Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsroom
Senate Voting On Defense Secretary Nominee Pete Hegseth; McConnell Votes Against Trump's Defense Pick Hegseth; Four Israeli Hostages Set For Release. Aired 2-3a ET
Aired January 25, 2025 - 02:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[02:00:00]
DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: -- all big crowds here, wait until you see what it's like in China. And that's this weekend on "The Whole Story" Operation Panda".
Kate, I think it's going to be an experience for most folks to take in, to just realize that there is a belovedness about these creatures, not only here in the U.S., but really, globally.
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: Thanks for joining us. The Source starts now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN Breaking News.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: As we come on the air tonight, senators just started the final confirmation vote on President Trump's controversial pick to leave the Pentagon. Pete Hegseth himself has just arrived on Capitol Hill to watch this proceeding up close.
We're told that he's in a room with his family near the Senate floor. You are looking live at the floor, because right now, this hour, his fate is uncertain. Senate Republican leaders and the White House are closely watching two major wild cards this evening.
We just heard from the Senate Majority Leader, John Thune, who said he is not sure how Senators Mitch McConnell and Thom Tillis are going to vote. Now, if both are nos, along with Senators Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins and every Democrat, Hegseth's nomination will be defeated on the floor.
If only one of them is a no, we could see the Vice President brought in to have to break a tie, something that rarely happens for a Cabinet nominee. For his part, we heard from President Trump earlier today asking reporters for their insight. How is Mitch McConnell going to vote?
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't know what's going to happen. You never know in those things. But Pete's a very, very good man. I hope he makes it. I hope he makes it. I was very surprised that Collins and Murkowski would do that. And, of course, Mitch is always a no vote, I guess. Is Mitch a no vote? How about Mitch?
(END VIDEOCLIP)
COLLINS: One thing is certain tonight, it is going to be close. Probably closer, potentially, than any vote for Defense Secretary in modern history. You can see here, almost every nominee in the last 50 years has had overwhelming bipartisan support until tonight.
I want to get straight to Capitol Hill where CNN's Manu Raju has been working his sources. Manu, obviously a lot of uncertainty going into this evening. Where does this stand right now as this vote is just getting started?
MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this vote is on a knife's edge, Kaitlan. Uncertainty looms in the Senate GOP leadership. They are cautiously optimistic that they will get there, but they simply don't know for sure. Because they are watching Senator McConnell very closely, Senator Tillis very closely. And if they vote no, they'll be enough to sink this nomination.
Now, it's very possible that J.D. Vance will be needed to break a tie. In fact, I just caught up with the Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman Roger Wicker, who he said he's been talking to senators all day. And he also told reporters, he said, quote, "I think we will probably need to see the Vice President".
Now, if Vance comes in and breaks a tie, that would be the second time in history that the VP has been needed to break a tie for a Cabinet nominee, just showing how contentious and partisan this fight has become over the past several days.
Now, all day long, Tillis has faced calls and talked to a number of senators, including Senate Majority Leader John Thune. Tillis himself is up for re-election in 2026 and undoubtedly would draw the ire of Donald Trump if he were to break ranks with him.
Mitch McConnell is seen as a wild card as well, no longer the Senate Republican leader, someone who is free to sort of vote his will. Uncertain if he would run for re-election. But that is not on his mind.
He has kept his cards very close to the vest, which is why there is so much uncertainty at the moment, even as Republican leaders believe that he barely will get confirmed in this hour. There is still a possibility that it all collapses if those two senators decide to break with their party, which is why so much attention is being paid to them as they come to the Senate floor in a matter of moments, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Yes. And I was out there this morning at the White House. Trump told us he just assumes that Mitch McConnell is a no vote. Obviously, a lot of animosity between the two of them. But what is it that you've heard about Tillis? Why is this -- why has he been the center of everyone's focus today as to how he's going to vote?
RAJU: You know, he has not said. In fact, they have been radio silent publicly about how he views this. We do know he's been talking to senators privately. Now, I did catch up with Senator Tillis yesterday because I had heard that he was considering weighing how to vote on this nomination.
He told me that he wants he's going through all the allegations of misconduct from Pete Hegseth's past. He was looking for corroborating information, including in a recent affidavit from an ex-sister-in-law accusing him of treating his second ex-wife poorly and raising concerns about excessive drinking and the like.
Of course, Hegseth has denied those allegations. He said he'd know more in the next 24 hours if there was any additional information. So it's uncertain if that's what it is, Kaitlan, or if it's anything else as he has reviewed this nomination.
But senators, sometimes they vote one way in the procedural vote, which was yesterday, to advance the nomination on a simple majority, 51-49, moving to the final confirmation vote. Sometimes they vote differently on the ultimate vote, and we'll see if that happens here. But unclear what it is that has weighed down Tillis at this critical moment. Kaitlan?
[02:05:05]
COLLINS: OK, Manu, we'll be checking in with you throughout the hour, obviously, as we are watching this vote get underway.
Our source joining us tonight is a Republican senator who just voted, Jim Banks of Indiana. Senator, what do you expect to happen here? Do you think Pete Hegseth is ultimately going to get confirmed tonight?
SEN. JIM BANKS (R), INDIANA: Yes, Pete Hegseth is going to -- he has the votes. He's going to be confirmed. He's going to be sworn in tomorrow to be the next Secretary of Defense. It took a few days longer than we wanted it to, but it's going to happen tonight. There's a lot of confidence on the floor.
I just cast my vote for Pete Hegseth, and Republicans are confident that we're going to get it done tonight.
COLLINS: Have you spoken to Senator Thom Tillis?
