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Interview With Senior White House Office Trade and Manufacturing Adviser Peter Navarro; DOGE to Target Climate Initiatives at Pentagon?; Trump Meets With King of Jordan. Aired 11- 11:30a ET

Aired February 11, 2025 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:28]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Good morning to you. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Pamela Brown in Washington.

And in just a few moments, we expect to see the king and crown prince of Jordan arrive there at the White House. President Trump will host a bilateral meeting in the Oval Office. Jordan is a crucial player and negotiator and the Israel-Hamas cease-fire deal, but Trump's plan to move up to two million people out of Gaza could be a big sticking point in this meeting. Jordan and other Mideast allies oppose that plan.

CNN's Alayna Treene is at the White House.

Alayna, Jordan's king requested this meeting and is expected to propose some alternatives. What do we know about that?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: That's right.

And I do want to say you're actually about to see some of the honor guard passing behind me right now as they prepare for the arrival of King Abdullah of Jordan, as well as the crown prince. He's expected to arrive here at the White House at around 11:30 this morning.

But, look, I do want to get into what you're asking about Pamela, which is what's going to be at the forefront of this conversation today. And that is, of course, what we have been hearing President Donald Trump double and triple down on in recent days, which is his idea to take over Gaza.

He has said that he wants to own it and that he wants to turn it into the Riviera of the Middle East. But part of that plan and a key part of that plan was what he said would be displacing the nearly two million Gazans from the area and moving them into Jordan and Egypt, things that we know both countries' leaders have flatly rejected.

Now, the president also was asked about how he would essentially convince these leaders to take these people in. And one person asked him if they -- if he would consider withholding aid to Jordan and Egypt in order to try and force their hand on this. Listen to what the president said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: Would you withhold aid to these countries if they don't agree to take in the Palestinians?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes, maybe. Sure. Why not? You mean if they don't agree? If they don't agree, I would conceivably withhold aid, yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TREENE: So, look, this is obviously, again, going to be a very important meeting between the two leaders and what's happening right now in the Middle East at the very front of this conversation.

One thing, though, of course, what we're watching for, what I'm hoping for really, is to see if we can maybe get some shouted questions in. We know last week, when Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was here at the White House, he had a bilateral press conference here at the White House.

That is not expected today with the king of Jordan. You're going to see his arrival, but, as of now, they're meeting and everything else that they have planned for here today is going to be closed doors. But as we know, sometimes, the White House tries to open that up. So that's one key thing we're watching for.

And just briefly, Pamela, I do also want to touch on some of the president's other comments that related to the war in the Middle East. We know that that very carefully crafted hostage and cease-fire deal is kind of facing one of its major roadblocks right now.

Hamas said yesterday that they are planning on postponing the release of more hostages. And something that the president argued, he said, if they do that he believes all hell would break loose. He did not specify exactly what that means. But it comes, again, at a time that this is a very uncertain deal, uncertain moment for what is happening on -- in the Middle East and how the president is going to be reacting to it -- Pamela.

BROWN: All right, Alayna Treene, thank you so much.

So let's bring in CNN global affairs analyst Kimberly Dozier, so we can better understand the dynamic going on here.

So we just heard President Trump float this idea of withholding aid to countries that won't take in Palestinians. But is there any amount of pressure that he can put on Jordan or even Egypt to get them to take potentially millions of people?

KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: No, this is existential for them.

And what Arab officials that I have spoken to believe is that the Israelis and certain right-wing members of the Jewish and Christian community have gotten to Trump, but that it is now their time to educate Trump that moving those Palestinians out of Gaza would be equivalent to another 1948 Nakba, the catastrophe, as the Palestinians call it.

It is something that could trigger not only all two million Palestinians joining Hamas and fighting against Israel, whereas, right now, not all Gazans support Hamas, but that it could also potentially trigger a regional third intifada, third uprising, because so many Arab and Muslim populations are furious over what they have seen in Gaza.

[11:05:08]

And if any of their leaders agree to expelling Gazans from that area, they will rise up against their own leaders, especially King Abdullah, who has so many Palestinian refugees in his country.

