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Trump Unveils Reciprocal Tariffs On Trading Partners; Trump: Talks To End Ukraine Conflict Will Start "Immediately"; Judge Extends Freeze On Trump Dismantling Of USAID; Massive Solar Plant In Mojave Desert Faces Closure. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired February 13, 2025 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: -- about for a long time because he sees what's happening and he sees how the country is really being hurt badly by all of the fraud, waste and abuse.
[15:00:08]
Yeah?
REPORTER: So how would you know whether he's meeting with the CEO or meeting with a representative of your government?
TRUMP: Well, he's meeting with me in a little while, so I'm going to ask him that question. All right? I'll ask him that question. Yeah.
REPORTER: What should we expect, sir? You mentioned obviously steel and aluminum and pharmaceuticals. What are you thinking about the auto tariffs? You haven't talked about that much.
TRUMP: I think autos are coming soon. I think they're all coming more or less at the same time. And it's not going to be a big shock to the system.
But what it's going to do is its going to bring pharmaceuticals back to our country. Much more important than the money. It's a lot of money, but it's going to bring pharmaceuticals back to our country.
It's going to bring chips back to our country. It's going to bring automobile. We're going to do a lot more automobile manufacturing in our country.
You know, when I did this, when I announced this, during the campaign, they were going to build the largest car plant in the world in Mexico was almost under construction. It was just starting. And when they heard me make that statement and they thought I was going to win the election, actually, it was a few months before the election itself.
China was building the car plant. It was going to be the largest in the world. They immediately stopped construction. You can see the foundations there. They immediately stopped when they heard I was doing this.
That would have destroyed Detroit. It would have destroyed Michigan. This plant would have taken up more than almost the whole state built, and it would have it would have been very destructive when they heard me speak and they said, wow, if he gets in, we're going to -- we're going to lose our share. So they stopped building. That's the impact that tariffs have.
Again, you know, I say it and I say it loudly. It's the most beautiful word. But now I say religion love and a couple of other things are more beautiful because I got a lot of problems with the fake news when they said, oh, other things are more important.
God is more important. But these are the words. But I would say its number 4 or 5. To me, it's the most beautiful.
And I'll tell you what? I think really reciprocal tariffs, those two words. Reciprocal or reciprocal makes tariffs really fair.
(CROSSTALK)
REPORTER: There should be no exemptions, right? It would be all auto imports?
TRUMP: -- any exemptions. No because you don't need to. With reciprocal, you don't need to.
REPORTER: Mr. President, Mr. President --
(CROSSTALK)
REPORTER: -- at the IRS.
REPORTER: Fox Radio. Do you have an update on the TikTok negotiations?
TRUMP: Yeah, we have a lot of people --
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Sure. Well, I have 90 days from about two weeks ago, right? And I'm sure it can be extended, but let's see, I don't think you'll need to. We have a lot of people interested in TikTok, and, I hope to be able to make a deal. I think it would be good.
You know, people have learned it's very popular, and well have to probably get approval from China to do it. But we have a lot of people that are interested and a lot of people, I think China will be interested because it's to their benefit too. So I look forward to that.
But we have a lot of people that are interested in TikTok. Quite a few.
REPORTER: Mr. President, DOGE workers arrived today. Gavin Kliger and others arrived today at the IRS. Do you expect to close the IRS or what do you expect?
TRUMP: No, I don't expect it. But I think -- I think that the Internal Revenue Service will be looked at like everybody else. Just about everybody is going to be looked at. So, it's -- they're doing a hell of a job. It's an amazing job they're doing.
And, you know, that force is building these. I call it the force of super geniuses, but it's building. And, you know, they go up and they talk to some of the people about certain deals, and the people get all tongue tied. They can't talk because these people get it. They're very smart people. We need smart people.
Yes? Brian?
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Yeah, Brian?
REPORTER: Yes, sir. Mr. President, I know that during the campaign, it was huge in Pennsylvania, as far as bringing back manufacturing.
TRUMP: Right.
REPORTER: You talked to any CEOs since the tariffs were announced and steel and aluminum. What's the feedback from those?
TRUMP: They are in love with it as you know, in Pennsylvania, U.S. Steel is through the roof. They're all through the roof. That's why I didn't want U.S. Steel to make a deal with Japan or anybody else. I think it's going to do great.
But, I think maybe more than anybody else, the steel companies and aluminum companies, they're in love with what's happened. And this will eventually be the car companies and chip companies. We have to have chips made in this country.
Right now, we -- everything is made in Taiwan, practically, almost all of it, a little bit in South Korea. But everything, almost all of it is made in Taiwan. And we want it to be made. We want those companies to come to our country.
In all due respect, you know, they took they took the business away. Taiwan took our chip business away. We had Intel. We had these great companies that did so well, and it was taken from us.
And we want that business back. We want it back in the United States. And if they don't bring it back, we're not going to be very happy.
(CROSSTALK)
REPORTER: Sir, on tariffs, are you --
TRUMP: Brian?
[15:05:01]
REPORTER: Pharmaceuticals as well. In China, that's national security to bring that back.
