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Trump Stands by Gaza Takeover Plan; DOGE Holds Hearing on "The War on Waste"; Hegseth Rules Out NATO Membership for Ukraine; Trump Admin. Faces New Lawsuit. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired February 12, 2025 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Maryland Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen, appreciate your time, sir. Thanks so much.

SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD), APPROPRIATIONS AND BUDGET COMMITTEES: Good to be with you, Phil. Thanks.

MATTINGLY: Well, right now we've been talking about it. The House DOGE subcommittee holding that hearing on what they're calling the quote, "war on waste." We're following it for you live. We're back in a moment.

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MATTINGLY: I want to go straight back to Capitol Hill. You see it there, the DOGE subcommittee continuing that hearing we've been keeping an eye on, all coming as Elon Musk's team is claiming they are finding, quote, "fraud" in the government. Now, for real.

I want to go to CNN's Lauren Fox, not Chris Van Hollen. Lauren, this hearing, there was a lot of talk before the administration came in that maybe there's some bipartisan elements here of this DOGE effort. What are we seeing so far?

[10:35:00]

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, this is really a hearing about cutting down on improper payments in the government, whether that deals with welfare payments, whether that deals with SNAP payments.

And on its face, Republicans and Democrats would typically be united on the issue of making sure that taxpayer dollars aren't going to people who don't qualify for the programs that they're applying for. But in this case, obviously there is an injection of politics because Democrats are arguing already in this hearing, you can't ignore what is happening outside of that room.

We should note Marjorie Taylor Greene is the chairwoman of this subcommittee and we are already hearing from Democrats that, yes, this should be bipartisan, but let's look at what Elon Musk is doing outside of the scope of just cutting back on waste, fraud, and abuse. He is trying to unilaterally strike back on some of these, you know, government agencies that have existed by congressional approval for decades.

And so, I think that that is really the tone and tenor so far. They've really just been getting through their opening statements. They're hearing from the witnesses and their opening remarks right now. But I thought that this was really striking from Gerry Connolly. He argued a wrecking crew, a wrecking crane, a wrecking ball is not going to do it and we are not going to support that approach. Gerry Connolly being, of course, a Democrat who sits on this committee.

But obviously, Phil, there'll be a lot more updates as this goes on and as Democrats get more opportunities to weigh in the hours ahead.

MATTINGLY: Lauren Fox for us live from the halls of looks like a Senate building, I think, it's one of them. It's one of them. Trying to find lawmakers. As always, appreciate the hustle. Thank you.

Well, still to come, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth making his first appearance at NATO and ruling out membership for Ukraine. I'm joined by former U.S. Ambassador to NATO on what this means in the war against Russia, next.

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[10:40:00]

MATTINGLY: New this morning, Russia has launched another round of deadly strikes on Ukraine's capital. The early morning drone and missile attacks killed at least one person and wounded four others, including a child. Ukraine's president says it shows Russia is not preparing for peace.

Now, that, as the defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, is holding his first in-person meeting with his European counterparts. Hegseth is pushing leaders of NATO and the European Union to accept a larger role in supporting Ukraine, including funding and weapons production. And he's ruling out, explicitly, Ukraine's future membership in the NATO military alliance.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: The United States does not believe that NATO membership for Ukraine is a realistic outcome of a negotiated settlement. Instead, any security guarantee must be backed by capable European and non-European troops. To be clear, as part of any security guarantee, there will not be U.S. troops deployed to Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Joining me now is Kurt Volker, a former U.S. ambassador to NATO, also served as a special representative for Ukraine negotiations during the first Trump term. Mr. Ambassador, thanks so much for joining us. What was so striking about what we heard from the secretary there is a lot of what he was saying was kind of always understood to be the reality, but officials never said it out loud and certainly not as directly as we just heard it. What did you make of that?

