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Trump, Putin Discuss Ukraine's Future; NATO Leaders: Ukraine Must be Included in Any Talks; Judge Let's Trump's Buyout Plan Move Forward for Now; Gabbard Sworn in as Director of National Intelligence; Indian Prime Minister Modi in U.S. to Talk Tariffs, Trade, Immigration. Aired 4-4:30a ET

Aired February 13, 2025 - 04:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[04:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: U.S. President Donald Trump appears to be making a play for peace in Ukraine, although his comments indicate Kyiv may not have a major role.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There can be no negotiation about Ukraine without Ukraine.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A big win for the Trump administration as it struggles to defend the president's executive orders and new policies in court.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How soon do you want the Department of Education to be closed?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Oh, I'd like it to be closed immediately.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We've heard from people who are taking Ozempic and similar medicines that they not only reduce the amount of food that they want to eat, but also, for some people, they can reduce the amount of alcohol that they feel like drinking.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Live from London, this is CNN NEWSROOM with Max Foster and Christina Macfarlane.

FOSTER: Hello and a warm welcome to our viewers joining us from the U.S. and around the world. I'm Max Foster.

MACFARLANE: And I'm Christina Macfarlane. It's Thursday, February 13th, 9 a.m. here in London, 10 a.m. in Brussels, Belgium, where NATO defense ministers are meeting again today with Ukraine in focus.

FOSTER: And they're emphasizing that there can be no negotiations to end the war without including Ukraine. This follows comments from U.S. President Donald Trump, suggesting that he and Russian President Vladimir Putin would meet without Ukraine's President, Vladimir Zelenskyy. Here's some of what the NATO defense ministers had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK RUTTE, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: We all want peace in Ukraine rather sooner than later. We all want Ukraine to be in the best possible position when those talks start, to make sure that they can be concluded successfully.

JOHN HEALEY, U.K. DEFENSE SECRETARY: There can be no negotiation about Ukraine without Ukraine. And Ukraine's voice must be at the heart of any talks.

PAL JONSON, SWEDISH DEFENSE MINISTER: I don't foresee the NATO membership as such being off the table for Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: Well, on Wednesday, President Trump spoke by phone for 90 minutes with Vladimir Putin. Mr. Trump says the Russian president wants the war to end and predicted a ceasefire in the not-too-distant future. Social media posts praised the Russian leader for agreeing with Trump's common-sense approach to ending the fighting.

And when asked about the president's approach, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: There is no betrayal there. There is a recognition that the whole world and the United States is invested and interested in peace, a negotiated peace. As President Trump has said, stopping the killing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: President Trump also spoke by phone with Ukrainian leader Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who he seemed to suggest would have to make some concessions if he wants peace. Let's bring in CNN's Clare Sebastian live in Brussels. Just take us through the concessions and how that's going down there.

CLARE SEBASTIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Max, I think what we've got here is a very fine line that these NATO ministers are having to tread, right? Because on the one hand, they sat here yesterday and watched as Washington, via Pete Hegseth, seemed to offer up some of Moscow's key demands in this conflict, no NATO membership for Ukraine as part of a peace settlement, although, of course, he didn't put a timeframe on that, and ruling out Ukraine's ability to return to its pre-2014 borders, so suggesting that Moscow would get to keep at the very least Crimea, possibly also some of the Donbas.

That is not fully what Moscow is demanding, but it does suggest territorial concessions by Ukraine. And then watching later in the day as President Trump refused to say that he saw Ukraine as an equal partner in peace talks. So now today -- well, yesterday, they were very tight-lipped. All the leaders that I spoke to really refused to engage in questions about this rhetoric coming out of the Trump administration. Today, we're seeing a little bit more pushback. You played it there with the ministers coming out and saying Ukraine has to be involved here.

And interestingly, we heard a comment this morning from the German defense minister, Boris Pistorius. Germany, by the way, the second biggest donor after the U.S. in dollar terms to Ukraine, who basically said that it was regrettable that the U.S. came out with these statements about NATO, about Ukraine's borders, before the negotiations had started, that perhaps it would have been better to do things in a different order. That is the first real criticism that we've seen of the U.S. approach, because, of course, no one wants to risk their bilateral ties with the U.S.

Number one, we're seeing already, of course, trade tensions mounting with impending tariffs, and number two, they do not want to risk the appearance of unity in NATO, because, of course, it's not just Moscow, as several ministers have pointed out to me, that is watching this. It's the likes of North Korea, Iran, and China, so it's a critical moment for this alliance.

