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Trump Administration's Purge Of Federal Workforce Escalates; Russia-Ukraine Peace Talks To Start Soon In Saudi Arabia; Zelenskyy Warns Days Of Guaranteed U.S. Support For Europe Are Over; McConnell Odd Man Out In New Republican Party; Vaccine Skeptic RFK Jr Becomes Nation's Top Health Official; Major Storm Heads East, Expected To Bring Heavy Rains, Snow. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired February 15, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:01:14]

PAULA REID, CNN HOST: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Paula Reid in Washington. Jessica Dean has the day off.

Confusion, panic and alarm -- these are just some of the emotions being felt across the federal workforce as President Trump continues to test the limits of executive power. The administration, alongside Elon Musk are right now setting their sights on probationary workers attempting to terminate thousands across several agencies.

Federal judges pausing some of Trump's sweeping actions in a series of rulings on Friday. The president today claiming on social media that, quote, "He who saves his country does not violate any law."

We'll have more on that in a moment.

But first, we're joined by CNN correspondent Rafael Romo. Rafael, you've been following the latest on these mass layoffs. What have you learned?

RAFAEL ROMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey Paula, there's a lot of fear and anxiety, especially given what one CDC employee, who would like to remain unidentified for obvious reasons, told me on Friday that this may only be the beginning of the cuts that may be deep and widespread.

At the CDC alone, about 1,300 employees could lose their jobs. According to a CNN source, one of those departments is a unit that has investigated public health threats here in the U.S. and abroad, including COVID-19.

We have also learned that at least one member of Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency visited the Internal Revenue Service offices in Washington on Thursday as part of his mission to downsize government agencies.

And there's more, Paula. Trump administration officials fired more than 300 staffers Thursday night at the National Nuclear Security Administration, the agency tasked with managing the nation's nuclear stockpile.

Although CNN's Rene Marsh reported later the terminations were rescinded after the full scope of their mission became clear.

Earlier today, I spoke with a federal employee in California who has already received the fork-in-the-road e-mail and is afraid that it's only a matter of time before many people like her are terminated.

This is what she told us about the mood at her agency, making sure to specify that she is talking to us in a personal capacity and not on behalf of any agency or union.

Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

M.T. SNYDER, FEDERAL EMPLOYEE: I'm waking up every day with a pit in my stomach wondering if I'm going to lose my job, if I'll lose my livelihood, if my coworkers will too, and also if our agency will even exist.

Because that's what Musk is trying to do. He's trying to stop the services that federal workers and their agencies provide to the American public.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROMO: And Paula, on Thursday, Elon Musk defended his actions by saying that, quote, "The people voted for major government reform, and that's what people are going to get."

We've also heard from Georgia Senator Jon Ossoff, reacting to the layoffs at the CDC. Ossoff said the following. "President Trump's indefensible, indiscriminate firing of more than 1,000 CDC personnel in a single day leaves Americans exposed to disease and devastates careers and livelihoods for the world's most talented doctors and scientists, many of them here in Georgia."

But again, Paula, a lot of people very nervous and afraid right now here at the CDC.

Now back to you.

REID: Rafael Romo, thank you.

And the independent agency tasked with enforcing labor laws has been essentially shut down after President Trump fired one of its board members.

[17:04:46]

REID: The National Labor Relations Board oversees elections to form unions, as well as investigating complaints of unfair labor practices.

The board is comprised of five members. However, two of the seats are vacant due to expired term limits. But Trump took the unprecedented step of firing a third board member, making the board unable to form a quorum to make decisions.

Joining us now is a member of the Army Corps of Engineers and president of Local 98 of the International Federation of Professional and Technical Engineers, Chris Dols. Chris, thank you for joining us.

I want to first ask you, what impact does it have on unions not having a functioning NLRB?

CHRIS DOLS, PRESIDENT, LOCAL 98, INTERNATIONAL FEDERATION OF PROFESSIONAL AND TECHNICAL ENGINEERS: Well, as a federal union officer, we rely on the services of the Federal Labor Relations Authority and the attacks on that agency have already begun.

But the attacks on the NLRB, which are part and parcel of the same attacks, are going to affect all private sector workers.

So the vast majority of American workers are now going to have degraded legal rights in their workplaces. Their rights to form a union are going to be weaker than perhaps ever since the NLRA was first passed. It's really devastating for all American workers.