Some estimates say half, but it's at least two to three million out of an 11 million population. So, yes, Jordan gets aid from the U.S., but the king's got to stay on the throne to use it.

BROWN: And Trump has said he wants to bring the Middle East together, potentially stabilize, normalize, I should say, relations between Arab countries and Israel, particularly Saudi Arabia and Israel.

DOZIER: Yes.

BROWN: Does this Gaza plan jeopardize that? Because we know Saudi Arabia has been pretty outspoken about that too.

DOZIER: Absolutely. For the Saudis, this is a nonstarter, for Jordan, for anyone I have spoken to.

Trump wants to get a Peace -- Nobel Peace Prize for expanding the Abraham Accords, for bringing peace to the region. So rather than criticizing him publicly, what they have been trying to do is come up with ideas that they will present to him as, if you want to expand the Abraham Accords, here's an alternative, but the Palestinians have to stay in Gaza.

Here's what we will pay for. Here's what we will fund, but there has to be a two-state solution. And they will also gently present him with the alternative, again, privately, that current members of the Abraham Accord, Morocco, the UAE, Bahrain, might even have to pull out of the accord, as opposed to expanding it, because of this Gaza plan.

BROWN: All right, Kimberly Dozier, thank you so much.

And let's continue this conversation with Moshe Emilio Lavi. His brother-in-law Omri Miran has spent nearly 500 days as a hostage after he was abducted in the October 7 terror attacks.

Moshe, thank you so much for your time.

First off, just your reaction to President Trump's ultimatum for Hamas?

MOSHE EMILIO LAVI, BROTHER-IN-LAW OF HAMAS HOSTAGE: Thank you so much for having me this morning. Look, my reaction is that I'm not a policymaker. I'm not a strategist.

What I do know is that policies that were implemented in the past 16 months did not work to yield results until President Trump came to office and brought about an agreement for the deal that the Biden administration initiated and the Trump administration started implementing.

So I hope that the rhetoric that is out there in the public is helping us to reach a resolution to release all the hostages. And I'm certain, from discussions with the administration, with elected officials here in D.C., that they're committed to that cause, because that's the key to stability in our region.

That's the key to any plan in the postwar period, first bringing home the hostages alive.

BROWN: Of course, that is the hope.

On Saturday, I want to ask you about this, Hamas released these three hostages. Many Israelis were just struck by how gaunt the men appeared. It's up on our screen. I'm sure you have seen them. And if you haven't, please let me know.

You can see the contrast in these striking images. How urgent when you see these pictures is it to bring home the remaining hostages right now? And do you have any concern that these comments could potentially collapse the deal?

LAVI: Yes, I shared the sentiments of many Israelis and I think any person in the world who has any human spirit in them that these images are so difficult to bear.

What we as families of hostages have in mind, ever since seeing the release of Eli, Or and Ohad, is our loved ones in captivity, because they are enduring the same pain, the same suffering as they did until Saturday. And that really emphasizes the urgency, the urgency of releasing all the hostages, because every hostage is a humanitarian case.

And we have been saying that for months to elected officials in Israel, abroad, to our interview -- in interviews to the media, to communities we meet. I don't know whether the comments will or will not lead to the collapse of the deal. Perhaps they will provide the dynamics needed for the urgency of releasing all the hostages as soon as possible.

That's my hope. That's why I'm in the Capitol Hill today, to emphasize every hostage is a humanitarian case and the administration already is committed to release all of them.

BROWN: President Trump said -- quote -- "I think a lot of the hostages are dead."

[11:10:04]

The Israeli government says that eight of the remaining 33 hostages who were set to be released during the first stage of the cease-fire deal are believed to be dead. This is a tough question, but do you know if Omri is still alive?

LAVI: We do know that there are signs of life from Omri.

And then, only today, our family published after it was approved that one of the returning hostages who came back in the past few weeks provided us a sign of life. We do know many other hostages are still alive, at least half of them. The comments made by President Trump were made many weeks ago, when there was a lot of disinformation around about the faith of the hostages.

And I can assure you that his team knows very well the intelligence and all the reports that are coming out of Gaza about the fate of many of the hostages. Today, here in the Capitol Hill, we have a delegation of families of those who are in the second phase. All of them are believed to be alive.

