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Trump To Sign EO Banning Trans Athletes From Women's Sports; Trump's Gaza Takeover Proposal Causes Worldwide Disbelief, Outrage; Pam Bondi Sworn In As U.S. Attorney General; All 67 Bodies Recovered From Potomac River. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired February 05, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:07]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. Thanks so much for joining me today on CNN NEWSROOM.

And let's get right to the news.

At this hour, President Trump is expected to sign another executive order, this one seeking to bar transgender women from participating in women's sports.

The order will likely be challenged in court, but the White House does say they expect the NCAA, the college athletics organization, to abide by Trump's new rule.

Keep in mind the simple fact, the NCAA president told Congress a month ago that there are, quote, fewer than ten trans athletes now competing in college sports, fewer than ten out of some 500,000, half a million. That is one Trump agenda item today.

But around the world, global leaders are still reeling from his shocking comments last night, saying the U.S. will, quote, take over Gaza to make it, quote, a Riviera of the Middle East. That proposal abandons decades of U.S. policy backing a two-state solution, and quite simply, would mean the forced removal of 2 million Palestinians from their homeland, which is a violation of international law.

Following all these developments, for us, as always, is CNN senior White House reporter Kevin Liptak.

Kevin, I've seen a series of Trump administration officials, Marco Rubio among them, claim the president didn't say what the president said. The president said, take it over, turn it into some sort of real estate development and move Palestinians to Jordan and Egypt.

How does the White House explain that today, or are they trying to back off the president's words?

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: I don't think they're trying to back off at all, Jim. And I think what you see officials doing today is trying to provide what they think is more context to what the president was proposing last night. You heard the White House spokeswoman, Karoline Leavitt, say in a briefing today that the president's plan would was out of the box, which is certainly true.

But I think what she's trying to emphasize is the Trump was revealing this plan in an attempt to spur what he viewed as a moribund attempt to rebuild Gaza. He hadn't seen any efforts on the parts of other players in the region to come up with a plan for the strip, and this was his attempt to sort of insert an idea into the ether in order for them to come up with the plan.

SCIUTTO: But the idea, Kevin, is to move 2 million people from their home to other countries against their will. I mean, that's not -- that's not just to sort of, you know, shoot in the dark proposal, right? I mean, that would be a violation of international law.

LIPTAK: Well, I think you're right, and I think when you hear officials talking about it, they don't necessarily acknowledge the very difficult realities of the fact that these countries that the president wants to move these people to have said that they do not want to accept them because in part they think that it could destabilize their own countries, but also because it would reference an effective end to the idea of a two-state solution.

If you take Gaza out of the -- out of the question, if you say that the Palestinians cannot return to Gaza, that effectively takes a long- standing American policy that the Palestinians should eventually be given a state off the table. And so I think there are a lot of, you know, unanswered questions about the president's plan that officials today don't necessarily have a lot of solutions to. And what I was describing before is more their attempt to put some structure around what was clearly an idea that the president had originated in the Oval Office that contained none of the normal sort of national security decision making that would typically come with a presidential proposal of the kind that the president offered.

And so, you know, I think it will be really interesting to see how over the next days and weeks, the president plans to try and bring some of these leaders around to his idea. For example, he has the Jordanian King Abdullah here at the White House next week. King Abdullah has been very explicit that he doesn't want to take any more Palestinian refugees into Jordan. But when you heard the president talk yesterday, he seems to believe that by the power of his personality, he will be able to change the king's mind.

I don't see that happening in any realistic world, but how they sort of massage all of this over the coming days will be an important thing to watch.

SCIUTTO: Does he threaten to pull U.S. aid from Jordan, right? I mean, he's -- he's certainly threatened other allies in recent days and weeks.

Kevin Liptak, thanks so much.

All right. So let's dive deeper into the president's proposal for America owning Gaza standing next to the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. This is exactly what he had to say about his vision for the future there. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The U.S. will take over the Gaza Strip, and we will do a job with it, too.

[15:05:03]

We'll own it.

I think the potential in the Gaza strip is unbelievable. We have an opportunity to do something that could be phenomenal, and I don't want to be cute. I don't want to be a wise guy. But the Riviera of the Middle East, this could be something that could be so bad -- this could be so magnificent.

Everybody I've spoken to loves the idea of the United States owning that piece of land, developing and creating thousands of jobs with something that will be magnificent.

