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Trump Proposes U.S. Forces Take Over Gaza Strip; Interview With Rep. Robert Garcia (D-CA); Musk, Trump Causing Fear and Chaos Throughout Federal Government; Interview With Rep. Gregory Meeks (D- NY). Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired February 05, 2025 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:06]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: And we begin this hour with uncertainty and fear inside the federal government, a lot of people wondering, what is going on here?

Workers are bracing for widespread layoffs by the Trump administration, many unsure how much longer they will be employed. And it's all part of the president and Elon Musk's plan to shrink the government work force.

Our breaking news this hour, the CIA has just become the first major National Security Agency to offer buyouts to all of its staff, with a few exceptions. That comes after White House officials announced that those workers who don't accept that offer to resign could lose their jobs.

USAID is being hit especially hard. A new directive states that all of the agency's staff around the world will be placed on administrative leave in just a couple of days.

We are covering it all for you this hour.

And I'm joined now by CNN's Alayna Treene and Alex Marquardt.

Alayna, I want to kick it off with you. What are you learning about this buyout for CIA employees?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, this is really the first we're hearing of any sort of a National Security Agency to be offered to opt into this program.

And I remind you, Pamela, that this was actually offered to two million federal workers last week. It was part of a mass e-mail that went out from the Office of Personnel Management under the White House, essentially saying that people could put themselves voluntarily on paid administrative leave, except pay and benefits, until the end of September.

But, again, this was not at first offered to national security agencies, kind of acknowledging the fact of their critical function to the security of the United States government. Now, we do know that the deadline originally for the people who were given this offered for the deferred resignation program is tomorrow, on February 6.

I am told, according to two Trump administration officials, that even those who don't opt into this, there are going to be widespread layoffs after that. So anyone who did not accept this program really could be threatened and to lose their job.

It was very -- it was made very clear to me, I should say, that these layoffs are going to be widespread, they are going to be sweeping. Now, again, I want to go back to the CIA part of this. Since this was not originally offered to CIA employees, we are told, one, that it's still unclear if everyone within the agency would be able to opt in to this program, to this offer and accept the buyout, but also that CIA rector, John Ratcliffe personally decided he wanted his agency employees to be involved in this.

So, of course, we are still learning exactly what the impact could be, how many people at the CIA would take it. It also seems like a new development -- and that's according to reporting from Katie Bo Lillis -- who was told essentially that, as of last week, people were still questioning at the CIA whether or not they would actually be able to accept this, if they could be included in this program.

So this all seems like a very much a new development. And, as you mentioned, it comes really, the big picture here, of course, is that President Trump and also Elon Musk at the helm of DOGE have been working very hard to massively reduce the size of the federal work force and really reshape it in the president's image and what he views the work force to be.

And so we are expecting widespread layoffs, and now we know that CIA employees are also able to opt into this program.

BROWN: All right. Thanks, Alayna.

Back to you, Alex. She was just talking about USAID, which appears to be on the verge of collapse. What more do we know about this and the impact that this could have worldwide?

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Massive.

It's impossible to overstate the impact. And I have been fielding calls from USAID officials both here in D.C. and all around the world who are angry. They are scared. I just spoke to one who said that they are all emotionally distraught.

Alayna there just touched on DOGE. DOGE is believed to be also behind what we are seeing is this rapid dismantlement of an independent agency, which, by the way, many in Congress, Democrats almost entirely, are saying is illegal, because the status of USAID is changing and is being absorbed by the State Department.

And that is against the law, many say, because it was created by an act of Congress. Pam, we have seen over the course of the past week this steady drumbeat of top career officials being put on leave, of contractors all around the world being fired and furloughed. And now we have this blanket statement from the acting deputy

administrator of USAID, Peter Marocco, saying that everybody around the world who is direct hires, so direct employees of the U.S. government, will be put on leave as of Friday night.

And what that means essentially is, they're not losing their jobs immediately. They get to go home and keep their pay. But you have thousands of people all around the world who are being shut out of their systems, their e-mail systems, the security systems, are being ordered home.

These are people around the world who have families. They have kids in school. Many of them are working in very dangerous situations. They would be abandoning projects that are keeping people alive.