[04:05:00]

They are facing the sort of upending of their policies on Ukraine from the Trump administration, and, of course, a critical point in the war itself, where Russia continues to gain ground, as the Trump administration accelerates this path to peace talks.

They are also, of course, facing mounting pressure to increase their own defense spending and take greater control over their own security.

MACFARLANE: And on that point, Clare, there's obviously a clear expectation from the U.S. that European nations will be expected to police any ceasefire, to provide aid, and security guarantees. What is the will and the ability for Europe to do that at this point?

SEBASTIAN: So I think the will and the ability are two different things at this point. The will is there. I have yet to find a minister or an official here who won't tell you that they don't agree with the Trump administration that more needs to be sent, more needs to be spent, rather, on defense by European countries.

We've got a situation now where about two-thirds of NATO has met the 2 percent target, but it's increasingly accepted that that 2 percent target is outdated and that they need to spend much more, perhaps not the 5 percent that the U.S. is looking for, but certainly the secretary-general of NATO, Mark Rutte, suggested yesterday, north of 3 percent. He said, we have to do this now. Anyone who's not on 2 percent, he said, needs to get there by summer.

So there's a level of urgency. They are aware that they are, as the secretary-general put it, not in a time of war, but also not in a time of peace. Whether they can do it is a different question. These are many different countries with many different sort of political agendas, and they need to not only ramp up spending, but they need to ramp up production. So I think that's what discussions today will really focus is on how they do that. And as you suggest as well, the big question is going to be on security guarantees for Ukraine, what it looks like, and how, without the U.S. being involved, do you make it enough of a deterrent that Moscow takes notice?

FOSTER: OK, Clare Sebastian in Brussels, thank you. We'll be back with you as you get more developments there.

Now, Democratic U.S. Senator Chris Coons is a member of the Foreign Relations Committee. He says he welcomes the push for peace in Ukraine, but any negotiations must involve that country's president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHRIS COONS (D-DE): My hope is that President Trump will not simply abandon our partners in Ukraine. I am optimistic that, in the end, senior leaders in this administration will persuade him that peace through strength, which is something President Trump often talks about, requires strength, not concessions, and that if our European partners and allies who have stood alongside us in arming Ukraine, in funding Ukraine and supporting Ukraine, if we continue to do so, Putin will accept that he cannot overrun all of Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: Well, according to multiple sources, mass firings have begun at U.S. federal agencies as part of the Trump administration's plans to shrink the federal workforce. Until now, employees across all agencies had only been placed on administrative leave.

FOSTER: People familiar with the matter say dozens of probationary employees at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau have already received termination notices. President Trump is also going after the Department of Education, but it's unclear if he can close an entire department without going through Congress.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How soon do you want the Department of Education to be closed?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Oh, I'd like it to be closed immediately. Look, the Department of Education's a big con job. We're ranked --

So they rank the top 40 countries in the world. We're ranked number 40th. But we're ranked number one in one department, costs per pupil.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: Meanwhile, a judge has given President Trump the green light to go ahead with so-called buy-out offers. CNN's Paula Reid picks up the story. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: A big win for the Trump administration as it struggles to defend the president's executive orders and new policies in court. A Clinton-appointed federal judge in Boston has ruled that the administration can proceed with its federal buy-out plan for workers, so-called deferred resignation plan.

Now, unions had brought a challenge on behalf of their members for this plan, arguing that two weeks' notice for workers to accept was just not enough time to make this kind of life-changing decision.

They also challenged whether the administration actually has the authority to engage in this kind of offer and whether employees would actually be paid through September as promised.

But the judge has ruled that the unions don't have what is called standing. This is a technicality. They don't have the proper right to bring this lawsuit and that claims of this kind should be brought through a different venue.

So it is likely that this will be appealed. Also likely that the unions might just revise their lawsuit, perhaps have an individual member bring it, and possibly in a different jurisdiction.

[04:10:00]

But this is, again, this is really one of the first significant wins for the Trump administration as it has had many of its policies challenged. And almost all of those challenges have resulted in the policy either being paused or blocked, which has resulted in the president and Elon Musk attacking members of the judiciary. So it will be interesting to see, now that they have had this one significant win, if they change their tune.

Paula Reid, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACFARLANE: A U.S. judge has ruled that the head of the federal ethics watchdog agency who was fired by President Trump last week can stay on in the job for now.

FOSTER: Hampton Dellinger was granted a request to pause his termination whilst he pursues further legal action. Meanwhile, eight inspectors general are also suing to get their jobs back after they were fired from their government watchdog posts.

MACFARLANE: They say President Trump should not have been able to terminate them without first notifying Congress and they accuse the White House of ignoring regulations meant to protect them from political interference and retribution.