And that's why we're meeting elected officials, in order to make sure they understand lives are at stake, and we can still save them, just like we say Keith Siegel, was released and was featured in a propaganda video with Omri in April '24, and like we saved so many lives over the past few weeks. We need to concentrate on that.

BROWN: What are your concerns if Hamas ignores President Trump's warning and the Saturday deadline passes without any hostages freed?

LAVI: We live day by day. We are concerned every day. We have been concerned for 60 months. We have been frustrated with the inaction of the international community, with the inability of pushing Hamas to the corner and ensuring the release of our loved ones, of holding accountable their sponsors.

And we hope that these comments will lead to a dynamic that will allow the release of all the hostages within the foreseeable future. We can't wait for phases to be negotiated. We really need a swift action. And I think that's what the president wants as well. And we're supporting him in that.

War is a complex thing. We know that it's the kingdom of uncertainty. We know that we may not have the happy ending for every family. But we hope that the changes in rhetoric, the changes in the dynamic in the region will push different stakeholders, including the king of Jordan, who is visiting D.C. today, the Egyptian foreign minister, who is visiting, to understand they need to put plans on the table to ensure the hostages are released and to ensure Hamas does not return to power in Gaza, because both Israelis and Gazans deserve a better situation in the region.

BROWN: All right, Moshe Lavi, thank you for coming on.

LAVI: Thank you.

BROWN: And still ahead: Some economists are sounding the alarm on a Trump trade plan that they say could ultimately cost you more money.

So I'm going to ask the president's chief trade adviser about that next, Peter Navarro. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:17:43]

BROWN: Just into CNN, one of President Trump's key allies, Steve Bannon, has pleaded guilty to defrauding voters in a private border wall scheme. Bannon pleaded guilty to one state felony count, a first- degree fraud. He's been sentenced to a three-year conditional discharge, meaning that he will not serve any time in prison, nor will he be required to repay any of his victims.

This is Bannon's second criminal conviction. He was found guilty of contempt of Congress for defying a subpoena related to the January 6 riots. He served four months in federal prison for that.

And just moments ago, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth spoke to reporters in Germany and addressed DOGE access to the Pentagon.

CNN's Natasha Bertrand joins us.

So what are you learning, Natasha?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Secretary Hegseth did speak to reporters just a few minutes ago, and he spoke a little bit about how he has been working with Elon Musk and he anticipates that Musk is going to be visiting the Pentagon in the coming weeks to do much the same that he has done at other agencies in terms of identifying different programs and positions within the Department of Defense that can be eliminated.

And Secretary Hegseth actually pointed specifically to the climate programs within the Pentagon, but, overall, he suggested that he is willing to work with Elon Musk on eliminating certain aspects of the Pentagon's budget as long as it does not affect military readiness.

Here's a little bit of what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: We have been in touch with -- I have been in touch with Elon Musk, who's a great patriot, interested in advancing the American first agenda, knows that President Trump got 77 million votes and a mandate from the American people.

And part of that is bringing actual businesslike efficiency to government, hence what DOGE is doing. We have been talking to them in partnership with them. And, as I said on social media, we welcome DOGE to the Pentagon, and I hope to welcome Elon to the Pentagon very soon and his team working in collaboration with us.

There is -- there are waste, redundancies and head counts and headquarters that need to be addressed.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BERTRAND: Now, as I said, one of the programs that Pete Hegseth identified as something that is potentially wasteful that the Pentagon focuses on are those climate change programs to study the different impacts of climate change.

The Pentagon considers that actually a pretty significant national security threat, just given the impact it can have on migration and catastrophes around the world, vulnerable populations, things like impact to military installations.

[11:20:00]

So it's unclear exactly what Pete Hegseth plans to do with those programs at the Pentagon, but he identified them as wasteful, and it's one of the things Elon Musk is bound to be looking at, Pam.

All right, Natasha Bertrand, thanks so much.

Well, President Trump says that he is making America rich again by slapping 25 percent tariffs on all steel and aluminum imports into the U.S.

