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Scores of New Firings at Federal Agencies as Trump, Musk Reshape Government; New York Times Reports, Elon Musk's Team Involved in At Least 19 Federal Agencies; Pivotal Morning for USAID Amid Efforts to Dismantle Aid Agency. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired February 13, 2025 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. You are live in the CNN Newsroom. I'm Pamela Brown in Washington.

And we are following multiple breaking news stories this morning. Right now, scores of employees are being fired across federal agencies, the Department of Education and the Small Business Administration among them. And speaking of the Education Department, President Trump's pick to lead it is on Capitol Hill right now, lead it and then dismantle it, I should say, facing lawmakers for her confirmation hearing.

And in moments, the Senate will vote on another one of Trump's cabinet picks, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., for Health and Human Services Secretary. And Kash Patel is facing a key test in his path to become FBI director.

Later this hour, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth will hold a press conference in Brussels after he ruled out Ukraine joining NATO, sending allies scrambling.

But, first, we begin with the firings that are upending the federal government right now as we speak. For the latest on this, we're joined now by CNN's Rene Marsh and Alayna Treene at the White House.

Rene, first to you, what do we know about who has been impacted so far?

RENE MARSH, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. So, Pamela, I mean, worth noting this is a new phase because up until now, we had just been talking about federal employees being placed on paid administrative leave, and now we're hearing about actual terminations. We've heard from union, as well as members who have been impacted at both the Department of Education and Small Business Administration.

And as far as like who is impacted, I can tell you just at the Department of Education alone, there are employees who are in the General Counsel's Office, the Special Education and Rehabilitation Services Division, Federal Student Aid Division, all these individuals have received notices saying that they're being terminated. And we got a hold of one of those termination letters and this is just a portion of it. It says, quote, we are writing to inform you of your termination. The agency finds based on your performance that you have not demonstrated that your further employment at the agency would be in the public interest.

Again, we are in this new phase where it's not just paid leave, but now people are actually being terminated. And this is all coming just one day after, you know, yesterday, this federal judge gave a win really to the Trump administration denying labor unions' request for the judge to halt their buyout plan that the administration has been offering.

And we know so far, some 75,000 federal employees have accepted the Trump administration's buyout plan, which says if you resign now, you'll be paid through the end of September. 75,000 sounds like a lot of people, but keep in mind, it's only a sliver. There are more than 2 million within the federal workforce. So, still a lot of skepticism.

BROWN: And that's on the table anymore, right, that offer, right? The Trump administration --

MARSH: Yes, that window has closed.

BROWN: You can't do this anymore. Now you're vulnerable to being fired, and we're seeing that take place right now, according to reporting.

Alayna, to bring you in the New York Times is reporting that Elon Musk's team is involved in 19 federal agencies. What are you hearing from the White House about the firings going on right now in some of these agencies? And what more could we see today?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Look, they're celebrating them, Pamela. And, I mean, that with that New York Times reporting, I'm expecting that 19 number to grow. We know that what Elon Musk and the broader Department of Government Efficiency, DOGE, as they call it, wants to do is have their hands in more than that in all the federal government and really try to hunt down waste, fraud and abuse that they claim is permeating throughout the government workforce.

Now, just to get a little bit more into some of the firings that Rene broke down, because I want to underscore what she said, this is the first time we're actually seeing these people being fired since then. So far, it's really been about putting them on paid administrative leave.

But now we're really starting to see these widespread layoffs. I want to add as well that this should not come as a surprise. We knew this was coming. We actually broke the story last week that they were planning to have these widespread layoffs really as soon as that deferred resignation or so-called buyout program ended.

[10:05:08]

They were planning to have those layoffs begin immediately after that. As Rene noted, that deadline was pushed because of the legal battles, but it did close last night and now we're starting to see this.

Another thing to add as well is even though we're just starting to learn about some of these firings happening at the Department of Education and the Small Business Administration, it's going to be further than that. So, this is just the start, I think, of what we're going to see be really sweeping layoffs that really permeates the entire federal bureaucracy.

