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IDF Says Released Hostages Now Back in Israel; U.S. vice president Leaving Ukraine Options Open for POTUS; Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy Speaks at Munich Security Conference. Aired 4-5a ET
Aired February 15, 2025 - 04:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): This is CNN breaking news.
IVAN WATSON, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Ivan Watson in Hong Kong. This is CNN NEWSROOM.
There is breaking news in the Middle East at this hour. The Israeli military now has three former hostages released in Gaza a short time ago. They have arrived in Israel and will soon reunite with their loved ones.
Hamas and the group, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, released the men in Khan Yunis. The three appeared to be in better health than the hostages that were released one week ago. In exchange for these three men. Israel is set to release 369 Palestinians it is holding prisoner. Our Paula Hancocks is monitoring all the developments in Abu Dhabi.
But first, let's go to CNN international diplomatic editor, Nic Robertson, who is live in Tel Aviv at Hostage Square.
Nic, can you bring us up to date how the last hour, the events, the release appeared to you and the reaction there among supporters in that square?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, euphoric when the man, actually the three hostages, Sagui Dekel-Chen, Iair Horn and Sasha Troufanov, were able to get -- they were handed over and they got into the Red Cross vehicles.
That kind of symbolized, formalized the end of their captivity; 498 days, driven to meet the IDF, picked up by the IDF within the past hour, driven now by the IDF to Berri, which is not far from not far from the border of Gaza. They'll get more processing there.
But, of course, so important for them and their families. This, in the coming moments, is when they're going to get reunited with the very sort of close members of their family. Other members of the families have been watching. We've seen the cousins, the grandfather of Sagui Dekel-Chen, cheering
with jubilation as they watch this process unfold, mirroring the sense of relief here in Hostage Square. And so many people that have come out to support them, support them, see the joy. But remember, this is only part of the process.
Not all the hostages are released and so much effort and desire we'll hear focused on getting the others released. But it is a moment for these families, these three families, to get those moments of lost tenderness and love back again.
Iair Horn appears to have lost the most weight; 46 years old, Argentinian Israeli; Sasha Troufanov, 29 years old, shot in both legs, will come home to the tragic news that, on October 7th, his father was killed.
This is something that he will likely be learning soon. And his mother, his grandmother, his girlfriend were taken hostage. But they were released in November 2023. A lot of very hard realities coming home.
But perhaps for Sagui Dekel-Chen, the sweetest moment for him and his family probably when he gets to meet his young daughter that was born in captivity, his third daughter. Such a big moment for that family. He gets to meet a child he has known nothing about.
This is where the stories for them, hopefully, of tragedy and of bearing suffering end and a new beginning begins. But as we know, that's a long and difficult path. And that's what starts today.
WATSON: That's right. I want to ask you to stand by for a moment, Nic, and I'm going to turn now to Paula Hancocks, who is now live in Abu Dhabi.
Paula, we are also, as part of this process, anticipating the release of hundreds of Palestinian prisoners.
Can you tell us how this has worked in the past and what we are expecting to see in the coming hours?
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So Ivan, today we are expecting some 369 Palestinian prisoners to be released. It's a more significant number than we have seen in recent weeks.
Now generally, it takes a few hours before this happens after the release of the Israeli hostages. In fact, in recent weeks, we have seen it going into the night and the early hours of the next day. So what we're expecting today is, of these 369, some 36 of them are serving life sentences.
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Now of those, some 24 will not be allowed to go home. They will be exiled as Israel deems them too dangerous to be allowed to go back to, for example, the occupied West Bank or East Jerusalem. So they will be taken to Egypt, where then they will go on to other
countries that have agreed to house them; 333 of this number that we will see released today will be returned to Gaza. These are individuals that the Israeli military detained during the war.
So since October 7th that they have detained over recent months and have brought them to Israeli detention centers and to Israeli prisons. So there will be scenes in Gaza as well of family reunions.
But what we know, certainly from the occupied West Bank area, is that Israel has been very clear that it does not want to see scenes of jubilation. It doesn't want to see scenes of celebration. In fact, in recent weeks, we have seen very tense scenes between the Israeli police and military and families and bystanders nearby these prisons.