Canada is America's largest source of both and is slamming this as totally unjustified. The tariffs are set to go into effect next month.

Joining us now from the White House is senior trade and manufacturing adviser to President Trump Peter Navarro.

Hi, Peter. Thanks for coming on.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: So, we're going to get to the steel and aluminum tariffs in just a second.

But I want to talk about this announcement that Trump said he would be making on reciprocal tariffs as soon as today. Which countries and goods will be targeted by that? '

PETER NAVARRO, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE OFFICE TRADE AND MANUFACTURING ADVISER: The event that President Trump is going to have talks about how all the big major trading partners that we have, have higher tariffs and/or higher non-tariff barriers. That's simply not fair for the American people.

Back when I was with the boss in the first term, 2019, he had the Reciprocal Trade Act that he wanted to get done to correct these problems. And it's just simply unfair. So, the first step that's going to happen is that we will have the secretary of commerce, Lutnick, we will have the secretary of Treasury, Bessent, Scott Bessent, we will have the U.S. trade representative, hope to be Jamieson Greer. We got to get these people confirmed.

They're going to study the landscape here, figure out what the biggest trade deficits are, and those are what's damaging to us, and then figure out which countries are responsible and whether or not they're engaged in tariffs, barriers, or what the president likes to call non- monetary barriers or non-tariff barriers.

Once that happens, then the president will be guided by that. Everything we do, Pamela, is data-driven. And the president is...

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: So no countries or goods picked out right now? It's going to be studied, and then the administration will figure out which to target based on that?

NAVARRO: Yes. Our top trading partners we run deficits with are China, Mexico, Canada, Vietnam, and on down the list.

So, look, it's a trillion-dollar deficit we have, Pamela, every year. We've got to cut that.

BROWN: So do you expect it to be with those countries, though, given the deficit? I just want to -- I just -- I want to let you make your point, but I just want to be clear here just to understand.

NAVARRO: Sure.

BROWN: Will those countries you mentioned with the trade deficits, will those be included with the reciprocal tariffs that we're hearing, or is there going to be further study? I just want to get that clarity.

NAVARRO: There's no reciprocal tariffs yet. Let's not jump the gun.

BROWN: OK.

NAVARRO: What's going to happen is, we're going to look at all of our trading partners starting with the ones which we run the biggest deficits with, find out if they're cheating the American people, and, if they are, we're going to take measures to correct that wrong.

That's what the president has promised for many years now, and we know now how quickly he moves in this second term. So that's just a preview of what he's likely to talk about today.

BROWN: OK.

NAVARRO: Reciprocal trade is the most fairest thing in the world. If they're cheating us, then that shouldn't be allowed to happen. So President Trump is going to stop that.

BROWN: And we're going to dive a little bit deeper into that in just a SEC, but you mentioned Canada. Canada has responded to the steel and aluminum tariffs by saying that they are totally unjustified. Are the tariffs allowed under the U.S.-Mexico-Canada trade deal negotiated during the first Trump administration, or does this mean that the USMCA is now over?

NAVARRO: So, in 2018, the original steel and aluminum tariffs were put in to effect under Section 232, which says that if imports are harming our national security, the president has full legal authority to do that.

And these tariffs have been in place, Pamela, to be clear. What happened, however, as the tariffs -- the Trump tariffs were in place, Joe Biden introduced all these country exemptions and product exclusions, gutted the tariffs. Capacity utilization, and steel fell perilously down to low 70s. It's down to almost 50 percent in aluminum.

And we need a golden age of steel and aluminum back. And that's what President Trump's going to do. He's perfectly within his presidential powers to do so.

BROWN: It's true about the national security exemption and going back and looking at that deal. But, as you know, Canada, as part of this deal with Trump over the 25 percent tariffs, announced the $1.3 billion to help with the border security, which it announced in December, and then this fentanyl czar, calling cartels, terrorist organizations, and so forth.

So they said they're doing that in the name of national security. So my question to you is, taking what you said, everything you laid out, there's different reasons for these tariffs. How do you reconcile President Trump's demands for action from targeted nations like reducing fentanyl and undocumented immigration, as Canada says it's doing, with the need for revenue and trade equity?

