Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Biden Affirms Equal Rights Amendment; Supreme Court Upholds Ban on TikTok; Trump Inauguration Moved Indoors; Interview With Former Acting Deputy Secretary of Homeland Security Ken Cuccinelli. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired January 17, 2025 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:02]

KEN CUCCINELLI, FORMER ACTING DEPUTY SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Well, they cost a whole lot more than they pay in, and I think that's pretty well-established by a lot of different entities.

So the idea that we're somehow losing money by deporting people who are breaking our laws strikes me as a bit silly, frankly, and it doesn't bear up under the numbers.

I would also point out that when you limit and close in as close as you can on zero to mass illegal immigration, which is typically unskilled labor, you create job opportunities and wage growth for poor American people.

We saw this in 2019. Again, the data bears this out. The people who will benefit the most from a strong and successful Donald Trump immigration policy will be the poor people of America, American citizens who are poor.

So we're going to see more of that as time goes on. I also think, in terms of the cost, you do raise an excellent point. Nothing happens without putting effort in, and effort includes partly money.

One of the ways to achieve what Mitt Romney famously called self- deportation is to strictly limit work permits to those who have proven their legal presence in the United States, combined with shifting what Homeland Security investigators from their wide array of duties today to focusing overwhelmingly, that's 5,000 agents, overwhelmingly on worksite enforcement that includes criminal charges to American business operators who are exploiting illegal aliens to improve their profits, their bottom line, but also denying Americans job opportunities.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Well, I think the question too for these companies is, if the workers they were lying on who are here illegally were deported, would they have to pay more for American workers? And would that be passed down to the consumer?

Of course, all of this is part of the conversation.

CUCCINELLI: Right. BROWN: I do want to ask you, though, as you sort of lay out this scenario of if their target, their first target is a criminal who is here illegally, right?

CUCCINELLI: Sure.

BROWN: And I think the estimate is about 8 percent of the 11 million here illegally are -- have criminal convictions. And that criminal is in a home with others who are here illegally, a family, for example, with small kids who are in school, or dreamers, for example.

CUCCINELLI: Right.

BROWN: And we know that Donald Trump has said he's open to figuring out ways to keep dreamers here. What do you do in that situation?

CUCCINELLI: Well, as a simple matter of efficiency, you deport everybody you come across who's here illegally.

If the folks in Congress want to make a legislative arrangement that addresses a certain category of people, for instance, the ones in DACA, then they can go ahead and do that. And maybe they should do just that if they want to make a deal on that.

But until that day comes, those folks are here illegally. And the Obama administration and the Biden administration's efforts to create less illegal categories of aliens is not something that should be tolerated by allowing them to not be part of the deportation effort.

Those folks should be deported just as much as everybody else should. But, to your original point, if you go to deport a criminal alien, by which we mean someone who committed an additional crime in this country, if you're in the house and you identify five other people who are here illegally, the Biden administration has not deported those people.

As a simple matter of efficiency and to drive down costs, they should be immediately put into the system for deportation. That's just simple math, and it saves money, as opposed to costing money.

BROWN: All right, well, we appreciate you coming on to give your perspective.

Ken Cuccinelli, thank you for your time.

CUCCINELLI: Good to be with you.

BROWN: We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:38:39]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BROWN: Breaking news. CNN has learned that president-elect Donald Trump's inauguration is expected to be moved indoors on Monday because it's supposed to be dangerously cold on Monday in Washington.

CNN's Alayna Treene joins us now.

What are you learning, Alayna?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: That's right. Donald Trump's team has been in discussions about how to handle these dangerously frigid temperatures.

And we are told by multiple sources familiar with the planning of the inauguration that they are now planning to move the swearing-in ceremony for both president-elect Donald Trump, but also vice president-elect J.D. Vance, into the Capitol Rotunda.

Now, of course, this means that the tens of thousands of people who were planning to travel to the National Mall to witness the swearing- in in person are going to be cut off from that.

So now, when I talk to Donald Trump's team and, again, the sources who are familiar with some of these -- the decisions that are being made, they argue that they are still in the process of trying to figure out how to handle the other broad festivities.

Normally, there was going to be an inaugural parade. We know that there's several high-profile singers like Carrie Underwood who are supposed to be singing that day, other festivities. All of that is under consideration. Some of those are also in talks to be moved indoors as well.

I was also told that some of the parade and other festivities could potentially be hosted at the Capitol, one arena where Donald Trump is holding a rally on Sunday. But, again, some of this is still fluid, but, as of now, we are told that they are expected to have the main event, the swearing-in of Donald Trump and J.D. Vance, to be happening inside the Capitol Rotunda on Monday -- Pamela.

[11:40:19]

BROWN: Yes, it would be moved indoors for the first time since 1985 with Ronald Reagan. You do have to wonder what's going through Donald Trump's mind, because we know how he is about his crowd sizes, Alayna. We know how he was during his last inauguration.

TREENE: No, exactly.

I mean, look, Donald Trump wants -- there's no question he wants his inauguration and Inauguration Day to be this massive event. He has invited world leaders. He has invited high-profile CEOs of major tech companies. This, he wants to be a huge event on the world stage.

And now the fact that it might have to be or it's expected to be indoors is definitely not something that I think Donald Trump was hoping for or expecting. Now, I will also add that, in my conversations with those on the transition team and involved in this, they argue that this is a health concern.

There's a chance that people who are outside for prolonged amount of times could get hypothermia. I mean, that is the reason that this is happening, but definitely not something I think that they were anticipating or wanting to really be the result of this, Pamela.

