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CIA Sends Buyout Offer to Its Entire Workforce; Thousands Face Layoff As White House Aims to Dismantle Agencies; Musk Moves to Rapidly Reshape Government Without Checks or Balances; President Trump: "The U.S. Will Take Over the Gaza Strip." Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired February 05, 2025 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:38]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news this hour, sweeping layoffs and buyouts inside President Trump's plan to gut the federal workforce. The new details being revealed this morning. Republican Congressman Mike Turner will join me live.

Plus, a jaw-dropping proposal. President Trump saying that the U.S. will take over Gaza, a territory that more than 2 million people call home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), U.S. PRESIDENT: Good job. And I do want to take Gaza Strip. That's a lot of press. Congratulations. You bring them out, you really bring them out. Today, it would be so magnificent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: This morning, Palestinians are reacting. Hear from them straight ahead.

And then later, swift reversal. The U.S. Postal Service is again accepting packages from China and Hong Kong after not taking them for about 12 hours. So what is behind the sudden change? If you have whiplash, don't worry. I do too. We're going to dive into that, up next.

Well, good morning, everyone. I'm Pamela Brown in Washington and you are live in the CNN Newsroom.

And we begin with breaking news. The CIA is now the first major national security agency to offer buyouts to its entire workforce. And we don't know how many people we're talking about because the CIA does not disclose how many people work there. And this comes after CNN's Alayna Treene reported overnight that the White House is planning sweeping layoffs as federal employees who don't accept a resignation offer now face losing their jobs.

So let's get straight to Alayna at the White House with all of this new reporting.

First off, Alayna, what is happening at the CIA?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Well, look, Pamela, we know that last week, the Office of Personal Management and really just the White House overall had been offering this what they call deferred resignation program for 2 million federal workers.

Now, that was not initially extended to national security officials and employees noting. I think an apparent cognizant, of course, of their critical function to the security of the nation.

However, we did learn that starting Tuesday now, employees at the CIA are now being offered this. We are told, and this is according to our reporting from Katie Bo Lillis and Kaitlan Collins, that CIA Director John Ratcliffe was behind this and he personally wanted employees at the CIA and within the agency to have this type of option and to be able to opt in to the program.

Now, this seems like a recently new decision. As of last week, we know that many people at the CIA were questioning whether or not they would be able to try and get into this deferred resignation program. Now we are learning that they are. Of course, the questions are who can actually do this? Are there people who will not be able to opt into this? Again, given just how critical the CIA is, of course, to the security of the United States.

BROWN: And the White House now saying that the layoffs will be coming for those who don't resign. Tell us a little bit more, Alayna. I know you laid out some, but how soon could this happen? How many people could be impacted overall here?

TREENE: I mean, these are sweeping. When I've talked to my sources about this who told me about these expected layoffs, they said they are going to be very widespread and apparently it's going to be coming as soon as tomorrow. So we know that this deferred resignation program, some people have been referring to it as buyouts, is they have a deadline employees, federal workers, to opt into it by February 6th.

Again, that is tomorrow. So very short timeline for them to make that decision. But after that, I'm told we will begin to see sweeping layoffs. This is all part of, of course, President Donald Trump's, but also Elon Musk and DOJ's big attempt to massively reduce the size of the federal workforce. And this could touch all different agencies.

Now, we do know as well, according to a one Trump administration official told me that about 20,000 people, actually, they said way more than 20,000 people, have opted in to the deferred resignation program to receive that package. They expect a lot more people to do so by that deadline tomorrow. But I do want to read for you just what one of these officials told me because they're really warning that whether or not they decide to opt into this, their jobs could still be under threat.

This is what they said. They said, quote, "The reality is clear. A large-scale reduction in response to the President's workforce executive orders is already happening. The government is restructuring and unfortunately, many employees will later realize they missed a valuable once-in-a-lifetime opportunity."

[10:05:11]

So, of course, the Trump administration is trying to frame this as being something that is a generous offer to employees as they plan for these really widespread, again, sweeping layoffs to come.

Pamela?

BROWN: Lots of questions including the fact that the federal government is only funded right now through the CR --

TREENE: Right.

BROWN: -- through March, so a lot of questions and also about the legality of all of this. We're going to explore later in the show. Alayna Treene, thank you so much.