REID: We've been seeing, of course, the Trump administration, they're cutting jobs across many federal agencies. Once they're done with all the cutting, how do you expect them to backfill these positions so that at least essential services are carried out? Obviously, not every job is going to be filled.

DOLS: I need to say, just because you mentioned my affiliation with the Army Corps of Engineers, and these days, we have to be very careful to say that I'm required by law to make it clear that I'm speaking only for myself and that my views aren't necessarily those of the agency.

And more importantly, I'm not here just because I'm an employee of the Army Corps of Engineers. I'm also here because I'm part of a growing national network of federal workers who are fighting back against these attacks.

Now, how will they backfill our positions? I don't think they have any intention of backfilling our positions. I think they're trying to deepen a crisis that already exists, which is the funding crisis that our public services aren't sufficiently supported already.

Federal workers are overworked as is. They're trying to deepen that crisis to justify further privatization.

You look at Elon Musk, who is, of course, the architect and executioner here. He's already benefiting from more than $18 billion in federal contracts over the last ten years. And he calls recipients of federal aid "parasites". Elon Musk is the parasite here.

REID: So you got this buyout offer, went to 2 million people. What did -- what did you make of it? What was your reaction?

The first thing I did was I reached out to other federal workers who I've been working with for the last couple of years to make our union stronger, to protect federal workers' rights.

And what I found was that everybody was so insulted. We learned, of course, quickly that Twitter employees who received the same buyout didn't get the pay. That what we're dealing with here are con men.

And we educated our members everywhere we could that this is a scam. We need to hold the line and protect the government that they're trying to break up, because our services are so critical.

In my corner of the government, we do dredging to maintain shipping channels so the economy can work. We build and maintain floodwalls and levees to protect American homes and communities.

We were the folks who built the emergency hospitals at the beginning of the COVID pandemic.

So really, our work touches everything from the economy as a whole to your local communities and your personal health and moments of public health crises.

So, you know, for the people who are trying to purge the government, you know, we're trying to hold the line because it's those of us who have committed our careers to the public service that are going to keep it going if we can stop these attacks.

REID: All right. Chris Dols, thank you.

DOLS: Can I just say that we have -- we this Federal Unionist Network is doing a national day of action next Wednesday, and we're calling on all Americans to come out in support of federal workers.

And folks should go to Go Save Our Service -- I'm sorry -- Go.SavePublicServices.com to get involved in your local communities to defend not only us federal workers, but the whole American public that's under attack by Trump and Musk.

It's Go.SavePublicServices.com to get involved.

REID: All right. Chris thank you.

And meanwhile a win for Elon Musk and DOGE who are wasting no time in their efforts to overhaul the federal government as a federal judge ruled DOGE can keep its access to data at the Department of Labor and other agencies, rejecting labor unions' attempt to shut down that access.

But a judge has barred Musk and DOGE from accessing Treasury data for now.

Joining us now, CNN senior legal analyst and former state federal prosecutor Elie Honig and CNN senior political analyst Ron Brownstein.

Elie, I want to start with you.

Elon and DOGE, they are temporarily blocked from accessing this Treasury data. Do you think that the judge will make this hold permanent?

[17:09:52]

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Paula, there has been a bit of a sea change happening over the last several days, which is this. In the beginning, virtually all of these lawsuits challenging Donald Trump's efforts and Elon Musk's efforts to downsize the government were successful. Basically, all of the courts to hear these cases at least put temporary holds on the Trump administration.

But slowly, including over the last two, three days, we have seen some of those holds come off. We've seen courts start to rule in favor in some cases of Trump and Elon Musk.

And the reason, broadly speaking, is it's not the case that federal employees have some sacrosanct perpetual right to remain employed forever. Or -- and it's also not the case that Elon Musk has zero ability to access information.

If he's been someone who is appointed by the president to do a certain job with certain restraints, he can access certain information.

So we're starting to see the tide turn right now. A judge, for example, has declined to put the buyout plan on hold. Another judge just yesterday, a Democratic-appointed judge, Judge Reyes, forcefully rejected an effort by the -- by the fired inspector general to get their jobs back.

So it's not quite as simple as well, these people are entitled to jobs and they do good work. And I think more and more of the courts are slowly coming around to Donald Trump's position on these cases.

REID: You know, Ron, I think what's interesting about the access to Treasury data is this has people worked up, right, because this is also how federal employees are paid, Social Security, disability.