KURT VOLKER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO NATO, FORMER TRUMP SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE FOR UKRAINE NEGOTIATIONS AND DISTINGUISHED FELLOW, CENTER FOR EUROPEAN POLICY ANALYSIS: Yes, that's exactly what I took away as well, that nothing in what he said is actually all that new, it was just expressed in a very direct and harsh way. I would also point out that NATO membership should not be part of a negotiated settlement. It's none of Russia's business. We should not be talking with Russia about Ukraine's future NATO membership. That's for Ukraine and NATO allies to decide later.

What I think the administration is setting out there, and to be clear, this was a prepared speech by Hegseth, so it was obviously written in advance and cleared with the White House. It's three things. It is a ceasefire immediately, it is deterring future Russian attacks, and then it is rebalancing the burden sharing. So, Europe is doing more. That's what we've been hearing consistently from the Trump administration. I didn't really pick up much new in what Hegseth was saying there.

MATTINGLY: Yes, you make a couple really good points. One, what he said is exactly what the president and his team have made clear throughout the campaign, we kind of knew this was their position going in, but the second part was what -- you picked up what I was -- when I read the comments and then I watched them and I realized, OK, he's reading exactly from the prepared remarks, to your point, wasn't doing that unilaterally, wasn't doing it off the cuff. What message are they trying to send in terms of the efforts to kick some type of negotiation into gear in the near term?

VOLKER: Right. I think it is, first off, immediate ceasefires, stop the fighting, stop the carnage. You hear that from President Trump all the time. And then, secondly, that Europe needs to take the lead in future security for Ukraine in order to deter new Russian attacks, which we should anticipate are going to happen. If there is a ceasefire, just like with the Minsk agreements before, Putin is going to keep planning his attacks. So, we do have to have future security for Ukraine and the U.S. is saying, we want the Europeans to take the lead.

MATTINGLY: Their capacity to do that, again, this has long been a discussion, it's long been an issue for President Trump when it comes to Europe's ability to provide to the level that the United States does. When you talk to European officials, your contacts over there, what do they think about their ability to fill any gaps?

[10:45:00]

VOLKER: Yes, it's -- they don't think they have the ability now. They know that they need to spend more on defense and build up that capability, and they find it very difficult to imagine doing that. But that's why I think President Trump is pushing it, because it is something ultimately that they need to do. Europe has to take more responsibility for Europe's security.

MATTINGLY: What we've seen in these opening weeks, you know, I think we're all trying to read tea leaves, we're trying to figure out where is Keith Kellogg? Where's Steve Witkoff? Obviously, there was the prisoner release and forthcoming exchange last night. Do you see kind of a clear strategic pathway from this administration? And does it differ from maybe what we saw at various states in the first term?

VOLKER: Well, I do actually. The first term was about pulling America back. So, 2017, after two terms of President Obama and two terms of President Bush before that America first meant pulling America back and focusing on things at home.

In this second term of President Trump, America first seems to be rebuilding American strength. It is taking a very assertive role in the world, whether it is with respect to ending the war in Ukraine, so that's, you know, stopping Putin there, ending the war in the Middle East and putting pressure on Hamas and Iran, whether it is claiming that we need to do more about Panama Canal and Greenland, it is a very assertive and America first strength stance coming from a second term.

MATTINGLY: Last night, the president, we were talking about the prisoner release, alluded to the fact that this would be helpful in whatever forthcoming talks there are related to the Ukraine conflict. Dmitry Peskov didn't quite go that far when he was asked about it by reporters said, look, it's -- showing good faith and relationships is a good thing. Didn't want to say anything about what it meant for eventual negotiations.

Is the president right? Is this kind of a first step of a lengthier process that could deal with Ukraine?

VOLKER: Yes, I think so. I think so. Remember the past hostage releases from Russia, they were all trades. Some of them for some notorious people like Viktor Bout, the arms dealer. In this one, I think President Putin is trying to send a signal to President Trump, hey, I'm willing to deal. I can do things here. He sees this ongoing discussion between President Zelenskyy and Trump about, you know, access for minerals, about continued supply of arms, security for Ukraine, security assurances, and Putin is feeling a little bit left out of this.

