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DOGE Team Wants to Gain Access to Personal Taxpayer Date; Education Department Threatens Funding of Schools That Consider Race; U.S. and Russia to Discuss Ending Peace Plan, Ukraine Not Invited. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired February 17, 2025 - 10:00   ET

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PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: DOGE to see your private data? New CNN reporting that Elon Musk's team wants to access an IRS system. That includes your tax and bank information.

Plus, not at the table, U.S. and Russian officials meet tomorrow to talk about Ukraine's future, but no one from the very country they're talking about will be there that they're talking about.

And then later, deadly flooding, at least ten people killed as record rainfall swamps the south and Midwest. Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear will join me as the flooding threat persists in my home state of Kentucky.

Well, good morning to you. You are live in the CNN Newsroom. I'm Pamela Brown in Washington.

And I want to begin this morning with Elon Musk's DOGE team and its search for more access to government agencies. DOGE is seeking access to personal taxpayer data at the IRS, details like banking information and personal identification numbers.

CNN's Alayna Treene is at the White House. Alayna, I just got off at the source familiar with the situation. You said there's a lot of alarm right now in the IRS that politicals are not supposed to access this system. Even IRS commissioners don't access it because it is such sensitive information about every American and their taxpayer information. And there's a lot of questions about how this fits into DOGE's priorities of waste, fraud, and abuse. What are you learning, Alayna?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: That's right. There are definitely concerns, especially just given the highly sensitive nature of what the data system underneath the internal revenue service has. As you mentioned in data, including taxpayer information, social security numbers, banking information, the list goes on.

But to give you a sense of what's happening today, so, essentially, we've learned that DOGE has turned its attention to the IRS. They want to access that system as part of their broader effort to hunt down what they call waste, fraud and abuse within the federal government. Now, I've learned according to a source familiar with the matter that a DOGE software engineer, his name is Gavin Kliger, he's working under doge, but it's going to be temporarily based at the IRS, he is in the process, I'm told, of getting access to the IRS system. I'm told that as of last night at 9:00 P.M., he did not have access to this highly sensitive data system, but that it is expected to happen, quote, imminently, according to this source.

And in a statement from the White House, Harrison Fields, a spokesman for the White House, told me quote waste, fraud and abuse have been deeply entrenched in our broken system for far too long. It takes direct access to the system to identify and fix it. DOGE will continue to shine a light on the fraud they uncover as the American people deserve to know what their government has been spending their hard earned tax dollars on.

Now, I do just want to get into a little bit more the details of what exactly the data that DOGE might be accessing looks like. So, there's this one system called the IDRS. It's the integrated data retrieval system. Under that includes data on Social Security numbers, bank account information, addresses, tax returns and other personally identifying data. We also know that, for example, that some -- they have some personal data on different employees and taxpayers, excuse me. Apparently the IDRS includes information about taxpayers' pending adoptions, for example, so parents can claim dependency exemptions and tile childcare credits.

All to say this is the latest effort by the Department of Government Efficiency helmed by Elon Musk to try and gain access to these different, very highly secure systems to see if any sort of waste or abuse or corruption is happening within those different agencies. But as you mentioned as well, a lot of concern among people at the IRS because they know how sensitive this information is, and there's so many laws and regulations around what you can do for with it now as well.

I'm told Pamela that there is some sort of memorandum of understanding that the IRS is considering to allow broader access by DOGE employees to this system. Part of that does include, though, one, having people like this data engineer working under DOGE, Gavin Kliger you know, just temporary access to this, but also noting that he would have to destroy any sort of documents and handle all of this data very confidentially, you know, upon his completion at the agency.

But a lot of questions still, of course, about whether or not DOGE should have this authority and whether or not some of this is legal, as we've seen with a lot of the other moves that they had done so far. Pamela?

BROWN: Right. This is certainly fitting in with a pattern. But when you look at the different agencies in their systems, I think in terms of Americans information, it varies, right? And with the IRS system, it's particularly personal, private information. And I think that is why in talking to sources, there is concern about this access.

Alayna Treene, thank you so much for laying all of that out for laying all of that out for us.

Mark Everson joins us now. He was IRS commissioner from 2003 to 2007 when George W. Bush was president. Thank you for coming on.

So, I want to get your reaction to all of this. As I have been reporting, I just spoke to a source close to the IRS who said that this is highly irregular for politicals to get this kind of access to this IDRS system with personal taxpayer data. This person said that, typically, even IRS commissioners don't have regular access to this system in the past. How surprising is it to you that DOGE will imminently be getting in?