BROWN: All right, Alayna, thank you so much.

And when we come back, we're going to go back to our top story, I will speak live with one of the people who the TikTok ban could affect the most, a designer and woodworker who depends on the app to make a living.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, now that the Supreme Court has upheld the ban on TikTok, what will the millions of users do, especially the ones who use the platform to help make a living?

[11:45:01]

Joining us now is TikTok content creator and owner of the Glam Farmhouse, Christina Shuler.

So, Christina, if you would, just tell us quickly about how you have been using TikTok and how this ban will impact you.

CHRISTINA SHULER, TIKTOK CONTENT CREATOR: Yes, I have used TikTok for several years now, not only to advertise and show how I do things here in my woodworking business, but I have also kind of utilized TikTok's content creator program to where I can actually get paid for views and promoting their products on there to earn a commission.

So it's actually helped supplement my business and grow it even more.

BROWN: So it sounds like it's important to your personal brand and your business, your livelihood, basically, right?

SHULER: Oh, yes, it's -- I would say the TikTok has brought in almost 40 percent of the money that I bring in just because of the commissions and the views, the pay -- money I get for the views that I get.

There's a few videos with millions of views of me building different projects for my home or for clients. And so it's pretty great to have that extra income, especially when things have gone up in price over the last few years.

BROWN: So, what are your thoughts on the reasoning behind the ban related to potential national security interests, that China could take the data of all these Americans and essentially spy on Americans? What do you say to that?

Does it concern you? SHULER: Well, absolutely. I mean, any time our national security is a

threat, I definitely want to make sure we stay safe as a country and keep our businesses, our families, everyone in the United States safe.

But we also -- I guess, from our viewpoint, we -- if we're going to ban this -- the TikTok, we want to also -- we're questioning -- I have bought things from Temu and Shein. And if it's a real national security, I want to make sure we're protected. And we also need to look into some other apps as well.

BROWN: Yes, there are other apps owned by the Chinese that people are actually fleeing to as a result of this TikTok ban and not knowing what's going to happen with it...

SHULER: Yes.

BROWN: ... if they're going to continue to use TikTok. That's on the screen right now, some alternatives, including RedNote, which my understanding is you're now on, right?

SHULER: Yes.

BROWN: So tell us about that. And have you had followers follow you there? Is it as lucrative as TikTok?

SHULER: Well, I have only been on there for a few days. As you know, it kind of blew up on TikTok. I think on Tuesday, around Tuesday is when RedNote really blew up on TikTok and people started downloading it.

So I -- as any other content creator knows, there's always going to be a new social media platform coming in the future, just like MySpace went to Facebook, Facebook went to Instagram, Instagram went to TikTok. There's always going to be that ever-revolving door of new social media apps coming out.

And as a social media content creator, it's kind of our job to be on the lookout for those and try to jump on to them as quick as possible, because the people who get on there first are usually the ones that can really utilize that app the best.

And so I wanted to make sure I downloaded that app. And so far it's -- I think it's been great so far. The comments have been nothing but kind and supportive, and I haven't had any issues. Like I said, it's only been five days, so I can't speak too much on it. However, so far, I think it's been great.

BROWN: Christina Shuler, thank you so much for coming on to chat with us about this.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:53:46] BROWN: In his final days in office, President Biden wants to ensure the Equal Rights Amendment is the law of the land. And he's told the archivist of the United States to certify and publish it.

Now, Congress approved the amendment more than 50 years ago, but it never became part of the Constitution because all the states didn't get on board in time.

CNN's Arlette Saenz is at the White House.

So, Arlette, what can you tell us? Because this is something that will meet legal challenges likely, right?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: It certainly will, Pamela, and this has been a long, winding road for the Equal Rights Amendment.

It is President Biden's belief, he said today, that this is ratified, that it is the law of the land. But there are real questions about where this goes next. As you mentioned, the Equal Rights Amendment, which enshrines women's rights, was passed in 1972, but it took decades to actually get the necessary states to ratify it.

It requires for a constitutional amendment for three-quarters of the states to sign on, and it wasn't until 2020, when Virginia became the 38th state to ratify this amendment. But then that's where part of this hits a snag. There was an initial deadline for ratification, which was passed, and then also there are some states who have since rescinded their ratification.

[11:55:00]

But President Biden is saying that he is siding with the American Bar Association's analysis, which has determined that they have cleared all legal hurdles to make the Equal Rights Amendment a constitutional amendment.

President Biden said: "It is long past time to recognize the will of the American people. In keeping with my oath and duty to Constitution and country, I affirm what I believe and what three-fourths of the states have ratified. The 28th Amendment is the law of the land."

But this is simply President Biden's opinion. In order for this to actually be a constitutional amendment, that would require the archivist of the U.S. to go and publish this. And so far, the National Archives is saying that the legal precedent really hasn't changed.

They said the underlying legal and procedural issues have not changed, that there are established legal, judicial and procedural decisions, so they are not making any changes at this time. But, certainly, there will be a lot of questions about what this looks like going forward and whether legal challenges might ensue.

BROWN: All right, Arlette Saenz, thank you so much.

Clearly, President Biden trying to make a statement as he leaves the White House.

Thank you so much for joining us. I'm Pamela Brown. You can follow me on Instagram, X and TikTok, at least for perhaps a couple more days anyway, @PamelaBrownCNN.

Stay with us. "INSIDE POLITICS WITH DANA BASH" starts after a short break.