FOSTER: A major win for President Trump with one of his most controversial cabinet picks now confirmed by the Senate. Tulsi Gabbard was sworn in as a new director of national intelligence on Wednesday.

MACFARLANE: And in the coming hours, the Senate is expected to vote on Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s nomination for secretary of health and human services. CNN's Manu Raju has more.

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MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Donald Trump is seeing Republicans on Capitol Hill fall in line, even behind his most controversial nominees, one of them Tulsi Gabbard, to be the next director of national intelligence. She was confirmed on a 52 to 48 vote. That was because 52 out of 53 Republicans voted for her confirmation.

One Republican voted no. That is a former Senate Republican leader, Mitch McConnell, who said that the Senate should withhold its consent because of his concerns over some of her past views, citing in particular her past support to see Edward Snowden's charges drop. He, of course, is the infamous leaker of classified data.

And also, he raised concerns about her views about Russia. Russia, she had sympathetic stances towards Russia. She has sort of watered those down as she went through this confirmation process.

But nevertheless, McConnell putting out a statement saying in part, that the nation should not have to worry that the intelligence assessments the president receives are tainted by a director of national intelligence with a history of alarming lapses in judgment. He went on to call her a, quote, unnecessary risk.

But that was not the view of most Republicans. In fact, a lot of them ultimately fell in line because they were reassured by her statements both during the confirmation hearing and behind the scenes when they met one-on-one. So that is one major nominee that the fight is now over. She is now the next director of national intelligence.

But there is another big one that is coming down the pike and a vote that will happen in the Senate on Thursday. That is the vote to confirm Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to be the next secretary of Health and Human Services. And at the moment, he looks like he is assured that position because Republicans, again, are falling in line despite several of them raising concerns about a number of his past positions like his vaccine skepticism and trying to link vaccine usage to childhood autism.

During his confirmation hearings, he hedged when asked about whether there was any sort of link or if he agreed with a science saying there is no link. But he, too, was able to reassure Republican skeptics that he would not do anything to undermine the United States' promotion of vaccines and that he would not discourage Americans from taking vaccines.

Those kind of commitments were enough to win over Senator Lisa Murkowski. Another swing vote in the United States Senate, Senator Susan Collins and Senator Bill Cassidy. They are all yes votes. But the one person we'll be watching during this Thursday confirmation vote, Mitch McConnell. Again, he has not said how he would vote. But if he is a no, that will not be enough to stop this nomination.

In fact, it would probably be confirmed on a 52-48 vote, just like Tulsi Gabbard, mostly along party lines. As Republicans fall in line, Democrats are opposed with so few swing votes in the Senate, meaning Donald Trump will get his cabinet in place.

Manu Raju, CNN, Capitol Hill.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER: Now, as doubts deepen about the future of the Gaza ceasefire deal, Hamas says it's keen on moving ahead with the next round of hostage release, which is set for Saturday.

MACFARLANE: The militant group had threatened to postpone the release, accusing Israel of violating the ceasefire deal. But Israel warned that the conflict would resume if there was any delay. Israeli military vehicles were seen near Gaza on Wednesday, and the country's defense minister issued this ultimatum.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ISRAEL KATZ, ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTER (through translator): If Hamas stops the hostage release, then there is no ceasefire agreement, and there is war. The new Gaza war will be of another intensity from the one before the ceasefire and will not end without the defeat of Hamas and the release of all the hostages.

[04:15:03]

And it will also allow the realization of Trump's vision for Gaza.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Meanwhile, negotiators are working to keep the ceasefire deal on track.

MACFARLANE: Hamas says its delegation has arrived in Cairo for talks with Egyptian officials. An Egyptian government-linked news outlet said both Egypt and Qatar are stepping up efforts to save the deal between Israel and Hamas.

FOSTER: And there are reports that the president of the UAE told U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio that the two-state solution is the key to peace. But some Palestinians in Gaza say they're tired of the war and the suffering.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Israel must release the prisoners and abide by the agreements, and Hamas must also adhere to the agreements for the sake of the people. The people are in pain and sick. The people are completely exhausted. There is no country in the world that is protecting these people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: Well, the Red Cross is also urging Israel and Hamas to stick to the ceasefire deal. They say it's imperative for preserving human life and dignity and has helped save countless lives of others in the last three weeks.

FOSTER: Emergency operations underway after a deadly blast at a shopping mall in central Taiwan. Footage shot by witnesses showing window panels and other debris falling there onto the streets whilst cars sit in traffic. This happened in the city of Taichung.

