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Rep. Pete Sessions (R-TX), Is Interviewed About Judge Blocks DOGE From Accessing Treasury Payment System; Trump: Palestinians Would Not Have A Right To Return To Gaza Under Redevelopment Proposal. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired February 10, 2025 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[11:00:59]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. You are live in the CNN newsroom. I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. And we begin this hour with President Trump's escalating trade war that could mean higher prices for you. He has announced plans for more tariffs focusing on steel and aluminum imports. And he said new reciprocal tariffs are coming as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'll be announcing probably Tuesday or Wednesday at a news conference reciprocal tariffs. And very simply, it's if they charge us, we charge them. That's all.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When is it going to impact, sir?

TRUMP: Almost immediately. But I'll be announcing the details of it, highly detailed. And it'll be great for everybody, including the other countries. But if they are charging us 130 percent and we're charging them nothing, it's not going to stay that way.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And this is coming as Trump and Elon Musk target more federal agencies for cuts. Later today, Trump's so-called buyout offer is back in court. A hearing in Boston could determine if it's even legal. I'm going to bring in CNN's Jeff Zeleny at the White House. So, Jeff, what do we know about these new tariffs and the impact they could have?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Pamela, good morning. Another week here, another threat of tariffs. Of course, we saw that last week with Mexico and Canada. The President put those on hold for a month. But these steel and aluminum tariffs, some 25 percent or so, are expected to be announced possibly later this afternoon or certainly this week. And that is primarily focusing on -- on steel.

And this is something that the President has long believed. He actually did this in his first administration as well. You heard him talking about it there on Air Force One. But, again, the threat of these reciprocal tariffs from some trading partners certainly is raising the question of what does this do for the long term relationships? Is this going to push some of our allies into potential trading deals with China? So that is one of the questions hanging over all of this.

But we know the President has long believed in this steel tariffs. We will likely see that coming first and foremost. But, Pam, as you said, this is all coming as that Elon Musk movement, the Department of Government Efficiency, is really spreading throughout the government. And there is a key hearing going to be coming up in Massachusetts in a federal courtroom about that so-called buyout program, if you will, that deferred resignation program.

Of course, the judge put that on hold last week. So that deadline is still up in the air. And all of this is coming as Vice President J.D. Vance is taking his first foreign trip as vice president. But as he was flying to Paris overnight, he had some interesting words about the separation of power and government.

Let's look at this message that he sent out. He said if a judge tried to command the attorney general and had to use her discretion as a prosecutor, that's also -- also illegal. He said judges aren't allowed to control the executive's legitimate power. So, Pamela, that hits at the heart of something very important here. Up until now, the word constitutional crisis has been thrown out a bit by Democrats. But there's no evidence that this administration has gone against any of the orders of the -- the courts that have been holding off on a lot of these administration purposes.

But if the administration would ignore a ruling by a court, that could certainly become that. So certainly interesting words there from the Vice President as the fourth week of this administration begins in a very busy way again, Pamela.

BROWN: Certainly. It has been such a busy start to this administration. Jeff Zeleny, thank you so much.

Joining us now is Republican Congressman Pete Sessions of Texas. He serves on the Oversight and Financial Services Committees. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Congressman.

REP. PETE SESSIONS (R-TX), OVERSIGHT & GOVERNMENT REFORM COMMITTEE: Good morning Pamela.

BROWN: So you just had Jeff sort of lay out what we know so far. On the tariffs in particular, some economists warned that they could raise prices for Americans. There's a new CBS poll showing a slight majority of Americans do approve of what Trump is doing. But in that same poll, Congressman, two thirds of Americans say Trump is not doing enough to lower, for example, grocery prices. This is something Trump promised he would do on day one. Should he be doing more to lower prices right now?

