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Confirmation Hearing for Gov. Kristi Noem (R-SD) as Homeland Security Secretary; Supreme Court Issues Opinion on TikTok; Supreme Court Says TikTok Can Be Banned in U.S. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired January 17, 2025 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

SEN. JOSH HAWLEY (R-MO): Allow asylum seekers to apply ahead of time using their phones, but not actually to provide any evidence that they needed asylum.

[10:00:07]

There was a newspaper report, a press report that said the only problem with the app is it never asks users, are you seeking asylum? They don't ask for any asylum evidence. They simply release these so- called asylum seekers who use the app into the country on parole. Sometimes they're never given a hearing. The inspector general actually did a report, a full investigation report on CBP1, and found that, frequently, users of this app were claiming the same addresses in the United States as their intended destination, even though they didn't know each other, they weren't family connections. In other words, it has been completely abused. And the idea that the federal government would pay for this kind of concierge service for illegals I think is outrageous. Will you end the use of the CBP1 app?

GOV. KRISTI NOEM (R-SD), HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY NOMINEE: Yes, Senator if confirmed and I have the opportunity to be secretary on day one CBP1 will be shut down. There's data and information in there that we will preserve so that we can ensure we know who's coming into this country and who's already here that we need to go find, but also we make sure that there's another program, CHNV, which I'm sure you're very familiar with, where our federal government actually paid to fly people into this country directly from other countries without any vetting or knowing who they are.

So, there're several of these programs that need to be eliminated and we need to ensure that we're following legal immigration laws.

HAWLEY: I'm glad you just mentioned CHNV. This is another, this is a mass parole program. Of course, as you know, our law allows parole in only very limited circumstances. There are two circumstances and it requires case-by-case evaluation. The president administration soon to be gone has granted mass parole and in direct defiance of the law, not case-by-case evaluation. The CHNV program is one of those instances. Will you put a stop to this abuse of our parole law in our asylum system?

NOEM: Yes, we will go back to case-by-case evaluation of these parole cases and ensure that we have We have more resources if you will partner with us to make sure that our legal immigration system is fully utilized, that we have more judges, more immigration courts, so that we can process people legally and make sure that they are going through that process rather than that like Joe Biden has done, use this as an excuse to allow people to come into our country with no consequences.

HAWLEY: Let me ask you about another lowlight, not a highlight, but a lowlight of this last administration and DHS. Your predecessor, the current secretary of DHS, established a disinformation board, using taxpayer resources to police speech on the internet and elsewhere, to tag American citizens' viewpoints as either legitimate or not legitimate, and use the power of the state to censor them, including having them removed and perhaps --

JIM ACOSTA, CNN ANCHOR: This Good morning. You are live in the CNN Newsroom. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington.

We're following breaking news from the Supreme Court. The justices have just issued an opinion on the fate of TikTok.

Let me go straight to Paula Reid, who is here in Washington with me. Paula, what do we know?

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Jim, huge news out of the Supreme Court, as the justices uphold a controversial ban on the social media app, TikTok. Now, the justices signaled that they would uphold this ban several days ago when they had oral arguments. This all started last year in April when Congress, with broad bipartisan support, said that the app would be banned if it didn't divest from its parent company, ByteDance, because of concerns over that company's ties to China. It's a national security concern that has been expressed by presidents of both parties. Specifically, the concern, Jim, is that this app is collecting data, massive amounts of data from all of its users, and then potentially that data could be used by the Chinese government especially in the event of a crisis, to sow discord in this country or otherwise jeopardize national security.

Now, TikTok, they were challenging this ban, arguing that this was a violation of the first amendment. And when they heard arguments a few days ago, it's a rare day when you see a sort of a unanimous consensus across the bench. But it was clear that the justices on both sides of the aisle were skeptical about this First Amendment argument. So, as of now, unless TikTok, again, divest from its parent company by Sunday, this app could be rendered inoperable for many of its 170 million users. So far, this is definitely the biggest decision out of the Supreme Court this term. Jim?

ACOSTA: All right, Paula. And we do have two experts here with me for instant analysis, Joan Biskupic, our Supreme Court analyst, and Carrie Cordero.

Joan, I guess this doesn't come as a big surprise, but what do you make of this? I mean you know, there were a lot of people who were skeptical out there that this would actually take effect, that that TikTok would be blocked from being used by Americans, but it sounds like that may be happening very soon. JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN CHIEF SUPREME COURT ANALYST: As of this moment on Friday before the Sunday deadline, this ban can take effect. The Supreme Court said it was writing a narrow decision. There were no dissents. It was written unsigned what they call per curiam.

