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CNN International: U.S. And Russia Wrap Up Ukraine Talks In Saudi Arabia; Hamas Set To Release Six Living Hostages Saturday; Judge Will Not Block DOGE Access To Education Department Data; New Video Shows Monday's Crash Landing In Canada; Sources: CIA Flying Drones Into Mexico To Spy On Cartels; Pope Francis Hospitalized With Pneumonia. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired February 18, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:33]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: It's 8:00 p.m. in London, 3:00 p.m. in D.C. I'm Jim Sciutto. Thanks so much for joining me today.

And let's get right to the news.

Today's U.S. Russia summit in Saudi Arabia has ended with a partial victory for Moscow and perhaps a reprieve for Kyiv. Secretary of State Marco Rubio says the U.S. and Russia will appoint high level teams to negotiate the end of the conflict in Ukraine, which, of course, began when Russia invaded three years ago. The top U.S. diplomat says there are work -- they are working to reestablish diplomatic channels.

Seated across from the U.S. delegation, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov's team. Lavrov called the talks, quote, useful, saying it is an accomplishment that dialogue is taking place. However, today's meeting in Riyadh comes at the expense of Kyiv, which was excluded from talks on a war to end a war on its own territory. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy warned that his country will not give in to what he calls Russia's ultimatums.

Our chief national security correspondent, Alex Marquardt, is tracking the story from Riyadh.

I wonder, Alex, when you spoken to U.S. officials there, how did they explain Ukraine's absence?

ALEXANDER MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, essentially, that this question about whether the Ukrainians should be at the table, they will tell you -- well, there is no table that the table needs to be set, essentially, that these are preliminary conversations with the Russian side. This is essentially to get the engagement going with Russia again after three years of a freeze.

Now, critics of the Trump administration, Jim, would say, well, you're bringing the Russians in from the cold. We have been shunning them for the past three years because they have invaded Ukraine. The administration response to that is, well, how are we going to get to a peace deal if we don't also talk to the adversaries as well as our friends? Now, the Americans went in to today's talks. They lasted 4.5 hours at

a palace here in Riyadh. The Saudis were sitting at the table, but the Americans went in largely focused on Ukraine, while the Russians went into this with a broader set of agenda items in mind. And essentially, what we saw emerge after the meeting was the U.S. saying, okay, we can get to those other things, but we need to get through this issue of Ukraine first.

The U.S. did not put down anything that was hard and fast. They didn't talk about yes or no. There will be troops in Ukraine or not, or what the security guarantees will look like, what the territorial concessions will look like. There were no concrete decisions or statements on the American side.

The Russians were a bit more rigid, mind you. After the meeting, Sergey Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, said that Russia cannot accept Ukraine in NATO and cannot accept NATO troops in Ukraine. He said that that would be unacceptable.

So what the Americans walked away with essentially was an agreement on four different points. One was a really operational point, Jim, as you know, in the past three years, the embassies in Moscow and Washington are not functioning like normal embassies. Their staff levels have been reduced dramatically as each country has kicked out diplomats and spies from each other's missions. And so they have said that they will start rebuilding those embassies and getting them to a functioning level.

And then there's the Ukraine part of it. Each side has said that they will name a senior level delegation, a team of senior officials, to attack this question of how to solve the problem in Ukraine. And then there's like a carrot element to this, essentially a potential reward for the Russians saying that there's the possibility of historic economic and investment opportunities should the war in Ukraine be solved.

The Americans did push back on this criticism about the Europeans and Ukrainians not being at the table. Mike Waltz, national security advisor, saying there are daily engagements with those sides. But we are simply not there yet.

The last thing, Jim, the Ukraine envoy, Keith Kellogg, he is in Ukraine this week engaging with Ukrainians. Of course, at some point the Americans hope to join up these two efforts and get both sides to the table -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Well, we should note the Europeans are concerned enough that they've convened an emergency meeting to discuss negotiations that they see happening outside their purview here, despite the fact that they have -- they are in a treaty alliance with the U.S. and, of course, concern that Ukraine -- that Ukraine is not involved in these talks.

How have administration officials responded to those very hard questions from their closest allies in Europe?