And Musk and Trump don't really seem moved by court losses necessarily. But do you think that if constituents and the populace gets too worked up about this, do you think political pressure might prompt them to reverse course on this?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well I think, you know, the Treasury data also implicates people's privacy and the question of whether, you know, Musk and his minions, the people he's brought in often the case very young coders are going to have access to Americans' personal, financial and maybe health data is, I think, a different political question than the size of the federal workforce.

I'm not sure that the, you know, the public broadly is going to be that unsympathetic to the idea of trimming the federal workforce.

Where I think Musk and Trump run into risk on that front is when -- is whether this is going to threaten basic services. And, you know, if you start severely cutting the federal workforce, Paula, you are really hostage to events. I mean, you cut CDC and there are outbreaks of infectious disease

among kids, you're going to have some political blowback. Or you cut -- you cut food inspection, and there are outbreaks of, you know, e. coli and other problems. You're going to have blowback.

So I'm not sure there's going to be a huge political uprising at the front end. But I think that once you do this, you leave yourself pretty vulnerable to events on the back end.

REID: Elie, I want to get your take on what's happening, talk about an uprising over at DOJ where there's basically a civil war going on inside that building.

You worked at the Justice Department. Obviously, we have the mutiny over dropping the Adams case. Tensions over investigating investigations that have happened over the past few years.

Attorney General Bondi, she's like ten days into the job, presumably Todd Blanche will be confirmed soon.

Do you think there's any way that they can gain back the trust inside the building, or is it just lost at this point?

HONIG: I don't think there's any way they can ever completely win back the trust that's been squandered in the last two, three days.

First of all, I don't know where Pam Bondi is here. She's sort of floating in and out of various news conferences and seems not to even know what's happening in her own department.

Meanwhile, Emil Bove is wreaking absolutely havoc. He's firing people. He's firing off letters that become public, in which he says directly, it's ok to dismiss a case if it furthers the president's political agenda.

This is outrageous stuff. This undermines DOJ's independence. This undermines DOJ's credibility. I know for a fact you don't -- you don't have to be too close to DOJ to be able to tell people are in an uprising there. And that's the people who have come up and quit and issued sort of eloquent public statements to explain why they're quitting.

But it also goes to the hundreds and thousands of rank-and-file people who work there. The last week has wrought incalculable damage on DOJ.

What Pam Bondi needs to do is get control of her own house. She needs to set the priorities of this place. Todd Blanche does too. And not let Emil Bove sort of run the shop on his own, because he's doing a horrific job of that and he's doing real damage.

REID: Yes, Emil Bove, his name has been on the memos, right. The termination memos that -- that were pushing for information about people who worked on January 6th. Obviously, he's had to handle what's going on with the Adams' case.

Ron, do you think Bondi should push him out, make him sort of the scapegoat for everything that has happened and try to start again? Do you think that would help?

[17:14:47]

BROWNSTEIN: I can't see that happening. I mean, you can see the attraction of trying to, you know, finger someone as the scapegoat. But really, what he is doing is advancing the vision that Donald Trump has explicitly laid out where the Justice Department is more kind of a person -- drafted or enlisted or coerced into being an enforcer, punishing his enemies and rewarding his friends.

I mean, the bookend of dropping these charges against Adams, which in any rational world, given the letters from the line prosecutor, from the assistant U.S. attorney in New York, both of whom, with impeccable conservative credentials, that this was a response to a quid pro quo offer from the mayor's defense.

In any rational world, you would have Congress investigating and maybe the judge himself will be asking some pointed questions when he hears, you know, the request to dismiss.

But basically, you know, what you're seeing, I think this case crystallizes is how far Trump wants to go in transforming the administration of justice into a tool to advance his interests and really across a broad, you know, swath of society.

I think from business leaders to Congress to civic leaders, people have to decide whether they are comfortable living in that world because it could come around and bite you in ways that you might not, you know, anticipate today.

But I think the Adams case really crystallizes those choices and maybe in a way that will be easier for the public to grasp than some of the other decisions, like the abandoning, for example, enforcement of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.

REID: Yes. Bitten by his own hand-picked acting U.S. attorney.

Elie Honig, Ron Brownstein -- thank you so much for joining us.

BROWNSTEIN: Thank you.