[11:05:07]

And they need to figure out now how to come home, where they would live, what they're going to do for work. And then add on top of that, you have all these different layers of thousands of contractors who really hold up USAID and keep it functioning, who had already been kicked out of the system, who have no idea what their future is going to be.

And so many of these people can't do their jobs, they can't figure out what comes next, because the e-mail systems, the communication systems, they have been cut out of that. And that's before we even get to the freezing of all of this foreign aid.

The Trump administration has said that they have given a waiver to food and humanitarian aid around the world, that that can keep flowing. But it can't if there's no one implementing it. And it can't if the money flows aren't continuing. And it can't if people can't communicate.

So all of this work, all of these systems, and all these people really coming to a standstill. There is a lot of distress and despair in the aid community today, Pam.

BROWN: Yes, and we heard from someone who just retired from the agency who was on the last hour who conveyed that and was concerned that all this food is just rotting because it's sitting in the ports and it's not going to people who need it...

MARQUARDT: Exactly.

BROWN: ... and just the widespread implications of this.

And we're still trying to wrap our heads around it, right, as are the employees of the agency.

MARQUARDT: There's a lot of confusion.

BROWN: They don't know what's going on here.

Alayna, I want to go back to you at the White House, to switch gears for a moment, because we are just learning that the president is going to sign executive order which would ban transgender athletes from women's sports. And worth noting, this is National Girls and Women in Sports Day.

What exactly would this order enforce?

TREENE: Yes, well there are a couple of things. One, I think I just want to make very clear how this was a long-held campaign promise of the presidents and one that actually received a lot of attention and garnered a lot of support for him throughout his time on the campaign trial.

But I'm going to break down just exactly what is in this. So, essentially, as you mentioned, it is going to ban transgender female athletes from participating in women's sports. The order is going to be titled, Keeping Men Out of Women's Sports, a White House official told us.

And, essentially, it's two-pronged. Now, it's going to lean on compliance with Title IX, which prohibits discrimination the basis of sex and education programs or activities that receive funding from the federal government, as well as the federal engagement with the private sector.

Now, one key thing that they are going to try to do is really try to take the opposite position from the Biden administration and their guidance on how to implement Title Ian, we are told by this White House official. Essentially, the Biden administration established a rule that schools are violating Title IX when they ban transgender students from participating in women's sports.

Now, what's also clear is that they don't want to just keep it to this executive action. The president and other top officials within the Trump administration are saying that they really think that they can play a role in the governing bodies on this issue.

This is what we heard from Secretary of State Marco Rubio. He said that Rubio will be -- or excuse me -- this is an official saying this of Rubio. They said that: "Rubio will be using bodies like the United Nations to promote the administration's stance through reports on gender issues."

So, again, this is something we know that the president had promised he's been wanting to do. And we are really going to see him try to put that into action today at the White House with this signing ceremony. And, as you noted, it's a big day for women's sports, so obviously the timing not lost here at the White House, Pamela.

BROWN: Of course. Alayna Treene, Alex Marquardt, thank you so much.

And breaking news, House Oversight Democrats tried to move to subpoena Elon Musk to be a witness and testify about his DOGE effort, but were blocked by Republicans in an ongoing committee hearing.

Let's bring in our next guest, Democratic Congressman Robert Garcia of California. You sit on Oversight. What happened here?

REP. ROBERT GARCIA (D-CA): Yes, I mean, look, we were pretty clear that Democrats want to ensure that Elon Musk, who essentially is now a co-president in this administration and has incredible powers given to him by Donald Trump -- much of what he's doing, by the way, is illegal and unconstitutional.

And so Democrats want it to be very clear. We want Elon Musk in front of the Oversight Committee to testify. And so we introduced a motion to subpoena him. And, of course, Republicans, who have no real interest in oversight, blocked that vote.

But it's really important for folks to know that, this entire time, Elon Musk has only gotten richer. And so as his wealth has increased by hundreds of millions of dollars since the election, he continues to try to raid the government, give himself big tax cuts, and is now too afraid to come in front of the Oversight Committee.