And I want to talk more about this with Susan Reichle, a Retired Senior Foreign Service Officer with USAID, an agency that has hit especially hard in all this.

You, Susan, are planning on attending this rallying the next hour in support of USAID and I want to be clear you've left the agency before the second Trump administration, but you worked there for 26 years and you were hearing from those who work for the agency. What are they saying to you?

SUSAN REICHLE, RETIRED SENIOR FOREIGN SERVICE OFFICER OF USAID: Well, I've been talking to my former colleagues and dear friends and as we say at USAID, we're one family. And I've been talking to them around the globe and they're confused because the message that came out yesterday calling for their withdrawal and the withdrawal of America from places that are critical that we have USAID officers was come -- it came in the form of a message that did not have a name attached to it, did not have instructions and says by tomorrow at 3 p.m. everybody will be informed of who is essential and then essentially who's put on administrative leave to great expense and cost to the American taxpayer.

BROWN: So you say that they're in places that are critical. Help us better understand what you mean by that, why you think it's so critical? Do you think lives could be lost because of this move?

REICHLE: Absolutely. Lives are being lost very sadly because of what has happened over the last two weeks. As you know, an executive order was issued by President Trump. Every administration has done a foreign aid reform. As career servants, we welcome changes in administration to review what has been done. But what was different this time is there was a stop work order, which meant everybody stopped all programs stopped.

That meant that Children who are waiting for TB vaccines who were in long lines all of a sudden were told, I'm sorry, you can't get that TB vaccine. That food that came from Kansas, $350 million of food is sitting rotting in American ports because of this stop work order. So lives are already being lost sadly because they do not have access to medicine and to food. But more importantly, we're leaving a vacuum for China and Russia. They are rejoicing right now because if America withdrawals, they fill that vacuum and that makes us less safe.

BROWN: And what is the impact on the USAID employees? You know, some of whom have really dedicated their lives and uprooted their families to move overseas to do this work now being given this -- this as you put -- put out that this confusing notice.

REICHLE: Yes, I was talking to several of them into the wee hours in the morning last night because they are out there really in harm's way. Many of them are in conflict zones, whether it's Sudan, or the Democratic Republic of Congo, Haiti, Colombia, very difficult environments. And they're receiving this confusing message.

And you bring your families, it's -- it's very similar to the military. When we move overseas, we come with our families, if we can bring them with us. And so they're in schools, they're part of communities, they're special needs children.

I spoke -- spoke to an officer last night, who has two special needs children who will not be able to get the medicine for epilepsy. If returned to the U.S., it's just chaos. And why would we do this to people who have dedicated their lives to serving?

BROWN: All right, Susan Reichle, thank you very much for offering up your perspective on all of this.

And joining us now is Republican Congressman Mike Turner of Ohio. He sits on the Oversight and Government Reform Committee.

Congressman Turner, thank you so much for coming on. First, I just want to get your reaction to what we just heard from Susan there. She says that that lives are being lost because of this move, and that Russia and China are going to now fill the vacuum left behind. What do you say?

REP. MIKE TURNER (R-OH): Well, certainly this is disruptive. But you have to understand, we, one, have to get control over all of our budget and of our spending. This is essential. We cannot continue to operate in the manner we are. We are, you know, trillions and trillions of dollars in debt because of really irresponsible ways in which we have managed and operated the federal government.

[10:10:09]

Secondly, we really have to get the government to be more responsive to the senior leadership, the senior policy leadership. And what we certainly found in the last Trump administration is that, you know, it took years before even portions of the government were responsive to senior leadership.

In this instance, what we're trying to do and what I think that the leadership of, you know, the Trump administration is trying to do is trying to find ways in which, certainly in the area of foreign policies, you're hearing from Secretary of State Marco Rubio, how are we going to make certain that this responds to the Secretary of State.

Now, the -- in doing so, it's going to be disruptive. I don't believe lives are being lost, but I do believe, and certainly Americans have an understanding that a lot of their aid, as it's being distributed, sometimes doesn't really get distributed in a manner where it's clear that this is America that is distributing it.

Sometimes we don't win against China and Russia and other countries in that message of where America is present and where America is making a difference. We need to make certain that it is America that is there and that it is that we are establishing those relationships, that it is our goals and objectives that are being achieved. And sometimes it has to be disruptive as we review those processes to make certain that they're being responsive.