REID: And coming up, sources telling CNN new details on the president's plan to end Russia's war in Ukraine. What we know about a key meeting set for days from now.

[17:16:44]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REID: We are learning new details surrounding President Trump's plan to end the conflict in Ukraine.

Sources telling CNN top administration officials are set to travel to Saudi Arabia in the coming days for a meeting with senior Russian officials. This as President Trump's special envoy to Russia and Ukraine, General Keith Kellogg, makes clear Europe will not be part of those talks.

CNN's Betsy Klein broke the story. She joins us now from West Palm Beach, Florida with more details. Betsy, what more are you hearing from your sources?

BETSY KLEIN, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE PRODUCER: Well, Paula, just moments after President Trump spoke with Russian President Vladimir Putin earlier this week, he indicated that he wanted talks to end Russia's war in Ukraine to begin quote, "immediately". And to that end, we are seeing President Trump dispatch three of his top officials for discussions with senior level Russian officials in the coming days.

Now, two sources familiar with the matter tell us that Secretary of State Marco Rubio, national security advisor Mike Waltz, and special envoy to the Middle East Steve Witkoff will be heading to Saudi Arabia for those talks with the Russian officials in the coming days, according to one of those sources.

Now, one of the sources, our colleague Matthew Chance, had reported the Kremlin has been assembling a very high-level negotiating team, top political, intelligence and economic officials in Russia to participate in these talks.

And President Trump told reporters that he could also soon meet with Putin himself, saying that that meeting could happen in Saudi Arabia and could happen quote, "in the not-too-distant future".

He also indicated that Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Salman could be part of those discussions. Of course, the crown prince has been a key interlocutor between the U.S. and Russia.

Now, one party that won't be at the negotiating table, according to special envoy to Russia and Ukraine General Keith Kellogg, is the Europeans. Kellogg did say, however, that the Ukrainians, of course, would have a seat at the negotiating table, though it's unclear at what stage the Ukrainians will be brought into this process.

I also want to note new comments from Kellogg, who said that Russia will have to make concessions during these talks. He said that that could take place in the territorial matters, as well as possibly the renunciation of the use of force.

Now, of course, all of this comes after those searing comments from Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskyy earlier today, saying that the role of the U.S. in Russia, in Ukraine and the world is unclear to him.

We are also seeing President Trump dramatically reshape relations with President Putin, Paula.

REID: Betsy Klein, thank you.

And as the U.S. looks to Saudi Arabia for peace talks, the leader of Ukraine is warning Europe is now on its own.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: The old days are over when America supported Europe just because it always had.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: CNN chief international anchor Christiane Amanpour spoke to Zelenskyy at the Munich Security Conference earlier today, where she asked him about Ukraine's future as the U.S. alliance with Europe begins to shift.

Here's some of that conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Mr. President, Trump was asked whether he trusted Putin, and he sort of basically ended up saying, "On this, I do."

[17:24:51]

AMANPOUR: But he has also said that -- and frankly, it's quite difficult to extract what all the different administration officials have been saying.

On the one hand, potentially, that, you know, maybe Ukraine had a responsibility for this war. Maybe Ukraine can't ever expect to get back -- it's unrealistic, according to the Defense secretary -- its territory.

Maybe Ukraine will be safe and independent. Maybe it will be part of Russia. Do you understand what Americas position is?

ZELENSKYY: Yes.

AMANPOUR: Which is?

ZELENSKYY: I think, to my mind, they are preparing atmosphere for their dialog.

AMANPOUR: for their dialog, which will be --

ZELENSKYY: For the dialog between Trump and Putin. And I think this is -- I mean, this -- it's up to them. But they can discuss everything they want, but not about Ukraine without us.

And that's why in this case -- that's why, especially in this case, I think it's a little bit dangerous. That's why I said that we need to talk more with the president and to talk more with his people, with his teams.

And yesterday, as you said, yes, we had -- we had good conversations. And I think that I opened some new details for vice president. That's why I said we meet it's not waste of time. It's really very important, I think, diplomatic investment for the future, just and lasting peace for Ukraine. AMANPOUR: You said Putin doesn't want peace. I mean, you just said it

loud and clear.

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: So what is the dialog? And have you convinced the Americans that a, Ukraine has to be at the table and b, I guess the Europeans have to convince them. But did you get a commitment from President Trump that you would meet with him first? Do you have a plan to meet with the president?