Remember in his first day in office President Trump even tweeted about adding more sanctions to Russia if they don't end the war. So, Putin is trying to get himself in the bargaining here and releasing this American prisoner is one way he's trying to show some goodwill and get Trump's attention.

MATTINGLY: What do you think the next steps are?

VOLKER: Sorry?

MATTINGLY: The next steps on this issue specifically, like on Ukraine for this administration, what do you expect to see?

VOLKER: Yes, I think we're going to have the Munich Security Conference this weekend where you'll have J. D. Vance reiterating this message about Europe needing to step up and do more and take responsibility for Europe's security. You have Keith Kellogg, the president's special envoy, will be going to Ukraine and other European capitals, and he's going to be listening. He's not going to be there projecting this is what the plan is, he's going to be listening to what are the Europeans prepared to do to help secure Ukraine for the future, what is Ukraine prepared to do to accept a ceasefire and a peace agreement? Where does this have to land? And then, he'll come back and report to President Trump, and I think President Trump will be the one who will be driving this with phone calls to President Putin, phone calls to Zelenskyy.

And I would expect, eventually after there's a ceasefire, that he would want to meet with Putin and then nail down that this is a permanent peace.

MATTINGLY: Yes. Vance expected to meet on the sidelines with Zelenskyy in Munich. Very critical days ahead on everything. Ambassador Kurt Volker, thanks for walking us through it. Appreciate it.

VOLKER: Pleasure. Thank you.

MATTINGLY: And we are following breaking news. The Trump White House facing yet another lawsuit. That's next.

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[10:50:00]

MATTINGLY: The breaking news, top government watchdogs are suing the Trump administration, claiming the president shouldn't have been able to fire them. CNN Senior Crime and Justice Reporter Katelyn Polantz, joins me now. Katelyn, they have a point. What does the lawsuit say?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, these are the inspectors general of eight of the different government agencies. There were actually 19 IGs that have been fired by Donald Trump since he took office, eight of them are bringing this lawsuit, put on the pile of lawsuits against Trump and his early actions as president.

But they're saying they all got this e-mail from the White House on January 24th, Friday, four days into the administration, two lines saying on behalf of President Donald J. Trump, due to changing priorities, you're terminated effective immediately. Thank you for your service. Goodbye.

That is not what the law says, at least that's what they allege in this suit. They want their jobs back. They're saying that Trump was supposed to, under the law, notify Congress 30 days in advance before getting rid of these people, if he wanted to, and also that they needed to be given a substantive case specific rationale for being terminated.

Now, this is just one of those suits to really pay attention to. It's about Trump's power versus Congress' power and checks and balances there. But this is also about waste, fraud, and abuse. That's what these people do. They look at the agencies, they write reports. [10:55:00]

One example of one of these people fired who is now suing Phyllis Fong. She was the I.G. at the Agriculture Department for 22 years. She did more than 7,000 reports, found what the lawsuit says was $19 billion worth of fraud or waste at that agency and have saved taxpayers that amount of money. She got one of those e-mails on Friday and then the following Monday showed up to work and then had to leave the building when they took her laptop and her cell phone.

So, we'll see what happens in court. But this really is a another one of those startling lawsuits to see how exactly this played out.

MATTINGLY: The Trump advisers have been unapologetic. They want their people in, it doesn't matter where it is across the government. Have we heard anything from them since the suit has been fired?

POLANTZ: We haven't. Not since the lawsuit has been fired. At least I haven't seen anything yet exactly. But we are seeing the Justice Department oppose all of these lawsuits across the board. They're going to go through lots of things in court coming up.

MATTINGLY: Stephen Miller told our Jake Tapper they thought the notification requirements were unconstitutional. They moved on them. Now, we're going to find out what the actual ruling is. Katelyn Polantz, as always, thanks so much.

Well, coming up, we're minutes away from the Senate vote to confirm Tulsi Gabbard as the nation's top intelligence official. Will she have the votes? We'll watch.

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