[10:05:01]

It's likely been written by Chief Justice John Roberts, but everyone signed it. Two justices wrote separately just to note some differences, but not to dissent, Justices Gorsuch and Sotomayor. And they stress that this was narrow just in regards to what had happened to TikTok and they said that, yes, there were some First Amendment interests, but the government's interest in its own foreign affairs, national security, overrode this. And it affirmed the lower court opinion that it said that, yes, agreed with the government, there are grave interests here in national security.

ACOSTA: Yes. Carrie, I mean, the knock on TikTok all along, and it's part of the reason why we're seeing this ban potentially going into place Sunday night, sounds like it will happen, is that it is essentially a backdoor for the Chinese government to get into the data of millions of Americans. And it sounds as though the Supreme Court was persuaded by that argument to the extent that they're not going to get in the way of this.

CARRIE CORDERO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Right. So, this decision, as it came down, is consistent with how it sounded the justices were going to go when they had their oral argument. It also is consistent with what the D.C. Circuit ruled. It clearly upholds the government's position, which is that the Chinese government, the Communist Chinese Party had the ability to manipulate data of Americans that was on the app. And so it is a resounding upholding of the government's position that this posed a national security threat.

I do worry long-term whether this type of approach as a policy matter on behalf of the government is really sustainable, whether or not there could be another app that is also Chinese or some other authoritarian country that then will also present the same types of issues and approaching it in this law-specific way to a particular app raises questions about whether that's really a sustainable approach.

ACOSTA: Right. There's this whole question as to whether or not the U.S. government is going to be playing whack-a-mole with these apps, because there are already people racing to these competitors of TikTok coming out of China.

And, Joan Biskupic, I did want to ask you, I mean, in terms of the way the justices came down on this, anything surprise you? What'd you make of that?

BISKUPIC: No. You know, I tell you what's great, what's interesting and important for the country is, you know, within seven days, they were able to do this because they had just held the arguments last Friday. They turned it around quickly. They had signaled early, which I think was good for everyone to know, so people on the Hill the Biden administration, the incoming Trump administration, they kind of knew already what they were up against.

Justice Gorsuch, who did write separately, had stood apart from the other justices as being more skeptical of the government span last Friday, and he has written separately. Justice Sotomayor also wrote separately.

And one thing I'll mention about her, and I don't know yet if it's in her opinion now. It's 27 pages, and, of course, we haven't really looked at that, Jim. But during oral arguments, she did raise concerns about what President-elect Trump might do with any kind of executive order. You know, we've all been talking about whether the incoming president could do something to put a delay on that. She noted that under the law, the ban, it could only be suspended for the 90 days, as the law says, if there were, you know, true negotiations going on for the sale. And she suggested that maybe that some companies might not want to risk that uncertainty and continue to service the app during the period of uncertainty. But that's just all, you know, kind of speculative for what might happen if President-elect Trump does then go ahead on the 20th and try to do something to block this.

ACOSTA: Well, let me ask you about that, Paula Reid. You and I were over at the White House during the first Trump administration. I seem to recall Donald Trump having a different view on TikTok back in those days. He's certainly changed his tune now. And there's some talk that he may try to put a stop to this ban, or at least temporarily pause it as he comes into the Oval Office on Monday. What do we think about that? What are your thoughts?

REID: Yes. It's unclear how he would be able to do that unless he's able to broker a deal to have a TikTok divest from his parent company. Because, remember, this is the highest court in the land. They are upholding a law passed by Congress.

But as you know, I think that it's important to point out that First Amendment protections are usually given sort of the highest scrutiny by the court. But here the court says, look, we hear your concerns about the First Amendment and about expression. And Carrie was expressing some concerns a couple of minutes ago about, well, could this holding infringe on First Amendment protections later on? The court said this. They said, we emphasize the inherent narrowness of our holding. So, they're saying this decision is very narrow and specific. They're acknowledging that data collection and analysis is a common practice in the digital age.

But TikTok's scale and susceptibility to foreign adversary control together with the vast swaths of sensitive data, the platform collects justify differential treatment to address the government's national security concerns. And they're saying that laws that would target other apps that, you know, don't have this relationship with a foreign adversary would be treated differently.