ZELENSKYY: No, we have our plan, of course. It's our country. And that's why it's our plan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[17:26:53]

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[17:31:19]

REID: From leader of the party to odd man out. Senator Mitch McConnell is not holding back in the final stage of his career, choosing to cast a trio of votes against the president's cabinet picks, including RFK Jr, Tulsi Gabbard and Pete Hegseth.

CNN's senior data reporter, Harry Enten, joins us now to run the numbers on McConnell's legacy.

All right, Harry, look, Mitch, he's a complicated guy, a complicated legacy. What's the chance that he's going to become some kind of folk hero here?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Yes, I would note that Mitch McConnell isn't the only complicated guy in this world. Some might say I'm a complicated guy. But we'll leave that to the side and we'll just talk a little bit about Mitch McConnell and the chance he's going to become a folk hero.

It ain't going to likely happen. It ain't going to likely happen. Because I want you to look at his net approval ratings. He is underwater with everybody. He has got the ultimate or might say -- some might say sad trifecta of being underwater.

Overall, minus 39 points, 39 percentage points. More of the electorate disapproves than approves of the job that he has done.

How about Democrats? He's 58 points underwater. My goodness gracious. The chance that, all of a sudden, just because he cast three votes against Trump, that he'd somehow become a folk hero with them is absolutely, frankly, insane.

And then with Republicans, of course, he's gone up against Trump before, and that's why he's 17 points underwater for Republicans. When you're underwater with Democrats, Republicans, and overall, the

chance that you're going to become a folk hero, it seems rather low to me -- Paula?

(LAUGHTER)

REID: It does, indeed.

All right. Of course, the next question is, how does his popularity compare with that of President Trump?

ENTEN: Yes. So, you know, I think Donald Trump will like these numbers. All right. So let's take a look. This is the net approval rating I got overall. And I got with Republicans.

Look how much higher Donald Trump is overall versus Mitch McConnell. Look at that. Trump is on the positive side of the ledger at plus three. Mitch McConnell, of course, underwater overall at minus 39.

So Trump is 42 points higher than Mitch McConnell is overall among Republicans. Of course, Donald Trump very popular there with a plus 82 point net approval rating. Of course, Mitch McConnell again underwater at minus 17.

So you do the math quickly here, 82 -17, that is nearly 100 points higher that Donald Trump is net approval rating wise with Republicans than Mitch McConnell is.

The bottom line is that when it comes to the popularity battle, Donald Trump comes out way, way, way ahead of Mitch McConnell.

REID: OK, OK. But is this just a problem with majority leaders? Is this like a heavy is the head situation? I mean, put this into historical context. Where does he stack up against other majority leaders?

ENTEN: Yes, I always like going through the history books. Right? I have spreadsheets, I love history books.

So let's go take a look through the history books. Well take a look at the net popularity ratings of GOP Senate leaders, their final ratings as majority leaders.

Take a look here. Mitch McConnell again underwater at minus 39 points. How about his predecessor, Dr. Bill Frist, from the great state of Tennessee? He was underwater, too, but he was only at minus eight points.

Trent Lott was at plus five points, from the great state of Mississippi. And of course, Bob Dole, from the great state of Kansas, he was above water as well at plus six points.

So the bottom line is Mitch McConnell, a historical anomaly when it comes to Republican leaders. He is far, far, far more underwater than any of the past GOP leaders over the last 40 years -- Paula? REID: OK. But do you think he cares, given everything he's been able

to accomplish? We currently have a conservative supermajority at the Supreme Court. Everything he worked for, everything he dreamed of.

ENTEN: Yes. So, you know, you talk about the polls. Donald Trump loves the polls. I love looking at the polls.

I'm not quite sure Mitch McConnell cares about the polls, because the bottom line is this Mitch McConnell got what he wanted. He got what he wanted. Supreme Court nominees confirmed. He got the three, of course, during Trump's first term and Roe v. Wade overturned.

[17:35:10]

So I think that Mitch McConnell would say polls be damned. I may be underwater, but the bottom line is I had one goal in mind, and I was able to achieve it with the Supreme Court supermajority.

And I was able to get Roe v. Wade from being the law of the land to being overturned and going into the wastebin of history.

REID: Take that, Bob Dole.

All right. I want to ask you one more question. On Monday --

ENTEN: Yes.

REID: -- we have a holiday, but it still appears to cause a lot of confusion for people this holiday. So can you break it down for us?