BANKS: I haven't. I haven't spoken to the others who are rumored to be against him either. But I expect him -- I expect Pete Hegseth to get 50 votes, maybe more. JD Vance, the Vice President, is in the Capitol. He'll break the tie if he has to.
It's time to move on. We have a lot of other nominees to get to, to fill President Trump's Cabinet. We need them to get to work right away. But this is the most important one. The Secretary of Defense has to get across the river to the Pentagon to get on the job and do the job of cleaning up the Pentagon to keep America safe and secure. It's important that we get this done tonight. COLLINS: So you -- do you think that Vice President Vance will be needed to ultimately break this tie?
BANKS: There's a possibility of that. He's here in the building in case he's needed to cast the tie-breaking vote. Either way, as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter. Let's get this over with. Let's get Pete Hegseth over to the Pentagon.
There's a lot of important work to do, a big mess to clean up from the last four years at the Department of Defense. Pete Hegseth is a reformer. He's ready to go. He doesn't back down from any fight. Obviously, we've seen that over the last few weeks.
He's ready to go. We've got to get him on the job and move on to the other important nominations as fast as we can.
COLLINS: Yes, you talk about the state of the Pentagon. And obviously, this is something that a lot of your colleagues are taking seriously as they take this into consideration. And normally, when there's a defense secretary vote, it's not always very political.
And you just mentioned the 50-50 margin that you think could come down here, which would require Vice President Vance to break the vote. If that is the case, it would be the smallest margin of a confirmation vote for any defense secretary in modern history.
I think Chuck Hagel was the other closest. He was 58 to 41. What does that say about Pete Hegseth, in your view?
BANKS: I think it says a lot more about the Democrats. The Democrats have stalled this nomination. They're playing political games. It's been a given that we're going to confirm him, that we have the votes to do it for a number of days.
And as I said, it's a matter of national security to have a confirmed Secretary of Defense at the Pentagon doing their job. Frankly, I don't care if it's 50 votes plus the Vice President or 100 votes to one. This is a -- time is of the essence.
It's important to get him on the job. And it's unfortunate that the Democrats have played games through this. I expect them to play games with a lot of the other nominations. It's not just Pete Hegseth. There are other nominees across the board the Democrats are stalling as well, whose backgrounds might look a lot different even than Pete's or other nominees.
Let's get these Cabinet Secretaries in place so that we can get to work.
COLLINS: Murkowski and Collins are no votes. They're Republicans. Do you think they're playing games?
BANKS: I don't know what their reasoning is. I haven't talked to them about the nomination. But --
COLLINS: Murkowski said she didn't think he had the character to lead the Pentagon.
BANKS: Well, obviously, I disagree. I just voted to confirm Pete Hegseth. But it's the Democrats who have been playing stalling games and holding up the vote. And I'm glad that Leader Thune has brought that to an end.
We're voting right now. And by the time your show is over tonight, Pete Hegseth will be confirmed and he'll be sworn in tomorrow.
COLLINS: The question that some of your colleagues have had, even Republicans, were about the allegations about excessive drinking on behalf of Pete Hegseth. He has pledged that he will not drink if he is confirmed by the end of this show, which you believe he will be. Do you feel confident that you won't have any regrets or any concerns three months from now or six months from now about that concern with him running the Pentagon?
BANKS: Look, it's really sad that we've gone through weeks of anonymous allegations and a lot of what has gone into stalling and blocking President Trump's nominees, not just Pete Hegseth, but other nominees as well. So Pete Hegseth is a decorated combat veteran.
He's an Ivy League graduate. He's got the right -- he led troops into battle. He's got the right background to go to the Pentagon and be a disruptor and clean up a mess from the last four years. Never forget Lloyd Austin and Joe Biden and some of the leadership at the Pentagon, what happened in Afghanistan.
Lloyd Austin disappeared, went AWOL on the job twice and didn't tell the President that he was going to go missing. A lot of big issues at the Pentagon that we have to address right away. And that's why time is of the essence. Let's get Pete Hegseth on the job and tomorrow he will be on the job and we have a lot of work to do.
[02:10:06]
COLLINS: Yes, and just to say, you said it anonymous. That is what he said as well during the hearing. Part of that did come from his second wife in that statement to the FBI, but clearly you do feel confident he'll get confirmed and he's the right leader.
Senator Jim Banks, I know you have a busy night. Thank you for running over to the camera for us this evening.
BANKS: Thank you.
COLLINS: And I want to bring in CNN's Lauren Fox who is also live on Capitol Hill. Lauren, tell us what you're hearing because I know you were outside, stationed outside of Tillis' office earlier. What are you seeing tonight?
LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we are outside the U.S. Capitol where a lot of lawmakers come in for this vote and I actually just caught up with Senator Kevin Cramer. He is backing Hegseth and has been a strong supporter of him for several weeks now. But I did ask him what message it would send if the past Republican leader, Mitch McConnell, who obviously is just a rank-and-file member at this moment, what it would mean if he voted against Hegseth. And he said, you know, it might be a black eye on his legacy and his career.
But he also noted it is a senator's prerogative to vote exactly how they want to vote. But it is such an interesting moment because, obviously, we know McConnell and Trump have had a frosty relationship in the past. We also know they have very different views of what the U.S.'s role is around the globe, what the U.S.'s role should be in the war in Ukraine.
And I think there are some questions about where McConnell is tonight. He just walked onto the floor. And our colleague, Ted Barrett, said he was silent as he was walking onto the floor. Obviously, McConnell doesn't do a lot of hallway interviews, but given the gravity of this moment, given the fact we are all keeping a very close eye on him, just an interesting observation as we go into this vote that's ongoing. Kaitlan?