Now, I also just want to get into some of what we've heard from Elon Musk himself on this. One is that he said that he wants to delete agencies all together. I want you to take a listen to how he put it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELON MUSK, DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY: We do need to delete entire agencies as opposed to leave part of them behind. Because if you leave part of them behind. It's easy. It's kind of like leaving a weed. If you don't remove the roots of the weed, then it's easy for the weed to grow back. But if you remove the roots of the weed, it doesn't stop weeds from ever growing back, but it makes it harder. So, we have to really delete entire agencies, many of them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TREENE: Now, there you have Musk saying in his own words that he doesn't want to leave some of these agencies, any part of them behind, the weed starts at the root. We know that they've already begun trying to do that with, for example, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. That's just one agency that they're looking to eliminate all together. So, I think we're going to see much more of this in the coming weeks, Pamela.

BROWN: All right. Alayna Treene, Rene Marsh, thanks so much.

So, for more on this, Randi Weingarten joins us now. She's the president of the American Federation of Teachers, one of the largest teachers unions in the country.

What are you hearing, Randi, from your members who have woken up to these letters?

RANDI WEINGARTEN, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN FEDERATION OF TEACHERS: So, you know, our members work in the field in schools. We don't have members that actually work at the Department of Education, but we have people like, for example, the head of all of career tech ed at the Department of Education. This is career tech ed month. So, we were talking to her when she was put on leave. And she's the one who actually make sure that school districts all across America have the money that they need for kids to become welders and for kids to have apprentice programs or for things like that.

So, what we're hearing is just complete chaos and, frankly, a whole bunch of cruelty. Because at the end of the day, you can make departments more efficient, and I'm not a big believer in bureaucracy, but this feels like, as Elon Musk said to you, evisceration. So, here's a guy who has hundreds of millions of dollars of contracts from these departments, and he's not touching them. But what he's doing is really taking money from kids who really needed in the field and these departments. Yes, they can be much more efficient, but that's what the Education Department does. It gives out money to kids so you can feed them a decent lunch, so we can have, you know, tutors for reading, so you can actually help kids with math problems. That's what's going on right now.

BROWN: And to be clear on Elon Musk, we really don't know the scope of what exactly he's doing. He's been involved with 19 agencies. He does have some contracts in front of those agencies, but there's not transparency. And when it comes to the funds, the Trump administration says that it's going to go to locals, that the local officials know what's best for their community and the Education Department is no longer needed. That is what they say. Why is that an issue for you?

WEINGARTEN: So, look, spoiler alert, that's what happens now. I mean, education, if I can make one point to your listeners or viewers, education is run by states and localities. It's always been run by states and localities. But about 50 or 60 years ago, you know, Lyndon Johnson, who was one of those local teachers, his kids would come into his classroom without shoes on. They were really poor.

And so when he became president, he said, look, you know, let's actually level up. Instead of taking -- you know, instead of actually trying to say to states and localities, you've got to spend more, which, you know, they should, let's actually have federal dollars that help kids who are poor. Let's actually have federal dollars that help kids who are disabled. Let's actually have federal dollars if career tech ed is important for that kind of things.

So, what the Department of Education does is it's a supplement that actually really helps kids. And if you ask any teacher in America and you say to them, Title 1, they're like, oh my God, we need those funds to help kids.

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BROWN: What do you say though to the Republicans, the administration, who argues, look, the Department of Education has been there. But when you look at the metrics, like test scores, they are down across the board, and that is really concerning. And so what is the Department of Education actually doing if we're seeing these poor test scores? And we haven't seen a rebound since COVID hit, and as you well know, they blame -- put a lot of a blame on the Democrats and teachers unions for the way that was handled. What do you say to that?

WEINGARTEN: So, if you look across the world, what you're seeing is that places where you had fairly well off schools, you saw rebounds. Places where you had really poor ventilation in schools or overcrowding schools, you don't see that rebound. And you also see as actually some conservative journalists said when these scores came out that things like social media have really hurt here.