BROWN: And you say that, you know, it is disruptive. That is true. But there's a real question here. Is this the right way to go about this? A lot of Americans want there to be, you know, a weeding out of fraud, abuse, and waste in the government, right? But is this the right way?

You have the White House now targeting up to 10% of the federal workforce. That would be up to 200,000 people let go. Now you have the CIA notice offering buyouts to all of its workers.

TURNER: And these are different issues. I mean, the issue of foreign aid and TB vaccines and the issue of personnel workforce, you know, in Washington. All of these are different issues, but they -- but they are issues all that need to be addressed because some of them are spending, some of them are policy, some of the manner which of how we do business. All of these things are issues that we need to address and we need to do it. You can't just, you know, wait and have them all get in line. We need to do them all at once.

BROWN: OK, so there are different issues, but guess who is at the helm of doing a lot of this, right? That would be Elon Musk. He is a tech billionaire, richest man in the world, wielding a ton of influence on this administration.

Trump confirmed that Musk has access to the Treasury Department's financial payment system, which sends out money on behalf of the entire federal government. He has a view only, the White House says. He's been leading the charge, dismantling parts of the federal government.

Are you comfortable with Musk's role as an unelected person who has billions of dollars before the federal government in the Trump administration and how he's doing this?

TURNER: Well, I think, you know, we certainly are always concerned when there's a bull in the China shop and that's certainly something that we're seeing here. And there are limits and there certainly are even court cases currently ongoing and in Congress, even as you saw in the USAID issue, you know, the Secretary of State is involved. Congress is being notified. Congresses have proposals that are coming before Congress. It is not as if this is being done completely in a vacuum. There are reviews that are ongoing.

Certainly though, you know, this -- this has to be with limits. I do think that some of the news reports are exaggerations of what's occurring and we certainly will find out.

BROWN: How so? What's your -- why do you think that?

TURNER: Because there are -- there are news reports that are based upon anecdotal stories of what is occurring or what Elon Musk is doing or has access to, as opposed to actually what's happening.

BROWN: But the White House -- I mean, the Treasury Department, the White House has confirmed, for example, that the Treasury payment system, they say, yeah, he has access but it's view only.

TURNER: Well, exactly --

BROWN: I mean, that's not just like an anonymous sources that's --

TURNER: But that comma, view only, that you just said, --

BROWN: Yeah, but he can --

TURNER: -- happens to be the most incredible important aspect because when you report that he has access to it, it makes it sound like he has levers and dials and can pull and push versus if someone's going to be making a recommendation, hold on a second, if somebody's going to be making a recommendation as to something that needs to be reformed, as to where there is fraud, having access, view only, is to be able to understand what is occurring, as opposed to some reports make it sound, like he's has -- you know, he's sitting there, you know, as, you know, Wizard of Oz with controls and dials with the Treasury system, which is completely different.

BROWN: I made clear -- and the question I made clear was view only, but as you well know, there are concerns among critics of this that why is this unelected person having access to all of this information about Americans payments that they're receiving and there's federal law, as you well know, that prohibits conflict of interest, prohibits employees from participating in matters that could affect their financial interests, government employees.

[10:15:03]

In his dual role, a special government employee, where is the accountability here?

TURNER: One thing that we know, our systems are out of control. Trillions and trillions of dollars in debt. There's fraud throughout the system and we're trying to get a handle on this and to the extent that view only, that portions of the system needs to be reviewed so that we can understand what reforms need to be put in place, we need to do this and we need to do it quickly because we're bleeding. I mean, as a -- as a federal system, the manner in which we have money going out the door where we need to find out how can we control these systems to control over the federal budget so that we can get back to --

BROWN: But hold on, hold on, let me just -- let me just follow up because you're not answering the question about accountability. No one is arguing I think that there should be reform in the federal government. The issue here is how it is being done and who is doing it? An unelected official, a person, I should say, who's a special government employee with conflict of interest before the federal government billions of dollars who's at the helm here. As a member of the Oversight Committee, what are you going to do to make sure he's held accountable and to make sure that he's not abusing his power here?

TURNER: I believe that there are checks and balances in the system. I do not believe that it's being reported accurately as to where those checks and balances are. And I believe that many times that little comma of like view only gives people the impressions that -- that they're -- the people are running amok in government and they're not. They're -- they're reviewing systems that we need to understand so that we can understand what's going on and put reforms in place.

