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Rudy Giuliani in Contempt of Court?; Guilty Verdict Delivered in Laken Riley Murder Trial. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired November 20, 2024 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:03]

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I know they're coming back at 12:30 to do just that, but that's the sentence that he's facing. And that's the sentence I think the judge will impose, Pamela.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: I want to note for our viewers, we're waiting on our reporter Rafael Romo, who was inside that courtroom when the judge announced his decision, to come join us for this discussion.

But, obviously, the most serious counts here are the murder counts, as you just talked about. Tell us a little bit more about that and the difference between the malice murder versus the felony murder counts.

JACKSON: Yes, so what happens, Pamela, is that prosecutors generally prove or they attempt to charge you with and do follow up and charge you with everything that they believe your conduct really describes in terms of what you did.

And so when you look at malice murder, malice murder is exactly that. Premeditated murder, murder committed with a pretty bad heart. And then you look at the felony murder, and the felony murder is any murder that's done in commission of a separate felony. So, for example, if you're committing a felony such as kidnapping and it results in murder, that's felony murder.

If you're engaged in aggravated battery, where you're bashing someone with rocks or something else, that is felony murder. Anything done in commission of a felony that ultimately relates to or results in murder, right, someone dying, then that's what the felony murder stems from.

And, of course, the other charge is the kidnapping, is incident to what was alleged to have happened here. And now it's no longer alleged. It's what has been discovered to have happened. And so the judge looking at all of that and rendering a conclusion consistent with the technological evidence, with the DNA evidence and with the circumstantial evidence.

One last point, and that's this. There has been the indication from the defense all along that this was a circumstantial case. What does that mean? It means nothing direct, but circumstances, right? According to the defense, it's only circumstantial. Circumstantial evidence is powerful evidence. Very rarely would you have a situation where you have someone there

who sees everything, knows everything. People who commit crimes generally don't do them in the light of day. And so you need to piece together the circumstances.

And I think, when you piece that together with DNA, with cell phone evidence, with smartphone evidence and with other things, as they did here, that is, the prosecution, that's what results. And that is a conviction of all counts, all 10 counts.

BROWN: All right, Rafael Romo is here with us now. He was in the courtroom when the judge's decision was read.

Bring us in. You could just hear the emotion in that room, Rafael.

RAFAEL ROMO, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It -- in three decades of being a journalist, Pam, I have to say that it's been by far the most emotional moment that I have lived inside a courtroom.

And that's because, as each one of the counts was being read by the judge, you could hear, audibly hear sobbing, loud sobbing, from the family, from Laken Riley's mother, Allyson Phillips, from her sister, from extended family.

We counted more than 20 people between family, classmates, friends of Laken Riley, who were here in the courthouse, inside the courtroom every single day, every single hour of the three-and-a-half days of testimony.

And let me tell you, it was a very powerful case for the prosecution. They introduced 25 witnesses, compared to three from the defense. And, in the end, the defense made a very brave effort to try to distract from the overwhelming evidence, because, let's remember, there was physical evidence. There was digital evidence. There was DNA evidence. There were fingerprints.

And the defense was trying to say that there was an alternative theories or several theories of them, saying that it was possibly the brother, Diego Ibarra, who's also in federal custody under violation of immigration documents, presenting essentially a fake document.

But it was no use. And, again, on all 10 counts, Judge H. Patrick Haggard found the defendant guilty. Again, it is a trial that it is a case that we have been following for the last nine months, because not only how gruesome, how heinous the nature of the crime was but also, because it was at the center of a national debate about crime and immigration.

And, today, we have the resolution. Right now, the judge had called for -- has called for a recess, about an hour-and-a-half, after which we are expected to hear the sentencing. It's probably not going to be no surprise, Pam, because of the prosecution had asked for a life in prison without parole.

There were many calls to make this a death penalty case, but the prosecution decided not to go that route, but, again, a very powerful, very emotional moment. And you can feel for the family of Laken Riley, especially because they had to endure, essentially relive every single moment, the last minutes of Laken Riley's life. And one can only imagine how hard, how difficult that must have been for them, Pam.

[11:35:25]

BROWN: Our hearts go out to her family. I mean, look, he -- her murderer now found guilty of these 10 counts by the judge, but you will never be able to bring her back to life and are just -- it's just so, so deeply heartbreaking for the family.

Thank you so much, Rafael Romo, also Joey Jackson, who gave us the legal analysis.