REPORTER: Given what you've said about Gaza, did the U.S. send troops to help secure the security vacuum?

TRUMP: As far as Gaza is concerned, we'll do what is necessary. If it's necessary, we'll do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Once again. And to be clear, the forced deportation or transfer for of a civilian population is defined as a violation of international humanitarian law, a war crime, and a crime against humanity.

Jeremy Diamond reports on the shock waves in the region from this announcement.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the ruins of Gaza, Sami Ramadan (ph) is determined to clear the rubble where his home once stood, and he is determined to stay.

We will not leave. Occupation and colonization will vanish and we will stay, he says. As long as we live on this land, we will stay. We will die here. Even if in a tent I will live in the ruins of my home.

Like so many here, he swiftly rejected President Trump's proposal to permanently displace Gaza's 2 million Palestinians in favor of a U.S. takeover, and the president's rationale for doing so.

TRUMP: What's the alternative? Go where? There's no other alternative. If they had an alternative, they'd much rather not go back to Gaza and live in a beautiful alternative that's safe.

DIAMOND: But hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have decided to return to their homes. Alongside tents pitched amid the rubble, they have already begun to rebuild. They say they are undeterred by the scale of the destruction.

I don't care what Trump says or anyone else. Look, my house is completely destroyed. There's not even a roof. But here I am. I am staying.

Jordan and Egypt, the two countries Trump is pushing to accept Palestinian refugees, reiterating that Palestinians must be able to remain in Gaza amid what will be a years-long reconstruction. While Trump says his proposal is a humanitarian one, human rights experts call it a crime against humanity.

NOURA ERAKAT, HUMAN RIGHTS ATTORNEY & PROFESSOR, RUTGERS UNIVERSITY: Their removal is equivalent to their forced exile, permanent and forced exile, the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and the denial of their return, which is already a Palestinian condition.

DIAMOND: So there's no question in your mind that what President Trump is suggesting here is ethnic cleansing.

ERAKAT: There should be no question in anybody's mind. Trump is saying it himself that this is about the removal of Palestinians. He's calling Gaza a home to 2.3 million people, a home to an indigenous people, a demolition site, because the U.S. funded that demolition by air, by sea, by ground. And now, in order to complete the project, they want to remove Palestinians altogether and then to claim ownership of it.

DIAMOND: Trump's proposal is being heralded on the right wing of Israeli politics, where lawmakers have long pushed for the forcible displacement of Palestinians.

BEZALEL SMOTRICH, ISRAELI FINANCE MINISTER: Those who carried out the most horrific massacre on our land will find themselves losing their land forever. Now, with God's help, we will work to permanently bury the dangerous idea of a Palestinian state.

DIAMOND: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu calling Trump's proposal worth pursuing. But even as he stopped short of a full throated endorsement, Netanyahu's broad smile said it all he and the new U.S. president now speaking the same language.

Jeremy Diamond, CNN, Tel Aviv.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Thanks to Jeremy Diamond there.

Here to discuss now, Yara Hawari, the co-director of Al-Shabaka: The Palestinian Policy Network.

Thanks so much for joining us this afternoon.

YARA HAWARI, CO-DIRECTOR, AL-SHABAKA: THE PALESTINIAN POLICY NETWORK: Thank you for having me.

SCIUTTO: Do you consider this proposal ethnic cleansing to move the population of Gaza out of Gaza? The president suggests, to parcels of land in Jordan and Egypt that Jordan and Egypt both say they have no interest in providing. Is it ethnic cleansing?

HAWARI: Well, I don't think its important whether I consider it ethnic cleansing or not. I think it's very clear that international law considers this as ethnic cleansing. It's the forced displacement of an entire population. But I think it's really important to go beyond that, you know, beyond declaration of ethnic cleansing. It's also a desire to continue the genocide that the Israeli regime has been committing for the last 16 months.

[15:10:01]

Netanyahu wasn't able to drive the Palestinians in Gaza away after months and months of carpet bombing, and they weren't able to -- to win militarily in Gaza. And so now, Netanyahu is looking for a new way to secure that victory. And he -- and I think he sees Trump as his tool in that regard. And I think it's really important to highlight that in the face of all of this, Palestinians haven't been passive, active actors. They never have been.

SCIUTTO: You've seen today an attempt to sanitize Trump's remarks by his own advisers, Marco Rubio among them. Here's how the secretary of state described what Trump, he says, was really proposing here.

Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE: So what he's very gentle has -- very generously has offered is the ability of the United States to go in and help with debris removal, help with munitions removal, help with reconstruction, the rebuilding of homes and businesses and things of this nature so that then people can move back in. But in the meantime, they'll have to live somewhere. Now, the details of that, if it was accepted, would have to be worked out among multiple partner nations. It's a unique offer, you know, one -- that no other country in the world has stepped up and made an offer. But I think it's what people need to think about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Rubio says the people would move back in. That's not what Trump said. Trump said the U.S. would take ownership of it, develop into -- it into what he called a Riviera. That would be an international, unbelievable place. He didn't say rebuild this home for its own people.

Do you buy any of this attempt to clean up his language?

HAWARI: I mean, throughout that press conference yesterday, we heard a whole stream of contradictions from President Trump. He claimed at one point there would be no rebuilding in Gaza. And then he claimed the U.S. would lead those efforts in rebuilding. He also said that Palestinians would have to leave. And then he said that Palestinians would continue to live there and that they would create jobs not just for a specific group of people.

So it was a very confusing press conference, which I guess is the president's trademark. And I think there were moments that even Netanyahu seemed confused, especially when Trump put forward the idea of U.S. ownership over Gaza.

But I think something's really important here. I think it's really important to highlight the fact that this proposal for ethnic cleansing isn't new. It's not something that President Trump can claim ownership over. At the end of 2023, we actually saw the Biden administration floating around this idea of forced mass displacement of Palestinians to the Egyptian Sinai. And there were even talks that involved attempts to bribe the Egyptian regime to take them in.

So this is a proposal -- this proposal of U.S. sponsored ethnic cleansing of Palestinians isn't new. It's not something that that Trump has conjured up. It's actually a continuation of U.S. policy. It's a cross-partisan notion to indefinitely deprive the Palestinian people of their sovereignty and basic rights to life on their ancestral lands.

SCIUTTO: So how do -- well, specifically Jordan and Egypt, but how do Arab states respond to this? President Trump said yesterday, while we know that Jordanian and Egyptian leaders have rejected this wholesale, he thinks they'll come around. And of course, he has the leverage of USAID, which is significant to both Jordan and Egypt.

Will he try to pressure them into accepting Palestinians from Gaza? Will they bend or break to that pressure in your view?

HAWARI: I think Trump will continue to put pressure on these regimes, but I think they've been all very clear that they will not take in, Palestinian -- forcibly displaced Palestinians from Gaza or from elsewhere in Palestine. And I don't think that's necessarily because of any love for the Palestinian people. But I think because fundamentally it would cause instability within their own regimes. And so as much as Trump can push and push and push, essentially, that would lead to the destabilization of the region. So I think its very unlikely that we'll see the Arab regimes to cave in to this proposal.

SCIUTTO: Lost to some degree in the understandable shock at the president's Gaza proposal, was another comment Trump made yesterday. He said he will make an announcement in the coming four weeks regarding the possible annexation of the West Bank. And I wonder, do you see that coming here? The U.S. giving the Israeli far right something its wanted for some time to take over all of the West Bank beyond, of course, the many parcels of the West Bank. It's already taken over the last several decades via -- via settlements seen as illegal under international law.

HAWARI: Well, you're right to point that out. Israel, already de facto annexed, has annexed the West Bank. It controls over 60 percent of -- of the West Bank in what's known as area C, and it's incrementally been taking over more and more land.

[15:15:05] And the reality is, is that Israel controls the West Bank. No one goes in or out without Israel's say so. And so I think this -- this will be a gift to the Israeli far right. But the reality is that that annexation has already occurred. And I think it's -- it's likely, considering what we've seen over the last few months and certainly over the last few weeks, what the Israeli regime has been doing in the north of the West Bank, which has been to clear out entirely refugee camps to demolish entire neighborhoods.

We've seen the expansion of the genocide in Gaza to the West Bank. And so I think this is a very likely step that the -- this new administration, U.S. administration, will take.

SCIUTTO: And the president said it will.

Yara Hawari, thanks so much for joining us.

HAWARI: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: All right. Let's continue this conversation now with Eyal Hulata. He's a former Israeli national security advisor and the former head there of the National Security Council.

Thanks so much for joining.

EYAL HULATA, FORMER ISRAELI NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Thank you. Happy to be here.

