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Trump Standing His Ground On Controversial Cabinet Picks; Doctors Question RFK Jr.'s Anti-Ozempic Stance; Kellogg's: Food Dyes In Company's Cereals "Deemed Safe". Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired November 18, 2024 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:00]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN ANCHOR: -- on this show. I know you do as well. I'm a little concerned about my Commanders. They've dropped two -- two straight and it's Cowboys week here in Washington. So I've got a -- I'm going to go listen to some sports radio here this afternoon and get ready for this thing.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. I have a lot of unhappy family members right now because my husband's family is from Kansas. So they're big Chiefs fans, you know, so they're --

ACOSTA: Oh, my goodness.

BROWN: -- they're reeling today. But -- but, you know, we're right in the thick of football season. You got highs and lows for them, it's a low. For the Bills fans, it's the high.

ACOSTA: That's right.

BROWN: That's the way it goes, right, Jim?

ACOSTA: On any given Sunday. That's right. On to the next week.

BROWN: On to the next. All right. Lots of news today, Jim. I'll take it from here. Thanks so much.

Well, Donald Trump's controversial pick to lead the Department of Health and Human Services, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. says he will, quote, fix our broken food system. We're going to take a closer look at what that could mean.

Plus, Trump has repeatedly said he'll close the Department of Education. I'll speak to one of his chief supporters on axing the agency. That's Oklahoma's education superintendent. He just requested required schools to play his video announcement on a new religious freedom and patriotism department in which he prays for President- elect Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I pray in particular for President Donald Trump and his team as they continue to bring about change to the country.

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BROWN: And later, the icon of budget travel, Spirit Airlines filing for bankruptcy, how Spirit's problems could lead to higher fares across the industry.

Hello, I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. And you're in the CNN Newsroom. We begin with the Trump transition going full steam ahead. The President-elect is not backing down on his cabinet picks, even as some of them come under intense scrutiny. A source close to Trump tells me he is 100 percent all in for one of his most controversial picks, Matt Gaetz for attorney general. And his latest pick is Brendan Carr to have the Federal Communications Commission.

Carr is currently an FCC commissioner and author of a chapter on proposed changes to the agency and Project 2025, where he says the agency's top priority should be things like promoting national security and reining in big tech, something the FCC does not meaningfully oversee, especially on national security. I want to bring in CNN's Steve Contorno. Steve, what else are you hearing from Trump's team today?

STEVE CONTORNO, CNN REPORTER: Well, Trump is back in Palm Beach, Pamela, where he is expected to continue filling out his cabinet. And there's a lot of intrigue left around these picks because there are not a lot of jobs, high profile jobs remaining. But yet there are a lot of loyalists within his orbit who are looking for positions in the federal government, especially when it comes to who will be his treasury secretary. We've seen several different factions within Trump's orbits fighting over that job in particular, and Commerce is another one.

He also has to name an education secretary, which is an interesting job because Donald Trump has promised that he will eliminate the Department of Education. Meanwhile, his allies spent the weekend appearing on the Sunday shows defending Donald Trump's picks so far and making the case that he deserves a cabinet that he wants after his electoral victory. Take a listen to what House Speaker Mike Johnson had to say on State of the Union.

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REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), HOUSE SPEAKER: These are disruptors. They are, I think that's by design. Any president has the right to name their own cabinet, to nominate persons that they think will fulfill their agenda. And the people that -- that are on this list will do that. They will go into the agencies that they're being asked to lead and they will reform them. These agencies need reform. And I think the vast majority of the American people understand that. You can't have status quo appointments in a moment like this.

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CONTORNO: Now, worth pointing out, Johnson will not have a say ultimately in who does and does not get confirmed in a Donald Trump administration that will fall on the Senate. We have already heard several people suggest that Gaetz in particular and maybe Pete Hegseth have a tough road to getting nominated, although we are already starting to see signs of some Republicans in the Senate moving toward Trump's picks, even ones who have had run ins with Gaetz in the past, for example -- example, Senator Mullin of Oklahoma. He is someone who has previously said that Gaetz showed him explicit videos to him and members on the House floor of Gaetz involved in sexual encounters. This is something he -- he shared publicly as an example of just how out of line Gaetz connect. He now says Gaetz is someone who should get a, quote, fair shot for this nomination. Pamela?

BROWN: All right, Steve Contorno. And yes, as I said to start off this segment, Trump is 100 percent behind Gaetz. He wants to see him as his attorney general, what he sees as a top priority and the most -- one of the most important roles in his administration. Steve, thank you.

RFK Jr., one of Trump's most controversial cabinet picks as well, is raising questions about the popular weight loss drug, Ozempic. But doctors are pushing back. The President-elect chose Kennedy to lead the Health and Human Services Department. CNN medical correspondent Meg Tirrell joins us now. So, Meg, why are Kennedy's claims about Ozempic so controversial?