MARK EVERSON, IRS COMMISIONER FROM 2003-2007: Well, let me just start by saying I applaud the president's efforts to make the government more efficient. And that's certainly called what I would say in this instance is I would urge the group those to proceed with extreme care. There's real operational risk here.

You may remember it was just several years ago where there was the ProPublica leak that was a massive leak of taxpayer information. Nobody thought that was going to happen, but it did. And this is very sensitive information. There's plenty to do with the IRS in terms of modernizing the agency. It doesn't operate like a bank. It needs real technical improvements and some of that is underway. But to access this information, anything that's done with this kind of that particular system has got to be done with extreme, extreme care.

BROWN: Just really quickly in terms of politicals getting access, is that true that it's highly unusual for politicals to have access to this system?

EVERSON: Yes, absolutely. I never saw any of those systems. I had plenty to do sort of running the agency and speaking on Capitol Hill and making the decisions, of course, but the access to taxpayer information needs to be protected. And I do think that there are many ways to work on efficiency and look at the very legitimate issues that Mr. Musk is after without going into this particular system at this time.

And what I really would caution or counsel is that the president has a nominee, Billy Long, former Congressman Long, that he has nominated to the position. I think he should get in there and then they can make decisions as to what the proper thing to do in terms of DOGE's role.

BROWN: Right. Because the source I spoke with this morning really raised that question of why do you need access to this system with this, all this personal information from Americans for the purpose of waste, fraud and abuse? As you know, the IRS already does audits. And it sounds like you're kind of echoing that same sentiment. Can you explain exactly what the system is, what kind of information is in it, how it all works just so we can all understand fully?

EVERSON: Sure. What the IRS -- it has hundreds of systems that interact with each other. But before someone's going to have an audit or you're going to send out a notice, you want to make sure that you have all of the relevant information on the taxpayer. You know, maybe there's a pending matter already, or there's an open year, there's money that was owed from before, or there's a refund due. So, you do need to have a central depository that has all of the relevant information. And that's what you have here.

But that doesn't run to, oh, you know, something like the earned income tax credit has. It has the highest error rate of any of their programs. But that would not be -- that would be something that you would look at to obviously improve the efficiency of. But you don't necessarily need to use this system to make strides on efficiency or going after waste, fraud and abuse, I would say.

BROWN: In a statement, the White House defended this move, saying, quote, waste, fraud and abuse have been deeply entrenched in our broken system for far too long.

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It takes direct access to the system to identify and fix it. DOGE will continue to shine a light on the fraud they uncover as the American people deserve to know what their government has been spending their hard earned tax dollars on.

So, this DOGE employee, special -- go ahead.

EVERSON: No, I agree with that entirely. The question is whether this particular system is essential to achieving that task. And I think that there are plenty of things to look at the IRS but there's a skittishness, there's a concern. We're in the middle of the filing season now. A couple 100 million people are affected by paying their taxes. So, you don't want to have any significant operational risk if there's any hiccups that occur that are totally unrelated to this. I wouldn't want to take on that risk if I were in the administration right now. Plenty to do with the IRS, go after it. That's fine. But I would be very careful here.

BROWN: And I think also just for a lot of Americans, they don't have a full grasp of what's going on. I mean, Elon Musk says he's being transparent by putting stuff on X and so forth. But we don't really know who these people are getting access and what they're doing with the information and that kind of thing. And we know there's historical reporting, you know, looking back from when Trump's first term a few years ago, Trump's former chief of staff, John Kelly, told The New York Times that the president said, he wanted to quote, get the IRS on his political enemies. You know, so we know that.

And I'm not saying that's the intent here, but without sort of more transparency, concerns are raised about a Trump political appointee having access to this information. Do you share that concern?

EVERSON: I just think that it's a very significant operational risk, potentially, when you get involved in a system like that, so they've got to be extremely careful. And, yes, there are -- the IRS is very much in the crosshairs. So, that does add to the stakes of looking at anything there.

So, again, I would suggest that the right thing to do here is to get Congressman Long, former Congressman Long before the Finance Committee, get them confirmed and then work out whatever DOGE is going to do in terms of looking at the IRS. That's the order of events that I would follow.

BROWN: Mark Everson, really important to get your perspective on this as a former IRS commissioner. Thank you so much.

EVERSON: Thank you.

BROWN: Well, the Department of Education is now threatening schools over race. A department official warns that preschools, universities and everything in between could lose federal funding if they consider race and admissions, hiring, financial aid, and pretty much any aspect of student life.

CNN's Rene Marsh joins us. So, Rene, this is rooted in that 2023 Supreme Court ruling that gutted affirmative action in college admissions, but even preschools are targeted here. What more can you tell us?