And we also seen and heard allegations, accusations from some of those prisoners that have been released, of mistreatment while they have been in Israel, Israeli prisons.
In fact, just last week, a number of those that were released didn't go straight home. They had to go straight to prison -- excuse me -- to hospitals within the occupied West Bank for treatment before they went home. So this will be something that will be looking out for as well, the physical condition of some of these prisoners.
Certainly a very positive day for some of these families. But as I say, not all of those being released will be allowed to go home. Some deemed too dangerous by Israel will be exiled. Ivan.
WATSON: All right. Thank you, Paula, and we'll be watching closely to see the next phase in this prisoner exchange. I'm going to turn back to Nic Robertson there in Tel Aviv.
You know, we've heard that some of the Palestinians who were released showed signs of mistreatment and abuse.
What can you tell us about the stories we've heard about Israeli hostages who were released after more than a year in captivity in Palestinian militants hands in Gaza?
ROBERTSON: Yes, I think last weekend, when three hostages were released, then their physical condition, the fact that they appeared emaciated, the fact that they appeared to have been deprived of food and sunlight, we understood about from other hostages.
But these three in particular seemed particularly malnourished compared to when they were taken into captivity. Not so much today. Iair Horn has lost weight but last week that really triggered a national anxiety and a political firestorm about the way that Hamas was treating the captives.
Why there's such a contrast this time is, we don't know. Undoubtedly, the IDF is -- will try to figure that one out. But this idea that they were being mistreated is something that the Israeli government has used to criticize Hamas; obviously, Palestinian Islamic Jihad as well. And it's one of those elements that has really called the whole
ceasefire hostage release deal into question. Absolutely, prisoners that have been released from Israeli detention,
Palestinians have complained that they've been underfed, that they've been mistreated, that they've been -- that they've been tortured, that they have not been given proper rights, not been given enough water, not been given enough exercise.
All of these things, some of them looking emaciated when they release -- the IDF has refuted those allegations, says that they are treated in accordance with all international procedures.
But today seems to cast a slightly different impression, if you will, on -- to understand the fate and how all the hostages are bearing up or are being physically treated, in terms of food and nutrition in captivity.
There's so much that we don't know. And it's in the darkness of that lack of knowledge that accusation and counteraccusation fly. And that makes the ceasefire so weak and shaky.
WATSON: All right.
Nic Robertson live in Tel Aviv and Paula Hancocks in Abu Dhabi. Thank you both. And we'll check in with you again as today's events continue.
Now to bring it some more context, I'm going to turn now to Gideon Levy, a columnist with the Israeli newspaper "Haaretz."
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And he's joining us live from Tel Aviv now.
Gideon, so nice to see you. I'd like to start with, you know, an impression from the distance from my perch is that, with every one of these prisoner exchanges, we just see this incredible stagecraft on the part of Hamas and the Palestinian militants.
You know, looked like hundreds of armed fighters and these shows of force and strength around these exchanges.
How is that being received in Israel, those scenes?
GIDEON LEVY, COLUMNIST, "HA'ARETZ": Obviously, Israelis are facing reality.
Namely, that Hamas was not exterminated and the total victory was not achieved. But I wouldn't also exaggerate about it. Yes, they are still on their legs.
They are even armed. But they are not an existential threat to Israel, as many Israeli reporters try to portray. There is still a hardcore of Hamas militants who are still alive and kicking and it will continue like this. And we should draw the conclusion that, if after 15 or 16 months of
fighting, that's the outcome, maybe fighting is not the real way to get this so-called total victory.
WATSON: Yes. I then have to ask, where are you?
How are you judging the state of the ceasefire right now as both Israel and Palestinians go through this, these hostage exchanges?
There are still incidents of violence taking place. There are scores of Israeli hostages still in Gaza.
Looking forward, how would you judge this process and hopes for peace in the weeks and months ahead?
LEVY: It's like a baby born who faces all kinds of dangers, medical dangers and is shaking between life and death. It is very, very fragile. We saw last week, I must remind you, that the American president threatened that, in 15 minutes from now, the gates of hell will be opened over Gaza if not all the prisoners, all the hostages will be released.
