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Some Education Department Employees Fired; Republicans Set to Confirm Trump Cabinet Nominees; U.S. Defense Secretary Speaks at NATO Summit. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired February 13, 2025 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:37]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Good morning. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Pamela Brown in Washington.

And, right now, we're listening to Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth at the NATO Summit in Brussels. Let's listen.

PETE HEGSETH, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: Yesterday, I had a chance to attend the Ukraine Defense Contact Group, today participated (AUDIO GAP) and Ukraine Council.

In both, we discussed Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine. I had the chance to brief allies on President Trump's top priority, a diplomatic, peaceful end to this war as quickly as possible in a manner that creates enduring and durable peace.

The American Defense Department fully supports the efforts of the Trump administration. And we look to allies to support this important work, with leading on Ukraine's security assistance now through increased contributions and greater ownership of future security assistance to Ukraine.

To that end, I want to thank my U.K. counterpart, Defense Secretary John Healey, for hosting this Ukraine Defense Contact Group and for his leadership on support of Ukraine.

President Trump gave me a clear mission, achieve peace through strength, as well as put America first, our people, our taxpayers, our borders, and our security. We are doing this by reviving the warrior ethos, rebuilding our military and reestablishing deterrence.

NATO should pursue these goals as well. NATO is a great alliance, the most successful defense alliance in history. But to endure for the future, our partners must do far more for Europe's defense. We must make NATO great again.

It begins with defense spending, but must also include reviving the transatlantic defense industrial base, rapidly fielding emerging technologies, prioritizing readiness and lethality, and establishing real deterrence.

Finally, I want to close with this. After World War II, first General and then President Eisenhower was one of NATO's strongest supporters. He believed in a strong relationship with Europe. However, by the end of Eisenhower's presidency, even he was concerned that Europe was not shouldering enough of its own defense, nearly making, in Eisenhower's words -- quote -- "a sucker out of Uncle Sam."

Well, like President Eisenhower, this administration believes in alliances, deeply believes in alliances. But make no mistake, President Trump will not allow anyone to turn Uncle Sam into Uncle Sucker.

Thank you. And we're glad to take some questions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks very much. Let's start with...

BROWN: All right, you were just listening to defense Secretary Pete Hegseth speaking there at NATO.

I want to bring in retired Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton.Also with us is CNN's Fred Pleitgen, who is joining us now live from Moscow.

To you first, Cedric. He made clear, reiterated what we have heard from President Trump, that NATO countries should pay more. They want 5 percent. But even the U.S. doesn't pay 5 percent of its GDP, right?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: That's right. We pay about 3.36 percent of our GDP. So I don't know if this means that they're going to ask Congress for an increase in defense spending to make it to the 5 percent threshold, or if the Europeans are going to be basically asked to move in a direction that the U.S. is not going to be moving in.

There are perhaps hints that that might be the case, but it's clear that there's a difference in the way the U.S. is talking to its European allies, as opposed to how the U.S. is handling its domestic budgetary affairs when it comes to defense at this point.

[11:05:03]

BROWN: And that would certainly be a question, if I was there, I would want to ask him right now.

To bring you in on this, Fred, he's speaking at the NATO Summit, and he said recently that he does not believe, he thinks it's unrealistic for Ukraine to be part of NATO and to basically take that off the table, among other things. That really works in Russia's favor.

But he also said he's not betraying Ukraine, which one would imagine Ukraine has a different view of this. What has the reaction been in Russia?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Oh, the Russians are absolutely thrilled, not just by the things that Pete Hegseth has been saying, but, of course, also by that phone call that happened last night between President Trump and the Russian President Vladimir Putin.

And you can really feel that on the ground here, Pamela, in Moscow, in political Moscow, how they're already getting ready for possible talks in the future. But one of the things, of course, that Pete Hegseth, the secretary of defense, did say, as you mentioned, was the fact that he does not believe that Ukraine will be part of NATO in the not-too- distant future, at least.