COLLINS: And, Lauren, I should note that Thom Tillis just tweeted that he will be a yes on Pete Hegseth. Obviously, there have been big questions on how he was going to vote. He had been pretty quiet today after asking questions about firsthand corroboration of some of the allegations against Pete Hegseth.
But he is now saying in a post on Twitter that he will be voting yes on Trump's nominee to run the Defense Department. Does that mean that Pete Hegseth is guaranteed to be confirmed this evening?
FOX: Yes. Now the drama is, are they going to need the Vice President potentially to break a tie? But, you know, Republicans can lose up to three votes and still get this nominee through. So the question right now is, what does Mitch McConnell do?
But even if he voted against it, even if Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins, who we know voted against advancing this nominee yesterday, they continue to vote no, which they've said they would. Then that puts you in a position where Vance could break the tie.
And Kaitlan, that is really the epitome of the drama for tonight. Hegseth would continue to be confirmed.
COLLINS: What has the evolution been like on Capitol Hill over the last, I guess, six weeks or so when it comes to this nomination? Because in December, when we were reporting from Mar-a-Lago as the transition was getting underway, there were real concerns for several days that Trump was going to have to pull Pete Hegseth's name, that it wasn't even going to get here.
And then, of course, we are now in this moment where Thom Tillis is saying, yes, he is going to vote yes on him. Joni Ernst has said she's voting yes. We have only two Republican nos so far.
FOX: Yes, I mean, there has been this drip, drip, drip of reporting about Pete Hegseth's past. At every turn, he's, of course, denied any wrongdoing, denied any allegation of sexual assault, denied any problem with drinking or alcohol in the past.
And I will tell you, from reporting that I have done, he went meeting to meeting with these Republican lawmakers, including some real skeptics, and had some very tough conversations, sometimes multiple times. That was the case with Senator Joni Ernst. She's a Republican woman on the Senate Armed Services Committee.
She expressed a lot of concern about his past statements on women serving in combat roles. She obviously is a veteran herself. And she got to a place where she ultimately could support him.
Now, there was quite a pressure campaign against her. And there was obviously a lot of concern that perhaps if she voted against him, that could mean something for her own re-election. She's up for re-election in 2026. What does that mean for a primary?
But I will tell you that Republicans over and over again in their meetings felt like Hegseth came in. He was extremely deferential to lawmakers. He was extremely prepared in a lot of these meetings. He had a really strong grasp, many Republican senators said, of the workings of the Pentagon.
Now, that wasn't enough for some people. Senator Murkowski made clear that her -- one of her key concerns was the fact he did not have the management experience to lead an organization as vast as the Defense Department. But, obviously, for a lot of Republican lawmakers, they got to yes, in part because of some of those one-on-one meetings that he had on Capitol Hill, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Yes. And in this statement from Senator Tillis tonight, who we were watching very closely as we came on the air, he talks about Pete Hegseth. He says he conducted his own due diligence after his nomination was sent to the floor, talking about asking tough questions of him.
[02:15:05]
He said he had candor and openness in answering those questions. He said he has a unique perspective as a veteran and unquestionably passionate about modernizing our military and supporting the brave patriots like himself who serve our nation. He said he will support his nomination.
When it comes down to looking at this, now the question is how Senator McConnell is going to vote. Trump said today he assumes he's just a no. That's -- I mean, Trump doesn't like McConnell, obviously. That's been very clear in many of his Truth Social posts. But he was walking out this morning about 12 hours ago believing he was going to be a no anyway.
FOX: Yes, and I mean, I thought it was really interesting. Our colleague Ted Barrett talked to Thune earlier today, and Thune said that he had sent a list to the White House of who was backing Hegseth. It's unclear what that list said exactly.
And obviously, McConnell did vote to advance this nomination yesterday, but it is not unheard of. It is not necessarily even uncommon that a Republican senator believes that they should continue the debate in the process in the United States Senate, but then ultimately decides to do something else on the final vote.
So it is just a question mark of, is that Donald Trump projecting what he thinks might happen with someone who he has not been close with on Capitol Hill? Or is Donald Trump in the know about something because of communication from Capitol Hill?
And I think we just don't know the answer right now. We may get more clarity on that shortly, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Yes, that's a great point. We know Vice President Vance is there tonight standing by.
Lauren Fox, we'll continue to check back in with you. Keep us updated on what you're hearing from lawmakers who are walking by you.
We're joined now by a Democrat, the Democratic senator of Connecticut, Senator Richard Blumenthal. Senator, what do you make of Thom Tillis' statement coming out tonight saying that he will be voting to support Pete Hegseth amid a big question today of whether or not he was going to be another no?
SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D), CONNECTICUT: Sadly and tragically for the nation, not surprising. The Republicans falling into line here under pressure from Donald Trump and the right-wing ecosystem, despite their knowing that this nominee is eminently unqualified and unprepared, is really saddening and shocking to me.
And I think this decision may haunt them. I hope that Hegseth will do the job because his success is America's success. And the lives of 3.4 million Americans defending our country and war and peace, life and death, depend on what he does. But I think that this decision by my Republican colleagues to fold to the Trump threats and intimidation is really very deeply disappointing. In fact, I find them spineless.
COLLINS: Did you ever meet with Pete Hegseth as he was up there on the Hill meeting with your colleagues?
BLUMENTHAL: He never met with any of the Democrats. We were denied --
COLLINS: He didn't meet with one Democrat?