[15:05:05]

MARQUARDT: Well, by saying that we are engaging with them. The national security advisor pointed to the conversation yesterday between President Macron and Trump. You have Keir Starmer from -- from the Great Britain coming to Washington, D.C. next week.

What set everything off was comments over the weekend by Keith Kellogg, the Ukraine envoy, saying, no, there is no place for the Europeans at the table. Since then, Jim, in the past few days, that has softened. We have heard Marco Rubio saying, of course, there is a role for the Europeans here, the Europeans, for example, have put sanctions on the Russians.

And I would note that the European Union is right to be upset, of course, because they have given more aid to Ukraine than the United States has.

So what the U.S. is essentially saying at this point is we are trying to get these conversations going with the Russians. Yes, the Europeans will be included. And, of course, the biggest question over all of this, Jim, is when you end the war in Ukraine, what do the security guarantees look like?

And it sounds like the U.S. is backing off that, and they want the Europeans to take the lead, you know, whether it's peacekeeping troops or making sure that the Russians don't invade Ukraine again in the future. So the U.S. will definitely need to bring the Europeans into this conversation at some point. They just felt like at this point, let's get this conversation started with the Russians. And then farther down the line, we will have more voices at the table.

Essentially, the argument is this is very early days. This is a very long process. Let's just get started here.

SCIUTTO: Well, listen, European officials are openly questioning now whether the U.S. is still a reliable partner in terms of taking a lead in guaranteeing Europe's own security despite those treaty commitments. So the questions remain quite pointed.

Alex Marquardt in Riyadh, thanks so much.

So as the U.S., at least, the Trump administration appears to be welcoming Russia back in from the cold, it is using incentives, Russia has arrived at this moment without having to concede anything, and instead has a list of demands for Ukraine, which, of course, it invaded three years ago.

Before the talks, Russia's ambassador to the U.S. said Ukraine needs to cede more territory and should become a demilitarized neutral state, not part of any blocs or alliances. He also said the U.K. and E.U. should not be part of any agreement, and that President Volodymyr Zelenskyy should be removed from office.

CNN's senior international correspondent Fred Pleitgen, he has been tracking all of this from Moscow. And I wonder, based on the folks you're speaking to there, but also

the coverage there in Russia, do they see these face to face talks with the Americans as a victory for Russia's positions and interests?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I think they certainly would. I think they see it as a victory. And I think they also see it as something that is very important to them as well.

It's really hard to describe the optimism that you're feeling right now here in Moscow, but certainly also among the negotiators that the Russians had at the table there today at that meeting in Riyadh, Russia, certainly feeling that they are back on the scene internationally, diplomatically, if you will, and that they are getting good vibes from the Trump administration as well. It was interesting because all of the negotiators that the Russians sent in are the chief negotiators, Yuri Ushakov, senior Kremlin aide, but also the foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov, said that they felt that the two sides were really listening to one another. They feel that the Trump administration is really understanding them.

And if you listen to politicians here in Moscow, senior officials, you know, some of them will say that they do believe that they have a very good inroad right now with the Trump administration and in some cases, even feel as though the Trump administration on some issues is closer to them than they are to their own European allies and to the Ukrainians as well. So the Russians, certainly feeling that things are at least could be going their way fairly soon.

One of the things that Alex said is absolutely correct, the Russians obviously seeing all of this in a broader context. One of the things that the chief Russian negotiator said, even when landing on the ground in Riyadh, is saying that the Russians want normalization of relations between Russia and the United States, that obviously, first and foremost means sanctions relief for the Russians, also, diplomatic and economic relations as well.

The issue of solving the Ukraine war sort of lower down the priority list for the Russians. But of course, it's something that they know they are going to have to tackle at some point in time. However, as Alex said, it's completely correct. The Russians are saying that there are many red lines to them.

One of the main ones being possible NATO membership for Ukraine. And I want you to listen in to what Sergey Lavrov, the foreign minister, had to say today after the negotiations. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SERGEY LAVROV, RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: We explained to our colleagues today what President Putin has repeatedly stressed, that the expansion of NATO, the absorption of Ukraine by the north Atlantic alliance is a direct threat to the interests of the Russian federation, a direct threat to our sovereignty.