[10:10:03]

So, they do appear to be addressing these concerns and saying, look, this is very narrow, and this is specific to TikTok based on the types of data they are collecting and their allegiance to a foreign adversary.

So, now there's going to be a lot of pressure on the incoming administration to broker some sort of deal to separate TikTok from ByteDance, which is the only thing that would get around these national security concerns and allow them under law to continue operating.

ACOSTA: Very interesting, Paula.

Let me go out to Elie. Elie Honig is standing by. Elie, I want to get your thoughts on all of this and whether or not Donald Trump could potentially do something coming into office on Monday. Could he put a pause on this? And I have to think for parents of teenagers out there like myself, there might be some folks doing some touchdown dances this morning because they might temporarily get some of their kids off of this highly addictive app for a while. But, I mean, what are the real -- I guess, life, real politic implications here in the coming days?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I definitely feel that concern, first of all, Jim. This is a devastating ruling for TikTok. Not unexpected, but there are still three things that could happen that could at least temporarily save TikTok. First of all, the law says that if the president certifies that negotiations have commenced in a meaningful way, that they're working towards a deal to sell TikTok to a U.S.-based owner that can put this law on hold for up to 90 days. So, that's option number one.

Number two, and a little more precipitous, the president can issue an order to the executive branch of the Justice Department not to enforce this law because the way these massive fines get enforced is really through the Department of Justice.

And then third, very, very unlikely, Congress could go back and either revise or repeal the law, but keep in mind, it was just passed a few months ago by massive bipartisan majorities in both the House and Senate. So, I think that one is by far the least likely. But, yes, and I should note, not just Donald Trump, but the president. So, Joe Biden is capable of taking either of those first two steps over the next three days, but, ultimately, this will likely land on Donald Trump's desk.

ACOSTA: Yes. And there are so many other implications to all of this.

I want to go to Brian Stelter and what this means for people who use TikTok. There are a lot of folks out there. This is their business. This is their livelihood. And I guess we should note to what Elie was talking about a few moments ago, there have been reports that the TikTok CEO plans to attend the Trump inauguration. So, perhaps they'll pull one another aside at some point on Monday and have a discussion about this.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: Yes. And we know that in the last few minutes, President-elect Trump said he has spoken with the Chinese president as well, and TikTok came up in that conversation. The TikTok CEO has been living in the U.S., trying to work this political negotiation, but here we are, right on the edge now, Jim, you know, for a lot of TikTok users who have built their lives on this platform.

There was a little bit of denial when the ban was first passed by Congress. People didn't really believe this was going to take effect. It seemed like it was months off in the future. But now that the Supreme Court has ruled, this is a moment of truth, including for those users, and as you said, those business owners who rely on TikTok. We're going to see users trying other platforms.

Now, this week, we've seen users in America gravitating toward other apps owned by China. That's precisely the whack-a-mole situation you described earlier, where people are going to these TikTok alternatives you see on screen. Some of them, like Clapper, are U.S.-based. They've gained more than a million users in just a week. But some of the other ones, like Lemon8, that's also owned by ByteDance, and it could be impacted by the ban in the future.

So, where will users go? How will businesses be affected? Those are two key questions going forward.

ACOSTA: Yes. And, Brian, I mean, Trump did put on Truth Social that he has been speaking with Chairman Xi Jinping of China about all of this. And I suppose if he does delay this ban from taking effect, I mean, one could argue that he is doing Xi Jinping a huge favor here just as soon as he's coming into office. I mean, there has been a lot of sound and fury up on Capitol Hill from both sides of the aisle, quite frankly, over the last couple of years about the dangers of TikTok and how it opens up the floodgates of America's data to the Chinese, and Trump would be doing Xi Jinping a solid here, wouldn't he?

STELTER: After coming out five years ago and calling for a ban. We're only here today talking about this because Trump was calling for a ban in 2020. He, back then, seemed to recognize the possible danger that TikTok posed.

His reversal on this has been stunning and is a big part of this story. But, you know, in the end of the Supreme Court ruling, it goes back to Congress and says, look, Congress made this decision for a reason. Congress has determined the divestiture is necessary to address its well-supported national security concerns. One of the first questions for a president like Trump once he takes office, if he ever holds a press conference, if he's interviewed by journalists, one of the first questions is going to have to be about TikTok and about his decisions here about national security versus, quite frankly, his popularity on the platform.