[11:05:12]

MEG TIRRELL, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's a couple of things that doctors have raised to me about them both sort of factual, the way he represents facts about things, but also sort of a concern about stigma in approaching obesity and diabetes, which are chronic diseases that RFK Jr. has said he really wants to tackle as HHS secretary. Take a listen to how he has talked about Ozempic before.

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ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR. TRUMP'S PICK FOR HHS SECRETARY: The E.U. is right now investigating Ozempic for suicidal ideation. But they're not marketing it in Europe. They make this drug in Denmark. And in Denmark they do not recommend it for diabetes or -- or obesity. They're counting on selling to American because we're so stupid and so addiction -- addicted to drugs.

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TIRRELL: So there's a couple things to tackle there. I mean, first on the suicidal ideation, Europe did have an investigation into this question and they concluded in April that the available evidence does not suggest that Ozempic or other medicines in the class cause suicidal thoughts or actions. The FDA had a similar investigation. It is continuing it, but it reached the same conclusion. So that is going on, but it is not exactly as RFK Jr. represented it was.

Secondly, Denmark does use Ozempic both for diabetes and its sister drug Wegovy for obesity. And really they've cut back there because of cost cutting measures. And then finally the idea that Americans are stupid and that's why we use drugs like Ozempic, that's something that doctors who treat obesity really push back on. They say that perpetually perpetuates stigma. And they say, of course, healthy food and exercise are incredibly important parts of managing this condition. But that therapy can work really well for certain people and it shouldn't be something that is demonized. So that's really why they're concerned about these kinds of comments from RFK Jr. about Ozempic and similar things.

BROWN: All right, Meg Tirrell, thank you.

Kennedy's opinions are controversial, but in the eyes of many experts, not all of them are necessarily wrong. His views on vaccines and the criticism of those get a lot of attention, with scientists being fairly united that Kennedy is wrong based on the data available in the science and that vaccines are safe and effective.

But his concerns about foods and the additives and many of them are being embraced by many scientists and concerned member -- members of the general public. A lot of parents care about this, too. Last month, protesters gathered outside Kellogg's headquarters in Michigan. Advocates want the company to remove artificial food dyes and preservatives from cereals like Froot Loops. Something that has been done in other countries with tighter regulations and something Kellogg's vowed to do in U.S. cereals by 2018, but never did.

So could Kennedy actually make America's foods healthier? Let's discuss the science with Marion Nestle. She's a professor of nutrition and food studies at New York University and the author of "Slow Cooked: An Unexpected Life in Food Politics." She's also writing a book on cereal as we speak. And Jason Karp, he's a food advocate and founder and CEO of HumanCo who started the movement against Kellogg's. Great to see both of you.

I'm really looking forward to this important conversation. Jason, let's start with you. I want to read this statement from Kellogg's where it says the colors we use in our cereals have been deemed safe by scientific bodies around the world looking at the totality of research. Additionally, the FD&C colors we use in our foods in the U.S. are classified as certified, meaning they are required to undergo certification by the FDA every time a new batch is manufactured.

As I noted, Jason, Kellogg's is saying that. You started this movement against Kellogg's. It's gaining a lot of traction online. There was even a petition for Kellogg's to remove these food dyes. That's gotten more than 450,000 signatures. Why are you doing this?

JASON KARP, FOOD ADVOCATE, FOUNDER OF HUMANCO: Thanks for having me. You know, I'm a father of two. I've been a professional investor for 26 years. And I created a food company with family specifically so that we could tackle the -- the health crisis. You know, we are in an epidemic right now where we've -- despite the fact that we exercise more than ever, we're more technologically advanced than ever, we know more than we ever have. We have never been this sick across mental health, physical health, and fertility.

And I took this issue up where I wrote a letter in March of -- of this year against Kellogg's because they sell a safer, less toxic version of this cereal in -- in many other developed nations all across the world, where in countries like Australia, in countries like Canada, in countries all in Europe and Japan and India, they have removed artificial food dyes which are derived from petroleum and coal tar.

And there's over dozens of peer reviewed scientific papers that shows that these are neurotoxic, some of these are carcinogenic because behavioral challenges and learning issues in children. And in all of these countries, these developed nations that we respect as peer nations, they require cigarette like warning labels on the front of these packages. And companies like Kellogg chose to reformulate and create a safer, healthier version in all of these countries.

[11:10:28]

Yet in America, that because we allow it and because we have looser regulatory policies here in terms of ingredients that we allow. And we have a different regulatory stance here, Pam, where in those countries it's a guilty until proven innocent approach where when a new chemical or ingredient is introduced, it actually has to be studied before it's introduced into their food supply.