SCIUTTO: What is Israel's perspective of Trump's proposal to take ownership of Gaza and force the Palestinian people out? Is that something Israel supports?

HULATA: So I think there's a lot of -- of confusion from yesterday in Israel in general, all across the political spectrum, I think everyone who saw the press conference may have also noticed that even Prime Minister Netanyahu was surprised by the way, that president Trump has -- is over this.

What is important is that President Trump gave a very broad and strong support for Israel's security needs and considerations and an understanding that whatever solution will be in Gaza, it is imperative that Hamas cannot continue to control the strip, not for the Palestinians sake, but definitely not for the security of the Israelis. So on this, I think there is broad understanding, and you can see a lot of -- of compliments and content with President Trump's messaging yesterday.

On the -- on the project itself or on the proposal itself of how to redo the Gaza strip, I think this comes as a huge surprise. I think it probably comes as a surprise also in the U.S., maybe also in the administration. This is not similar to the things that were aired the week before. President Trump has continuously spoke like what Secretary Rubio said, previous, in the show that you -- that you showed, that there is an understanding that there needs to be a wide reconstruction in Gaza, and it could be helpful if there is a way to temporarily move the population. I'm not sure this is doable, but definitely this is something worth

pursuing. But this is not what President Trump said yesterday. So I think there's a lot of confusion among the Israeli public and political figures as to, is this real? Is this something that he's been putting out there for negotiation purposes or -- or for different reasons.

SCIUTTO: If it is real, and again, it is what the president said multiple times in the White House yesterday, would it be ethnic cleansing to force the Palestinian people out of the Gaza trip -- strip?

HULATA: Well, I would be very surprised if President Trump meant there will be a forced movement and resettlement of the Palestinians out of Gaza. I don't want to put words in president mouth -- President Trump's mouth. He definitely can do this very easily on itself. But he did not say that, and neither did any of his people in the administration, nor do serious people in the Israeli establishment.

This is not something that was considered before. This is not something that Israel is pursuing. Yes, there are some extreme right political figures in Israel who view this perhaps as something that is desirable. But this is not the consensus in Israel. This is not approved by the government. This is not Prime Minister Netanyahu position.

So I think that, you know, we can talk about these implications, but I don't see any option to have any kind of forced resettlement of Palestinians anywhere around it. What I do think we need to talk about is what could be a process, presuming that the hostage deal is completely done, all of the hostages are returned. Hamas is willing to engage in a -- in a peaceful arrangement rather than continue to -- to act terror against Israel.

How could a proper reconstruction of Gaza look like? Because indeed there is a lot of damage and there are many people with no homes, and this is going to be a very long and consuming project.

SCIUTTO: The other words that came from the presidents mouth yesterday seemed to tease an impending announcement on the possible annexation of the West Bank. He was asked about it specifically. He said that in the coming weeks, we'll have some sort of news to reveal.

[15:20:02]

Did you read that as Trump saying that he's soon going to give Israel the ability to annex the West Bank?

HULATA: Well, not necessarily. I want to remind everyone that, it is the same President Trump and team who were talking extensively about their will to reengage the normalization process with Saudi Arabia. And the Saudis have extensively said that, there will be no way to continue to do this without a viable process with the Palestinians.

The Abraham Accords were signed only after Prime Minister Netanyahu has postponed his intentions for annexation. I don't expect the Saudis to -- to agree to anything less than that. I don't think this is part of a real plan at the moment. I will be very much surprised if this happens.

But I have to tell you, I was very much surprised to hear President Trump talk about his plan yesterday just as much.

SCIUTTO: That's a fair point, because I was going to ask you that next. Would annexation of the West Bank or, for instance, President Trump pushing forward with a plan to move the Palestinian people out of Gaza? Would that not only kill the chances for normalization with Saudi Arabia, in your view? But might it also lead those who already signed on to the Abraham Accords to leave those accords?

HULATA: Look, all of those countries, of course, immediately expressed their rejection --

SCIUTTO: Yeah.

HULATA: -- of any forced displacement of Palestinians from -- from Gaza. And in fact, they also said that they reject Trump's deal, which made me think that maybe this entire thing that we are watching is a part of -- of a negotiation process in which what President Trump and his team is a messaging to the region. We've been waiting for you to come around and say something constructive about how this should continue. How should the day after, look like Israel has been, carrying a lot of this?