Because in recent weeks, Trump's posts about TikTok have emphasized that he has a lot of fans on TikTok, that some people have told him, you got elected, reelected, because of TikTok.

[10:15:08]

That's been the message that he's been emphasizing, not concerns about China, but his own popularity on TikTok. ACOSTA: Absolutely. And the relationship between Trump and Xi Jinping goes back to the first Trump administration. I can tell you from talking to my sources back then, and I've reported this on CNN, they apparently have a good, close working relationship. And that has been the case since his first time in office.

I'm going to go to Alayna Treene. She covered the Trump campaign. As Brian was just talking about this a few moments ago, Alayna, Trump has had a kind of a change of heart for TikTok, has a warm spot in his heart now for TikTok. And part of this is because there's a huge MAGA -- young MAGA base for that matter on TikTok. And I have to think Trump does not want to let that go, doesn't want to see that banned and wiped out.

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: I mean, essentially, Jim, he has said as much. I mean, I remember you know, that press conference at Mar-a-Lago where he said as much saying that he has a warm spot, as you mentioned, in his heart for it, that so many American voters, young people on TikTok, have used it and. You know, show their support through the app. So, that's definitely a part of this.

And one thing to keep in mind as well is that we know and we have reported that Donald Trump is considering quickly and swiftly an executive order once he is sworn into office that would effectively try to put a pause on this ban and try to find, you know, buy some time really for his administration to find some sort of solution, to negotiate some sort of solution with TikTok to save the app.

Now, also, I think you have to keep in mind, one, we know that Donald Trump has been in regular contact with TikTok CEO Shou Chew. We also know that Chew is going to be attending the inauguration on Monday and going to have a prime spot on the dais alongside cabinet members, family members and some other leaders of these big tech companies. But also, of course, as you mentioned, he spoke this morning with Chinese President Xi Jinping and said that they discussed TikTok on that call.

And one thing, of course, we know is that Donald Trump, as you mentioned, they have a warm relationship, Xi Jinping and him. Warm is maybe not the right word. They have had a cordial relationship and have spoken and been able to have conversations with one another. Of course, Donald Trump also has a tough on China policy. He has Marco Rubio now expected to be his secretary of state, if he is confirmed, someone who was sanctioned by Beijing.

So, it's an interesting and complicated relationship that Trump administration will have with China. But the fact that they've spoken, also worth noting that China, for the first time, is going to be sending one of its top Chinese Communist Party officials to Donald Trump's inauguration on Monday, that is a sign of them wanting to continue this sort of working relationship, perhaps a better relationship with the Trump administration than they had had with Biden. All of this is playing a big role on this.

But, again, we have to keep in mind that this is a stunning reversal that Donald Trump has made with his warming to TikTok from what we saw back in 2020, when just, you know, soon before leaving the White House, he was thinking about and trying to impose such a ban on TikTok and force them to divest from their Chinese ownership. So, there's a lot of uncertainty here, but you have to keep that in mind as well, how far Trump has come on this issue.

ACOSTA: Yes, no question. I mean, he's gone from wanting to ban TikTok to having the leader of TikTok at his inauguration. I mean, that doesn't get more of a 180 than that.

Let me go to Marc Stewart, who is out in Beijing. Marc, I understand it's very late there, but what are we hearing about this call between Donald Trump and President Xi? It sounds as though they did talk about TikTok, according to the incoming president here in, in the U.S.

MARC STEWART, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right, Jim. And that's not something that's actually been acknowledged, at least thus far by Chinese officials. This call is being summarized as diplomatic goodwill, for lack of better word, Xi Jinping calling for a new starting point in this U.S.-China relationship.

But when it comes to the matter of TikTok, let's be very clear. As someone who was here in China, Beijing does not want to come across or appear to be taking orders from the United States. So, what happens next is going to have to be something that China is very comfortable with, not just from a business standpoint, but from a politics and optics standpoint. Because as we have seen in recent years, China is trying to establish itself as a leader in a new world order, and it wasn't that long ago that it was referred to referring to the United States as acting like a bully with this whole TikTok debate.

So, there is this broader question of government involvement with this broader issue. And it's a point I talked about just last week with the U.S. ambassador to China at his residence here in Beijing.

[10:20:02]

Let's take a quick listen to part of that conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEWART: Which influence does Beijing have in this debate?