TRUMP: Yeah. China and other places. We want to get the pharmaceutical and drug business back into the United States, where it should be. Right?
REPORTER: Sir, on tariffs, are you concerned that the countries that would be most affected, like India, would just shift their trading to China?
TRUMP: No, I'm not concerned about anything really. I mean, I'm just -- I'm just doing what's fair. This is a very fair thing. This should have been done a long time ago.
I would have done it. But then COVID hit. I was getting ready to do this years ago and first term, we had the most successful economy in history. And then COVID hit and I was -- this was going to be the thing that I was most waiting to do.
But it was awfully hard to do this with Italy and France and Spain and these all those people were dying. And then we put tariffs on. I have a -- I have a big heart.
REPORTER: Sir, on Ukraine, when Putin says that he really wants peace. Do you believe him?
TRUMP: Yeah, I do, I believe he wants peace. I believe that President Putin, when I spoke to him yesterday, I mean, I know him very well. Yeah, I think he wants peace. I think he would tell me if he didn't, I think he'd -- I'd like to see peace.
REPORTER: Do you trust President Putin?
TRUMP: I believe that -- yeah. I believe that he would like to see something happen. I trust him on this subject. I think he'd like to see something happen.
I think it could have happened a long time ago. I think Biden -- number one, it shouldn't have started. But it did. And now all those cities are knocked down like demolition sites.
All those beautiful golden towers are knocked down. There's nothing going to replace them. But much more importantly, you lost millions of people, a lot of soldiers, but you lost millions of people.
When they knocked down those cities, and they're all laying down on the side. They're lying down just, in ashes and all crumbled up concrete. They literally looked like a world class demolition site.
And many of them, almost all of them, but many of them. And this should have been done by Biden years ago. This should have never been allowed to happen. I know he's a friend of yours.
REPORTER: But can Putin just withdraw --
TRUMP: He's a friend of CNN. That's why nobody watches CNN anymore because they have no -- no credibility.
Okay. Who else? Yes, please.
REPORTER: If you can find a buyer in the United States for TikTok, do you think Xi Jinping will authorize the sale of it, or will?
TRUMP: I'm going to make it worthwhile for China to do it, I think so. I mean, I got to know TikTok because during the election, I ended up with 36 percent higher than my opponent with youth. Okay? That never happened before. I mean, you know, that's always been a Democrat thing. Youth, it became a Trump thing.
And I think TikTok, I think Joe Rogan was a part of it. Some of the great people that I did interviews with were a part of it. But I think that TikTok, TikTok was a -- I think it was a big part.
Look, as you know, we were up by 36 percent with youth. The Republican was never up with youth, and I focused on TikTok and I found it to be amazing, actually, and very fair. And I think the image of TikTok is different than it was before the election. I think people saw it and they view it as a positive, not a negative.
I think it will be to China's advantage to have the deal be made. Yeah.
REPORTER: How much money do you think you'll raise from tariffs on an annual basis?
TRUMP: That's the most interesting question. I think it'll be a staggering amount. It will be the external -- I call it the external revenue service. That was the name that was devised by a few of us. But it's -- I think it's going to be a staggering amount.
REPORTER: The number 1 trillion floated in meetings with senators. Is that a number you thought of?
TRUMP: I don't know, but already the Senate saying, well, wait a minute. You know, they're looking at some of the numbers and they're saying, whoa, this is -- look, we want to -- I say America first. I say make America great again. That's what we're doing.
This is -- I think it's the most important thing I've signed. Ive signed some very important things. Right to try was so important. I mean, a lot of important things.
Space Force, the biggest tax cuts in history. You know, this could be one of the most important things that we've ever signed.
REPORTER: Do you expect the Russians and President Putin to attend the summit in Saudi Arabia?
TRUMP: Eventually, yeah, not quite yet. It's a little early. They're having a meeting in Munich tomorrow. Russia is going to be there with our people. Ukraine is also invited, by the way. I'm not sure exactly who's going to be there from any country, but high level people from Russia, from Ukraine and from the United States.
(CROSSTALK)
REPORTER: Do you (INAUDIBLE) have Russia back to the G7, sir? TRUMP: I'd love to have them back. I think it was a mistake to throw
them out. Look, it's not a question of liking Russia or not liking Russia. It was the G8. And, you know, I said, what are you doing, you guys? All you're talking about is Russia. And you, they should be sitting at the table.
I think Putin would love to be back. Obama and a couple of other people made a mistake and they got Russia out.
[15:10:02]
It's very possible that if that was the G8, you wouldn't have had the problem with Ukraine. And if I was president, you definitely wouldn't have had the problem with Ukraine. Russia would have never attacked Ukraine.
But -- but you ask a very good question. The G8, it used to be the G8. And then these people throw them out. And I was arguing with Trudeau and with -- with numerous of the people actually, Prime Minister Abe, a great man from Japan, agreed with me 100 percent. And some of the others did, too.
But I got there. It was a G7, as you know. They -- they had already been terminated. I think it would have been very helpful. And it still would be helpful to have Russia be a part of that mix.
And I think if they were, I don't think you would have had the problem that you have right now.