They're not going to be released today, obviously. And it was another hollow expression of the new elected president. But by the end of the day, it shows how fragile and explosive. So everyone feels such a relief if another three hostages were released today quite safely and they seem even in good shape.
But the future is very, very uncertain and I don't see the second phase of the agreement being implemented. That will be an enormous surprise.
WATSON: You brought up president Trump and the role he's playing here. We've heard relatives of some of the released hostages thanking him and his administration for the role they've played in this process.
Of course, since then, we've heard, as you pointed out, threats to unleash the gates of hell on Gaza and also a plan to remove more than 2 million Palestinians and to turn Gaza into to the Riviera of the region there.
What kind of role do you see president Trump playing at this stage of the process?
And how are his statements being received by different political factions in Israel?
LEVY: So first of all, he had a enormous contribution by pushing Netanyahu to start the deal. And this nobody can take of him. Once he sent his envoy to Jerusalem a few hours later, Netanyahu gave up all his conditions and the deal started to be implemented.
This is unforgettable. What happened ever since then is only damages and damages, mainly megalomaniac declarations, both about the gates of hell as I just mentioned and about the Riviera of Gaza. Both obviously were totally hollow. Both will not be implemented.
We see it now. But by the end of the day in Israel, obviously the right wingers, the nationalists, the transfer for them, it was a big booster. For them, it was a big encouragement and legitimization of crimes of war. Namely, transfer became part of the discourse. And that's so dangerous.
WATSON: And can I ask about the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu?
What kind of messaging are you hearing from him for some kind of continued negotiated settlement between Israel and the militants in Gaza?
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LEVY: I think it's quite clear that Netanyahu does not want to get to the second phase. Nobody knows what did Donald Trump tell you -- tell him, between them in the White House.
But it's very clear for Netanyahu. The second phase means for everyone the end of the war in Gaza. And Netanyahu does not want to end this war. And therefore, I don't see him going for it unless Donald Trump will make him implement also the second phase. Right now, the chances are very small, mainly because Netanyahu doesn't want it.
WATSON: All right. As you described it, this is a very fragile moment and we will be watching closely to see how it progresses from here. Gideon Levy, live in Tel Aviv, thank you for your analysis.
LEVY: Thank you for having me.
WATSON: All right. The U.S. vice president slams the state of democracy on the European continent, not in Russia or Belarus but among some of America's closest allies. That story is ahead.
Plus, as president Donald Trump continues to slash federal jobs, the agency in charge of America's nuclear weapons was targeted.
Why those layoffs were then quickly called off. That's coming up next.
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J.D. VANCE (R-OH), VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If American democracy can survive 10 years of Greta Thunberg's scolding, you guys can survive a few months of Elon Musk.
(END VIDEO CLIP) WATSON: That's U.S. vice president JD Vance, blasting the state of European democracy at the Munich Security Conference on Friday, comparing the words of the world's richest man to that of a 22 year old Swedish environmental and human rights activist.
He was expected to speak about Ukraine, which he barely mentioned. Instead, Vance laid into European leaders, accusing them of backsliding on democracy and even comparing them with Cold War tyrants.
Germany's defense minister is calling the accusations "unacceptable," while a Ukrainian parliament member said the U.S. is using Europeans as vassal states.
Vance also met Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who said his intelligence agencies believe Russia is preparing to attack a NATO country next year. He also said Ukraine will need to double the size of its military if it does not join NATO and that, whatever peace deal is signed in the end, Kyiv will need security guarantees.
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VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: Well, we're thankful for American support. President Trump, we have good conversation today. Our first meeting, not last I'm sure. And really what we need to speak more, to work more and to prepare the plan, how to stop Putin and finish the war.
We want -- really we want peace very much. But we need real security guarantees and we will continue our meetings and our work.
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WATSON: In his criticism of Europe. Vance didn't even mention the real autocrats like those in Russia and Belarus. But he accused European democracies of restricting freedom of speech.
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Free speech, I fear, is in retreat.