And, you know, I mean, we need to remind ourselves how October 7th started and how all of this war started. Israel suffered, a lot during this time. And those countries have a role to play and potentially a significant role to play. And I think that maybe what is coming out of all of this is that what were seeing is -- is a negotiation move by President Trump to those countries saying, why don't you step in? Why don't you start saying what you're willing to do if you care so much about the Palestinians in Gaza and care so much about the Palestinians in the West Bank? Let's talk more candidly and constructively about the future.

Maybe this is what we're seeing. I won't be surprised if this is how this turns out.

SCIUTTO: Well, we'll see for sure.

Eyal Hulata, thanks so much for joining this evening.

HULATA: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Coming up, the immediate and dramatic actions Attorney General Pam Bondi has planned for the DOJ after she was officially sworn in today.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:25:57]

SCIUTTO: Pam Bondi reported for her first day of work as U.S. attorney general. The new head of the Justice Department was sworn in earlier today in the Oval Office by Justice Clarence Thomas.

As you can see there, on her plate, Bondi is expected to take a series of dramatic actions to investigate and undo legal moves by the Biden administration. She is also expected to order a review of cases brought against President Trump, including those undertaken by prosecutors in New York who successfully beat him. Defeat him in court.

CNN's Paula Reid has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Pam Bondi starts her first day as attorney general, the nation's top law enforcement official, amid a firestorm at the Justice Department over the recent firings of agents and prosecutors who worked on cases related to President Trump and the January 6th Capitol riot.

Now, a source familiar with the strategy tells me there aren't plans to fire thousands of agents or officials at the Justice Department. But just last week, a top Justice Department official sent out a memo demanding information about the roughly 5,000 officials who worked on the January 6th probe. And that email, the subject line was termination. So there is a reason that there is all this concern. The source acknowledges, look, there are messaging problems, and this is going to be a big thing that Bondi needs to tackle if she wants to right the ship.

Now, in addition to allaying concerns about a purge at the Justice Department, she's also going to be responsible for implementing the president's agenda when it comes to things like immigration. That's going to be a big priority for her. She will also be responsible for overseeing the team that defends his executive orders in court.

We had been told that the second time around, the second Trump administration would make sure that these executive orders were crafted in a way to be more successful in the face of court challenges unlike the first term, where he saw a lot of his policies rejected by the courts.

But so far, the civil division at the Justice Department has not had success in court defending some of these initial executive orders, like, for example, birthright citizenship. Now, she will also have the responsibility of dealing with the day to day bread and butter work at the justice department, combating violent crime, dealing with terrorism, elder fraud, really all the work of federal law enforcement. So she comes to this job with decades of experience, but nothing, nothing can truly prepare you for this job or this boss.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Thanks to Paula Reid.

One week after an American Army Black Hawk helicopter collided with an American airlines jet in mid-air, the bodies of all 67 victims have now been recovered from the Potomac River. Authorities say they're now focused on salvage operations and clearing

the remaining wreckage. The NTSB says it has been able to retrieve new radar data from the helicopter's black box, providing critical information about exactly how high the chopper was flying at the time of impact. It's been a focus of the investigation.

For more on this, CNN's Pete Muntean joins us now.

It's been a week. Pete, you've been following this very closely. Do you have any better sense now of what exactly investigators are focusing on as to what likely caused this crash?

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know what happened here, Jim. The big question is how this could possibly happen in some of the most congested airspace in the country. Really, the recovery operation is so critical to the next big and major clues here into this investigation of the collision of American Airlines Flight 5342 and that U.S. Army Black Hawk helicopter.

You can see the recovery operation going off on the distance behind me. That's the eastern shore of the perimeter of national airport here. And off in the distance are the lights and the floating cranes and the barges that came ashore with high tide here that occurred about 1:40 Eastern Time.

And we saw one of the flatbed trucks go away from that location and towards the secure location, one of the hangars here at Reagan National Airport. Well, investigators will really sort of piece back together the forensic clues that they can find from the wreckage they've picked up along the bottom of the Potomac River here. It's been in about eight feet of water.

And that is so critical. They call it the layout portion of the investigation, and they will really be able to see the scarring and the twisted metal. They will be able to glean a lot of information from that.

The latest big piece of information the NTSB has gotten is the radar data really correcting the record from something the NTSB said on Saturday. They were able to get new radar data from a different ground based radar facility here that shows that that helicopter was on the radar displays here, indicating 300 feet of altitude, even though the corridor here, the helicopter corridor here is restricted to 200 feet of altitude, not a smoking gun, though, and investigators underscore it is way too soon to draw any conclusions from that data.