And that certainly is something that we have been hearing from the Russians is one of their main positions as well. The Russians have been telling us that, for them, NATO membership for Ukraine is an absolute red line.

I asked the deputy foreign minister of Russia about this a few days ago. He said it was a red line for them. Also, one of the other things that the Russians have been very happy about from the Trump administration as well, Pamela, is the fact that Pete Hegseth also said that, as part of any sort of mission to Ukraine, foreign troops, NATO troops on the ground there, that U.S. troops would not be part of that.

And that is definitely also something that the Russians have been wanting to hear, Pamela.

BROWN: Cedric, quickly to you. Why should every American watching this, why do they care? I think sometimes we get so in the weeds and talk big picture and the global scale, but why do Americans care about this?

LEIGHTON: They should care because if -- what happens in Europe really impacts everything that happens on our continent as well.

When you look at the way in which the Ukraine war unfolded, that resulted in energy shortages, which first affected Europe, but then started to affect the U.S. Those were mitigated by actions by the previous administration, but those are the kinds of things that could happen.

So you could have energy shortages. You could have raw material shortages, the food shortages that resulted from the attack along the Ukrainian agricultural area. All of that prevented food from getting from Ukraine to the Third World.

And the problem there is that then affects things like food prices. So that's one big reason why we should care about what happens to Ukraine.

BROWN: All right, thanks so much.

I want to go to our Manu Raju now on Capitol Hill with the RFK Jr. vote.

What's the latest there?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, going on right now to confirm RFK Jr. to the position of Health and Human Services after weeks and really (AUDIO GAP) behind the scenes (AUDIO GAP) is on track to get confirmed by the United States Senate. This vote is still (AUDIO GAP) is not yet at the (AUDIO GAP) that's

really what he needs (AUDIO GAP) the 53-47 Republican-controlled Senate. All he needs is (AUDIO GAP) but then he is assured to get (AUDIO GAP) we (AUDIO GAP) senators are expected to vote (AUDIO GAP)

BROWN: All right, clearly having some issues there Manu Raju.

We're going to take a quick break and we will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:13:01]

BROWN: I want to go to Manu Raju on Capitol Hill.

So, Manu Raju, bring us there. We just learned that GOP Senator Mitch McConnell voted against RFK Jr. as HHS secretary. I believe this is his third vote against a Trump nominee. You have to wonder how much the fact that he was a polio survivor factored into this as well.

RAJU: Yes, there's no question about it.

He had been the one Republican senator, as we were watching this vote play out, we were uncertain how he would ultimately vote. And that one big reason is why, the issue of vaccines, very important to Senator McConnell. He is a childhood polio survivor.

And, in fact, when it came out earlier that there was someone linked to RFK Jr. who was pushing to try to revoke the authorization for the polio vaccine, McConnell issued a very strongly worded statement about that. RFK Jr. later said he supports the polio vaccine.

But it had been a question all along how Mitch McConnell in a new phase of his long career, now in the rank and file, no longer the Republican leader, someone who has battled with Donald Trump for years in the aftermath of January 6, how he would come down on this critical nomination.

But just moments ago, he voted no. And he's expected to be the lone Republican senator to vote no against RFK Jr. to take one of the most important positions in government, to lead the Health and Human Services Department, in charge of all the nation's health agencies.

This vote is still ongoing. It is expected, with Mitch McConnell's opposition, to still get confirmed. RFK Jr. is still expected to get confirmed probably on a 52-48 vote, with McConnell being the lone senator breaking ranks.

But no question about it, this is a very fascinating development in a career that has been one who has led his party, the longest-serving leader in the history of the United States Senate of either party, took arrows for his party for years, worked with Donald Trump to get many of his -- parts of his agenda through, getting three Supreme Court nominees confirmed, but now in this phase of his career making clear he believes Trump has gone too far in certain areas.

[11:15:00]

He voted against Pete Hegseth to be the defense secretary nominee and, just yesterday, Tulsi Gabbard to be the next director of national intelligence. They both still got their posts, despite McConnell's opposition, and here making clear he's a no on RFK Jr. as well.