And in the interest of comedy, my friends, but also in the interest of truth, I will admit that sometimes the loudest voices for censorship have come not from within Europe but from within my own country, where the prior administration threatened and bullied social media companies to censor so-called misinformation.
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WATSON: But that statement was only the beginning of Vance's attack on the state of European Democracies. Alex Marquardt has the rest.
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ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Vice president JD Vance delivering a blistering speech here in Munich, really taking a swing at some of America's closest European allies.
Whether it's Great Britain, Germany or others, there was an expectation that he would talk about European politics. But given where we are at this security conference, there was also a hope that he would talk about adversaries like Russia and China, what they're doing in the West, the war in Ukraine.
But those were subjects that he hardly touched on. Instead, he criticized European democracy and he accused them of cracking down on freedom of speech, on social media, on freedom of worship.
And he said that the biggest threat to Europe is not external but internal and its migration. He even pointed to an attack here in Munich on Thursday that was carried out by an Afghan migrant. Take a listen.
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VANCE: The threat that I worry the most about vis-a-vis Europe is not Russia, it's not China, it's not any other external actor.
And what I worry about is the threat from within, the retreat of Europe from some of its most fundamental values, values shared with the United States of America.
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MARQUARDT: The reaction here to that speech, fast and furious. A lot of criticism from the Europeans. I spoke to one European official, who said that it sounded to him like interference. The German defense minister said that what Vance said in that speech was unacceptable.
Vance then went on to meet with president Volodymyr Zelenskyy of Ukraine. A lot of discussion about what the contours of a peace deal might look like between Russia and Ukraine.
A lot of accusations that American officials are giving too many concessions to the Russian side before those discussions even start. Vice president Vance softening some of the messaging from Washington in the past few days, not laying out any hard lines.
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Saying that he's leaving all optionality, as he called it, for president Trump. But president Trump, we know, has said that, for one, he doesn't believe that Ukraine should join NATO.
He says that Russia should be welcomed back into the G8, which they were kicked out of after they invaded Crimea. President Zelenskyy insisting that, of course, Ukraine has to be part of the conversation. They need to be at the table when they're in negotiations about their future.
He said that U.S. support is necessary, that security guarantees are absolutely essential. That will be a focal point for the conversations going forward. President Trump's Ukraine and Russia envoy, Keith Kellogg, is heading to Ukraine next week for more discussions -- back to you.
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WATSON: But is this a case of the American vice president calling -- the kettle the pot black?
Because Vance lambasted the alleged crackdown on freedoms in Europe on the same day that the White House indefinitely banned Associated Press reporters from the Oval Office and Air Force One.
And that's because Mr. Trump is trying to rename the Gulf of Mexico the Gulf of America. The news agency is still using the original name while acknowledging Trump's decree.
Other countries, just like most global news organizations, still say the Gulf of Mexico. The Associated Press has indicated it's preparing a legal challenge. CNN's Frederik Pleitgen is in Moscow with Russia's reaction to what they're hearing from the Trump administration on Ukraine.
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FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The Russians also seem to be trying to figure out what exactly to make of the Trump administration.
A couple of days after what the Russians deemed to be a very successful phone call between U.S. president Donald Trump and Russian president Vladimir Putin, essentially paving the way for possible peace talks to try and end the war in Ukraine but also for a possible direct meeting between Putin and Trump in a third country.
The Russians now hearing from JD Vance, the U.S. vice president.
In an interview with "The Wall Street Journal," essentially threatening the Russians that, if they don't sign on to a peace deal, that the U.S. would have both economic and military levers at its disposal to try and get the Russians to come to the negotiating table and to get to some sort of agreement.
Now I texted the spokesman for the Kremlin, Dmitry Peskov, about all this and he texted back that he was hoping and the Russians were hoping to clarify everything through direct contacts; meaning, obviously, the Russians want to get in direct contact with the Trump administration.
Now that is, of course, already happening. The Russians are saying they're already trying to put together and putting together teams for possible negotiations for an end to the war in Ukraine.
But the main thing for the Russians, the first thing that they want to achieve, they say, is a direct face to face meeting between president Vladimir Putin of Russia and the U.S. president, Donald Trump.