[11:05:03]

SESSIONS: Well, in fact, these are very important questions. The turning of the economy from where we were with big government oversight, overbearing regulation, is something that this administration, now that they are taking charge, not only with the secretary of education, but certainly the Department of -- of Transportation under Sean Duffy, is going to be achieving things that will make regulation and the shipping and track -- tracking of -- of goods and services important.

But we do have to remember that this negotiation that I believe the President is involved in with Mexico, perhaps Canada and others, is a sign to say that we have other important issues, too, including our border security.

BROWN: But on day -- he said on day one he would lower the prices. That hasn't happened. Is that disappointing to you at all?

SESSIONS: Well, I -- I -- I think that, Pamela, you would understand that things that are already in transit, things that are already on the shelves, have a baked in price. I do believe that we will reduce not just inflation, but the cost therein. And it's -- it's being touted in particular by what might be called these musketeers, Elon Musk fans who are wanting to see the government wake up and accept not just the things that it has been doing, but the overplay of government spending the Americans' dollars. So I think that, you know, I could say, yes, I have not seen that either. And we will hope to do that.

And we, in particular, we know this is with be -- beef and eggs, food and other products, poultry products, that we do want to see reduced, and I believe we will.

BROWN: All right. Let's talk about, in your words, the musketeers. As you know, Elon Musk and his staffers have essentially unfettered access to these government agencies and their systems, other than this court order from a judge on the Treasury system. Can you tell us exactly what Elon Musk is doing inside the federal government right now, what he's accessing and what he's doing with the data?

SESSIONS: The Department of OMB, which contains the -- the office for DOGE, is interested in coming through government, not sweeping through, but going through government to identify not just their payment systems, but those monies that are scheduled to go out. As you know, Congress has to make a determination by March the 14th of not only whether we fund the government, but how we're going to fund that government. And Donald Trump wants to make sure that they have a hand in saying we're going to reduce the government here and we're going to -- going to take payments that had been scheduled under prior administration out of that ongoing effort.

Why is this important? The same way that you just asked about Donald Trump since day one, he was going to reduce food prices. He was going to reduce commodities. Well, the same thing is true of reducing money that's being spent by the United States government. Elon Musk --

BROWN: Right. And just to be clear --

SESSIONS: -- through the DOGE organization, is doing this. BROWN: I understand that that is -- is what was vowed. The hope is that DOGE will cut down on access in the government, which, look, a lot of people support. But should there be any limits to what Elon Musk and his staffers access, to what they are able to do? Should there be limits?

SESSIONS: The government is not yet put together. And what Elon Musk did do -- what he did do, is to bring into these areas people who could go into the systems that are government data, government information, and print out the information that would be necessary as a request from the President of the United States. The question about whether these people, what they were going to do with the data, where it was going to fall, we are still trying to look at also. So we're gaining knowledge about this also from the Government Reform and Oversight Committee and certainly me as Chairman of Government Operations.

BROWN: So what can you tell us? Because I think a lot of Americans, I'm sure you're hearing from people, are wondering what are these people, many of them young staffers without government experience, doing with my private information? I mean, as we know, that they've accessed private information about, for example, those who have received disaster relief and the -- and the DHS system. What can you tell us about that data, what they're doing with it, what they're accessing?

[11:09:54]

SESSIONS: Yes, well, first of all, they're not interested in anybody's particular private data because within these systems, they are payment systems of where money was going out and where -- they're gaining visibility and access to that. I will tell you that I believe, strongly believe, that the request that they had, they were not receiving positive viewpoints on people, did not want to comply. So when they chose not to comply, they brought their own people in, who broke into, so to speak, these databases and provided the information we needed and the government people, computer programmers, were shocked that it could happen.

So now that we've laid out some files, now that we have an understanding, think of all that we have learned about, unnecessary, unwanted, and I think against the interest of the United States data. That is what Elon Musk and the President and I are learning. We're learning about payments that were unnecessary and not in the best interest of the American people.