Of course, it is something that so many are listening to, and even members of Congress will get a special briefing tomorrow from NTSB chair Jennifer Homendy. She'll be providing a closed door briefing to the Senate Commerce Committee, a bipartisan group of senators. Also, the FAA may be part of that briefing. So we will see just how much could change here, because this is one of those landmark accidents that will likely lead to a sea change, like we saw after the last big major crash involving a commercial airliner, the Colgan Air crash back in 2009 really changed the requirements for new pilots. SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this, Pete. Does that radar data just show

that the helicopter was too high? Or does it also show that it was out of the corridor, out of the assigned corridor, either left or right, as it were?

MUNTEAN: The NTSB hasn't given a ton of detail about it. It just essentially shows that that helicopter was at 300 feet, rounded up to the nearest hundred feet. So theoretically it could have been at 250 feet, just rounding up.

The big thing here -- and we know this from the NTSB and from the flight data recorder and the voice recorder on board American 5342 -- is that the collision occurred at 325 feet, plus or minus 25 feet. So either way you slice it, it seems like that helicopter was above the altitude restriction of that corridor. The question is, why it was above it?

SCIUTTO: Yeah. Pete Muntean, thanks so much.

And we will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:35:55]

SCIUTTO: Here's how Republican Speaker Mike Johnson reacted to President Trump's proposal that the U.S. take over, take ownership of Gaza, potentially with U.S. troops on the ground, as well as forcibly removing Palestinians from their homes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: I think this is a good development. We have to back Israel 100 percent. And so whatever form that takes, we're interested in having that discussion. But it's -- it was a surprising development, but I think it's one that we'll applaud.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: No mention of the fate of the Palestinians there.

Beyond Johnson, Republicans offered mixed reactions, some expressing skepticism. The president's actually serious, though it's unclear whether Congress would take action to stop Trump from moving forward.

To discuss, I want to bring in Democratic Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi of Illinois.

Thanks so much, Congressman, for taking the time.

REP. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI (D-IL): Hey, thank you so much, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Let's begin with president Trump's proposal for the U.S. to take over Gaza. Your colleague, Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib, she called it ethnic cleansing. Do you agree? Is that a fair description of what he's proposing?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: I think that it's a nonstarter. And I just got a news alert that he's walking back the whole proposal or this -- this whole comment, in part because I think none of the -- none of the players in the region, none of the countries that would be essential for bringing peace and normalization of ties with Israel or the establishment of Palestinian state would agree to anything like that.

SCIUTTO: He said something else yesterday, which is something we should note that far right Israelis have been pushing for, for some time, and that is the annexation of the entire West Bank, he said as he stood alongside the Israeli prime minister yesterday that the U.S. that will have an announcement of some sort in the coming four weeks.

Did you hear from the president there? And are you expecting that he might give Israel the green light to annex the West Bank, which we should note would be against international law?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: I hope not. I think that at this point, what's most important is that the ceasefire holds and that we don't have a resumption of hostilities. And so I hope that he could just allow the situation to simmer down, for aid to -- to be brought to the region and to Gaza for hostages to be released, and then hopefully for some kind of negotiation process with regard to phase two and beyond.

SCIUTTO: The Israeli prime minister yesterday said as he stood next to Trump, that there's been no greater friend of Israel ever than President Trump. As you're well aware, President Biden considered himself quite a strong friend of Israel, provided them enormous support diplomatic, military and otherwise. In the wake of October 7th, potentially with political costs here at home.

I wonder, do you think that Biden, in effect, got played by Netanyahu?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: I wouldn't say that. I think that, Biden and others have been tremendous friends of Israel. They have a lot of friends in the U.S. Congress as well. But most importantly, we need to kind -- we need to use this moment if there's a silver lining at all to get to a better place and that better place to me, from Israel's standpoint, is normalization of ties with the region, and for the Palestinian people, the establishment of a Palestinian state.

SCIUTTO: Do you think that that might be the effective pressure point here, that, first of all, and they've said this publicly, Jordan and Egypt would not accept Palestinians to be forced off their land onto their land, Jordanian and Egyptian land. But also that, normalization with Saudi Arabia does not look likely or possible without the -- a path to a two-state solution for the Palestinian people, not to mention the status of the existing Abraham Accords.