Now we heard from the Trump administration that they believe that such a meeting could take place in Saudi Arabia. The Russians have not yet confirmed that. But they are saying that they are already putting teams together to try and set something like that in motion.
And the spokesman for the Kremlin also said that he believes that a meeting like that could take place within a matter of weeks at most, within a matter of a few months.
Now the Russians are cautioning, though, that any sort of way to an end to the war in Ukraine might not be as easy, as president Trump may have let on before taking office and shortly after taking office. The Russians are saying that there are a lot of issues for them, that they simply will not budge from.
One of the ones -- and this was also set out by the Kremlin spokesman -- is the territory that Ukraine currently holds inside of Russia, in the Kursk region, where the Russians are saying they want to militarily oust the Ukrainians from that territory. They do not want that to be part of negotiations going forward.
And then, of course, there is also the question of all the territory that the Russians hold inside of Ukraine and the question of possible Ukrainian NATO membership in the future.
Of course, there again, we've heard mixed messages coming from the Trump administration, some Trump officials saying they do not believe that Ukraine will be a part of NATO. Others saying that it is something that might happen in the future. The Russians certainly also wanting to clarify that -- Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Moscow.
(END VIDEOTAPE) WATSON: All right. Still ahead, Ukraine's president is going to sit down with CNN's Christiane Amanpour for an interview. Those are live images from the Munich Security Conference. And that interview is coming up. Stay with CNN.
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WATSON: Welcome back to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Ivan Watson in Hong Kong. You are watching CNN NEWSROOM.
Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy is addressing the Munich Security Conference. CNN's Christiane Amanpour will interview him right after his remarks. Let's listen in.
ZELENSKYY: And their own home.
Without Ukraine's army, Europe's armies will not be enough to stop Russia. It's reality for today. Only our army in Europe has real modern battlefield experience. But our army alone is not enough too. And we need what you can provide -- weapons, training, sanctions, financing, political pressure and unity. Three years of full scale war have proven that we already have the
foundation for a united European military force. And now, as we fight this war and lay the groundwork for peace and security, we must build the armed forces of Europe.
[04:35:06]
So that Europe's future depends only on Europeans and decisions about Europe are made in Europe.
(APPLAUSE)
ZELENSKYY: That's why we are talking with European leaders and with the United States about military contingents that can ensure peace and not just in Ukraine but across Europe.
And that's why we are developing joint weapons production, especially drones, especially the Danish model, for example, of pooled investments for arms production in our country is already working well, very, very, very successful.
Last year alone, thanks to Ukrainian and partners' efforts, we produced over 1.5 million drones of various types. Ukraine is now the world leader in drone warfare. This is our success.
But it's also your success, of course. And everything we build for our own defense in Ukraine also strengthens your security. And the same should apply to artillery, air defense technologies and armored vehicles. Everything needed to protect lives in modern war should be produced in Europe fully. Europe has everything it takes.
Europe just needs to come together and start acting in a way that no one can say no to Europe, both its round (ph) or treat it like a pushover. This isn't just about stockpiling weapons, it's about jobs, technological leadership and economic strength for Europe.
Last fall in my victory plan, I proposed replacing part of the U.S. military presence in Europe with Ukrainian forces. If Ukraine is in NATO, of course, if the Americans themselves decide to go that way, decreasing their presence is not good, of course. It's very dangerous.
But we all in Europe need to be ready. And I started discussing this even before the U.S. elections, because I could see where American policy was heading. But America needs to see where Europe is heading. And this direction of European policy shouldn't just be promising. It should make America want to stand with a strong Europe.
This is absolutely possible, I'm sure of it. And we must shape that course. Europe must decide its own future. We need confidence in our own strength so that others have no choice but to respect Europe's power.
And without a European army, that is impossible. Once again, Europe needs its own armed forces. And I know, I know, Mark Rutte, my good friend, is listening to me right now. And Mark, my friend, this isn't about replacing the alliance. This is
about making Europe's contribution to our partnership equal to America's. And we need the same approach when it comes to diplomacy, working together for peace.
Ukraine will never accept deals made behind our backs without our involvement. And the same rule should apply to all of Europe. No decisions about Ukraine without Ukraine, no decisions about Europe without Europe.