BLUMENTHAL: Not one Democrat except for the ranking member of the committee, Jack Reed. But, Kaitlan, I think we have to be very clear. What's on the public record about his marital infidelity, his alcohol abuse, his sexual improprieties, his financial mismanagement of two veterans' organizations that he ran into the ground financially would be disqualifying if he were under consideration for promotion from colonel to general, from corporal to sergeant.
And my Republican colleagues know it. So I think we now need to hold accountable Pete Hegseth and my Republican colleagues because there is a continuing danger to our national security -- COLLINS: Well, Senator, can I interrupt you with some breaking news?
Because we have just -- we're watching the vote here. Mitch McConnell just voted no on Pete Hegseth. He had not said yet, as Manu said earlier, he was holding his cards very close to the vest. He has voted no on Pete Hegseth.
Obviously, really remarkable, you can see Senator McConnell just right here on the screen. He's on the Senate floor chatting with some of your colleagues. He was the Senate majority leader not that long ago. He was leading Republicans in the Senate trying to whip their votes at times.
What does it say to you that he just came out and voted -- I mean, he's not running again, so he's got that, but what does it say to you that he came out and said no to Trump's pick to run the Pentagon?
BLUMENTHAL: What it says to me is that he's voting his conscience and conviction. There is some question about whether he will run again, so he may feel liberated. But the fact is that the threats to my Republican colleagues of primaries, of funding and contribution cut- offs have affected the outcome here.
[02:20:02]
And as much as I admire his standing up, the rest of his colleagues have decided not to do so. And the vote, essentially, will have little or no meaning to the outcome because J.D. Vance will break the tie in favor of Hegseth.
COLLINS: But what does it say that JD Vance will have to come in and break the tie? With the Vice President doing so, I believe that would be only the second time in recent history that the Vice President has had to come in to break the tie for a Cabinet nominee.
We've seen it for judges and for other issues, other legislation, but for a Cabinet nominee, for the Vice President to have to come in, much less the defense secretary, which typically is not really -- it's bipartisan. Normally, people from both parties vote for that person to run the Pentagon because of just the gravity of that role.
BLUMENTHAL: You're absolutely right. And what it says is, we are in no ordinary time. We are in a time of maximum polarization where the Trump loyalty test prevails over doubts and reservations that my colleagues have and they know in their hearts, but fail to have the courage to stand up.
What we're seeing here is an extraordinary exercise of political muscle. But in the long run, let me just make very clear, Kaitlan, I'm going to hold my Republican colleagues accountable. If Pete Hegseth deploys our military to do surveillance and searches of people's home, if he denies opportunity to women or fails to protect them against sexual assault, if he purges the military ranks on the basis of a false loyalty test, all of these dangers may come to pass.
He's going to have to come through us. We'll fight him. We're determined to preserve the merit, the professionalism of our American military because it's essential to our national defense. And our military men and women deserve the best leadership because they are the best in the world.
They train constantly and skillfully to be the best. And that's what we're going to demand of Pete Hegseth.
COLLINS: You are the -- in the minority, though, and so I think the question is really what that pushback from Democrats looks like. Because, obviously, we heard from your colleague Jim Banks, who was just complaining that Democrats slowed some of these confirmation votes, but ultimately they are still happening.
So what does --
BLUMENTHAL: There's --
COLLINS: -- Democratic resistance look like in this kind of -- in this administration and with this Senate in Republican control?
BLUMENTHAL: What it looks like is what we're doing right now, trying to expose the truth, despite an FBI report that has gaps and inadequacies, despite the denial of an opportunity to meet with this nominee, despite the denial of a second round of questioning during the hearing.
But we do have agency. We have votes that will determine what appropriations go to the Pentagon and we'll have votes over other nominees. And we will hold accountable our Republican colleagues in the court of public opinion. They're going to have to stand for election.
The American people will not tolerate playing politics with our military. They may want change. And Donald Trump is talking about a change agent at the Pentagon. But what he has done is install a chaos agent and one who may well dumb down the Pentagon. So we have to hold our Republican colleagues accountable.
COLLINS: But, Senator, my last question for you. I watched a video today of when Secretary -- Defense Secretary Mark Esper, in Trump's first term, came out and said he wasn't invoking the Insurrection Act because he thought that putting the U.S. military in law enforcement roles was a last resort scenario, last case worst situation you could think of, and that he wasn't going to do that.
What do you do here if that is something that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth is willing to do? Do Democrats have any options there?
BLUMENTHAL: We have options because we have the power of the purse. We have the appropriations power. They need us because of the filibuster rule, because debate can be extended indefinitely, not for these nominations necessarily, but otherwise for legislation in order to pass it. And they do need cooperation from us in some ways.
But ultimately, we have to go to the voters. The American people have to -- have a say here, and they will have a say if Pete Hegseth encounters the kind of difficulties that we predicted. But here's why I am so deeply saddened and outraged with my Republican colleague.
[02:25:02]
In the meantime, he could do a lot of damage because the powers over 3.4 million Americans who defend our nation and the budget of $850 billion gives him powers that are so hugely determinative of the future of our nation.
And we need to --
COLLINS: Yes.
BLUMENTHAL: -- stand up and fight.
COLLINS: It's a huge position, and it looks like he is about to be confirmed there. We'll see what happens with the Vice President coming out.
Senator Richard Blumenthal, thank you for running over to the camera and joining us on a very busy night on Capitol Hill.
Speaking of running around the Hill, I want to go back to CNN's Manu Raju, who has more information. Manu, the big question was why -- how Thom Tillis got to yes. What have you heard about that so far tonight?
RAJU: Yes, in fact, he just briefly spoke to reporters as he walked onto the Senate floor, and he said that he had spoke to Pete Hegseth for nearly two hours amid new allegations that have come out in recent days. Those allegations, of course, the affidavit that was written by his ex-sister-in-law, Hegseth's ex-sister-in-law, accusing him of abusive behavior, excessive drinking towards his second ex-wife.