REPORTER: Russia is part of the G20.
REPORTER: They kicked them out, of course, because they illegally annexed Crimea. I mean, how would you have responded if Russia invaded or took over --
TRUMP: They took Crimea during Obama.
REPORTER: 2014.
TRUMP: They took -- they took -- now, they're looking to take the whole thing. Then they took a big chunk of land and people, as you know, during Bush, and now they're trying to take the whole thing during Biden. You know, the only one that didn't give him anything is Trump. They never took anything with Trump. Nothing. Not two inches of property, of land.
But they had -- Crimea was Obama. And then Bush gave him a lot. You remember? And then, in fact, its a sort of a standard little phrase. And Biden is giving them everything because this is a war that shouldn't have been had.
And the only one that didn't give them anything is Trump. That's the way it is.
REPORTER: President Trump --
(CROSSTALK)
REPORTER: --- Wall Street about these tariffs. There's been some nervousness on Wall Street about the impact --
TRUMP: I don't think so. I mean, there hasn't been very much. And I think it's going to make the United States stronger. And in many ways, it could make other countries stronger, too.
You know, other countries want to have a strong United States. They want to have a strong America. And I think it's going to make us very, very strong, much stronger. And we have a lot of work we're doing on the military, our military already, I've authorized some contracts to be built that are very substantial. We're building the greatest equipment in the world. We have the greatest military equipment in the world. We're building it.
At some point when things settle down, I'm going to meet with China, and I'm going to meet with Russia in particular, those two. And I'm going to say there's no reason for us to be spending almost $1 trillion on military. There's no reason for you to be spending $400 billion.
China is going to be at $400 billion. We're at a trillion. We're going to be at close to a trillion.
And I'm going to say, we can settle this or we can spend this on other things. We don't have to spend this on military because and I'm going to be meeting with China. You know, we were trying to de-escalate nuclear, and I was in a position where Russia had agreed and China had agreed we were going to start, and then we had a rigged election. So that never took place. But this one was too big to rig. We won by so much that it was too big to rig.
(CROSSTALK)
REPORTER: The China meeting in the United States, or would you travel to China for that?
TRUMP: For what?
REPORTER: China meeting? Would you do that here?
TRUMP: I tell people all the time, you know, the question is, who's going to have the first meeting? Where are you going to go? I say this to Putin, to President Xi, I say to everybody, never bothered me. You know, I'm willing to say I'll go first. It doesn't matter.
It's the end result that counts. So it doesn't make any difference.
REPORTER: Do you want to have a conversation about global defense spending? You, China?
TRUMP: I'd like to have that. As soon as things settle down, I'm going to have that conference primarily with China and Russia, because those are the two that that really are out there. And we're going to have them spend a lot less money, and we're going to spend a lot less money.
And I know they're going to do it. They agreed to it. We were talking about denuking, denuclearize, denuking. And, President Putin and I agreed that we were going to do it in a very big way.
There's no reason for us to be building brand new nuclear weapons. We already have so many you could destroy the world 50 times over, 100 times over. And here we are building new nuclear weapons, and they're building nuclear weapons, and China is building new nuclear weapons, and China is trying to catch up because, you know, they're -- they're very substantially behind. But within 5 or 6 years, they'll be even.
And we're all spending a lot of money that we could be spending on other things that are actually, hopefully, much more productive. Hopefully they'll never be a time when we need those weapons. If there's ever a time when we need nuclear weapons, like the kind of weapons that we're building and that Russia has, and that China has to a lesser extent, but will have, that's going to be a very sad day. That's going to be probably oblivion.
REPORTER: Do you see that as separate conversations? Or do you see one giant summit with you, Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin?
TRUMP: Yeah, I could see that. Let things calm down a little bit.
You know, when I left, we had no Middle East problem. We had no Russia going into Ukraine.
[15:15:01]
They never would have done it. Putin never would have done it. And I came back and we got like, the whole world is blowing up.
So when we straighten it all out, then I want to have one of the first meetings I want to have is with President Xi of China, President Putin of Russia. And I want to say, let's cut our military budget in half and we can do that. I think we -- and I think well be able to do it.
REPORTER: Elon Musk identifies wasteful spending in the Defense Department, defense contractors and the like. Are you willing to go after that spending as well? That's been --
TRUMP: Well, we're going to have to go -- we have to go waste, fraud and abuse. Yeah. And we're doing that.
REPORTER: You know, I'm just wondering about your conversations on defense spending. Would you want to do that as a trilateral, or would you use the existing body that also already includes China and Russia, the G20?
TRUMP: No, it's the people. It's President Putin, President Xi, I don't need bodies. I don't need anything. It's people. It's all about people. It's about relationship and people.
And, you know, I've had a good relationship with President Putin. I've had a good relationship with President Xi. It's about people. And I think when things straighten out, which I hope will be in the
not too distant future, the meeting I want to have first is a meeting with China and a meeting with Russia on slowing down, stopping and reducing nuclear weapons in particular, and also on not having to spend the kind of money were all spending on weapons, military weapons generally.
REPORTER: I think my question is, would you have those meetings separately with each of those leaders, or would you try to bring them all together?