Europe must have a seat at the table when decisions about Europe are being made. Anything else is zero. If we are left out of negotiations about our own future, then we all lose.
Look at what Putin is trying to do now. This is his game. Putin wants one on one talks with America just like before the war, when they met in Switzerland, and looked like to carve up the world.
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Next, Putin will try to get the U.S. president, standing on Red Square, on May 9th this year, not as a respected leader but as a prop in his own performance. We don't need that. We need real success. We need real peace.
(APPLAUSE)
ZELENSKYY: Some in Europe may not fully understand what's happening in Washington right now. But let's focus on understanding ourselves right here in Europe. We must give strength to Europe first.
Does America need Europe as a market?
Yes. But as an ally. I don't know. For the answer to be yes, Europe needs a single voice, not a dozen different ones. Even those who regularly come to Mar-a-Lago need to be a part of a strong Europe.
Because president Trump does -- doesn't like weak friends. He respects strengths. Next, some in Europe may be frustrated with Brussels. But let's be clear, if not Brussels, then Moscow. It's your decision.
(APPLAUSE)
ZELENSKYY: That's geopolitics. That's history.
Moscow will pull Europe apart if we as Europeans don't trust each other. A few days ago, president Trump told me about his conversation with Putin. Not once did he mention that America needs Europe at the table. That says a lot.
The old days are over when America supported Europe just because it always had. But president Trump once said, what matters is not the family you were born into but the one you build.
We must build the closest possible relationship with America and, yes, a new relationship. But as Europeans, not just as separate nations. That's why --
(APPLAUSE)
ZELENSKYY: -- that's why -- that's why we need a unified foreign policy, a coordinated diplomacy, the foreign policy of common Europe.
And let the end of this war be our first shared success in this new reality. And we are already working to make sure that, on February 24th, the anniversary of Russia's full scale invasion, we can gather together in Kyiv.
And online, all European leaders, all key partners who defend our security, from Spain to Finland, from Britain to Poland, from Washington to Tokyo, this meeting must deliver a clear vision for our next steps on peace, security guarantees and the future of our collective policy.
And I do not believe in security guarantees without America. Yes, it will be just weak but America will not offer guarantees unless Europe's own guarantees are strong. And I also will not take NATO membership for Ukraine off the table. But --
(APPLAUSE)
ZELENSKYY: -- but right now, the most influential member of NATO seems to be Putin.
(LAUGHTER)
ZELENSKYY: Because his whims have the power to block NATO decisions. And that's despite the fact that it was Ukraine's army that stopped Russia. Not a NATO country. Not NATO troops. But only our people and our army. And there are no foreign armies fighting on Ukraine's side in this war.
But Putin has lost almost 250,000 soldiers in this war. Over 610,000 have been wounded just in the battle of Kursk. Our troops eliminated nearly 20,000 Russian soldiers. We completely destroyed the North Korean units that Putin had to bring in, because his own forces were not enough to hold back our counter-offensive.
[04:45:00]
For over six months now. Ukrainians have been holding a foothold inside Russian territory, even though it was Russia that wanted to create a buffer zone inside our land in Ukraine.
And I am proud of Ukraine. I am proud of our people.
(APPLAUSE)
ZELENSKYY: But now I ask you, each of you, to honestly answer this question.
If Russia came for you, could your army fight the same way? I don't want anyone, I don't want anyone to ever have to find out. God forbid. That's why we are talking about security guarantees. And that's why we believe that the core of any security guarantees for Ukraine must be NATO membership.
Or if not that, then conditions that allow us to build another NATO right here in Ukraine because at some point there will be a border between war and peace. Where that border is drawn and how strong it is up to us.
My proposal, Ukraine's eastern border, Belarus eastern border, the eastern borders of the Baltic states, Finland's eastern border, that is the strongest security line for all of us in Europe, because that is the line of international law.
(APPLAUSE)
ZELENSKYY: And do we still remember what international law is?
Let's be honest, "international law," these two words already sounds a bit outdated. But I believe that Europe's mission is to make sure international law still matters.
And finally, one last point.