Hegseth has denied all those allegations. And, in fact, he sent a letter to Thom Tillis just before the vote responding to those allegations, and he had conversations with Tillis as well. And that seems to have been enough to satisfy Tillis.
Tillis told me yesterday he needed to see corroborating evidence with that affidavit in order to essentially vote against this nomination, but apparently did not see enough evidence he believes was enough to kill this nomination altogether.
But Mitch McConnell's vote is very significant, even though it looks like Hegseth is on his way to get confirmed on the 50-50 vote with the Vice President breaking a tie. That would be only the second time in history that has happened for a Cabinet nominee, a VP breaking a tie.
Seeing Mitch McConnell break ranks with his party, with Donald Trump's nominees, also suggests a bit of a wild card. As McConnell adjusts to life in the rank-and-file, no longer the Republican leader, he has told colleagues that he has the shackles off and he can vote his will.
Now, he does not have to necessarily toe the line as a Republican leader. And there are some other key nominations coming down the pike, Kaitlan, including Tulsi Gabbard, that's someone for the Director of National Intelligence, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. for Health and Human Services, McConnell's seen as a swing vote on those two nominations as well.
So what will this vote say about how he will approach the rest of Trump's agenda, the rest of his Cabinet nominees, something to watch as the Republican -- former Republican leader breaks ranks and now forcing VP JD Vance to come in and break a tie to get Hegseth over the finish line, barely. Kaitlan?
COLLINS: Yes. And so he spoke to him for two hours, and Hegseth also sent Senator Thom Tillis a letter, Manu?
RAJU: Yes, that was essentially it, at least the questions that Tillis had. He said that he needed to speak to Hegseth. Hegseth responded to those questions. And not just Hegseth responding to those questions, other Republicans also weighing in directly with Thom Tillis.
The Majority Leader of the Senate, John Thune, spoke to him several times through the course of the day. So no doubt Thom Tillis, up for re-election in 2026, potentially could face a primary as well, has faced enormous pressure to get in line, to fall in line, but believes that his questions have been answered about those allegations of --
COLLINS: Yes.
RAJU: -- abusive behavior and the like. So that's how he got to yes, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Yes, that's remarkable. Great reporting there, Manu Raju.
Everyone stay with us, we're going to take a quick break, but we are watching closely because we do believe we're going to see something, as Manu noted there, that you don't ever see. The Vice President having to come in and break a vote for a Cabinet nominee only the second time in modern history. We'll be back with that moment in a quick second.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[02:33:11]
COLLINS: And we are watching closely on the Senate floor as we are waiting to see Vice President JD Vance come out on the floor to break the tie we believe is expected here on Pete Hegseth's confirmation as the next Defense Secretary at the Pentagon.
The reason he's going to be needed to come out and break that tie is because there are three Republican no votes on Pete Hegseth, Lisa Murkowski, Susan Collins, and Mitch McConnell. Trump this morning, as he was leaving the White House, predicted that this would be the case and that McConnell would ultimately vote no on Pete Hegseth.
He was holding his cards quite close to the vest. And seeing JD Vance come out here and break this tie will be something that you don't often see for a Cabinet nominee. It's only the second time that this has ever happened in modern history.
But we are waiting to see him come out on the Senate floor where you're seeing the senators chat with their colleagues as they are waiting for this vote for Trump's Defense Secretary nominee to be final and over.
My political panel is here at the table with me. And it's great to have both of you here. Shermichael, we're looking at this letter that Pete Hegseth just posted, because Thom Tillis was -- it was not clear how he was going to vote --
SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.
COLLINS: -- on Pete Hegseth's nomination. He actually had a claim from his sister-in-law once upon a time. I don't believe she's a sister-in- law anymore, where she made all these allegations about him and his actions toward his second wife.
He's sent out this very detailed letter that I just read that he sent to Senator Thom Tillis, disputing her characterizations, saying that some of them he believes are false or made up or inaccurate. But it clearly shows how on the fence Thom Tillis was that this required a letter from Pete Hegseth to him disputing these allegations one by one.
SINGLETON: I mean, look, he has a right to defend himself, but it wasn't just Pete Hegseth defending himself, it was also the voters of Tillis' state. I remember talking about this two months ago.
[02:35:03]
And you slowly began to see Republican and Conservative activist groups within the state and across the country beginning to showcase their ire against Tillis, saying you need to support the President. He's also up for re-election pretty soon.
COLLINS: In 2026.
SINGLETON: And the last -- exactly. The last thing he wants is the president of the United States going against him, because I think if that were to happen, he would probably lose. We have seen what happens when Republicans don't vote in the direction of the Republican voters who voted them into office. Most of them are now retired. I think Tillis made the right decision because he saw the writing on the wall.
COLLINS: What's your view of just watching all of this shake out and the fact that this is going to be -- we don't ever see a defense secretary nominee vote this close? Carl Hulse did a great breakdown of The New York Times earlier today with just the numbers.
Chuck Hagel was the closest, and he was at, I wrote it down here, 58 to 41. We're about to see a 50-50 vote, we believe, for Pete Hegseth.
ASHLEY ETIENNE, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR VP HARRIS: Well, I mean, it's primarily because of his character, his actions, what we know about who he is as a person, not just how he treats women. And this is not just from his former sister-in-law, this is also from his mother.
Remember, his mother put down in an email --
SINGLETON: Right, which she retracted, by the way.