We will wait to see his statement that comes out in just a matter of minutes, but one notable defection here, McConnell voting no, with the rest of the party voting yes, as RFK Jr. poised to get this critical position, Pamela.

BROWN: Wow.

And what about Kash Patel? What do we know about the vote there?

RAJU: Yes, this just happened along party lines after a marathon session in the Senate Judiciary Committee. He was approved 12 to 10 along party lines to advance the nomination of Kash Patel to the full Senate. And that is expected to be -- come up in the Senate as soon as next week, where we expect another party-line vote.

Remember, Kash Patel got this position after Chris Wray, the then-FBI director, stepped aside. Wray had a 10-year term. Typically, when a new president comes in, he does not install his own FBI director. But Trump made clear he wanted Kash Patel, someone who's been very loyal to the Trump agenda, very loyal follower of Donald Trump, he wanted Patel in that position, a former congressional aide on Capitol Hill on the House side, on the Intelligence Committee on the House side, well- known in the House circles, not as well-known in Senate circles.

But he was able to win over all Republicans on that committee to back him. We expect all Republicans most likely to vote for him on the Senate floor. We will see how Mitch McConnell votes on that one as well.

But Kash Patel is also expected, despite the controversy, to get in position here, which shows that Donald Trump is getting his nominees through, getting the party in line, even his most controversial picks, whether it's RFK Jr., Tulsa Gabbard, or Kash Patel, by next week, getting them across the finish line, as Republicans fall in line.

And Democrats voice their opposition, but they don't have the votes to stop these nominees, which is why they're ultimately going to be confirmed -- Pamela.

BROWN: Very, very busy morning there on Capitol Hill. Thanks, Manu.

We're also going to go now to the Linda McMahon hearing. She is Trump's pick to lead the Education Department. As you know, Trump has said he wants her to put herself out of a job, because he wants to get rid of the department.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI (R-AK): ... for public schools. Pretty simple. And so I want to ask you whether you believe it is your primary role

and responsibility as secretary to support and strengthen our nation's public schools.

LINDA MCMAHON, U.S. EDUCATION SECRETARY NOMINEE: I absolutely do believe that our public schools are the bedrock of our education.

They go back to the very founding of our country. I think, in the first Constitution, there were actually sectors of each state that were set aside for the specific goal of public education. And so education is certainly understood to be so vital and so important to what we're doing.

I understand the schools in Alaska. I think, when I was in your office, we were talking about the school that I visited in Kwethluk, which is a very, very small island. And this school was being funded by SBA. This was when I was at SBA.

And because we were looking at the fact that there was no real community center and no glue holding the community together, and that children, especially in K-12, often dropped out of school because they didn't see the need or the necessity to continue with education. And they would often wind up on the streets or not having jobs.

I have not checked back with that school to see how it was going. But I saw the commitment of that community to invest and to make sure that the best education -- and this was a state-of-the-art school built on this island. And when I pulled up in the boat in that village, there were mothers in a smoking hut that were cutting salmon to get ready for the winter.

And on the other side, there was this incredibly modern school that was being built. And I think we have to invest our public education if we can use public funds to help with tutoring in those issues and those instances where you don't have a choice to go to another school.

MURKOWSKI: And you quite possibly saw one of the very few examples of good infrastructure. And, as we know, it's not just giving a good building. It is making sure that you have teachers that are able to stay in a village that lacks a lot of resources, a lot of support.

I want to pivot from that, but I do want to underscore the emphasis on education equity across America, including in the most rural of areas, because I listen to a lot of the comments around here, and it works if you're in a city, but it doesn't work in my communities. And I have an obligation to them.

I want to ask you about local control here real quickly. This has been something that, as Republicans, we have been talking about. This is local control, local control, local control. And we have got a lot of folks that are suggesting that now the public school curriculum should not include lessons in diversity, equity and inclusion, want to focus on other things. I understand that.