So, I look at the scores around the world and what it's showing is, yes, we have to strengthen education. We have to make schools safe and welcoming places, and we have to do a lot more career tech ed and project-based instruction to make it engaging and relevant for kids. And that means, frankly, looking at the accountability processes that were put in place by George W. Bush, because we've seen a plateauing out since that happened. Before that happened in the late 19 -- in the in like 1980s, 1990s, you saw scores gallop up.

So, we need to do a lot of these things. But this is the point I'm trying to make. It's the -- what the Federal Department of Education does is about helping the kids who need the most. We need those services. And, frankly, I also think that we need federal intervention to have more career tech ed, to have more apprenticeships, to actually make sure that every young person in high school gets to make a choice between do you want shop, do you want career opportunities in addition to college. That's what a federal role is.

BROWN: Let me just follow up with one question as this Senate votes to approve Linda McMahon to run the Department of Education and dismantle it, as Trump himself said, that is taking place right now. As this is taking place, what would be your message to her? What is the impact, for example? Help us understand the impact of some of these firings happening right now, for example, the Education Department employee referenced. What would happen -- what's going to happen as a result of that?

WEINGARTEN: It's going to make it harder for teachers to teach and kids to learn. But from 30,000 feet, think about it this way. For every parent in America, if the first thing that Donald Trump does is says, I'm taking away education opportunities, what does that say to kids? I'm doing it so that we can have more tax cuts for the wealthy. What does that say? The kids and parents make it more efficient.

Let's do more career tech ed. Let's make sure we have more apprenticeships. Let's make sure we have safe and welcoming schools. There's a lot of things that we can do together. Don't pull the rug out from under kids. We need to protect our kids and strengthen our schools. And so the symbolic value here says to people across America, they don't care about education.

BROWN: Randi Weingarten, thank you for sharing your thoughts and your perspective on this. We appreciate it.

After the break, I'll get some reaction from Republican Congressman Carlos Gimenez. I'll ask him about the future of USAID as well. We'll be back.

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BROWN: Well, this could be a pivotal morning in deciding the future of USAID. Right now, on Capitol Hill, the House Foreign Affairs Committee is looking at the humanitarian aid agency that President Trump wants to dismantle. He has said USAID is a waste of money and run by, quote, lunatics. The former administrator is being grilled in a hearing that Republican critics have titled the USAID betrayal. Next hour, a federal judge will hear arguments on blocking the administration's efforts to shut down the agency. The lawsuit is filed by the agency's foreign service workers.

It includes harrowing accounts from the Democratic Republic of Congo. In sworn statements, USAID workers described chaotic departures because of these violent protests they had to leave and a lack of essential guidance from a staff thrown into disarray. One USAID staffer told me that what the administration has done just created a lot of uncertainty and chaos into the situation.

Joining us now is Congressman Carlos Gimenez. He is a Republican who represents Florida, including part of Miami-Dade County. Thanks for coming on, Congressman.

So, I just want to start off by establishing, you agree with many of the cuts we're seeing so far to USAID, from what I gather from other interviews you've done. So, I want to put that aside, the specific cuts happening. Do you believe the way the administration has handled the cuts, given the impact on its American staffers, is appropriate?

REP. CARLOS GIMENEZ (R-FL): Look, I think that this particular agency has lost its mission. And sometimes you have to really take it down to its basics and then start over again. I think that's what the administration is going to do.

[10:20:01]

I am very confident that Secretary of State Marco Rubio will put it back together again the way it should be and that U.S. taxpayer dollars will be spent to advance American interests on critical issues. And that should be and has been supposedly the role of USAID, and it needs to get back to its core mission.

BROWN: So, you say we should -- it needs to be dismantled and rebuilt essentially.

GIMENEZ: Yes.