ENTEN: Yes. I just have a question. What the heck is the holiday on Monday? Is it President's Day with the apostrophe before the "S," as New Hampshire says? Is it Presidents' Day with the apostrophe after the "S," as Pennsylvania says?

Is it as New Jersey says, it's Presidents Day with no apostrophe? Or is it, as the great state of New York says, Washington's birthday?

I'm not quite sure you could go wrong here, because any of them equal a day off, but it leaves me in a state of drastic confusion. And I'm hoping somebody might be able to help me figure it out -- Paula?

REID: I cannot help you, Harry. I know that I have the day off because I'm filling in all weekend.

ENTEN: Oh --

(CROSSTALK)

REID: I don't know. I'm not -- I'm not omniscient over here.

But I appreciate you at least highlighting the problem and coming on and helping us put into context Mitch McConnell's legacy here.

You're the best.

ENTEN: Shalom. Be well.

(LAUGHTER)

REID: He's vowing radical transparency in his new role as head of Health and Human Services. But what will RFK Jr's leadership and his vaccine skepticism mean for the future of American health care? Well explore, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:41:27]

REID: Right now, Texas is experiencing it's largest measles outbreak in 30 years. The number of cases has doubled in just four days. State public health officials say there are now 48 cases across four counties, and all of them in patients who are unvaccinated.

But it's not just Texas. Cases of measles are popping up across the country. Last year, the CDC reported 285 cases, the most seen in the U.S. since 2019.

Nearly 90 percent of those patients were not vaccinated. And this is all coming as vaccine skeptics get a new high-profile ally in Robert F. Kennedy Jr. This week, he was officially sworn in as the nation's top health chief.

Joining me now to discuss is Emily Oster. She is an economist at Brown University, the CEO of ParentData, and the author of several books focused on data-driven tips for parenting. I have read them all.

And now she has a new one on vaccine safety. A new article on vaccine safety.

Emily, thank you for being here.

First, your reaction to RFK leading the HHS?

EMILY OSTER, ECONOMIST, BROWN UNIVERSITY & CEO, PARENTDATA & AUTHOR: So in particular, in the case of vaccines, I am worried about the increase in skepticism. We have seen this increase in skepticism beginning during the pandemic and continuing.

And with that skepticism coming from HHS, from the head of HHS, I think there is a concern that the vaccination rates, which have

already started to drop, will continue to drop, and we will see more cases of measles and other vaccine preventable illnesses, as we are already seeing.

REID: Now, RFK Jr reportedly made some serious commitments to several Senators before being confirmed for this role.

Now, according to Republican Senator Bill Cassidy, those commitments include maintaining the nation's current vaccine protocols and guidelines and keeping statements online, saying "vaccines do not cause autism."

How confident are you that he will keep those promises?

OSTER: It's always hard to tell. But I think the reality is it's not actually that important whether there's an official statement online that says that vaccines don't cause autism, if the message that's coming out is, well, maybe they do cause autism, which, to be clear, is something we have shown in extensive data is not true.

I think the core is the messaging, not the availability of vaccines, not what's online. It's what people are hearing and what they're being exposed to. It generates skepticism and it lowers vaccine rates.

So I think those are reasonable promises, but, in fact, are not likely to stem the decline in vaccination rates.

REID: And in this piece you wrote for "The Atlantic," you explained some of the reasons why parents are suddenly questioning vaccine safety.

For example, you pinpoint the Covid 19 pandemic as the main catalyst in this sudden shift in Americans' distrust of health experts and institutions.

Saying, quote, "It's a cliche that trust, once lost, is difficult to regain. Less well understood is that, once gained, trust can be exploited."

So how does that finding fall into the rise of Robert F. Kennedy Jr, now at the top of the governments health care bureaucracy?

OSTER: I think that one of the things that happened during Covid and continues to happen is that actors who had -- had worked with peoples' distrust of various Covid restrictions and of the Covid vaccine had built this trust, and then that trust has been used to generate individual distrust in vaccinations.

[17:45:03]

And as we see RFK elevated to the top of the -- to top of the -- the health hierarchy, we're going to continue to see that build trust and have people then mistrust other experts. It's a -- it's a back and forth that's hard to get out of.

REID: As I mentioned in the introduction, the number of measles cases is multiplying. So based on the data you've looked at and the conversations you've had with parents, at what point does fear of the disease you think surpass a fear of -- of a vaccine?