TRUMP: Both. You start off separately, and that's what was happening. I was dealing with President Putin. We had really an understanding where we were going to denuclearize.
What a beautiful term that is, right? Denuclearize. What a great thing. If we could do that and we were going to -- he really liked the idea and so did I.
And we had then called China. And China was very open to it. And then COVID hit and then we had a rigged election. But now there was no rigged election. Now, we have an election that was too big to rig. That's what my whole theme was too big to rig. And they tried, but they didn't pull it off.
REPORTER: As part of the reciprocal tariffs. Would you also direct agencies to study the impact they would have on prices in the U.S.?
TRUMP: No, there's nothing to study. There's nothing to study. Its going to go well, you know, the United States is going to become a very, very strong economic -- economically country.
Yeah?
REPORTER: Mr. President, in the past, you have spoken against BRICS. India is part of BRICS. Do you want to dismantle BRICS or you want to you want to be part --
TRUMP: I don't care, but BRICS is -- was put there for a bad purpose. And most of those people don't want it. They don't even want to talk about it now. They're afraid to talk about it because I told them, if they want to play games with the dollar, then they're going to be hit with a 100 percent tariff. The day they mention that they want to do it, and they will come back and say, we beg you, we beg you not to do this.
BRICS is dead since I mentioned that. BRICS died the minute I mentioned that, and I know, I remember when Obama and Biden in particular, I guess he said that, oh, they have us over a barrel. They don't have us over a barrel. We have them over a barrel.
If BRICS wants to play games, those countries won't trade with us. We won't trade with them. And if any trading gets through, it will be 100 percent tariff, at least.
REPORTER: On your cabinet, sir -- TRUMP: You know what? When they hear that, what do you think they're
going to do? They're going to say, look what happened to BRICS. They don't even want to talk about it. They don't -- they don't even want to admit that they were a member of BRICS. That's what's happened.
REPORTER: On your cabinet, sir. We saw Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. get confirmed. He's going to come in here and be sworn in. Mitch McConnell has now voted against several of your nominees. He voted against RFK, Jr. as the next health secretary, citing conspiracy theories.
What's your reaction to that?
TRUMP: Well, I feel sorry for Mitch, and I was one of the people that let -- he couldn't -- he wanted to go to the end and he wanted to stay leader. He wasn't. He's not equipped mentally. He wasn't equipped ten years ago, mentally, in my opinion. He let the Republican Party go to hell.
If I didn't come along, the Republican Party wouldn't even exist right now. Mitch McConnell never really had it. He had an ability to raise money because of his position as leader, which anybody could do. You could do it even. And that's saying a lot.
But the fact is that he raised money and he gave a lot of money to senators. And so he had a little loyalty based on the fact that as leader, you can raise a lot of money. Senators would call me and they say he wants to give me 20, 25 million. Can I take it? I'd say take the money, take the money.
But he -- so he engendered a certain amount of -- I don't even call it loyalty. You know, I was able to get votes, but, I was the one that got him to drop out of the leadership position. So he can't love me. But he's not voting against Bobby. He's voting against me.
But that's all right. He endorsed me. You know, Mitch, do you know that Mitch endorsed me, right?
REPORTER: Well, he did.
[15:20:00]
TRUMP: You think that was easy? What?
REPORTER: He had polio, obviously. And --
TRUMP: I don't know -- I don't know anything about he had polio. He had polio. And --
REPORTER: Are you doubting that he had polio?
TRUMP: I have no idea if he had polio. All I can tell you about him is that he shouldn't have been a leader. He knows that. He voted against bobby. He voted against almost everything now.
He's a -- you know, very bitter guy. And, we have a very strong party, and he's almost not even really a very powerful member. I'd say he's not a power -- he's lost his power. And it's affected his vote. And, you know, its one of those things.
But in the meantime, Bobby did great, got more votes than anybody thought. And I think he's going to do phenomenally, just phenomenally in that position. And everybody else likewise did well. Not only well, they got more votes than anybody thought.
Tulsi, look at how she did. She did great.
Marco got 99 votes. How about that? And Marco got -- Marco got 99 votes.
And Marco, by the way, I have to tell you, Marco Rubio has done a fantastic job. He's been a great secretary of state. They're all doing great.
But we're going to have a swearing in today and maybe we're going to have a second one, because I hear we have a couple of them coming up. And the man behind me is doing a fantastic job, secretary of commerce.
And I think you're going to see something very big come from -- from today's signing. There's going to be a very important signing. Okay?
REPORTER: On U.S. Steel, can I ask very quickly? You said you'd meet with the head of that company and the Japanese company.
TRUMP: Yeah, U.S. Steel is going to be here. And a lot of -- a lot of the steel companies are coming. I think steel companies, they love what's happening to them. We save it.
If I didn't do the tariffs from my first term, you wouldn't have one steel company here. You wouldn't have one steel. There wouldn't be a steel company alive in the United States.
And right now, they're going to be thriving. They're doing very well, but they're going to be thriving. They're going to be coming out. People are going to want to buy those steel companies like crazy.