BROWN: But --

(CROSSTALK)

TURNER: Because this is going to be --

BROWN: Elon Musk -- there's a hearing right now on all of this on the government reform and the actions. Elon Musk is not testifying. Do you think he should go and testify in front of the Oversight Committee and really lay out to you? Because you're saying, oh you don't believe a lot of these reports are overblown. Well, don't you want to hear from him directly about what exactly is happening?

TURNER: And I'm sure because he's not shy about doing that. I'm sure there'll be time for that. I'm sure he will do that.

BROWN: But let me just ask you, because, you know, I know you said that there are reviews happening in Congress, but there are a lot of lawsuits happening right now.

TURNER: And by the way, the Treasury Department has tons of lawyers. So again --

BROWN: OK.

TURNER: -- I believe there are checks and balances in place. It's not as if like, you know, the bank vault door is open and Elon Musk is sitting in there as the Wizard of Oz. I truly believe there are checks and balances.

BROWN: I understand. But I think there's still this big question of accountability, right? I think that Americans are looking at this and wondering, what is going on here? We didn't put this guy in charge, right? And he has a massive amount of power as the richest man in the world with all of this conflict of interest in front of the federal government. And we don't really have insight and a clear view of what is going on.

And when you take a step back, I know you say that Congress is reviewing, but there are a lot of lawsuits because there's a lot of lawyers who are out there watching us saying laws are being broken and there is a disregard for this. Agencies like USAID, money appropriated by Congress just being, you know, wiped away against the law. And as you well know, the framers created this system of government to have checks and balances.

Article 1 of the Constitution makes a legislative branch a co-equal branch of government to the executive branch. Is the legislative branch ceding power here to the executive branch right now?

TURNER: Well, you said a lot there, none of which yet has been determined. This is a -- this is a process.

BROWN: What hasn't been determined of what I said?

TURNER: Well, you said against the law. You actually --

BROWN: No, I said -- I said lawyers. I said lawyers have --

TURNER: I've argued that. I've argued that.

BROWN: That there are laws.

TURNER: This is a process.

BROWN: That there are laws that Congress made and at least four lawsuits have been filed alleging that laws have been broken.

TURNER: Every -- regardless of where you are on all these issues, everyone understands that, one, financially, we cannot keep going in the direction that we are. Two, that this system is massive and enormous and is out of control. Three, we have to move quickly to make certain that we do the triage, the assessment, to be able to find ways to be able to get this system under control so that we can protect the American public and get this back on track for both our economy, to stop these deficits and to protect our country.

This is going to be messy and sloppy and not pretty, but it's not going to be illegal and it's not going to be -- and it's going to be, in the end, the process that everyone wants and that is let's get this country back on track where we're living within our means and that we have a system that financially protects our economy.

BROWN: But you said, very quickly, and we got -- I know we have to go, but can Congress move quickly enough to do the checks and balances that you were given the power to do and hold certain people accountable? Can you move quickly? Because this is happening very fast. Can you do your job, your checks and balances job, as quickly as it is moving? TURNER: Absolutely. But we need the media to help us and make certain that you use those commas and explain actually what's happening.

BROWN: We're sticking to the facts here on this show and I'm very clear on the context.

TURNER: Because those -- because if you don't explain what's happening, people believe that people are running amuck in ways that they're not.

[10:20:01]

BROWN: I understand your point and your point is well taken. I've made very clear that I'm putting the important context and being factual, but even with the commas, but even with the commas, people have a lot of questions. And I appreciate you coming on to try to answer some of those questions.

TURNER: Pamela, thank you.

BROWN: Thank you very much, Congressman. We appreciate it.

And still to come, more fallout this morning after President Trump's proposal for the U.S. to take over Gaza. I'll ask the Israeli Ambassador to the United Nations about the President's comments and what it means for the region, up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Breaking news from Capitol Hill, Speaker Mike Johnson and other Republican leaders are speaking publicly for the first time since President Trump said the U.S. will take control of Gaza.

CNN's Manu Raju joins us now. Manu, what are they saying?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, actually there's either defending him or shrugging off this comment altogether. Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House just moments ago, was asked about this, indicated it was a surprising comment by Donald Trump last night. He said that repeatedly, this takeover Gaza idea, but one in which the Speaker suggested he could get behind.