BROWN: And of course, that, as you well know, would be, depending on the person looking at those payments and where they're going to, there's different opinions. But just to -- to follow up with you -- you said you emphasize access. But couldn't access still create a conflict of interest concern? As you -- as you probably know, for example, DHS, we were just talking about that, Elon Musk has contracts with DHS for his private companies. Are you certain that this data that they're having access to is for government efficiency purposes only? How do you know for certain that this ac -- this access isn't being used for other reasons, for example, to get competitor info, to help his A.I. projects, for machine learning? I mean, how do you know that for certain?

SESSIONS: Well, one other question would be informational, and that is, do you think that money that's being spent by the government, millions of dollars, unless it is for entirely a pri -- private or secret effort, should not be known by people? And I think that what they're learning --

BROWN: Well, I don't think anyone's saying that. People do want to know that. People do. I think it's a question of the process and how it's being done and the lack of transparency surrounding it.

SESSIONS: Well, let -- let me just say this. We have -- we have asked for more and -- and clearer data and information about those lines of, in particular, not just privacy, but the national security issues, and we expect to receive that. But the bottom line is, is that they need to do this to make a determination about things that will determine what we're going to spend our money on, what would be in appropriations, and how we're going to fund the government moving forward.

BROWN: And I hope when you get that information, you'll come back on the show to share, because a lot of people are wondering.

SESSIONS: I'll be glad to.

BROWN: And just -- just to follow up with you, because the conflict of interest laws require financial disclosures, for example. He's a special government employee. He would be subject to that. Would you like to see financial disclosures? Would you like to see Elon Musk testify to your committee about the work he's doing and what he's doing with that data?

SESSIONS: I think that -- that we will get to that. And it's -- it will happen, what I would say, sooner than later. We will be very pleased to not just clarify that relationship, but who is doing that and under what authority. And I think that these are all questions. If -- if we intend to have the American people see the benefit of what we're doing, it has to be above board, and that is exactly why you're asking these questions. And I owe you an answer.

BROWN: Well, I appreciate you acknowledging that. Thank you. And I'm just channeling in my job, I'm a vehicle for people's questions, and I know I'm hearing from a lot of people wondering all of this. And just to get a little clarity on what you said, so it sounds like you would be interested in bringing Elon Musk to testify to your committee. Is that right?

SESSIONS: Well, I -- I think what's important is for us to make sure we understand the relationship that exists between he and -- and what's DOGE at OMB. Is that relationship a contractual one? Is that one where he has a fiduciary responsibility? We ask outside vendors to come in and gather information all the time that then ends up in what would be the government, as opposed to that person who pulled the data.

And I don't understand enough at this point to understand is it actually Elon Musk that gets the data, or is it OMB? And I have a belief that it's OMB, that we hired outside government contractors. They came in and extracted the data, gave it to DOGE, and DOGE and OMB will professionally use that data. That's what I choose to believe, and I believe would be a business model I could support.

[11:14:57]

BROWN: And, of course, people might ask, well, why do you believe that? What's -- what's the underpinning for that belief? I'll -- I'll let you answer that, but I also, before we let you go, want to ask you about USAID because last year you voted in favor of a bill that included funding for USAID through Congress. Congress as you know has the power of the purse and now that funding has been pulled by the executive branch is that concerning to you at all?

SESSIONS: Well I think what's happened is, is that we have not made any determination in Congress about the application of that. We are going to take what is the lead from once again this data and information if we certainly knew about the millions of dollars that was being spent the way it is I don't think that a member of Congress or at least not a Republican would be in favor of that. So new information, new data, we're going to have to face up with this. And those are questions we ask also.

BROWN: But then someone might listening to that might follow up and say well didn't you vote in favor of it why didn't you know that where the money was going if you vote in favor of it. What would you say to that?

SESSIONS: Well, I would say plainly that I don't know if all the information that was in the new payments whether they were scheduled whether they had been done for three or four years. I think Republicans want to see the government work and be funded and when you put large packages together it's not just voting for USAID it's voting for a lot of other things that are important to the government it's standing and it's moving around the world. When you separate these items which is what is happening now there's a separation of -- of not just the agencies but of data and information that is now becoming available.