ETIENNE: Yes, because you now have a child, I have a child that we don't want to hurt our children's feelings. But the reality is we have to be honest with them. You don't put it -- put that in an email to your child unless it's actually true.
So nevertheless -- so that's what it boils down to its character and its competency. And too many Republicans had questions on both of those facts. You know, that's why the two senators are deciding -- three senators. And now Republicans are deciding they're not going to vote for him.
But here's the thing is, Trump could have gotten any number of people to run the Defense Department. Why Hegseth? That's really the question here --
COLLINS: And some of his nominees are getting through overwhelmingly. I mean, Marco Rubio, a senator, so obviously, has goodwill with his colleagues and he's getting that. But this is getting so bad that -- but can I just read --
ETIENNE: Go ahead.
COLLINS: -- two posts as we're watching this all happen in real time? JD Vance just tweeted with the crying, laughing emoji. I thought I was done voting in the Senate, because he's coming -- to come back in here and break this tie --
ETIENNE: I mean (INAUDIBLE) and he thinks that this is a joke. We're talking about the Department of Defense, the largest, most aggressive, well-funded military in the world. Not only do people in this country, but the world depends on the Department of Defense.
And you're going to now install someone who we're not even sure that he's a recovering alcoholic.
SINGLETON: OK, so --
ETIENNE: There is no dispute about that particular issue.
SINGLETON: Wait, no, no, no, no, we're not going to do that.
ETIENNE: No, no. I mean, the reality is this, senators, all the American --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN breaking news.
POLO SANDOVAL, CNN HOST: Hello and welcome to all of our viewers watching from around the world. I'm Polo Sandoval joining you from New York. We are closely watching a developing story out of the Middle East.
Hamas, any moment now, expected to release four Israeli hostages as part of the Gaza ceasefire agreement. Her names -- their names, Karina Ariev, Daniela Gilboa, and Naama Levy. The three of them turned 20 in captivity. Then there's Liri Albag, she's 19.
All four are members of the Israeli military. They served as lookouts at a military post overlooking Gaza when Hamas attacked on October 7th. Now, in exchange, Israel is expected to release 200 Palestinian prisoners.
Again, we're watching a very fluid situation right now on the ground in the Middle East, as is CNN's Paula Hancocks, who joins us live from Abu Dhabi with what we know right now as we see these live pictures out of Gaza City. Paula?
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Polo. So this certainly shows that there is activity. This is in the Palestine square of Gaza City. And what we are seeing is potentially dozens, maybe more of Hamas fighters that have gathered in this particular area.
You can see them that they are masked. They are armed as well, many of them holding the Hamas flag. And it appears as though they are preparing for this hostage release. Now, this has just happened in the last few minutes or so.
They are in this particular square. You can see the white cars there, the white trucks. They are believed to be Hamas cars. So some of them have the flag on as well. And certainly it appears as though this is the preparation for the release of those four female Israeli soldiers that you mentioned there.
The four soldiers who were at the Nahal Oz military base back on October 7th, 2023, when they were taken hostage. Now, we also saw them back in May. There was a video that the families of those women agreed to be released to the public, which showed them standing against a wall. It showed them bound by the hands, their bodies bruised and bloodied.
The families at that point said they wanted that video to be seen so that more pressure could be put on the Israeli leadership and also on the mediators on Hamas to try and secure this hostage deal.
[02:40:12]
We are now, though, seeing that this is about to be the second in the release of Israeli hostages as part of this first phase of a three- phase deal, a ceasefire deal that has been secured between Hamas and Israel and with the help of mediators, the U.S., Egypt and Qatar.
And then we are also expecting, in return, for there to be some 200 Palestinian prisoners released as part of this. Now, they were less released a week ago, because the agreement is that 30 Palestinian prisoners will be released for every Israeli hostage. But if they are a soldier, they are considered higher value by Hamas.
And so there will be 50 Palestinian prisoners released in return for each one of those soldiers. They will also be prisoners, many of them, 120 of them, who are serving life sentences. Now, we understand not all of those, in fact, many of those will not be going to freedom in the West Bank or in Gaza, but will be deported to a third country. And there will also be 80 more Palestinian prisoners who will be released who are serving longer sentences. So you can see that there are members, it appears, of the public, some with Hamas flags, some with the flag of Palestine, appears to be children. They're waving the flag as well, as this does appear to be the organization, the readiness for the next four Israeli hostages to be released. Polo?
SANDOVAL: And Paula, on the topic of readiness, it's just pretty remarkable to see. This looks really quite choreographed from the flags that they're holding to that line that they've set up there, where the rope has been set up.
Comparing these pictures that we're seeing out of Gaza City right now, comparing it to the first release, does it look like everything is, you know, quite similar here? Like everything appears to be on pace and we are on our way to seeing those pictures of those four young women, those four Israeli soldiers being handed over?
HANCOCKS: I mean, it's a good point, Polo. This is highly choreographed and there is an important message that Hamas is trying to send to Israel and send to the rest of the world. It says, we are not defeated. We have not been completely destroyed.
And they have this organizational ability still within Gaza itself. As you say, it does look very organized. We saw a podium a little earlier. There was certainly the crowds being kept in check by Hamas.
Hamas is very much in charge here in this particular image. And that is obviously the image that they want to show the rest of the world as well. When you heard, for example, that the former U.S. President Joe Biden saying that Hamas had effectively been destroyed to the point that they would not be able to carry out another October 7th attack.
When you see these images, they will obviously raise concerns within the Israeli government, within the Israeli military, that they are not destroyed, that they are still able to be in charge, at least when it comes to releasing these hostages. Polo?