Whereas in this country we have a policy called generally recognize the safe, where companies can use their own independent experts to actually bring forth a new chemical without the FDA approving it and then later we will figure out if it's actually a problem and so we don't take it --

BROWN: So and that is -- so we're going to dive a little bit deeper into that, Jason, because I want to get Marion in on this. It is true the way that it's set up with this grass program that thousands of ingredients can make into the marketplace without -- without FDA approval. But to -- to -- to just focus in on -- on what we're starting this conversation with, Marion, on -- on Kellogg's and the Froot Loops and so forth, on the food dyes, as I just read the statement, Kellogg's insist their foods are safe. What does the science show on this topic? And what do you think about this? Do you think that they should be removed for public health?

MARION NESTLE, PROFESSOR OF NUTRITION, FOOD STUDIES AT NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: Well, let's just start with why they're there in the first place. They're there for cosmetic reasons. They have no actual function in the cereal other than to make it attractive. And there's research that shows that people like brightly colored foods, they think they taste better and they much prefer them.

When cereal companies have taken the dyes out of the cereals and put in natural dyes instead, people don't buy them, they don't want them as much. So from the cereals company's standpoint, this is a marketing imperative. And Americans seem to prefer the brightly colored neon colored dyes more than the Europeans do. The Europeans buy the cereals with natural dyes. But we don't. So it's a problem for the cereal companies.

The problem for scientists is that the research is extremely difficult to do. You can't take two populations of kids and lock them up and feed them one set food dyes and one set not food dyes and keep them there for some number of years and see whether it affects their behavior. You're not allowed to do studies like that. So they do studies on animals. And the animal studies are done with -- with much higher doses than are currently available in the food supply.

And those studies show harm. So how do you interpret that? Well, as Jason put it, in the United States, we assume foods are safe until they cause trouble. In Europe, they use what's called a precautionary principle, which is, you know, let's make sure these things are safe before they use them. Here, because the Food and Drug Administration is so badly underfunded and -- and doesn't have the personnel or the resources to do this kind of thing, they are forced to take the generally recognized as safe approach, which, you know, people have been complaining about that for decades, that it doesn't work.

BROWN: I have to admit, as a mom, I was actually surprised when I did a little bit more of a deeper dive into the FDA and this grass, the grass loophole, and -- and that -- that there's not more regulation on some of these ingredients. I think, as you -- as you pointed out, you know, there is some science showing that there could be some risks. But, you know, the Kellogg's would argue, look, the FDA says it's safe.

But the bottom line is, you know, I want to go to you on this, Marion, and then I'm going to go to you on this, Jason, that Kellogg said that it would take out these chemicals by 2018. And it -- and it didn't.

NESTLE: It didn't.

BROWN: Why do you think from your research?

NESTLE: Because if they take it out, people won't buy them. The example is Trix cereal. It's a General Mills cereal where in 2017, General Mills said they would take the color dyes out of Trix. Guess what? Sales fell. General Mills put the dyes back in. You know, and I thought that I actually liked the colors that they were using in between. They look -- they didn't look anything like the neon colors they looked like fall.

BROWN: Right.

[11:15:00]

NESTLE: Gentle fall colors, but people didn't buy them and the sales dropped by 5 percent or something like that. That's all it takes.

BROWN: And -- and it's interesting because, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. Go ahead.

NESTLE: I just want to say one other thing. Cereal companies are not social service companies. They're not public health agencies. They're businesses with stockholders to please. That's the bottom line.

BROWN: So and it is interesting. If you look at the cereal, and I know you and your colleague Vani Hari, Jason, held up, you did a -- a Senate panel on this, and you held up the -- the cereal, the Froot Loops in Canada, which they used carrot juice and blueberry juice, and you held up the cereal in the U.S. from Froot Loops, and it was brightly colored because of those artificial colors. I do want to note, Jason, Kellogg's argues 85 percent of its cereal sales contain these coloring chemicals and that, you know, they argue Americans have a choice. They can decide what they prefer. No one is forced to eat Kellogg's Froot Loops, you say it's not so simple, though. Why so?

KARP: Well, first, that 85 percent number is totally misleading. You have to ask them what percentage of children's cereal has artificial food diets. They're including in that 85 percent number brands like Raisin Bran, Special K and Corn Flakes, which children don't eat. So they won't disclose what percentage of the children's cereal actually has artificial food dyes. And my guess is it's upwards of 50, 60 percent. And the -- what was the second question, Pamela?

BROWN: OK, let me think. Let me go back. So it was about the food dies, 85 percent of sales. They say, look, customers can decide what they want, but they're not forced to eat Froot Loops.

KARP: Oh, yes. So the second -- the second topics even more important.

BROWN: OK.