(END VIDEO CLIP) PLEITGEN: A direct threat to the sovereignty of Russia, as he put it.

The other thing that the Russians are also saying, Jim, is that they basically don't want to cede any of the territory that they've already taken in Ukraine.

[15:10:02]

Yesterday, when I asked Sergey Lavrov about that, he gave a long answer about all the things that Ukraine has actually done in those -- had allegedly done in those territories, and why the Russians wouldn't give it back. And then you have the final issue, which is a big issue, of course, and that is the territory that Ukraine still holds on the Russian side of the border and the Kursk region the Russians there also unequivocally saying they don't want that to be part of any sort of negotiations. They either want to take that militarily or otherwise want to expel the Ukrainians from that territory -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Fred Pleitgen in Moscow, thanks so much.

So joining me now is Tymofiy Mylovanov, president of the Kyiv School of Economics, a former Ukrainian minister of economic development, trade and agriculture, joining us now from Kyiv.

Thanks so much. Tymofiy.

Remarkable statement there from our correspondent in Moscow saying that the Russian view is that the Trump administration's view of this war may be closer to Moscow's than to that of its own allies in Europe, but also to Ukraine. I imagine that description must strike fear in the hearts of Ukrainians if the U.S. president has more affinity with Russia on this war than Europe or Ukraine?

TYMOFIY MYLOVANOV, PRESIDENT, KYIV SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS: Well, Russia will say that, you know, if they can. So far, what has happened is that the U.S. administration, Trump and his team have not challenged Russia on anything. They are trying to sort of get them to the table and letting them make all the demands possible. And we are seeing the same in Russia.

So Russia is trying to be sweet and kind to the U.S. administration. That's a kind of honeymoon. Now, does this honeymoon mean, that Ukraine will be sold out to Russia or Europe will be sold out to Russia? There is definitely an apprehension that that might be the case.

But luckily for all of us, this is not just the people in the capitals who decide the future of the nations, but they can impose more hardship and more death, unfortunately.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this. If the U.S. does, if this administration does, in effect, sell out Ukraine or push Ukraine to accept a deal that Ukrainian leaders and the Ukrainian people don't want to accept, in your view, does Ukraine have the wherewithal to refuse and say no?

MYLOVANOV: Yes. Well, yes, something has to be given to Ukraine, and the only thing Ukraine cares about is security guarantees, meaningful security guarantees that Russia cannot move on and re-invade in the future. If that is not given, what kind of deal?

What's the upside, you know, for -- for Ukraine, just to give more territory and, reduce its military? No support, no funding, no weapons? I mean, we can as well say no because, it looks like it's not a status quo. It's worse than before.

SCIUTTO: Okay. That's a reasonable position, I imagine if -- if, however, the U.S. is not prepared to give security guarantees because as you know, there were some of this administration who and even Trump has some sometimes -- sometimes echoed this rhetoric in effect blamed that discussion of NATO membership for the invasion.

If the U.S. were to say no security guarantees or no security guarantees to your satisfaction, Ukraine satisfaction, do you believe that that Europe can replace the U.S., provide enough security guarantee to give Ukraine what it needs? Or is it just too small?

MYLOVANOV: Well, you know, I might be an optimist. I think, personally that Trump is playing Russia a little bit. I mean, everyone is trying to play each other.

So the security guarantees will come through after Europeans will step up. So -- but if Trump doesn't come through, I think Europe can replace part of it. Let's say 70 to 80 percent, enough for Ukraine to hold, but it's definitely not the same as with the U.S.

SCIUTTO: So are you hopeful now then, or do you think you're rightfully optimistic?

MYLOVANOV: I'm actually more optimistic than two or three months ago, because -- well, it's a longer conversation. But to put it short, yes. I'm optimistic. I think people underestimate President Trump. And he is going to come up with some solution, which is not going to be very -- very, you know, happy ending for everyone. Russia will have to sacrifice something. Ukraine will have to sacrifice something. And it's very likely that Europe will have to increase defense spending and maybe even put troops on the ground to Ukraine.

SCIUTTO: That would be quite a development. Tymofiy Mylovanov, we hope you have a safe evening there in Kyiv.