SANDOVAL: This is almost even offer a preview of what it could look like if the ceasefire is extended or potentially made permanent, when those negotiations once again resume in a few days' time between Hamas and Israel.
Like you said, this is really quite symbolic here in Hamas, hoping to send a message not just to the world, but specifically to the Israeli Prime Minister, who has really been reluctant to give up any ground in these negotiations.
HANCOCKS: And we've heard from the Israeli Prime Minister as well, saying that the goal -- the war goals, which was destroying Hamas, have not yet been reached. Now, we did hear in his -- one of his leaving speeches, as he was on his way out, the former Secretary of State, Antony Blinken, saying that they believed that there were many who had been recruited to Hamas within Gaza during this war.
Also pointing out that the importance of having a post-war governance system in place, because during the 15 months, as soon as Israel believed it had defeated Hamas in a certain area, they moved on to the next area, leaving a vacuum in that area that had been so hard fought after.
[02:45:11]
And then Hamas was able to move back into the area, regroup and rebuild, which is something that Israel and the military said had happened in northern Gaza. That was their rationale for a punishing operation over recent months in northern Gaza, where they say that there were hundreds of Hamas operatives, many of whom they said they killed, many of whom they said had been detained.
But what you're seeing -- and I should point out, this is a tiny pocket of Gaza. This is not necessarily representative of what we would see across the whole of the Gaza Strip if you spoke to people. But support for Hamas in Palestine Square at the moment in Gaza City appears to be intact.
The number of flags, those green flags, the Hamas flags, alongside the flags for Palestine, it shows that this is not a group that is defeated. But I must caution, this is just a pocket of the whole of the Gaza Strip. This is obviously where Hamas is congregated at this point, where they are wanting to show this message of strength. It doesn't necessarily represent the level of control that Hamas would have across the Gaza Strip. Polo?
SANDOVAL: Yes, that is such an important point. This is just one frame. Yes, it is showing a large Hamas presence, but it is just that one pocket.
Paula, I will let you go so you can continue to monitor the situation here and do come to us at the moment that you see any significant development. Really appreciate all of your reporting right now as the situation gets underway.
While Paula gathers a little more reporting there, I want to go now to Gideon Levy, he's a columnist with the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, joining us now via Skype from Tel Aviv. The news that you're receiving right now, I'm wondering if you could just share your immediate reaction, especially if you have access to some of these live pictures coming out of Gaza City right now with a very significant Hamas presence on the ground ahead of this hostage release.
GIDEON LEVY, COLUMNIST, HAARETZ: So, like the former times, it's a great excitement with anxiety. Not only will they be released, it's quite clear they will, but in what condition will we get them? And what about the continuance? Because it's still a small drop in a quite big ocean.
There are still dozens of hostages whose fate is not known. And the second phase of the deal is a bubble in a big, big, big question mark.
SANDOVAL: Let's talk about the geopolitics. It's 9:47 a.m. in Gaza City. It's 2:47 in the morning in Washington, D.C. You can bet that the Trump administration is likely up right now watching these pictures. How important do you think it will be for the brand new Trump administration just a few days in to see these images of these four female soldiers being released, being handed over to the Israelis? How do you think that this will go for the Trump administration, this latest hostage release?
LEVY: So, this is maybe the most important question, because by the end of the day, Donald Trump will have a major, major influence about the next phases to come. He acted very dramatically and very -- in a very tough way to make Netanyahu sign the deal, and I think that this was remarkable.
I have my fears that he might lose interest about the continuance. I'm not sure that the Trump administration is so moved by the release of the hostages as it is about the future of Gaza. That's the main issue for when you are speaking about geopolitical questions and not only human and humanitarian questions.
And here, I hope Trump will show the same devotion that he showed in the -- bringing Netanyahu to sign the deal, also in implementing it, because, as I said before, the major challenge is now the second phase and the third phase, namely to put an end both to the war in Gaza and to the Israeli presence in Gaza. Those are the real challenges.
SANDOVAL: Right. And you and I have spoken at length about that. The true test is really still on the horizon, and certainly the negotiations that are likely to resume in the coming days. I want to now speak a little bit about what you've co-written about the Palestinian prisoner, again, as we monitor the situation here in Gaza City.
[02:50:04]
You did co-write about Palestinian prisoner Khalida Jarrar, who was imprisoned without charges since December 2023. Recently, she was released by Israel as part of the ceasefire deal. Speak to the juxtaposition. When you see the images that we're likely to observe in a few moments here, compared to the image of her and of those three Israelis that were freed, even her appearance tells the story.
LEVY: Absolutely, Polo. And it's important to remember that there are Israeli hostages who are released, and that's great, great happiness to their families, to their people. But at the same time, there are also dozens and dozens of released Palestinian hostages.
And you may call them hostages because a woman like Khalida Jarrar, who was released this week on Monday, she had no charges against her. She was five times in jail without trial, four times without trial. Once, she was sentenced for a quite minor thing.
By the end of the day, she was a political prisoner. By the end of the day, she was kept in horrible inhuman conditions, and you could see when she was released. I mean, I saw her the night that she came out, and many of her friends and people who know her didn't recognize her, just didn't recognize her.
The next day, she looked much better, but it was quite shocking to see her. She was kept in isolation ever since August, total isolation in a tiny cell without anything in the cell, without nothing. I mean, no radio, nothing, nothing, nothing.
A naked cell from August until now, totally isolated from the world, not seeing anybody, not talking to anybody. This is also inhuman. And the day that the Israeli hostages are released from terrible conditions, I'm sure, it's very important to remember that there are hundreds and thousands of Palestinians in quite similar conditions, at least part of them.