RENE MARSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right, Pamela. I mean, no school spared based on this interpretation that we're reading here in this letter. Again, this is a threat to pull this federal funding directed again at preschools all the way up to colleges and universities. And the Trump administration's Department of Education has told schools across the country to stop considering race in almost every aspect of student life, and they need to do it in 14 days.

The agency sent this letter Friday night, and it states that if a school treats a person of one race differently than it treats another, that is a violation of federal law. This letter goes on to say that this will pertain to admissions, hiring, promotion, compensation, financial aid, scholarships, prizes, administrative support, discipline, housing, graduation ceremonies, and all other aspects of student academic and campus life. That just shows you just how broad this is.

And as you mentioned up top, Pamela, this mandate is the Trump administration's sweeping interpretation of this Supreme Court 2023 ruling in Students for Fair Admissions versus Harvard, which was very specific when it struck down affirmative action in college admissions. But the administration is trying to use that ruling to justify extending it to any and all racial-conscious spending activities or programming on school campuses.

This will certainly face legal challenges. We are already hearing from Democratic lawmakers on Capitol Hill. Democratic Senator Patty Murray saying, there is simply no authority or basis for Trump to impose such a mandate. In fact, federal laws prohibit any president from telling schools and colleges what they can teach. Pamela?

BROWN: And what about any reaction from education leaders? Do they have a deadline to respond here?

[10:15:00] MARSH: They do. So this letter was sent on Friday, the 14th, and they gave these schools 14 days. And, you know, look, whether or not this is legal, it certainly, I would believe, has this ripple effect of having schools rethink their programs and what they're doing if there is this fear of losing federal funding.

So, while we do expect this to be fought in the court, the question remains of what sort of impact it will have on schools who just alone, this letter alone is enough to make them rethink.

We've reached out to several unions and school teachers unions and we are waiting to hear back. No one coming out and speaking just yet. I think many are just trying to digest what this means and figure out what how it may impact their programs and how to respond to it. Pamela?

BROWN: Rene Marsh, thank you so much.

And coming up, U.S. and Russian officials will be meeting in Saudi Arabia to discuss ending the conflict in Ukraine, but Ukrainian officials won't be part of that initial conversation, neither will the Europeans. And they're holding an emergency summit. The hard line Russia is already taking up, next.

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BROWN: U.S. and Russian officials will meet tomorrow in Saudi Arabia to discuss ending the conflict in Ukraine. Secretary of State Marco Rubio is there for the talks, but very notably, Ukrainian officials are not. And European leaders, for their part, are holding an emergency summit in Paris to ensure Europe remains a key player in negotiations. Ukraine's president doesn't seem so pleased about being left out.

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VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: Ukraine will not participate. Ukraine knew nothing about them. Ukraine perceives any negotiations about Ukraine, without Ukraine, as those with no results. We cannot recognize anything or any agreements about us without us.

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BROWN: Also new this morning, a blunt reality check. Russia's foreign minister implies that the Kremlin is not willing to make compromises to broker a peace deal.

CNN's Fred Pleitgen is in Moscow. Fred, it was in response to your question that Foreign Minister Lavrov really seemed to set expectations of Russian concessions or lack thereof. What did he say?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you're absolutely right, Pamela. We were at a press conference earlier today with the Russian foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov. And of course, we have heard from several officials from the Trump administration that they believe that as these talks go on to try and find some sort of ceasefire or peace agreement and to end the conflict between Russia and Ukraine, that the Trump administration believes that both sides will have to make painful compromises.

So, I asked Sergei Lavrov what compromises Russia is willing to make, especially as far as the territory that it currently holds in Ukraine. Here's what he had to say.

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PLEITGEN: Which territorial concessions, in general, which compromises is Russia willing to make to achieve such a peace agreement?

SERGEY LAVROV, RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: You want us to have a mere thought of the negotiations on the settlement regarding the fact that some territories still need to be ceded. To cede how? With people? With Russians? Or without people? With only rare earth metals?

If we are still talking about serious diplomacy, it's better to first understand the history of the issue and see why the Russian language is banned in all spheres of life in Ukraine and why the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church is banned there.

And here, they say that territorial concessions are necessary. For what? So, that Russians can now be destroyed like they are now being destroyed in the Kursk region and in other regions of the Russian Federation.