OSTER: So in some of the research I've done, we can see that when there are cases of vaccine-preventable disease in your local area that prompts vaccination. We can see that in pertussis. We can see it in measles.

So I do think that there is a backstop here where, as cases go up in the local area and people hear about it, we will see increases in vaccines. But not before kids get sick. And having disease drive vaccination is not the direction that we would ideally like to have things go.

REID: Emily, thank you so much for joining us and for your great work. Your books were the number-one recommendation that I got when I had my daughter. So thank you for joining us. And again, keep up the great work.

OSTER: Thanks for having me.

REID: Ahead, a large storm system is unleashing potentially historic rain and flooding on parts of the country that have already been rain soaked for days, putting more than 35 million people under the threat of severe weather.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:51:11]

REID: Tonight, Tens of millions of people across several states are under severe weather alerts as a massive system that just drenched southern California makes its way east.

The potent storm is expected to bring heavy rain and flooding to the south and Midwest, and a wintry mix of ice and snow to the northeast.

Allison Chinchar has the details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALLISON CHINCHAR, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Yet the most widespread concern out of this system is definitely going to be the flooding. And it extends from Arkansas all the way up through western Pennsylvania.

But within that area, this spot right here, this pink color that you see here, this is where we have a level four out of four, a high risk for excessive rainfall.

And just to emphasize, these are rare. They only occur on about 4 percent of the days throughout the year, but they're responsible for 40 percent of flood related deaths and 80 percent of the flood related damage.

So this is a significant concern, especially as we go through the evening and overnight hours tonight.

In addition to flooding, there's also the potential for severe thunderstorms. We're talking damaging winds and the potential for some tornadoes. This exists across portions of the southeast, so Nashville, Birmingham, Atlanta, even down through Mobile.

The timeline for a lot of these storms, you notice a lot of those showers and thunderstorms fire up in the back half of the day and continue through the evening and the overnight hours.

Which means make sure before you go to bed tonight, you have a way to get those emergency alerts on your phone to wake you in case something happens. Then you'll also start to see more of that moisture begin to spread

into portions of the mid-Atlantic and even into the northeast as we head into the very early hours of Sunday.

A lot of the cold weather aspects, the wintry mix, the ice, the snow that lingers through much of the day Sunday. The rest of the system, however, really starts to exit most of these areas, maybe with the exception of Maine by the time we get to the back half of the day on Sunday.

Overall, widespread amounts of these rainfall. You're looking at two to four inches. But it's not out of the question for some spots to pick up half a foot of rain.

On the snow side of this, the heaviest is certainly going to be in interior New England, especially in the green and white mountains, where at least a foot of snow could fall.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

REID: Allison, thank you.

And this weekend, an all-new CNN original series tracks the mysterious circumstances behind the deadliest terror attack on the United States before 9/11. The 1988 bombing of Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland.

The four-part series tracks the complex web of theories that emerged from the global investigation that followed.

Here's a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The radio reported that a Pan American flight had disappeared from radar. That was the beginning of my nightmare.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Boeing 747 has crashed in the Lockerbie area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 747s don't fall out of the sky.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They found explosive residue inside the baggage container.

(SCREAMING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were 259 passengers on the plane. Of those, 190 were American. It was the largest act of terrorism on the United States before 9/11.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was very upsetting. But trying to find out the why of it became everything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are a number of anomalies.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Someone called the U.S. embassy and made a threat. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If some diplomats had known this, why were they

left in the dark?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing is what it seems in the Lockerbie story.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot was going on in the background.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the U.S. government had an agenda.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You could look at the Iranians, the Libyans.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The CIA, Hezbollah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were informants, double agents.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So many twists and turns in this whole story.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We wanted to bring justice to our loved ones.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you're looking for a clean answer, you're not going to get it.

[17:55:00]

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's been 35 years. When is it going to end?

ANNOUNCER: "LOCKERBIE: THE BOMBING OF PAN AM FLIGHT 103" premieres tomorrow at 9:00 on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REID: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Paula Reid in Washington. Jessica Dean has the day off.

[17:59:59]

Tonight, new details on President Trump's push to end the conflict in Ukraine. Multiple sources telling CNN three top administration officials will be traveling to Saudi Arabia to begin talks with senior Russian officials.