[15:40:05]

Do you think that that might be the pressure point that prevents the most egregious actions by Trump and the Israeli right wing?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: A hundred percent, yes. I think that that like that is the kind of end state, the overall mission of, to me, what, you know, Trump did well, which was starting the Abraham Accords. If we can get to that situation, I think that would be a big credit, obviously, for President Trump. But there's no way for him to get there unless, there is some establishment of some sovereignty for the Palestinian people living side by side with the Israelis.

Obviously, it has to be one that is accompanied by normalization in the region, including Saudi Arabia's recognition of Israel. But that's a big, big deal. And we have to keep our eyes on that prize.

SCIUTTO: As you've been speaking there, these are live pictures from the White House. President Trump speaking where he's going to sign another executive order, this one targeting transgender athletes in sports.

I want to ask you, Congressman, because you sit on the Oversight Committee about the role that Elon Musk, the quite powerful role Elon Musk, unelected, has taken on in this administration, including access to the entire federal payment system.

What, if anything, can Democrats do to at least explore the nature of his powers and perhaps rein them in?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: I think there are a few things that we have to do. One is what we started to do today, which is subpoena him before the Oversight Committee, or move to subpoena him before the Oversight Committee and bring him to Congress and hold him accountable.

Two, I think in the Senate, they have procedural powers that allow them to put holds on nominees to bring work to a standstill unless and until there's some movement in our direction towards better norms. And certainly, Elon Musk not having his hands on any data, whether it's at CMS or at the Treasury Department.

And then three, we have votes, okay? President Trump is going to have to rely on us Democrats for, for our votes, for -- for instance, lifting the debt ceiling, something that he cannot count on Republicans to do. We should have certain conditions in return for those votes. And so I think we have to use any and all tools in our power to prevent Elon Musk from somehow weaponizing this data, weaponizing access to this data, because it's completely unacceptable.

SCIUTTO: How about on the Senate side, do you believe your Senate colleagues, your Democratic colleagues in the Senate, are doing enough to use what limited powers they have as the minority party there to -- to stand in the way or slow down some of the steps that they take most issue with?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: I think they're starting to. I think that Senator Schatz of Hawaii, I believe, has said that he's putting a hold on all Senate confirmations for State Department nominees, but we may have to do more than just State Department nominees at this point.

My concern is that, you know, if Elon Musk somehow minds that data and uses it in some way, you know, there might be irreversible damage. And so let's be very clear eyed about what leverage we have and then use it -- use it in a way that benefits the American people.

SCIUTTO: Congressman Krishnamoorthi, we appreciate you taking the time this afternoon.

KRISHNAMOORTHI: Thank you so much, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Well, as we said, President Trump is holding event in the East Room of the White House to sign an executive order banning transgender women from women's sports. We should note, as we noted earlier, there are fewer than ten transgender athletes among half a million currently competing in college sports.

TRUMP: -- female opponent in one event by 440 pounds.

And they continue to defend themselves. Mr. Congressman, you know that, right? They continue to defend themselves.

We hope they continue onward, because I don't think we can lose a race. This was one of the big reasons that we all want, and it's one of the big reasons that we had a record, a landslide. Like they haven't seen before, very often anyway.

And who could forget last years Paris Olympics, where a male boxer stole the woman's gold medal after brutalizing his female opponent so viciously that she had to forfeit just after 46 seconds.

[15:45:01]

And she was a championship fighter.

And actually, they had two women or two people that transitioned, and both of them won gold medals and they won them very convincing.

SCIUTTO: Much of what the president said there is not true. We will continue to monitor his comments for any news.

Up next, CNN travelled to Nebraska, a deep red state where some cracks are forming in the support for Trump's immigration enforcement.

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SCIUTTO: In deep red Nebraska, you would expect many of President Trump's policies would be celebrated, but what happens when those policies threaten the state's main industry?

CNN chief national correspondent John King returns to the Cornhusker State to explore how Trump's hard line immigration stance could impact the agricultural industry there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Nebraska prairie, it's calm and quiet as the rolling farmlands wait out winter.

CROWD: This is what community looks like. KING: But even here, the new Trump agenda stirs passion and fear.

CROWD: Love over hate.

KING: Immigrant workers are critical in a state where cattle outnumber people by more than three to one. Nebraska is second to Texas in U.S. beef production, sixth in pork, and its Cornhusker State nickname celebrates its role as an agriculture giant.