REPORTER: Are you still planning to mediate talks between Nippon Steel and U.S. Steel?
TRUMP: Yeah, I don't know. I think U.S. Steel right now has all the power. The tariffs have given U.S. Steel a new lease on life. Okay?
Thank you all very much. Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank, guys.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, guys. Thank you. Let's go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's go guys quickly.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
ISABEL ROSALES, CNN HOST: I'm Isabel Rosales. Thanks so much for joining me on CNN NEWSROOM. We have been listening in on President Trump as he's taking in
questions from reporters right there in the Oval Office. Just a short time ago, he announced plans for a new round of reciprocal tariffs. He took questions on that policy, as well as a host of other topics, including the war in Ukraine. He said it was a mistake for the G-7 to remove Russian President Vladimir Putin, which happened after Putin illegally annexed Crimea.
He also addressed his upcoming meeting with the Indian prime minister, Elon Musk's role and other issues.
I want to bring in CNN senior White House reporter, Kevin Liptak.
He's, of course, been following all of these comments from Trump.
Kevin, what stood out to you?
KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yeah, just first on those tariffs that the president said he was now asking his team to -- excuse me as well -- to look into the president, sort of laying out his rationale for applying what he calls these reciprocal tariffs.
But I do think it's important to note that the president did not actually apply any new tariffs today through this signing. He is asking his team to look into tariff rates on countries that apply tariffs on American goods. And he was sort of, you know, waxed -- expounded on this idea that he had made as a candidate, this promise to sort of realign American trade relationships.
So that was sort of the point of that whole event. But I do think it was his comments about Vladimir Putin and the war in Russia that really stood out. Of course, one day after he spent about 90 minutes on the phone with the Russian president, it's very clear, listening to President Trump there, that he wants the global isolation of Russia to come to an end. And he said very significantly that he does want Russia to be readmitted into the G7. As you said, Russia was ousted from what was then the G8 after annexed Crimea back in 2014.
This is an idea that the president first raised during his first term in office. He had some, you know, very argumentative disputes with his fellow G7 leaders over this very idea, including at a G7 summit on the French coast in Biarritz. It's an argumentative discussion among the leaders then, who were almost uniformly opposed to this idea.
Of course, since then, Russia has now launched a full scale invasion of Ukraine. The G7 has acted as something of a steering committee to rally western support for Kyiv.
[15:25:01]
But now Trump says that he thinks having Putin around that table could be valuable, as he works to try and bring that war to an end. So, a very significant comment from the president there.
He also talked about his desire to meet with China's President Xi Jinping, potentially gathering both Xi and Putin around a table to talk about denuclearization, trying to reduce all three of those countries nuclear stockpiles. So significant comments there.
I thought it was interesting as well, when our colleague Kaitlan Collins asked the president about Mitch McConnell, who has of late become sort of an antagonist of President Trump's up on Capitol Hill. He's voted against two of his nominees, Tulsi Gabbard for the director of national intelligence. And just earlier today, he voted against Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. to be President Trump's health secretary.
He was the only Republican to vote against those nominees, something of an unlikely antagonist for the former Republican leader in the Senate. President Trump, very harsh words against McConnell, saying that he didn't have the aptitude to be the Republican leader, even back when he was serving in that role, even questioning the idea of whether he had suffered childhood polio, which has been sort of an animating feature of his opposition to Kennedy because of Kennedy's skepticism about vaccines. So interesting moment there.
A lot to hear from the president there. But I should note, this is only the first time that we'll hear from him today. He's also sitting down later this afternoon with the Indian prime minister, Narendra Modi, and they're scheduled to hold a formal press conference in the East Room late this afternoon.
ROSALES: Yeah. We saw that fiery statement from Mitch McConnell earlier saying he will not relitigate the efficacy of vaccines, something he calls a miracle, a scientific miracle.
Kevin Liptak, thank you for your time.
All right. For more now on Trump's plans for a new round of tariffs. I want to bring in CNN business editor at large, Richard Quest.
Richard, we need you to make sense of all of this. What do you make so far about what's been unveiled? He's essentially doubling down, announcing plans for a round of sweeping new reciprocal tariffs. But they don't have an immediate efficacy date.
RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS EDITOR AT LARGE: I think the important thing to understand about what he's announced today is that this is the big thing. This is the big idea. He said as much, the president said as much. This is what he'd always wanted to do in administration one, but COVID happened and he was unable to do so. And the significance of what he's doing now is not tinkering around with tit for tat and fentanyl and bashing around. This is designed to fundamentally change what we call the terms of trade for the United States vis-a-vis its trading partners.
And if you look at the scope, I've got -- I've got the executive order here, it's not only going to hit in terms of tariffs, its going to be taxes, VATs and the like. It's going to be non-tariff barriers, unfair and harmful exchange rates that deviate from norms, unfair limitations on markets. So what they're going to do here and, you know, it's a very sophisticated plan. This is not the equivalent of the 30 percent tariff on Mexico and Canada that we saw a couple of weeks ago.
This is saying, right, all of you go away, look at each country that we trade with. Work out in each sector those tariffs, unfair trading issues against the United States. And we will do the same for them.