What security guarantees can Putin offer?
Before the war, many doubted whether Ukraine institutions could withstand Russian and Putin's pressure. But in the end, it was Putin who faced an armed rebellion from within. He was the one who had to defend his own capital from his own warlords. That alone shows his weakness.
So what happens to the million Russian troops currently fighting in Ukraine?
Where are they going to fight if not in Ukraine?
This is why we cannot just agree to a ceasefire without real security guarantee, without pressure on Russia, without a system to keep Russia in check. To fight us, Putin pulled troops from Syria, from Africa, from Caucasus, even from some part of Moldova. And right now he faces a shortage of fighting forces.
And if this war ends the wrong way, he will have a surplus of battle tested soldiers who know nothing but killing and looting. And that is yet another reason why this war cannot be decided by just a few leaders, not by Trump and Putin, not by me and Putin, not by anyone here in Munich sitting down with Putin alone.
We must apply pressure together to make real peace.
(APPLAUSE)
ZELENSKYY: Putin cannot offer real security guarantees, not just because he is a liar but because Russia, in its current state, needs war to hold power together. And the world must be protected from that.
So first, the armed forces of Europe has now agreed to NATO.
Second, a common European foreign policy.
Third, a level of European cooperation that Washington has to take seriously.
Fourth, international law.
And fifth, keeping all pressure on Russia because the pressure is what guarantees peace.
[04:50:00]
Not Putin's words, not just some papers. Putin lies. He is predictable and he is weak. We must use that now, not later. And we must act as Europe, not as a bunch of separate people.
So some say that the new year comes not on January 1st but with Munich Security Conference.
(APPLAUSE)
ZELENSKYY: This new year starts now. And let it be the year of Europe, united, strong security and in peace. Peace for Ukraine. Peace for Europe. Peace for all the world, for all your families. Thank you so much. Slava Ukraini.
(APPLAUSE)
WATSON: We have just been listening to the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, giving a rousing speech at the Munich Security Conference. You can see him on stage there, getting a standing ovation. Lot of applause from the gathered leaders and officers in that ballroom in Munich.
And perhaps a sharp contrast from the speech that we heard from JD Vance, the U.S. vice president yesterday there. Now we're going to tune in to CNN's chief international anchor, Christiane Amanpour, who is interviewing the Ukrainian president.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I want to ask you to expand more on the American piece of this.
You, after your phone call with president Trump, said that you did not hear enough detail to make this a peace plan.
Can you just elaborate what you meant by that?
ZELENSKYY: Can I speak Ukrainian?
AMANPOUR: No.
ZELENSKYY: OK.
(LAUGHTER)
ZELENSKYY: Don't pressure on me.
(LAUGHTER)
ZELENSKYY: OK. So yes, we had really a long conversation with the president of the United States. Not the first one and not last. I'm sure. And we -- I mean, really, between us, I'm not sure that by phone we can manage all the plan, all security guarantees, with all the details.
Because, you know, devil in the details. Yes.
And we know where is this devil?
In what country now?
Yes. That's why we have to stop him, to stop Putin. And it's very important for me.
That's why the atmosphere of our discussion is good but really it's always good. Yes. But we need urgent, very concrete steps. And I think we have to work on it. Our teams, we began. But I think that we have to start immediately to do more deep decisions.
AMANPOUR: We'll get into that in a in a moment. But you did also have a separate conversation with vice president JD Vance last night, you and your team and his team as well.
Did he provide any more details?
And, you know, we have to bring up that, in 2022 here, basically, JD Vance said he didn't -- and this is a quote, "I don't care what happens to Ukraine one way or another."
Do you feel that he's changed, that the Trump administration and the actors you're dealing with understand what's at stake?
ZELENSKYY: I'll be honest. We have to work on it. All of us, not only me. Me is not enough, really. I think we have to work because I think that, you know, we, together in Europe, the war is in Europe. And America is far from -- far from the invasion.
And I think that we need to share more details, because to my mind, there are a lot of different voices around new American administration. And I'm not sure that all these voices on our side.
That's why we have to work with these people, even with some Europeans, as I said, if I was understandable. I don't know about Mar- a-Lago all there. Yes. Yes.
