soldier who was eventually -- whose release was eventually negotiated with the Israelis to allow the release from jail of Yahya Sinwar.
These two, very close together. They think the same. They've operated the same together. If his brother is alive, then there is reason to think that Hamas will have still a strong figurehead to look to, certainly in terms for military and perhaps for political direction too. If he is one of those three who is dead along with Yahya Sinwar, then I think the equation looks slightly different. But, again, we really need to wait for the dust to settle. It's very, very early to draw conclusions at this point.
I think what we can say is that it does present an opportunity for a -- for some diplomatic intervention and a different analysis to be applied to the problem by the Prime Minister Netanyahu, by Hamas, by the interlocutors, by everyone that's been trying to do it.
[11:55:00]
It's not clear that that's going to happen, though.
SOLOMON: Yeah. And just for our audience, I mean, as we wait, we understand that officials are looking at fingerprints, dental records, DNA. And so, that is, in fact, what we're waiting for. Unclear if this will be days, perhaps maybe hours. That we don't know.
But, Nic Roberson, always great to have your insights. Thank you.
And thank you for spending part of your day with me. I'm Rahel Solomon live in New York. Stick with CNN. Our coverage of this breaking news will continue with One World.
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