And then come back, we'll talk about it. We'll implement it. So I think it's very different. It gives the countries involved opportunities and times to redress the balance back to the United States. Of course, what it doesn't do and we can talk about this maybe if you want, is it doesn't account for why some countries do put tariffs on because they're poorer and they need the money.
ROSALES: Well, we just learned yesterday, Richard, about the inflation rate here in the U.S. heating up to 3 percent, something we haven't seen since last summer.
QUEST: Yeah, yeah.
ROSALES: Is this the appropriate time to be making a big announcement like this about tariffs?
QUEST: Well, good question, excellent question. Probably not, because what it will mean -- so let's just think about how the tariff works. Here is my pen my very nice pen. Now it is imported lets say from Italy. And the company in the United States that imports it has to pay a tariff on it. Okay?
The company that imports this pen pays a tariff to the U.S. treasury. It may be 10 percent, maybe 20 percent, but that money goes to the treasury. Now the importer is selling it in supermarkets and department stores. What do they do? Do they charge that tariff to me, or do they eat it out of their own profits?
[15:30:04]
What do they do?
And that's why they are inherently inflationary. My gut is that what the U.S. is hoping and what the president is hoping is that once other countries realize inflationary.
My gut is that what the U.S. is hoping and what the president is hoping is that once other countries realize that the pen is going to be tariffed, then they will reduce the tariffs for U.S. exporters. In other words, you like this at the moment and what Donald Trump wants to do is this, what he's hoping is it goes like this.
And I think that's a truly laudable goal. It's certainly going to cause enormous difficulties with those countries that do not like free markets or are protectionist. I do not see. Let me be clear. I do not see these reciprocal tariffs as being protectionist in the same way as we would have had, say, for example, the Canada of Mexico ones. There's rationale behind them. It's not always good rationale, I'll grant you, but there is reason and rhyme.
ROSALES: Right, making trade more fair doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with reducing inflation. Richard --
QUEST: When you look at the countries, so you've started -- you've started me off on that. ROSALES: I got you started over with.
QUEST: If you look at those countries that do have very high tariffs, some of them -- you did -- well, some of them in Southeast Asia, India. Well, not India so much, developing Africa, the Caribbean, they have large tariffs because they need to protect home markets and they need to raise revenue. So that's why they do it.
If the administration's policy allows for a bit of that, then I think it will be fair. But I can see why for major E.U. countries, it's -- it's the right policy from the U.S. point of view.
ROSALES: Duly noted. Richard, thank you.
And if you want more of Richard's analysis, you don't have to wait long because "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is on right after us.
Richard, thanks.
Well, alarm bells are ringing across Europe and Ukraine for a second day as leaders scramble to respond to President Trump's announcement that talks to end the war in Ukraine will begin immediately. Trump's announcement and his 90 minute call with Putin have sparked fears that they may be doing a dirty deal to end the war without involving Ukraine. But moments ago, you heard it right there in the Oval Office, Trump said he will give Ukraine a seat at the table.
The conflict was front and center as NATO members meet in Brussels ahead of the Munich Security Conference this weekend.
Here to discuss this is Max Seddon. He is the Moscow bureau chief for "The Financial Times".
And, Max, thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate your perspective on this important conversation.
President Trump, we heard him say that Ukraine will have a seat at the table in any negotiations with Russia. What do you think of that comment? How do you think its going to be received in Moscow?
MAX SEDDON, MOSCOW BUREAU CHIEF, FINANCIAL TIMES: Well, really, what he's talking about is, is the kids table, is the role based on what Trump and what the Kremlin today have said about Ukraine's negotiations or any role they can play in that. This is really taking a back seat to what both -- both sides have clearly defined as the main action, which is negotiations between two great powers, the United States and Russia.
And Trump has very much saying things that are music to Russia's ears, because all -- all through this war, you know, they have refused to acknowledge that, you know, Ukraine has -- has any agency. Putin doesn't really believe that Ukraine is an independent state. He believes that it's a tool of the U.S. and its European allies that is being used to weaken to attack Russia.
And this -- this is what he's -- he's wanted the U.S. to say all throughout his, his invasion of Ukraine is that, you know, we the big boys are going to sort it out and Ukraine and the European allies are just going to have to deal with -- with the consequences. It's a very, very much something that, you know, even if, even if Ukraine is involved at some point, the fact that this was all done without any, any foreknowledge by -- by Ukraine or by Ukraine's European allies really shows you that he doesn't think of them in the same primary way as the Biden administration did, where they had the maxim nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine.
ROSALES: And also music to Putin's ears. We heard Trump say that he trusts him. And when he says that he wants peace in this war and that he'd like to see Putin back in the G7. What does -- what does Ukraine do with that? What sort of leverage do they have? And should he -- should Putin be allowed back in the G7?
SEDDON: I think, certainly, you know, there -- there are arguments to be made for engagement, you know, as something that you never want to, you know, to close off your, your options, when you're trying to end a conflict, but closing off options is exactly what Trump and Pete Hegseth, the defense secretary, did yesterday because they basically ceded all of the negotiating positions that Ukraine's allies had by ruling out Ukraine, becoming a member of NATO, by ruling out Ukraine getting control over the territory it lost to Russia.