AMANPOUR: It was clear.
ZELENSKYY: It was clear. But I want to repeat it. Yes.
(LAUGHTER) ZELENSKYY: It's important.
(APPLAUSE)
ZELENSKYY: It's important for them to be clear.
AMANPOUR: Do you want to name names while we're at it?
ZELENSKYY: I know names, of course.
(LAUGHTER)
ZELENSKYY: I'm not sure that it's -- Yes.
[04:55:00]
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: Let's just get back to president Trump. At a press conference --
ZELENSKYY: You said about Orban -- oh, sorry.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
AMANPOUR: Do you understand?
ZELENSKYY: No, no, no.
AMANPOUR: Viktor Orban is what the president was saying.
Mr. President, Trump was asked whether he trusted Putin and he sort of basically ended up saying, on this, I do. But he has also said that -- and frankly, it's quite difficult to extract what all the different administration officials have been saying.
On the one hand, potentially, that, you know, maybe Ukraine had a responsibility for this war. Maybe Ukraine can't ever expect to get back. It's unrealistic, according to the Defense Secretary, its territory. Maybe Ukraine will be safe and independent. Maybe it will be part of Russia.
Do you understand what America's position is?
ZELENSKYY: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Which is?
ZELENSKYY: I think, to my mind, they are preparing atmosphere for their dialogue.
AMANPOUR: For their dialogue -- which will be?
ZELENSKYY: For the dialogue between Trump and Putin. And I think this is -- I mean, this -- it's up to them. But they can discuss everything they want but not about Ukraine without us.
And that's why in this case --
(APPLAUSE)
ZELENSKYY: -- that's why, especially in this case, I think it's a little bit dangerous. That's why I said that we need to talk more with the president and to talk more with his people, with his teams.
Yesterday, as you said, yes, we had -- we had good conversation. And I think that I opened some new details for vice president. That's why I said I -- we need -- let's not waste time. It's really very important. I think diplomatic investment for the future, just and lasting peace for Ukraine.
You.
AMANPOUR: Yes. Sorry. Yes. I thought you were going to say something.
ZELENSKYY: Your order.
AMANPOUR: Yes, yes, yes, You just sort of --
ZELENSKYY: I'm sorry.
AMANPOUR: You said Putin doesn't want peace. I mean, you just said it loud and clear here.
So what is the dialogue?
And have you convinced the Americans that, A, Ukraine has to be at the table and, B. I guess the Europeans have to convince them?
(CROSSTALK)
ZELENSKYY: On all the levels, on all the levels we directly -- yes, very directly, send these messages that we have to prepare security guarantees like a main part of the stopping Putin and stop this war.
And very important, essential. And we say that it can't be without us. And that's why -- I don't know if we don't have, from my point of view, if we don't have for today, common plan, it means for me that United States doesn't have.
Because if they have something, it's not about us. I mean this about something new. But we don't want this new reality. Yes.
So that's why, you know what?
What?
AMANPOUR: I was just asking you whether you have convinced him that you must be at the table.
ZELENSKYY: Of course. Of course I said that. I think that it's good that, first of all, we have to make a plan with you, I said to the president. It was the day when he had phone calls with Putin and with me. And first with him and then with us.
AMANPOUR: And how did that sit with you?
ZELENSKYY: No, I said that.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: -- that first with Putin and then with you.
ZELENY: Oh, I'm not happy. I mean, yes. But I think that more dangerous, if first meeting will be with Putin and then with Ukraine. And there are things I shared with president Trump, that, first of all, we have to see common view.
And I said also that, at the table, we need Europe also. It's very important for us. We are Europe. We in Europe. And we see our future only in E.U. like a member. So that's why for us it's very important.
And Europe helped us a lot because, when I speak, really, when I speak with different officials of the United States, of new administration -- and we are thankful for them that they didn't frozen their military support. It's very important and I'm very thankful. Thanks again.
But when we speak, I really understand what part of support did America during this three years and what huge support made Europe. And it's important.
AMANPOUR: Did you get a commitment from president Trump that you would meet with him first?
Do you have a plan to meet with the president?