BROWN: So I interviewed in the last hour your colleague on the Oversight Committee on the other side of the aisle Mike Turner.

He tried to argue that, essentially, what Musk is doing here is within the bounds and that there's reviews going on in Congress. He tried to say no laws are being broken.

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I know that the Democrats, majority of Democrats, say, yes, this is illegal and unconstitutional, as you say. There are lawsuits ongoing right now.

Here's what Speaker Mike Johnson just said about Musk's role.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): You know me. I'm a fierce advocate and defender of Article I.

I mean, look, we are the legislative branch. There's a reason the founding fathers put the Congress, the legislative branch as the first article in the Constitution, and we're going to vigorously defend that.

But what's happening right now, I think there's a gross overreaction in the media to what is happening. The executive branch of government in our system has the right to evaluate how executive branch agencies are operating and to ensure that not only the intent of Congress in funding mechanisms, but also the stewardship of precious American taxpayer dollars is being handled well.

That's what they're doing by putting a pause on some of these agencies and by evaluating them, by doing these internal audits. That is a long-overdue, much-welcome development. That's what the American people demand and deserve. And that's what's happening.

So we don't see this as a threat to Article I.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So what do you say to that? He said it's a welcome development.

GARCIA: I mean, that's laughable. I'm not sure what the speaker is talking about.

You're talking about the richest man on the planet, more wealth than anyone else, and what he's trying to do right now is to raid government agencies, destroy programs like the Department of Education, programs at the Department of Labor, at USAID, at the State Department, and to ensure that he can collect as much savings as possible to then give himself and his companies the largest tax break that he can find with all the wealth that's been hard-earned by the American public.

And, by the way, this is someone who he and his team have not gone through a national security process to check their credentials. We have a group of folks that are unelected, essentially unelected engineers and folks that work for Elon Musk, running around all of our agencies, shutting programs down.

The American public should be incredibly concerned, as we are, and fight and push back on this. This is highly illegal. We're taking this to the courts, and we're trying to ensure that Elon Musk comes in front of our committee and actually answers some of these questions.

BROWN: So, just to be clear for our viewers, look, those are the concerns of conflict of interests. We don't have any evidence as of right now that the actions Elon Musk has taken is personally benefiting him and his companies.

But there are those concerns because he does have billions of dollars of contracts before the federal government. And we don't really know exactly what's happening. And he is a special government employee. This is really unprecedented, right?

What else should your committee be doing in holding him accountable and holding the actions of DOGE overall accountable with those checks and balances?

GARCIA: Look, I think what's really concerning is you have Republicans out there right now talking about reforming Social Security benefits or eliminating certain types of Medicare benefits.

These are the kinds of things that should be very concerning. There's this effort going on right now to evaluate, as you know, the Department of Education. DOGE is looking at the one department in this country that does more for children with disabilities and giving them an actual opportunity to an education than anyone else, or food programs for the working poor and poor families.

These are programs that are critical in places like the Department of Ed and other agencies across the government. And you have a group of essentially young kids and Elon Musk running around. We have no idea what they're doing.

And I think what the public and your viewers should know is that we have zero clue as to what personal information of yours, of the American public they now have access to, our personal information, tax information, our Social Security benefits, the information your kids have as students in our public schools.

And they completely have complete access to these documents and information. So what we want are answers. And yet Donald Trump and Elon Musk are refusing to give us any. And that's why we're concerned. And that's why we're pushing on Oversight.

BROWN: You say they're refusing to give you any. What exactly have you done to try to get answers? I know I mentioned the subpoena, but just help us. Bring us in to what you all are doing, Democrats on the Oversight Committee, to get those answers.

GARCIA: Well, look, I mean, we have asked a variety of questions. We have sent numerous requests to the administration for answers. None have come back.

We're asking Elon Musk, who is the head of DOGE, to come in front of our committee and answer questions. That is being rebuffed by the Republicans. We have reached out to the White House and asked, what the hell are you doing with trying to eliminate some of these departments? No response.