[15:35:11]
Yes. You know, neither of those things are going to happen anytime soon. But Russia has kept a very hard line, maximalist position all the way throughout this -- this war. They -- they say they want Ukraine to recognize its annexation of territory, including territory that Russia doesn't even control. They would have to give to give Russia more territory, and Ukraine would essentially have to consent to be -- so weakened that it would not really be a viable state.
And Russia would, would either be able to conquer it later if it felt like it or just -- just watch it, it collapse and have Ukraine fall into its hands. So the real -- real power that Ukraine has is that, you know, it is it is still holding out. It still has support from Europe, and it does still have the ability to say no.
You know, there's a point where, you know, even if Ukraine is in a very difficult position without U.S. support, there -- there are, you know, some -- some things, that are on Russia's ask list, that are just completely unpalatable for Zelenskyy or for any other Ukrainian leader that -- that could succeed him. And Ukraine is going to have to try to stand its ground very, very forcefully here. But it's going to be very difficult.
ROSALES: Very tough without potentially the U.S. to help out diplomatically and through the military.
Now, Trump said that negotiations to end the conflict will begin, quote, immediately, and that he plans to meet with Putin in Saudi Arabia soon.
Do you have any sense of when the timing of this potential deal could happen and why Saudi Arabia, what's the message there?
SEDDON: So, so Saudi Arabia, we saw Steven Witkoff, Trump's envoy for -- a special envoy for the Middle East, who's also taken a role in these negotiations with Russia. He said that Saudi Arabia played -- played an important mediating role in helping secure the release of Marc Fogel, the American schoolteacher who had spent nearly four years in Russian prison. And, they're -- they're not the only Middle Eastern country that has at various points during the war, been an important intermediary for aspects of humanitarian negotiations, getting -- getting children reunited with their families, prisoner exchanges, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Turkey have also been -- been important.
And, Saudi Arabia is the channel that based on this seems to be working the best. But firstly, you know, we you know, the Kremlin has said it's going to be weeks or months before Putin and Trump meet. And secondly, I don't think that that we can discount that despite this very clear desire by Trump to do a deal and, the seeming eagerness to do it almost on Putin's terms, that doesn't mean that one is necessarily going to happen. I think he's going to find out that he's going to need more buy in from Ukraine and from European countries than -- than he might realize. It's not going to be that easy to present everyone with a fait accompli and go off to collect his Nobel Peace Prize that he wants.
And Russia -- I think if they don't get everything that they want, there -- there are a lot of indications that they will be perfectly happy to just keep going with the war because they -- they are very slowly winning it. And they -- they can keep this going for, for some time still. So, so we will have to wait to see, you know, when the first meetings are between the delegations.
You know, Trump has appointed -- he's appointed negotiators on his side. But again, remember, this is all very, very fluid. You know, it was only a couple months ago that that Trump appointed General Keith Kellogg to be his special negotiator for the Russia-Ukraine conflict. And we -- we saw yesterday that he's now not even part of the negotiating team. And they haven't really explained why.
So this is all very fluid and there are still all number different ways that this could go.
ROSALES: Yeah. The hyper speed of a Trump administration and certainly this right now five alarm fire for Ukraine.
Max Seddon, we'll have to see what happens next. Thank you for your time.
SEDDON: Thanks for having me.
ROSALES: Thanks. We'll be right back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:42:23]
ROSALES: Breaking news on Trump versus USAID. A federal judge just extended a pause on the Trump administration's attempt to dismantle the independent aid agency. Foreign Service officers arguing in court today that the president lacks the authority to eliminate USAID, and that the move deeply harms workers, including in conflict zones and overseas.
Let's go now to CNN justice correspondent Katelyn Polantz. She was right there in the courtroom.
Katelyn, what did the judge say?
KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: The judge said, everyone take a breather because he wasn't ready to make a decision that indefinitely either allows the Trump administration to dismantle USAID and all of that foreign aid work that's being done or says, no, you cant do that, and reverses what the Trump administration wants to do.
So there's about 60 lawsuits right now of people challenging policies of the Trump administration, efforts to curtail agencies, efforts to cut off funding. And a lot of those questions are meeting in court right now in this very big case in the district court in Washington, D.C. So this is the case where unions and employees of USAID, both in the U.S. and abroad.
There's about 4,000 of them who are full time direct employees of this foreign aid agency. They're suing to say that it is hurting them very, very badly to have been put on leave so suddenly. That put people's lives at risk who were working for USAID abroad.
And the judge said today in court, he heard a lot of different arguments from both sides. He asked a lot of questions of the Justice Department lawyers, who at times didn't have that many answers of exactly how this unwinding would go and what the next plans were for the Trump administration. But he asked these questions and said he's probably going to have a decision that is more firm by next Friday.
And Isabel, one of the things that was so remarkable about this hearing is not only does it grapple with these major legal questions of the power of this president, but it also affects a lot of people, thousands of them, that work for this federal agency, many of whom not thousands, but dozens who came to court today and in person sat to listen to these hearings. I talked to several of them. Some were contractors.