JOHN HANSEN, PRESIDENT, NEBRASKA FARMERS UNION: If we have a hitch in the get-along in Nebraska, it's a big enough processing state, it's going to be felt in the food chain.

KING: By hitch in the get-along, Nebraska Farmers Union President John Hansen means a Trump immigration crackdown that rounds up undocumented workers.

HANSEN: Do we need better enforcement? I think we do. There's a constructive way to do it, and there's a less constructive way to do it. And so it remains to be seen how we proceed.

KING: This is a red state, and its Republican governor is offering support if the Trump White House puts Nebraska on its immigration crackdown list. Fear is the word you hear most from immigrants, even those with legal status.

[15:50:00]

"GIN", NEBRASKA RESIDENT: This first term was more of like, let's see if this can happen. This year is more, I'm going to do it.

They go to school of --

KING: Gin has a green card now, and is working toward citizenship, but he has family and friends who are undocumented, and he asks that we not use his full name.

"GIN": It's a scary time for my community, for people I care for, are basically, are not lucky enough like I am.

KING: Rumors of ICE activity spread fast, as did word that agents can now enter schools and churches.

"GIN": It starts off people getting scared. Basically, it starts off like, have you seen immigration? Have you seen this? And you see the fear in people's eyes, just the fact that they can't go out to the store, they can't go get groceries, or even hospitals. It's just a hard time.

KING: Immigrant advocates like Mary Choate say clients are worried now, about sending their children to school, or showing up for English classes and other services.

MARY CHOATE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR LEGAL IMMIGRATION ASSISTANCE: We really want to keep immigrants and refugees involved in the community, because they're so integral to our community. But it's been very difficult for them to be able to do that, because they fear going outside of their homes.

"G", ASYLUM SEEKER: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE).

KING: G is seeking asylum. She was a journalist back home in Honduras, targeted by the government, she says, after reports detailing corruption.

"G" (through translation): If I go back to Honduras, they will kill me.

KING: She entered the states a year ago, using a Biden administration phone app that Trump eliminated on day one.

KING: Your lawyers tell you, you're in the asylum process, and you should be OK. But with Trump as president, are you worried?

"G" (through translation): Of course, for sure.

KING: Why?

"G" (through translation): Because he tries to implement quite strict policies with immigrants in general, and I think even more with people who have just entered the country. At least with the program I entered with, there is some instability, so to speak. So, of course, that increases anxiety and concern.

With Trump's arrival, I have felt very unstable. I have a lot of anxiety, I suffer from insomnia, and I cannot stop thinking about the possibility of being deported. I cannot go back.

KING: Nebraska State Senator Kathleen Kauth is pushing a new E-Verify law that requires employers to certify their workers are legal. Simple and common sense, she says. But Kauth concedes the polarized national debate might make it harder to win over Democrats.

KATHLEEN KAUTH (R), NEBRASKA STATE SENATOR: I'm really more worried about Nebraska and focusing on, what do we need in Nebraska to understand the problem? How do we make sure that we are keeping people who are not here legally from taking jobs from people who are here?

KING: Kauth believes the state can handle any workforce disruption caused by stronger enforcement, and she is a state example of the Trump effect on the Republican Party. Any path to status or citizenship for those already here illegally must start with going home.

KAUTH: I kind of view it as a poison apple from the poison tree, whatever the legal definition is. If your first act is to break the law, you have become a criminal. And so therefore, everything after, even if it's well-intentioned, even if it's wonderful, please go back and go through the process, because we do want you here, but we need you to do it the right way. And I don't think that that should ever change.

KING: Go back is the driving theme of the new Republican immigration push, and a big reason more immigrants think it's best to stay in the shadows.

John King, CNN, Lincoln, Nebraska.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Quite a story there from John. Thanks so much.

And we'll be right back.

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[15:56:12]

SCIUTTO: Here in the U.S., egg prices are going up and appear to be driving some folks to extreme measures. Officials say thieves in Pennsylvania managed to steal some 100,000 eggs from the back of a distribution trailer. That's about 40,000 U.S. dollars worth. The price of eggs is a hot button issue right now, due in part to the resurgence of avian flu shortening supplies, leaving consumers feeling the pinch of higher prices, which of course were a big issue in the most recent election.

Thanks so much for joining me today. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.