And so no one actually knows, including the media, including experts, what Elon Musk and his group of DOGE folks are actually doing in our departments. What we do know is, they have no government experience. They have not passed major national security clearances, and they have been given complete access to the American public's personal information and our financial information.

[11:15:06]

And so that deserves answers. And that's what we're doing today in the committee. We're calling out what we think are unconstitutional actions and making sure that everyone knows what Elon Musk is doing, he's doing on behalf of himself and, in my opinion, so that he can redirect the American public's wealth into huge tax cuts for himself and his billionaire friends.

BROWN: And, again, I know that's what you believe he is doing. We don't have evidence to support that that is actually happening right now, but there are questions and concerns about that, again.

Just to follow up with you, Katie Miller, the -- a spokesperson for DOGE, has said that no one has received or viewed classified information on the DOGE team if they haven't had security clearances.

But, that aside, there are some serious questions here about the legislative branch. You heard Mike Johnson talk about it. Look, we have Article I of the Constitution, the legislative branch. He supports this effort, though. Do you think that the legislative branch right now is just sort of

ceding power to the executive branch? I mean, is it still two co-equal branch as a government right now? Because a lot of people are asking that question and wondering that right now.

GARCIA: I mean, not in Donald Trump's world.

Donald Trump has essentially elevated the richest man in the world as co-president, has given him unfettered access to programs and agencies that he has no authority over. We know that budgets and the financial resources of the American public in its investments and our agencies are something that is controlled and overseen by the Congress, the Senate, and the House, not by an unelected billionaire that is out there running around with a team that we know nothing about.

And so we are concerned. And, unfortunately, the Republican majority has decided to cede their authority and their oversight over to Elon Musk and the executive branch. And so this should be very concerning.

And this -- I think it's a joke to have a spokesperson from the administration or from DOGE say that we should just trust them. We should trust that they don't have access to sensitive information, even though they're unwilling to testify, answer questions, or actually pass any sort of clearance.

I think it's unconscionable, and we should strongly oppose that. And the American public needs to be very aware of what's happening.

BROWN: Congresswoman Robert Garcia, thank you so much for your time.

GARCIA: Thank you.

BROWN: And still ahead this hour: Just as Israel and Hamas are set to interface two of their cease-fire deal, the president-elect (sic) makes a brazen pitch, pledging the U.S. will -- quote -- "take over the Gaza Strip" and displace millions of Palestinian people.

Proponents of a two-state solution outraged, I will speak with one of them next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:22:06]

BROWN: This morning, international criticism is rolling in for President Trump's surprising plan.

The longtime real estate developer says the U.S. will -- quote -- "take over Gaza," relocate two million Palestinians, and possibly, with U.S. troops in place, transform the war-torn strip into a massive beachfront property.

His proposal rejects decades of U.S. policy in the Middle East and the wishes of the Palestinian people. The president of the Palestinian Authority said -- quote -- "We will not allow the rights of our people for which we have struggled for decades and make great sacrifices to achieve to be infringed upon."

CNN's Jeff Zeleny is at the White House.

So what are you hearing there this morning, Jeff?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, a day after the president made that really stunning statement in the East Room of the White House, his administration is scrambling to essentially explain and keep up with what he said.

We just heard Speaker Johnson the House call this a bold move. There's no doubt it's that, but there are more questions about this than anything else. How would something like this go? What effect would it have on the second phase of the cease-fire, which, of course, was the entire heart of the discussion yesterday, when President Trump welcomed Benjamin Netanyahu here to the White House?

But the administration, as we saw in the previous Trump administration, is scrambling to essentially find a policy to fit his statement from yesterday. We have been told that this is something that's been on his mind for quite some time. He sort of built up to it yesterday throughout the day, not necessarily calling for the forced removal of the Palestinians from Gaza, some 1.8 million people, but saying that it is a permanent resettlement.

That, of course, simply will not fly, but his advisers are defending this as a bold outside-the-box type of proposal. They say that nothing has worked in the Middle East before, so why not use this as a discussion point? But, of course, it flies in the face of longstanding U.S. foreign policy.

So, Pamela, we shall see how much the president actually sticks with this. We know he moves from one topic to another to another, but this certainly is causing shockwaves across the globe today -- Pamela.