Much more on this after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:40:32]

BROWN: We have breaking news we are following. The judge in the Laken Riley case just came out with his verdict, saying Jose Ibarra is guilty of all 10 counts, including four counts of murder.

We are now awaiting the sentencing, which should happen around 12:30. Right now, they're taking a break before we learn the sentencing. The prosecution is asking for Ibarra to face a maximum of life in prison without parole.

I'm going to bring in Joey Jackson, our legal analyst, and Rafael Romo, who was actually inside that courtroom, to continue that discussion.

Joey Jackson, to you. I also want to note that -- another layer to this and another reason why this became such a flash point in the election was because he is an undocumented immigrant from Venezuela. And it has raised all kinds of questions about crime and immigration. And that's been a big part of the discussion in the political sphere.

But in this sphere, when you look at the legal sphere, he is facing a maximum of life in prison without parole. And he is an undocumented immigrant. How does that play into this?

JACKSON: Yes, so Pamela, what would occur, of course, is that it could play a number of ways. The first, of course, is that we have, that is, the United States, jurisdiction over him. And you have to answer, based on that jurisdiction, to your crime.

In this country, of course, we have trials. You're allowed to have due process. That is noticing an opportunity to be heard. He was heard. He's guilty. He had his option, of course, to go in front of a jury of his peers. He opted to have a judge instead, presumably for that emotional issue, to eliminate it.

But emotion or not, he now is guilty. The United States can take the position and Georgia can take the position that he's with us. He will remain with us until that sentence is imposed and concluded. And so, in doing so, he would be in the jurisdiction of Georgia and their prison system until his death, right?

The other issue would be whether or not there's discussions to deport him and send him back to his country, in the event that that would occur, a negotiation in terms of how that would look like. Would he be imprisoned there? I doubt it. I think that the United States may want to keep him here, for fear that if he goes and is deported to his country, potentially, there's a risk of him coming back.

And so U.S. has jurisdiction, Georgia has jurisdiction, the court system has jurisdiction, the state has jurisdiction. I think they want to keep him incarcerated in that system for the duration, but we will see what intermediaries get involved and what the politics of this looks like.

But, clearly, today, Laken Riley's family certainly got some measure of justice with respect to who killed their daughter.

BROWN: And you were in there, Rafael Romo, with Laken Riley's family as this verdict was read. You were there with all the emotion.

You had just said before the break, it was the most emotional verdict reading you had ever been a part of as a reporter. Tell us more about that and what more we learned about Jose Ibarra and how he was able to pull this off.

ROMO: Yes, Pam, so, number one, the death of a loved one is difficult, this hard -- it's unimaginable to begin with.

But when you think about what this family has gone through, meaning that they had to relive the whole episode, because part of the evidence was situating Laken Riley the day of the murder, what time she left the house, who did she call, where was her cell phone, all the digital evidence.

And things that we learned during the trial was that her last text message was to her mother, telling her, I'm about to go for a run. Please let me know if you can talk to me. And then she called her. And the phone call went through to voice-mail. And her mother calls her back at 9:24.

And the prosecution said that it was at 9:28, that very same morning on February 22, that her heart stopped beating. So imagine being the mother of that young woman and listening to all of that, in addition to the trauma that you are already went through after losing your own daughter. So that's one thing.

The other thing that caught my attention, Pam, is that the judge, before issuing a verdict,he said that he filled up two legal pads of notes during the entire trial, two legal pads. And then he said, during closing arguments, I only wrote down two observations. Number one, he said, the statement by Sheila Ross, the special prosecutor, was very powerful. That was number one.

[11:45:16] Number two, Beck, the defense attorney, required the court to set aside my emotions, he said, the judge. And so he made that clarification before saying that Jose Ibarra was guilty in all 10 counts. So it was really interesting to see the judge say that, because, normally, we only hear from jurors. It is, in a trial by jury, the jurors who decide whether a defendant is guilty or not.

This time, that was the task of a judge. And he didn't take it lightly. He worked very hard at it, listening to the evidence and really paying attention to everything that was being said in court, Pam.

BROWN: I'm going to bring you back in, Joey.

Are you surprised that the prosecution didn't ask for the death penalty?

JACKSON: Yes, I think that that certainly could have been on the table.

And I think, given the nature, Pamela, of this particular proceeding, given the heinous nature of the act itself, the aspect of lying in wait, the premeditation, the intent involved in what occurred here, the fact that she was dragged into the woods, the fact that there was an attempt made upon the rape, it wasn't completed, that was noted in the closing argument, all of the surrounding circumstances, certainly, it would have warranted that, right, given the aggravating nature of the facts involved here.