We -- we did not go through this with a fine-tooth comb. It does not happen in a large quote omnibus package. And we now have the latitude of seeing incrementally what's made up of this package. And these are all fair questions that you ask.

BROWN: Thank you, Congressman Pete Sessions. And we look forward to coming back on the show when you get some of that information that you are seeking in your role there for the committee. Thank you so much for your time we'll see you again soon.

SESSIONS: You bet. Yes, ma'am.

BROWN: Much more news just ahead.

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[11:21:45]

BROWN: Breaking news into CNN in a new interview, President Trump saying that Palestinians would not have a right to return to Gaza under his redevelopment plan. Meantime, Hamas says it is postponing its next hostage release alleging Israel has broken terms of the ceasefire agreement. This is notable because as we -- as we know, Kevin, Karoline Leavitt held this press conference at the White House with White House reporters last week and she said repeatedly that the President's plan is to temporarily relocate those who are in Gaza. But now the President is saying no actually that's not the case here.

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes. And President Trump when he first laid out this proposal --

BROWN: Right.

LIPTAK: Suggested he didn't think that the Palestinians would ever want to return to Gaza because in his words it was in -- it wasn't a place that anyone would be able to live just given the destruction that has occurred there over the last more than a year. Now the President in this interview is -- is saying this very explicitly. He was asked by Bret Baier the interviewer from "Fox News" whether under his plan the Palestinians would have a right to return to Gaza. And he said, no they wouldn't under his plan.

And he goes on to say that because under his proposal he would be building a place that would be better for them to live much, better housing. And he -- in his words a permanent place for them to live that they wouldn't be able to return to Gaza. And I think it's significant because as you mentioned after the President had laid out this plan we did hear from a number of administration officials including the press secretary but also the Secretary of State who tried to soften the President's plan in some ways, saying that he was proposing only a temporary dislocation of the Palestinians as Gaza was rebuilt.

Now the President is saying explicitly that this would be a permanent plan as he works to take ownership of Gaza. And I think it's significant he says in this interview that he thinks he can make a deal with the leaders of Jordan and Egypt to permanently rehouse some of these Palestinians as they leave Gaza. Of course the leaders of those countries have said that this is a non-starter. They said not only is this plan unfeasible but it's immoral for the -- for the Palestinians to be permanently evicted from their homeland in Gaza.

But I can tell you this will be a topic of discussion for the President when he meets with the king of Jordan, King Abdullah, just tomorrow here at the White House.

BROWN: All right. And it's -- it's worth just emphasizing that as we know the Palestinians have been outspoken about this saying that they -- they do not want to leave their land. Kevin Liptak, thank you so much.

[11:24:23] And still ahead this hour, why my next guest says President Trump's funding freeze is still wreaking havoc even though a judge put it on hold.

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BROWN: More than a week after a court ordered President Trump to pause his federal spending freeze, nearly two dozen states say he isn't complying. Twenty-three Democratic Attorneys General including my next guest are asking a judge to enforce his order requiring the Trump administration restore funds. They clean programs for health care, education and disaster relief are still in limbo.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JB PRITZKER (D-IL): They lied to us, we were not told that these programs were going to be cut and even when they said we're going to bring them back online, they were still lying to us about that. And it became abundantly clear that this administration is either incompetent or it's cruel. And I hate to tell you it turns out that they're both.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Joining us now Illinois Attorney General Kwame Raoul. Thank you for coming on. So the White House has repeatedly tried to sort of downplay this freeze as you know that the courts have also put -- put a hold on it. But the White House's claim federal funds are -- are still being received directly by individuals. What are you seeing in Illinois though?

[11:30:08]

KWAME RAOUL (D-IL), ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well we're seeing in certain areas --