[11:20:08]

BROWN: We're listening there to the hearing with Linda McMahon for education secretary.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: President Trump and Elon Musk's vowed to cut government spending has entered a dramatic new phase.

[11:25:00]

Some employees of the Department of Education woke up to this e-mail obtained by CNN, saying: "The agency finds, based on your performance, that you have not demonstrated that your further employment at the agency would be in the public interest."

Now, the number of employees who got that e-mail is unclear. Musk, for his part, spoke at a global leader summit about much larger-scale firings to come.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELON MUSK, OWNER, X: I mean, how many agencies do you really need to run a country, like 99? Not 450, that's for sure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And the judge just allowed the Trump administration to move forward with its so-called buyout offer for federal employees, but the offer apparently is no longer on the table. About 75,000 workers have accepted that package.

Joining us now is Sheria Smith. She's a civil rights attorney at the Department of Education and president of a local union that represents more than 2,800 of its employees.

Sheria, first, walk us through the impact this is having on your members. Did you get the e-mail? How many of them have received this e-mail terminating their employment?

SHERIA SMITH, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION UNION PRESIDENT: We have a number, I think, counting of 60 employees that have received an e- mail. Not all of the e-mails mentioned that they were being terminated because of performance. Not all of these employees even received e- mails.

Some of them just received phone calls from their supervisors with no written instructions. What we have here is a chaotic environment and what I believe is intentional infliction upon the dedicated serve public servants in my agency. It's pure chaos.

BROWN: You mentioned a phone call. So tell us about that.

SMITH: Yes, a phone call that -- just a phone call. They can't get into their computers. They are -- they haven't been given -- received any documentation. What is interesting about this is that many of my colleagues reported

receiving to their personal e-mail addresses offers for this deferred resignation. So the agency has our personal e-mail addresses, but yet they are not receiving to their personal e-mail addresses or to their agency e-mail addresses even a written letter saying that they are terminated or explaining the reasons why.

BROWN: So tell us a little bit more about this, because it's a little bit confusing to track about exactly what's going on.

SMITH: Yes.

BROWN: Do you have anyone who, like, for example, accepted the buyout but are still receiving this letter?

SMITH: We do. So we have one employee, a disabled veteran who accepted the buyout because of the spamming to his personal e-mail address with the deferred resignation offer. He accepted it on the 4th of February, so before the deadline, and he still received an e-mail yesterday stating that he was terminated.

And these terminations are coming from across our agency for employees that are across the country.

BROWN: So what kind of a personal impact is this having, especially on, as you point out, this one employee, a disabled vet, who thought they were taking the buyout and paid through September and then got this e-mail saying that they were actually fired and the confusion from that?

What kind of a personal impact is there?

SMITH: Again, he's traumatized, and he's extremely confused. We saw e-mails to his supervisors trying to understand -- copying that supervisor to the resignation that he gave where he accepted the offer, and explained that he's disabled. He's a veteran.

He'd love to come back, but he's accepting the buyout offer, and confused about why the agency is not honoring its promise to those employees who accepted the offer to not terminate them. He has been terminated, and has not been -- no one has explained to him why.

It is not based on his performance.

BROWN: I'm wondering. For you, you're a civil rights attorney for the Department of Education. President Trump said he wants it to go away. Linda McMahon is testifying on Capitol Hill today. She's set to take over, and then, as Trump instructed her, to basically get rid of her own job.

As an employee there right now, what is it like? Are you looking for other employment right now?

SMITH: You know, I came to this job from the private sector. I made considerably more money than I make now. I came to this job to work for the public, and I think that's the most important thing to take away from here.

The trauma that's being inflicted upon my colleagues because they dedicated their lives to serve the public, the true bearers of that pain are going to be the members of the public. We're hearing from members of the public right now from extreme -- from rural areas, from urban areas.

A parent from Kentucky e-mailed, whose attorneys that they have been working with were placed on paid administrative leave, e-mailed because they were concerned about the state of their sexual assault complaint against their district that we were working with them on for free and what would happen to that.

[11:30:00]