NICHOLAS BURNS, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO CHINA: We make the assumption. I certainly do, as ambassador here, that the Chinese government has ultimate complete authority and access to convince a state enterprise here in China or a private company to do what they wish them to do. This is an authoritarian government in an authoritarian environment. So, that is an issue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STEWART: So, some very strong words from the outgoing ambassador to China, but, Jim, as you've talked about before, this new administration, while extending, you know, a peaceful or a negotiating type backdrop with China, it has a lot of China critics, a lot of China hawks coming in, particularly Secretary of State Nominee Marco Rubio. As far as though this bigger question of government involvement, I have asked this question to government leaders I think now four times, and I have not been given a clear answer, which is not too surprising, Jim.

ACOSTA: No, not a lot of clear answers at this point. But, Marc Stewart, thank you very much from Beijing.

And, of course, we're going to continue to follow all of the breaking news on TikTok. The clock is ticking on TikTok. A ban is supposed to go into effect now on Sunday as the Supreme Court has cleared the way for the TikTok ban here in the U.S.

Stay with us, back after a short break for more analysis. Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:25:00]

ACOSTA: All right. Up on Capitol Hill right now, of course, the confirmation hearing for Kristi Noem for Department of Homeland Security continues. But in the meantime, the breaking news coming out of the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court has cleared the way for a TikTok ban to be implemented here in the U.S. starting on Sunday. This is a huge ruling from the Supreme Court. Not totally unexpected, of course, but at the same time has far reaching implications for Americans, millions of Americans, who have TikTok on their phone.

I'm back with my experts, analysts and reporters who've been covering all of this. Paula, let me go back to you first. I know you've been digging through this decision. What's the latest? What more can you tell us?

REID: Well, of course, this decision is not a huge surprise if you listen to oral arguments. The justices across both sides of the aisle appeared skeptical about TikTok's First Amendment argument that that could override these national security concerns. And I think there's a little bit of confusion about what specifically the concern is.

And, again, Congress passed this law potentially banning TikTok with broad bipartisan support because there were concerns about the way TikTok collects data. And the concern is that they could use that data and manipulate it specifically in the event of a crisis.

And the justices talked about why this specific data collection is of such a concern that it overrides First Amendment argument. So, they're saying, quote, speaking with and in favor of a foreign adversary is one thing, allowing a foreign adversary to spy on Americans is another. They also say the platform collects extensive personal information from and about its users. TikTok, quote, does not dispute the government has an important and well-grounded interest in preventing China from collecting the personal data of tens of millions of U.S. TikTok users, nor could they. The platform collects extensive personal information. So, you can see their concern is about the breadth and depth of information that TikTok collects and then how it could be used by a foreign adversary. And this is something that lawmakers on both sides of the aisle have gotten behind and support. Although now it will fall to President-elect Trump, if he wants to save this app, to get underway, at least start some really good faith negotiations about divesting TikTok from its parent company, ByteDance.

ACOSTA: Yes. Elie, I do want to go to you to ask about the First Amendment implications of all of this, because, obviously, you know, a lot of Americans feel like, hey, why, why can't I have access to TikTok? This is how I exercise my right to free speech. I use TikTok to talk about whatever cause that I have or the business that I run and so on. What about the First Amendment here?

HONIG: Yes, Jim. What makes this decision so interesting, so important is it's a straight on collision between the First Amendment on one hand and the national security concerns that Paula just laid out. On the other hand, TikTok's main argument here was it would violate the First Amendment to simply get rid of us as a company. TikTok argued to the Supreme Court in their brief and in the court, we are the largest social media company in the United States, over 170 million users, that's half the population. And TikTok essentially says whether the speech that's engaged in on our platform is silly dance videos or, in some instances, actual political discourse, it's protected by the First Amendment.

And it's worth noting, TikTok had support from several pro First Amendment groups, but the First Amendment is not absolute, and I think in this case it was a resounding decision by a unanimous Supreme Court, 9-0, that the national security interests here, especially as assessed by Congress, really outweigh any First Amendment concerns.

ACOSTA: Yes, and there's strong pet content on TikTok as well. We can't forget about that, Elie. I mean, we all love our dogs and cats, and they have a big prominent role on TikTok too.

Brian, let me go to you. Forgive a little bit of levity there as we break this all down. But what will actually happen to the app on Sunday? Because, you know, we all have our phones, I have my iPhone here, everybody has their phones, and, I mean, to me, this sort of touches Apple to or touches Samsung, whatever kind of phone.