But, look, the prosecution has not given the reason as to why they did not do so, but I think this certainly was a case that could have been in contention for them pursuing the death penalty and potentially getting the death penalty.

BROWN: And what stood out to you, Joey, about what more we learned about Jose Ibarra and how he was able to pull this off? He had been arrested previously. He's in the U.S. illegally and he was able to do this.

JACKSON: Yes, I think a couple of things.

I think the one thing that is, of course, concerning to everyone, no more concerning than to her family, of course, was the fact that he was permitted even to have this opportunity, based upon being arrested previously both in New York, both in Georgia, whether or not that could have prevented him being in -- whether ICE officials could have gotten involved.

Apparently, they tried to, but he was released before that time. And so it speaks to how the system certainly needs to be tightened up. The second thing is, in terms of actually event itself, could there have been more security in that particular area? People have the right to run wherever they want. There's a specific trail here.

Could that -- security measures have been more heightened? That being said, the fact that he engaged in this activity just, I mean, unimaginable, the fact that he had this opportunity to confront her, the fact that he also was, let's remember, accused and convicted of this Peeping Tom -- he apparently was peeping in on someone else's apartment looking to and having bad intentions.

And so the crimes are going to be committed, whether you're undocumented or whether you're citizens, et cetera. I think the fact is, is that, when there are those crimes, they need to be held accountable. There was accountability today. But my big takeaway is the issue of prevention and how potentially this is a lesson moving forward about how prevention can occur, so that we're not at this place.

BROWN: Certainly. Joey Jackson, Rafael Romo, thank you so much.

We will learn the sentence for Jose Ibarra next hour.

Much more ahead this hour, including some breaking news in the Rudy Giuliani defamation case. That's next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:53:14]

BROWN: This just in to CNN. The Georgia election workers who won a defamation case against Rudy Giuliani are asking him to hold him in contempt -- asking the judge.

His attorney just spoke moments ago.

CNN's Katelyn Polantz joins us.

You have been following every step of this. What could happen here, Katelyn?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, Pamela, that's going to be up to the judge.

And we're waiting to see if Judge Beryl Howell in D.C.'s federal court does something here. What's happening here is new problems for Rudy Giuliani. He's had a lot of them in court, but this is following a settlement that he agreed to about six months ago, where he said he would no longer defame Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss, these two Georgia election workers. He would stop insinuating that there was fraud in the 2020 election, that they would have participated in those false statements.

But then their lawyers found that, on November 12 and 14, on a broadcast he does nightly, Giuliani re-upped these things. He claimed that there was fixing of machines in the 2020 vote, that these women were quadruple-counting ballots, also false, again.

And so on this broadcast, he says he was framed, that he wants to be able to show courts tapes of these women counting votes. All of that, he had already agreed to that he wouldn't say, and so they're going to court and asking the judge to hold him in contempt.

Here's his lawyer responding to that accusation. This is a new lawyer that just agreed to start helping Giuliani just a few days ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSEPH CAMMARATA, ATTORNEY FOR RUDY GIULIANI: They are doing everything they can to stop Mayor Giuliani from having a formidable defense. We're not going to allow it. That's not going to take place in the United States. That's not who we are.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[11:55:00]

POLANTZ: Now, Giuliani has lost over and over again with these women in court. And they are saying that -- to the judge that he is violating the terms of his agreement with them, clear and unambiguous terms, and brazenly doing it.

BROWN: Katelyn Polantz, thank you so much for bringing us the latest on that front.

And before I go, Thursday is the last day of bidding in an annual auction for a fantastic cause. Homes For Our Troops builds free, specially adapted homes for severely injured veterans and it helps them rebuild their lives after serving our country.

I am offering up a private half-hour Zoom call on eBay. You can ask me anything. So get those bids in. You can talk to me. Some of my colleagues are on there as well, lots of interesting auction items, but the bottom line, it's for a great cause to help raise money for some of the people who have made the unthinkable sacrifice of living with injuries every day from serving our country overseas.

So just search for Homes For Our Troops at eBay.com. I'm also going to put a link in my profile on Instagram. You can find that @PamelaBrownCNN. I hope you bid for me or someone else.

Thank you for joining me. I'm Pamela Brown. You can follow me on Instagram, TikTok and X @PamelaBrownCNN.

Stay with us. "INSIDE POLITICS WITH DANA BASH" starts after a short break.