BROWN: I spoke at length to a USAID staffer last night just to better understand what's going on. And this staffer described mass anxiety amid this uncertainty with staffers left to pay their own way, not knowing if they'll get reimbursed while also being labeled criminals by the administration. The staffer told me they're communicating and organizing on signal under pseudonyms trying to figure out what is going on because they have no guidance from the U.S. government. They call it digital Dunkirk.

These employees have been conducting the nation's businesses overseas, often in countries where anti-American sentiment is a threat. Whether or not you agree with the mission that they're on, they're government employees. Do these workers not deserve the guarantee of a safe passage home and considerate treatment equal to their predecessors upon their return?

GIMENEZ: Well, I believe that they should be guaranteed a safe passage home. They were working for the U.S. government. And, yes, we need to protect our workers, whether we agree with what they did or not. Now, the folks that are saying that they're criminals or that we're saying they're criminals, are maybe folks that were dishing out money after the president told them not to. And so they were given direct orders not to, and some of them are still, you know, putting money out in spite of what the president said.

Look, you may disagree with what the president, but there are other ways to disagree with him. Don't disobey his orders. You want to go to the courts? You want to go through some other channel? Fine, but don't just disobey a direct order from the president.

BROWN: So, just -- and I see your point there about still putting the money out despite what the president said, but, of course, as you know, USAID is a congressional mandated agency, and that that was money that was already appropriated, but you can make the point that, look, the president said what he said, and this is all being litigated as well.

You know, just to follow up, you know, and you make the point that, look, they should be treated with respect. You had a pregnant woman who said in this affidavit she wasn't given food for 12 hours upon her return and had to pay out of pocket for prenatal care upon her return. Is that acceptable? What do you think about that?

GIMENEZ: I'm not sure, you know, about the claim. I mean, a lot of people could be claiming a lot of things. Like I said --

BROWN: This is an affidavit of the court (ph).

GIMENEZ: They should be treated with respect. And they should, you know, have safe passage back to the United States. If we have to pay for her food, I don't know if that's part of our contract or not. But, again, they should be treated with respect. We need to -- if there's part of a contract that says that we need to abide by that, we should follow what the contract says. But that doesn't mean at the end that they're going to keep their jobs.

This agency lost its way, you know, lost focus on its mission. It needs to be reestablished, reconfigured, so that our taxpayer dollars, American taxpayer dollars, are directed in a way that advances America's interests and does that around the world.

There are things that they did, which I agree with, but there are things that they did that I don't agree with, and I believe the majority of the American people don't agree with. We want to throw out what's bad, and we want to keep what's good, and redirect some of that bad, you know, really badly spent money into good causes. And I think that that's what Senator Marco Rubio is going to do.

BROWN: And that's a fair desire. And I think a lot of Americans I want to see their taxpayer money going to good use. Of course, it's up to debate what that looks like, right? It's going to vary person to person.

Your fellow Republican colleague, Representative Michael McCaul, told my colleague, Manu Raju, that the administration's efforts to shutter USAID could lead to some really bad, unintended consequences. I want to take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL (R-TX): There will be problems. If you have life saving medication and food tied up in the Houston port that's, you know, going to waste or 500,000 metric tons on the ships on the seas where it can't go anywhere, that sort of defies common sense.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: What do you say to that? I mean, an administration is making efficiency and common sense central tenants to the government. Do you think it makes sense to let millions of dollars in medications and food spoil on ships in the name of this effort?

GIMENEZ: No, it doesn't make sense and that's why I believe that Senator Marco Rubio is going to get on it as soon as he can and make sure that the unintended consequences of this action are abated as quickly as possible.

Look, when you take an action like this, always, there's going to be some, some collateral damage, all right?

[10:25:03]

And so that's why, again, I have confidence that Senator Marco Rubio is going to straighten this ship out and get it going as quickly as possible. I don't disagree with my colleague from Texas, but, again, when you do, when you take action like this in such a large agency, yes, there's going to be some things, oh, wow, hey, we didn't think about that, let's fix that right away. But we need to fix this agency so we don't have to do this again for a while.