MACFARLANE: At least five people were killed in what's thought to be a gas explosion inside a department store and at least seven others are injured. The Taichung Fire Department shared this video from the 12th floor of the building where construction was underway on a food court. And you can really see the twisted metal hanging from the ceiling and covering the floor there.

FOSTER: Merger talks that would have created the world's largest carmaker have been called off. Honda and Nissan announced their talks in December along with their junior partner Mitsubishi. But Nissan says the companies have now agreed to terminate the deal.

The two larger automakers will still collaborate on some projects including electric vehicles. The companies were hoping the merger would give them more resources to face growing competition from China.

Still ahead, Elon Musk defends his efforts with DOGE to slash government agencies and the federal workforce.

We'll have his critical comments from the World Government Summit in Dubai.

MACFARLANE: Plus, what the Indian Prime Minister is hoping to achieve during his White House visit with President Trump today. Details on that just ahead.

FOSTER: And first it was Illinois, now it's New York. Still ahead, why the Trump administration is suing yet another U.S. state.

[04:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELON MUSK, DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY: With the new administration, there's less interest in interfering with the affairs of other countries. I think we should, in general, leave other countries to their own business. Basically, America should mind its own business, you know, rather than push for regime change all over the place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: Elon Musk, addressing global leaders at the World Government Summit in Dubai a short time ago, said the Trump administration is looking to reduce America's influence on the world stage.

FOSTER: Yes, the tech billionaire who's leading Donald Trump's Department of Government Efficiency appeared virtually for the third and final day of that summit. Musk defended his efforts with DOGE to slash the federal workforce, and he was critical of a sheer number of U.S. government agencies.

Donald Trump about to fire yet another shot in his tariff battle with trade partners whilst fulfilling a campaign promise.

MACFARLANE: He's expected to impose reciprocal tariffs on every country that puts its own levies on U.S. imports, and that announcement is expected later today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I may do it later on, or I may do it tomorrow morning, but we'll be signing reciprocal tariffs. The world has taken advantage of the United States for many years. They've charged us massive tariffs, and we haven't charged them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Well, this latest threat as -- well, it comes the same week as the Trump administration announced 25 percent tariffs on all steel and aluminum imports starting a month from now. These actions are raising fears of a wider trade war that could make inflation worse.

President Trump's latest round of tariffs comes as Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi is set to visit the White House today.

MACFARLANE: The Trump administration has complained that India's high tariffs lock out U.S. imports. Modi's visit comes a week after Indian migrants were seen in shackles as they were deported from the U.S. More on that now from CNN's Kristie Lu Stout.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KRISTIE LU STOUT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi is in the United States and will soon meet with President Donald Trump, a man he has called a, quote, true friend. So observers are looking out to see whether their true friendship can help overcome concerns about trade and immigration. And to see whether, as reported, Modi will meet with Trump's billionaire advisor, Elon Musk.

So far, India has escaped the threat of Trump tariffs, and Modi wants to keep it that way. Now, sources tell Reuters that Modi plans to meet Trump in Washington during his two-day visit with tariff concessions in hand, concessions that could boost U.S. exports to India and avert a potential trade war. In the past, Trump has called India, quote, very big abuser on trade. But Modi is keeping the tone positive. On Wednesday, he took to social media to post this, quote, Landed in Washington, D.C., a short while ago, looking forward to meeting POTUS, Donald Trump, and building upon the India-USA comprehensive global strategic partnership. Our nations will keep working closely for the benefit of our people and for a better future for our planet, unquote.

[04:25:04]

But it's not clear what Modi can offer in terms of migration. Now, the number of Indian nationals entering the U.S. illegally has surged dramatically in the last few years. That's according to U.S. government data. And last week, the U.S. Border Patrol chief posted this video of around 100 Indian migrants being deported in shackles. Now, several deportees are seen shuffling up a ramp with chains on their wrists and ankles.

Now, this video sparked outrage and angry protests across India, with some protesters burning an effigy of President Trump.

Now, during his trip to the U.S., Modi reportedly is also set to meet Elon Musk, the world's richest man and quote, special U.S. government employee. Sources tell Reuters that they're likely to discuss Starlink. That's Musk's satellite broadband service and plans to launch it in India. It's not clear when Tesla's future in India will also be up for discussion.

Now, there is a lot at stake in the greater U.S.-India relationship. India is a strategic partner of the United States. It's a member of the Quad Alliance and a counter to China.

It remains to be seen how Modi and Trump will capitalize on their friendship to reconcile their differences during this visit.

Kristie Lu Stout, CNN, Hong Kong.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACFARLANE: All right, still ahead, why a highly respected news agency has been blocked once again from attending a media event at the White House.