One was a doctor who works for USAID. He works in infant health, and he was in Ethiopia until January 28th, when the government essentially shut off all the funding. And his position at USAID until this judge stepped in.
Here's that doctor, Troy Jacobs, a little bit earlier.
[15:45:03]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TROY JACOBS, USAID PEDIATRICIAN: A lot of what we've been doing over the years is built on trust, which the judge was talking about. And the thing is that trust can be damaged very quickly. And that type of harm is really hard to -- to fix. And I was already seeing that during the time that I was there in Ethiopia just two weeks ago.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLANTZ: So, much of the question now, Isabel, is how much harm? Is there enough here in court legally to convince the judge to stop what the Trump administration wants to do with this agency? How does it affect the people who works, who work for the agency? And is there enough that the U.S. government is doing to try and protect people, especially in high risk areas abroad like Ethiopia or like Congo, where several people had to flee as they were working with USAID over the past couple of weeks.
ROSALES: Yeah. Next Friday, a critical date.
Katelyn Polantz, thank you for your time.
Well, the Trump administration today is firing scores of federal employees, including at the Small Business Administration and the Department of Education, among other agencies. These are not federal buyouts. They are terminations, but they come after a federal judge late yesterday lifted the freeze on those massive buyout offers, ruling the unions who filed the case didn't have legal standing to sue.
CNN's Rene Marsh has been on the story from day one, and she has an update for us.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RENE MARSH, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is a new phase as the Trump administration and Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency aimed to dramatically shrink the federal workforce. Until now, federal employees across all government agencies had only been placed on paid administrative leave.
Now, CNN obtained a form letter sent to dozens of employees at the department of education and it states, quote, the agency finds based on your performance that you have not demonstrated that your further employment at the agency would be in the public interest.
Now, letters similar to the Department of Education's notice of termination were sent to employees at the Small Business Administration on Tuesday. Now, the full scale of the firings at the agency remains unclear, but we should note that employees at the Small Business Administration received an unsigned draft letter of termination on Friday and some also on Monday.
But then, later Monday, the agency sent another email advising that -- that draft had gone out in error. But then the next day, according to the union representing employees, real letters of termination were sent to employees. We should note that the firings come as a federal judge yesterday allowed the administration's deferred resignation program to proceed, and so far, about 75,000 employees have accepted the Trump administration's buyout offer, which promises if employees resign, they would be paid through the end of September.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROSALES: Rene Marsh, thank you for that.
Well, coming up, why a site once considered the future of solar energy is now shutting down. What the move could mean for the industry.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:52:43]
ROSALES: Welcome back.
It was once considered the future of solar energy, a massive field of mirrors in the middle of the Mojave Desert. Now, the owners of the project have announced it's closing after just over a decade in operation. Back when it opened in 2014, the technology was hailed as a potentially breakthrough form of clean energy.
But over the years, it's not only proved expensive, but technologically challenging. CNN's chief climate correspondent Bill Weir explains.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, if you have ever driven across the Mojave Desert between Los Angeles and Las Vegas, you can't miss this otherworldly array. It looks like something out of "Dune" or science fiction. Hundreds of thousands of heliostat mirrors, all aimed at three towers glowing when they're operational,
the size are actually bigger than the Statue of Liberty.
When this thing opened in 2014, the Ivanpah concentrated solar array was one of these sort of state of the art ideas. They thought could replace fossil fuels, which, of course, are polluting and overheating the planet. But in hindsight, the design wasn't the best. No one at that time could have imagined that the price of solar voltaic or photovoltaic panels would come down to be so relatively dirt cheap, which convert sunlight into electricity directly without having to heat up big giant towers with liquid, which is the case at Ivanpah. The mirrors were hard to deal with. Birds would burst into flames actually flying through that concentrated heat. It was a risk to the endangered desert tortoise.
So a lot of environmentalists, even those in favor of alternative energy, oppose this. From the start, there was a $1.6 billion federal loan that went into this. And now the two utilities which basically promised to buy energy from this place for a long time, are winding down those contracts. No word on what will happen to this place.
But the big picture is kind of like the evolution of the automobile. There are some real duds, some real lemons, the Ford Pinto bursting into flames, the Edsel. But it didn't stop the momentum of that form of transportation. No one was going back to horses, despite those anomalies. And as a result, right now, solar worldwide is just exploding. It is
the cheapest form of energy solar plus storage around the world.
[15:55:01]
Almost 90 percent of new capacity in United States last year was renewable, most of it solar, a lot of wind. Geothermal is coming on as well as hydroelectric as alternatives to fossil fuels as well.
But of course, in the age of Donald Trump was vowing to basically blow up all sorts of alternative energy in favor of fossil fuels, who knows? There is predictions that the solar growth would slow a bit in 2025, but last year set new records. First year that both solar and wind eclipsed coal as a main source of electricity in the United States.
Bill Weir, CNN, New York, back to you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROSALES: Absolutely fascinating there. Bill Weir, thank you.
And thank you for joining me today. I'm Isabel Rosales.
Lots to talk about. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.