BROWN: It certainly is.

Jeff Zeleny, thank you so much.

And joining us now is Democratic Congressman of New York Gregory Meeks. He's a ranking member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee and senior member of the House Financial Services Committee.

Congressman, thank you for your time.

What is your reaction to this proposal to seize control of Gaza and displace nearly two million Palestinians?

REP. GREGORY MEEKS (D-NY): Well, it's just ridiculous. It doesn't make any sense.

It's, again, the president just going off on his own. Look, to say that you're going to send American troops into Gaza and you're going to...

(CROSSTALK) BROWN: He didn't rule that out.

MEEKS: He did not rule that out.

That you're just going to systematically remove people. He didn't talk about them coming back, taking away their homeland. You're talking about the billions or trillions of dollars that would be there. You're talking about going against all international norms, where there's no one in the world, whether it be those immediately there, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, or even our European allies or anyone, that would agree to anything of this nature.

[11:25:23]

It just makes no sense. It's a violation of law and it is inhumane of people. So, it just -- I think that, again, President Trump trying to flood the market, trying to cause chaos, trying to get people's minds away from what he's not doing.

He's not reducing the cost of food. He's not making life better for the American people. He's not making homes more affordable for people, reducing the cost of rent. He's not doing any of those things that are affecting the average everyday lives of Americans, none of those things that he's doing.

He's making a lot of noise to take away from those issues because there's no policy that he's being -- put forward now that actually helps the American people and make them -- their way of life and living easier and/or better.

BROWN: I want to follow up with you on Gaza.

Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, sparked outrage last year after similar comments on developing Gaza. I want to listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JARED KUSHNER, FORMER SENIOR PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: And Gaza's waterfront property. It could be very valuable to -- if people would focus on kind of building up livelihoods. You think about all the money that's gone into this tunnel network and all the munitions, if that would have gone into education or innovation, what could have been done.

And so I think that it's a little bit of an unfortunate situation there, but I think, from Israel's perspective, I would do my best to move the people out and then clean it up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So he said that last year, and now you see President Trump sort of taking that and even going further with those remarks.

As you all know, the Biden administration spent a lot of time and effort in trying to figure out what to do with Gaza once this war ends and how to rebuild it and develop it. I mean, so what can be done in terms of that, actually making it inhabitable, is that the right word, again?

MEEKS: Yes. Let me just say this.

BROWN: Inhabitable. There you go, inhabitable.

(LAUGHTER)

MEEKS: Let me just say this.

First, what we should have been talking about, if we were talking about it serious, this whole meeting with the president of the United States and the prime minister of Israel should be talking about making sure that the cease-fire holds, that all of the hostages are released.

We have got a second phase that needs to be worked on still. The prime minister has talked about he may pull out of that. We have got to make sure that we are focused on the current scenario and situation that's on the ground to try to continue to save lives. That's what we should be serious in working and focused on, number one.

Number two, to talk about -- and I was concerned because it did seem that the president was reading something yesterday. So maybe it is what Jared had said some time back then, but it just does not make sense. And it is not something that we, as a people, as Americans, that we look at.

It does not make us safer. The fact of the matter is, when you start using that kind of talk, it probably makes us less safe. It raises and has other individuals who would love to continue to terrorize around the world and call us to all kinds of names in that regards.

And you add that on top of what the president is currently doing, for example, with the removal of 93 missions of USAID all around the world, that makes us less safe as a country, because now no one is there. And what happens when we leave those missions in those places? Places like Russia and China, they move in.

So all of this is relative and working in conjunction with one another, whether you're talking about the ridiculous statement that he's made that the United States is going to take over Gaza, whether you talk about him not funding Ukraine against Russia, whether you talk about him trying to make deals with some of the dictators around the world.

It does not make Americans safe, as well as it does not make Americans living that -- better, their quality of life, their cost of living, their rent, their food, their gas. It does not help that in any shape, form or fashion. It's a distraction.

And I want to make sure that we focus back in on what the American people really want, what they need and how we also continue to contain who we are and what our values as human beings are and how we do respect others, other than just ourselves.