BROWN: So, do you think that that should have been taken into consideration before they did this?

GIMENEZ: Yes, but there's so many things, Pam, in every agency. There are thousands and thousands of things that are happening. They're being funded, et cetera. You couldn't possibly say and take care of every single one. There's always going to be something that's going to slip through the cracks.

So, again, as these things are being brought forward, it is my hope that the administration fixes it as quickly as possible, gets those ships out sailing again, make sure that those vaccines and medications don't spoil, because then, again, that would be a waste of taxpayer money.

And so I would hope that that's what happens. But I'm not the president of the United States and I'm not in the administration. I just know what I would do if I were in that position.

BROWN: Well, you are, but you have an important position as a member of Congress, legislative branch, co-equal branch of government. I want to ask you about the president's immigration crackdown. You were speaking out now in defense of law abiding Venezuelans who are losing their U.S. temporary protected status and facing possible deportation. When I had you on the show last time, you were fully in favor of the immigration crackdown, and you believed at that time your constituents wouldn't be impacted. It seems that has changed.

GIMENEZ: Yes, it has a little bit. It has. And so I wrote a letter to the secretary of Homeland Security saying that, look, while all Tren de Aragua members are Venezuelans, not all Venezuelans belong to Tren de Aragua. And so it needs to be nuanced. You may take away TPS, but that also needs to be nuanced. And now I know that those that were under TPS are going to have to find some other mechanism, asylum, et cetera. I also disagree with the notion that somehow, the things have gotten better in Venezuela. They haven't gotten any better. And so that was one of the premises as to why you took away TPS.

Look, in my county, Miami-Dade County, it's different than the migrants, Venezuelan migrants that are in New York and Chicago. They're not in hotels, they're not on the streets, they've been assimilated into the community, they're working, and so we don't have the same problems that they have across the nation. When you take a broad stroke and you paint everybody the same way, then you have these issues.

And when I see that, hey, this is outside those lines, then it's up to me as a congressman to represent my constituency, but also, you know, tell the president, hey, look, you may want to do this in a different way because, yes, you want to get rid of the criminals, you want to get -- you want to deport all those at deportation orders. But you know what? There's people here that have a good reason to be here. They're working in this country. And let's see if we can find a way around that so that, yes, the bad are taken back, the ones that deportation orders are taken back, but there are other folks that really do have fear of repercussion when they go back to Venezuela or Cuba, et cetera, and those people should be treated a little bit differently.

BROWN: All right. Congressman Carlos Gimenez, thank you for coming on.

GIMENEZ: It's my pleasure.

BROWN: Linda McMahon, Trump's pick for Education Secretary, speaking at her hearing. Let's listen.

LINDA MCMAHON, EDUCATION SECRETARY NOMINEE: American companies need high skill employees. Our workers deserve more post-secondary pathways, career-aligned programs, apprenticeships, and on-the-job learning, and jobs in tech, skill trades, and healthcare for non- college degree holders. Those who do attend college deserve transparent costs and courses of study aligned to workforce demand.

The United States is the world leader by far in emerging technologies, like A.I. and Blockchain, and we need to invest in American students who want to become tech pioneers. We should encourage innovative new institutions, develop smart accountability systems, and tear down barriers to entry so that students have real choice and universities are not saddling future families with insurmountable debt.

We must protect all students from discrimination and harassment. And if I am confirmed, the department will not stand idly by while Jewish students are attacked and discriminated against. It will stop forcing schools to let boys and men into female sports and spaces. And it will protect the rights of parents to direct the moral education of their children.

The opportunity before us these next four years is momentous. I look forward to working with the committee, our nation's parents, teachers, and students, and education leaders from all political perspectives to build a better future for every American learner.

Thank you so much for the opportunity to speak with you today, and I look forward to your questions.

SEN. BILL CASSIDY (R-LA): Thank you very much. I shall begin.

[10:30:00]

Everybody's rightly focused on the fact that we have --

BROWN: All right. You just heard Linda McMahon's opening speech there.