SANDOVAL: Gideon Levy, with a very important reminder, this is certainly a tale of two heartbreaks, and there are many people who are waiting for this moment. So we'll let you continue to follow the situation in Gaza City. Thank you so much for providing some analysis.
Now, as we now get --
LEVY: Thank you, Polo.
SANDOVAL: Of course. As we now get ready to head to my colleague CNN's Jeremy Diamond, he is live in Tel Aviv. Jeremy, you've been watching these pictures along with us. What do you make of this? Could these four young women presumably get handed over any moment now?
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Well, it certainly seems that way. What -- the scenes that we are watching play out right now inside of Gaza are very similar to the ones we saw play out last Sunday. Crowds of people beginning to gather, flags being raised, Red Cross vehicles en route to that very same location.
And that is where we saw what seemed to be quite a chaotic scene, although one that also managed to serve as a bit of a show of force for Hamas after more than 15 months of war, where they showed that they were in control of a quite rowdy crowd. They showed that they were out in force, weapons drawn and able to actually facilitate this transfer of three hostages last week.
Today, we are expecting four female Israeli soldiers who were taken captive by Hamas on October 7th at a military base near Nahal Oz along the Gaza border, that they will be the ones to be released today, ending, you know, 15 months of uncertainty and agony for their families, ending 15 months of captivity for them.
And in exchange, we know that there will be at least 50 Palestinian prisoners released for each one, including 30 who are serving life sentences. And that is a higher, a steeper price, to put it kind of in the most direct terms, than for the four -- for the three female civilian hostages who were released last week.
And that is because of the fact that they are indeed soldiers, in addition to it just being 50 Palestinian prisoners, they are requiring that 30 of them be prisoners who are serving life sentences.
I have not yet seen the list of those 50 or the 30 in particular, but make no mistake that there will certainly be among those 30 individuals who are -- have been sentenced to life sentences, likely in connection with attacks that have been carried out against Israelis.
SANDOVAL: Jeremy, I'm hoping that you might help us preview what could happen in the coming hours. Could you just tell us, based on what we saw just a few days ago during the first release, what can we expect to happen after Karina, Daniela, Naama and Liri, these four young women, are released, as we expect that to happen any moment now? What will happen next after Hamas gives them up?
[02:55:27]
DIAMOND: Well, once Hamas transfers them into the custody of the International Red Cross, the Red Cross will drive them in their vehicles to an Israeli military position along the Israel-Gaza border. They will then be transferred to the Israeli military, who will then take them to a military base where their families, at least their mothers, we understand, will be waiting for them, much like happened last week.
They will get a kind of initial physical and mental health evaluation by IDF medical personnel on staff there, and they will be quickly reunited with their mothers. Last week, we saw that they spent a couple hours at that base before ultimately boarding helicopters and then being transferred to a hospital here in the Tel Aviv area.
So we are expecting a very similar choreography. And we also know that every single release that happens, the process becomes a little bit more fluid. The process becomes a little bit easier. And the trust also that needs to exist between Israel and Hamas to facilitate these exchanges of hostages and prisoners becomes more fluid as well.
And so we are now on the second wave of these releases that we are expecting to see over the course of the next six weeks, as long as this deal actually holds up, as long as the ceasefire holds up, as long as Hamas continues to release hostages and Israel continues to release Palestinian prisoners.
Every single week over the next five weeks now, we will indeed see a wave of hostage releases, a wave of Palestinian prisoners exchanged. And then, of course, we still have this looming question of whether or not this ceasefire can actually be extended and whether it can be extended to allow for the release of the remaining Israeli hostages.
And, you know, it's interesting, in -- of the hostages who have been released last week, we have seen them and their families continue to call on the Israeli government to ensure that this deal becomes something more enduring, to ensure that all of the remaining hostages held in Gaza are released.
SANDOVAL: Bearing in mind that the live image that we're seeing right now out of Gaza City, it shows just one pocket, it's just one frame of the entire region, so it's not perhaps an accurate reflection of what we would see in other parts of Gaza.
What is the message that you think Hamas wants to send by standing in a row, standing armed, flags waving? What message do you think they want to send, A, the Palestinian Authority, B, the prime minister of Israel, and then lastly, perhaps the world?
DIAMOND: Well, I think it's a very similar message. It is a message of, you know, we are still here. We are still here. After more than --
SANDOVAL: Yes.
DIAMOND: -- 15 months of war, after Israel carried out a fairly unrelenting bombing campaign inside of the Gaza Strip for the last 15 months, deployed ground troops to every single part of the Gaza Strip, Hamas is showing that it is still here, that it is still standing, that it is still armed, that its fighters are, you know, still very much present.
And that is not only a message of defiance that raises questions about Israel's military strategy in Gaza and kind of overall big-picture strategy, but it is also a message that is sent to the people of Gaza to know that even if they are thinking, maybe there is an alternative to Hamas.
You know, we have heard anger at Hamas over the course of the last 15 months from the people of Gaza. This is also a message to show that they should still be feared and that they will still be in charge of the Gaza Strip, no matter what the next steps in the process are.
SANDOVAL: Yes, it's a reminder of the fragility of this and the language in this deal quite ambiguous, according to so many experts that I know you've talked to, we've all spoken to, that may allow the prime minister to potentially pull out of this ceasefire, which would be contrary to these images that we're seeing right now.
Finally, can you just -- in speaking to some of these families on the Israeli side, what has to be going through their mind, seeing, for lack of a better word, the stage is set for their four daughters to be released? Give us some insight into what they must be thinking as they're seeing these images of Hamas armed fighters forming a line, preparing to essentially give up their daughters in a few moments.