KARP: The second topic is even more important, which is that there's a significant portion of -- of these children's cereal that are -- that are in public school systems in -- in Title 1, Public School Systems, where children get all of their daily calories in their schools. So this argument that we don't have a choice or that we have a choice is not the same for some of these children in some of these places. This is in many public institutions. This is in the military. These are in some public hospitals. And so there are a lot of places where these are the calories that -- that lower socioeconomic children get every day.

And so these are in our schools. And because of their bright colors, they're very attractive. And so we don't have the -- as many children and many people of lesser socioeconomic means don't actually have a choice the way some of us do in saying, oh, we don't have to eat, you know, processed cereal.

BROWN: This is such an important conversation. I know Jason, you just testified in Texas as they look to potentially ban this. I know California has already passed legislation on this to go into effect in a few years. We're going to keep this conversation going. Marion and Jason, so you're welcome back on the show as we continue to cover this. And RFK Jr. has talked about your movement, Jason, and also what you're doing and said it's a priority. So thank you both so much for your time today.

KARP: Thank you for having us, Pamela.

[11:18:12]

BROWN: Still ahead this hour, right now, the man accused of kindling, nursing student Laken Riley at the University of Georgia is on trial. Officers have been describing the injuries found on him, very disturbing. That's next.

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BROWN: Happening now, we are tracking the murder trial of a man accused of killing Georgia nursing student, Laken Riley. Today is the second day of testimony. Earlier this morning, the officer who made initial contact with the suspect described seeing what could have been defensive wounds on Jose Ibarra's arms, injuries the officer believed came from fingernail scratches.

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SGT. JOSHUA EPPS, UNIVERSITY OF GEORGIA POLICE: On his left wrist just below the palm. He had a puncture maybe a half an inch wide that through my experiences of playing sports in high school and receiving the same injury from fingernails in football, I could see like wet flesh, like, almost like it was fresh. It wasn't very old, possibly still irritated. And as he moved his -- his wrists, when I was looking at them closely, I could actually see the liquid or I guess body fluids that would be in that cut.

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BROWN: A second officer testified that he asked Ibarra about his wounds and how he received them, but Ibarra was unable to give a clear answer. For discussion, I want to bring in Michael Moore. He is a CNN legal analyst and former U.S. Attorney. First of all, Michael, how compelling is the testimony we've heard so far this morning?

MICHAEL MOORE, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, well, I'm glad to be with you. I'm sorry it's under these circumstances, frankly. I mean, the testimony is compelling. The case is just horrific. And this is a trial simply about sort of the -- the -- the pure evil that was inflicted on this young student at the University of Georgia. So the prosecution now has to go through its duty of laying out the case to the judge so that he can make a decision about whether or not there's been proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

I will tell you oftentimes, and I think the decision likely was made by the defense attorneys, that this is almost like a slow guilty plea, that -- that -- that is, that there's really not much to say in his defense, but rather you can let the judge sort of hear the facts, hear those things that a jury may pass over and make a decision based on the law and maybe with some -- somewhat less emotion. So the case they've laid out seems very clear to me that there's a conviction forthcoming thus far.

Of course, you've got to hear from the defense, but -- but the -- but the case, the scientific evidence, the sort of the evidence about the -- the wounds on his hand and what appears to be wounds that -- that she was able to make while she was being attacked, the DNA, the -- the information from the cell phone and the fingerprints, the -- these things are getting to the point where some might argue that it's almost insurmountable to overcome for the defense.

[11:25:22]

BROWN: An officer who spoke fluent Spanish described Ibarra and his brothers as being relaxed, even laughing when they were initially confronted at their apartment. I wonder, how does a reaction like that play into the case here?

MOORE: You know, the -- this is where it may have been a smart move by the defense to have a bench trial or trial that's simply heard by the judge, because that type of conduct in the face of the -- the -- the evil and the crime that was put on this young girl would -- would not play well with the jury. You -- you don't have to look much further than the election how this case became a lightning rod for -- for the entire immigration woes of the country.

So you could imagine having 12 people in the Athens Clark County area sitting there listening to this case, hearing that a man who is accused of having just killed this young student seems to have a jocular, jovial attitude. So, you know, this again, this -- this may be exactly why you -- you -- his -- his lawyers made the decision with him to waive his right to a trial, because a judge can maybe back out of some of the emotion.

At the same time, I expect his judge is emotional. I mean, he's -- he's -- he's not immune from being a human being, but he can at least take some of those things out and look at the law and the facts and what evidence has been proven and -- and laid out by -- by the state going forward.

BROWN: All right, Michael Moore, thank you so much. We'll continue to cover this.

So at this hour, President-elect Donald Trump says he wants to abolish the Department of Education. I'll speak to someone who agrees with him, Oklahoma State Superintendent of Schools, who is also requiring schools to play a video showing him praying and also requiring Bibles be in every classroom, next.

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