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PLEITGEN: So, you hear there, Pamela, the Russian foreign minister not sounding like the Russians would be willing to give up any of the territory that they've taken from the Ukrainians over the past couple of years as the war has dragged on. But, of course, the reality on the ground is that the Russians still hold a lot of Ukraine's territory, but at the same time, of course, the Ukrainians also have a foothold inside Russia, in the Kursk region of Russia. And it's really unclear what exactly is going to happen there.

However, it certainly does give the impression that some of these negotiations, as far as ending the fighting on the ground there in Ukraine is concerned, could be more difficult than President Trump so far has let on. He's, of course, been saying that a lot of progress has already been made.

But the Russians have been cautioning over the past couple of days, really, the past couple of weeks, that there are certain red lines for them that could make it a lot more difficult to achieve an agreement. Pamela?

BROWN: All right. Fred Pleitgen, thank you so much.

Let's continue this conversation with CNN Political and National Security Analyst David Sanger. So, David, the U.S. and Russia will be talking about Ukraine's future in Saudi Arabia. Zelenskyy won't be participating in these talks. And then, separately, you have this emergency summit with European leaders. How does this all coalesce around a peace deal that is satisfactory to all involved?

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Pamela, I think, as Fred suggested, we are a long way from that. There are three levels of uncertainty here. So, the first is, is Vladimir Putin ready to deal? It's not at all clear he is. He probably feels as if he's got the upper hand here.

President Trump through his defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, made some preliminary concessions last week that they then had to backpedal away from those included that Ukraine would never join NATO, and that Russia would, as a practical matter, probably get the 20 percent of the country that they are currently occupying.

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Those are two of the big demands that Putin already has.

But he may well have more if you think about the demands he was making before the invasion. He may want a pullback of American forces from Western Europe. He may want a reduction of American-provided nuclear forces in Europe.

And the question is, is President Trump willing to put all those on the table? And then there's the issue you raised, which is, what kind of deal is it if Ukraine is not at the table and therefore doesn't agree to it? And what kind of deal is it if the Europeans aren't there and they're the ones whose forces may have to police this agreement?

BROWN: Does Ukraine have any leverage here?

SANGER: A little bit. I mean, if Ukraine does not agree to the deal, then there is no peace deal. Now, President Trump could turn to President Zelenskyy and say, if you don't sign, you're not getting any American aid. And if you're not getting any American aid, you're going to lose. So, President Trump has the capability of forcing Ukraine to go sign up to this deal.

But this all has to do with what the security arrangements are in it to keep the Russians from just resetting and attacking again. And the Ukrainians feel they've been deceived by the west on security guarantees before, most notably right after the Cold War.

BROWN: I'm wondering what your thoughts are from what we heard from the Russian foreign minister, implying that Moscow is unwilling to make compromises to end the war. Do you think that this is just posturing from the Russian side? I mean, the Trump administration has previously said both Russia and Ukraine will need to make compromises.

SANGER: Well, certainly, the Russians are going to want Ukraine to get out of Kursk and those areas of Russia that they've now occupied. And the Ukrainians occupied them to give themselves some leverage in any negotiation so they could trade that for some of the areas of the Donbas that the Russians now occupy. Whether they can strike that deal is a big question.

BROWN: Zelenskyy is now saying that Ukraine is open to giving the U.S. access to its rare earth minerals if they get security guarantees in return. We know that Trump has been asking for this. This comes, of course, just days after the Ukrainian president did not let one of his ministers sign a draft of an agreement that would open up those mineral deposits in return for future military aid. How big of a piece is this in your view?

SANGER: Well, it's a big piece to President Trump. You know, what ties together Greenland and the Ukraine debate here is this focus that the president has on mining rare earth minerals, mineral that would be critical to future American technologies, battery technologies included.

Mr. Zelenskyy, it's interesting, he's not holding out for money here. He's holding out for security. He's saying, look, the one thing the United States can provide me that no one else can is the ability to guarantee that the Russians don't come after the country and particularly the capital of Kyiv again. And it's going to be really interesting to see if the president is willing to sign up for that.

And if Zelenskyy would believe that the president was willing to do so, if you see American troops being pulled out of Europe and out of NATO countries, I think there would be reason to doubt whether the U.S. would be willing to aid Ukraine in a second invasion.

BROWN: David Sanger, thank you so much.

Coming up, at least 12 people are dead after severe weather swept through my home state of Kentucky and Virginia, and the threat is not over.

CNN's Danny Freeman is in Salem, Virginia, this morning. Danny?

DANNY FREEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Pamela, the winds are strong. It is bitterly cold out here, but at least it's dry for now in Southwestern Virginia. Crews, though, here and where we are assessing damage and closing roads just to make sure people are safe. We'll bring you the latest from what we just heard also from Kentucky.

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