[10:25:14]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON, (R-LA) SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Yeah, we're trying to get the details of it, but I think this is a good development. We have to back Israel 100%. And so whatever form that takes, we're interested in having that discussion. But it's -- it was a surprising development, but I think it's one that we'll applaud certainly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And I just caught up with the Senate Majority Leader John Thune, asked him a similar question about whether or not this was an idea that was worth pursuing, if it was a feasible proposal, and this is what the Senate Majority Leader said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Senator, what do you think of Trump's takeover Gaza proposal? Is that a realistic idea?

SEN. JOHN THUNE (R-SD), SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: (OFF MIC) We're going to bring a more peaceful and secure Middle East, and put some ideas out there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Shrugging it off of sourcing, just simply putting some ideas out there. Other Republican senators, including Senator Lindsey Graham, did not think it was quite a workable idea, but you're not really hearing nearly the amount of pushback that you're hearing from Democrats. A lot of Republicans think this is an idea that simply is far-fetched, something that never will actually be achieved, and that eventually the discussion will move on beyond this.

And as you heard from the Senate Majority Leader right there, not putting, seeming to be putting a lot of stock into this proposal. But the Speaker of the House very much defending what Donald Trump has said last night on multiple occasions that this would be something that's worth pursuing.

Pamela?

BROWN: Manu Raju, thank you so much.

Let's continue this conversation, joining us now to discuss is the Israeli Ambassador to the United Nations, Danny Danon.

Ambassador, thank you so much for joining us.

DANNY DANON, ISRAELI AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Thank you for having me.

BROWN: First of all, I just want to get your read on this. Do you think that this proposal, if you will, is serious or shock value bluster?

DANON: Well, first we are grateful that President Trump received Prime Minister Netanyahu at the White House yesterday, the first foreign leader to come to the White House after the elections. It shows the strength of the bond between Israel and the U.S. And we saw that the President is committed for Israel's security and future. And I think the idea he put up, you know, we were not prepared for that but I think it's about time to think out of the box.

Now we have immediate goals. We have to bring the hostages back today. We have to eliminate Hamas today. And we will continue to pursue those goals but at the same time this idea is an interesting one. It's not easy to implement it and we will wait to see what are the ideas that the administration has in terms of implementation. But for us, we cannot wait months or years for those ideas to be executed. We have to take actions and to make sure we bring the hostages back home. BROWN: And I want to get to the to the second phase of the deal soon but just to follow up, just looking at this overall, you know, Palestinians have a history of being displaced. They don't want to leave their land. Neighboring countries have said that they will not play a part here and rehoming them. You can't just remove two million Palestinians under international law.

I want to play how Palestinians, let's listen to them and how they're reacting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): This is a failed Israeli plan and it's impossible to transfer us from Gaza. We lived under bombardments for a year and a half. After all this suffering, starvation, bombardments and death, we won't easily leave Gaza.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): All of our children's homes have been demolished and our house is half destroyed. Rain comes into the house, cold is coming in and we will still stay whatever happens. Even if we stay in the tent, even if they give us castles and villas, we are not leaving our lands.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I want to die in my land, to stay in it. I was born in Gaza, lived in Gaza, studied in Gaza. I got married here and had my children. Whatever happens, I will never leave it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We will not leave. Occupation and colonization will vanish and we will stay.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So that is what they say. How is there a feasible execution of this plan without blatantly violating human rights of millions of Palestinians and international law? Do you see a way to do it without that?

DANON: Well, first, many leaders speak about the Palestinian cause for years, but they're not offering much. And I think President Trump is actually offering a new idea, so it's worthwhile to evaluate it. But I think we all agree that it should require the consent. Consent of people to move out from where they live and the consent for other countries to receive them. That's what we saw in other conflict areas, in Ukraine, in Syria. So nobody is actually pushing out anyone. It requires consent of the people who want to move to another place and the consent of a country that will allow them to come in.

BROWN: But President Trump made clear he wants the U.S. to take control of Gaza and did not rule out the use of troops. And as we've been talking about, any removal would be against international humanitarian law. Do you support this because it eliminates the possibility of a two-state solution?

[10:30:11] DANON: So, I would be very clear about it. I don't think President Trump is speaking about removing anyone or forcing anyone. He's creating an opportunity.