[11:25:04]

How can you have both? What is the incentive to come to the table if they're just going to be tariffed anyway, like in this case with Canada?

NAVARRO: Well, let's be clear about the aluminum and steel tariffs.

We can talk about Canada, but these steel and aluminum tariffs impact Argentina. They impact Brazil, Australia, China, Russia, Ukraine. All of all the countries, Japan, that flood us now with aluminum and/or steel are being tariffed. They're being tariffed to defend the American people and our defense industrial base, so that this country, if we have any kind of crisis, will have the ability to defend itself.

That's what all this is about. And I'm surprised in a way that Canada is protesting so loudly the tariffs that were already in place, when the problem is with country exemptions, countries like Canada basically did not keep their promises.

I mean, Canada after the Biden administration relaxed the tariffs under agreements to limit their amount, the country just blew past that, blew past that, as did many other countries. Brazil sticks us with too much slab. Japan floods us with high specialty. Australia is just killing our aluminum market.

And the president, Trump, says, no, no, we're not doing that anymore. We're going back to where we were, golden age of steel and aluminum. And that's what he's going to do.

BROWN: But you mentioned Australia.

NAVARRO: Yes.

BROWN: I mean, some of these companies, as you know, create -- like the Greensteel in Australia, for example, have products, steel, and so forth, that aren't made in the U.S., right? So I think that there's a question about how this is going to work -- how this is going to work practically.

NAVARRO: Sure.

BROWN: And I will let you respond to that.

NAVARRO: Sure.

BROWN: And I also just want to go back to that question. Why would these countries come to the table in the name of helping with national security if you're just going to go ahead and tariff them anyway? How can you achieve all of the objectives that you are laying out you're trying to achieve with these tariffs?

NAVARRO: First, on Australia, Australia is not -- Australia primarily aluminum when it comes to the United States. And the major companies in Australia are held, majority-owned by -- the largest shareholder is China.

And what they do is, they just flood our markets after Biden let them -- gave them an agreement that said don't flood our markets, you could have a reasonable amount. That's what we're dealing with. Our aluminum industry, Pamela, is on its back. It's a 50 percent capacity to utilization rate. In Australia, it's 90 percent.

And we can't afford not to have strong aluminum and steel industries. I mean, just -- I mean, in crisis, it goes into everything that we have to defend ourselves. So with respect to your question about how do you meet multiple goals, I mean, clearly the tariffs that were put in place on Canada, Mexico and China to address a fentanyl crisis were simply tariffs that say, hey, we need you to do a bunch of things to stop killing Americans.

That can be done at the same time that we can have steel and aluminum tariffs to protect our national security.

BROWN: OK.

NAVARRO: And we can have reciprocal trade discussions to deal with our trade deficit. All of these are significant crises and threats to the country.

BROWN: Let me just follow up on that, because, as you know, Americans -- there's concern amongst some Americans that this could lead to a rise in prices for them.

NAVARRO: Sure.

BROWN: The importer of a good pays the tax. Now, I know you say, you argue, and looking at your previous interviews before this interview, you said...

NAVARRO: Yes.

BROWN: ... well, Chinese companies will lower the price in response to the tariffs here. They did that in the first administration.

But in the first administration, it did not translate to all American companies paying less for tariffs. There is a J.P. Morgan Chase report that estimated the average American household cost was $600 per year. What do you say to Americans who are watching right now if the price of goods rise because of these tariffs?

NAVARRO: Well, let's remind everybody watching that, when we put on the steel and aluminum tariffs in 2018, we did not have inflation. We had price stability and we had prosperity.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Prices did go up on some goods, though. They did go up on some goods, according to what I see right now from Goldman Sachs, bedding, furniture, laundry equipment.

(CROSSTALK)

NAVARRO: As far as I'm concerned, anything that comes out of Goldman Sachs or some of these think tanks, they have an agenda. I don't believe them.

But let me just quickly tell you, when tariffs come, you have the price adjustment by the exporters. They have to lower their prices in order to hold on to their market share. You have the currency adjustments that take place as part of the market adjustment, but also through currency manipulation by the governments.

[11:30:00]