Well, Israel's foreign minister says that Israel could begin delayed negotiations on the second phase of the ceasefire and hostage deal with Hamas this week, after having discussions with U.S. officials.

[15:15:11]

Gideon Saar said Israel is committed to reaching an agreement on phase two by the 42nd day of the current truce as required, but he did not rule out a return to war if negotiations are not, quote, effective. He calls the possibility of a longer term agreement an option.

We are learning new details about the expected release of hostages this week from Gaza. Hamas says it will return the dead bodies of four Israelis on Thursday. This includes the youngest of the hostages, Kefir and Ariel Bibas. Their faces have become such a face, sadly, of this war. They were just nine months and four months old when they were kidnapped on October 7th.

Israel has not publicly confirmed their deaths. Hamas says it will also release six living Israeli hostages on Saturday. This in exchange once again for Palestinian prisoners. They include two men who've been held for a decade in Gaza after they crossed the border on their own.

Joining us now from Jerusalem, CNN senior -- international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson.

Nic, thanks so much.

There's been a lot of concern at each stage of even this first phase of this agreement that it could stumble at any time. But -- but from where you're sitting, are you now seeing some optimism that the second phase might come together?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Not really actually. In fact, the opposite. I attended that press briefing with the foreign minister today and tried to press him on when precisely the second phase of negotiation was going to start, and he said this week he wouldn't give a precise date. It's already two weeks late.

And speaking to an Israeli official today, that official told me what they're actually trying to do. What the government is trying to do is trying not to get into phase two negotiations, is trying to stay with phase one, lengthen phase one so that they can get more living hostages released now.

So you have, on the one hand, the Israeli government sort of slow rolling the progression towards phase two. You have last week Hamas trying to set everything off track by saying it wouldn't release hostages and then changing its mind and releasing three last week. And now they're set to release 14, the return of remains of four this week. On Thursday, the returns of six living hostages Saturday and four more remains of hostages to be returned next week.

That would be all the hostages that Hamas was committed to releasing the 33, way before the deadline, March the 2nd. You know, not for the first time, Israel and Hamas are sort of going in opposite directions. And what Israel, you know, the threat for the prime minister, obviously, in going for phase two, because phase two is an end to the war. There are people in his cabinet that don't want an end to the war. So there are many, many dynamics at play.

But I think for the nation right now, they're really braced for that very, very painful day on Thursday when there will be reminded of those absolutely heartbreaking images of Ariel Bibas trying to protect four-year-old Ariel and nine-month-old Kfir under a blanket as she is being taken hostage. And the nation went through some of that trauma just a couple of weeks ago, when her husband Yarden was returned alive from Gaza to be greeted by the news that he didn't know that the understanding and the high expectation was his wife and two sons were dead. This really is going to be a terribly difficult moment for the nation

on Thursday, Jim.

SCIUTTO: No question. That poor father.

Nic Robertson in Jerusalem, thanks so much.

Still ahead, we do have new information about the plane crash in Toronto, in which a Delta flight flipped over on landing. Remarkably, everyone survived, though 21 on board were injured.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:22:16]

SCIUTTO: There's been a legal setback in the effort to stop Elon Musk's cost cutting DOGE team from accessing sensitive data. Federal judge in Washington will allow DOGE to check data from the U.S. Department of Education. A group of financial aid students had asked for protection for their personal information.

DOGE also tried to access sensitive data from the IRS, the Internal Revenue Service. This is happening right in the middle of tax filing season here in the U.S. There are concerns about disruption shutting down the system, as well as the privacy rights of more than 100 million people and businesses.

Paula Reid joins us now.

So this was one win in terms of access here. I know there's -- there are so many cases to keep track of. Where does it stand more broadly? I mean, is DOGE in effect pushing in a lot of different directions and getting through on many, most of them?

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. It's been interesting to see over the past few days. DOGE has racked up several legal victories.

Now I want to dig in a little bit deeper on this most recent one that you just mentioned, because this is an Obama-appointed judge here in Washington, Judge Randy Moss. He was being asked by students who, like you said, received financial aid from the department of education to protect their data. But the judge ruled that they had not shown that they had been harmed by DOGE's access to this data. And that is why he is not blocking access.

And this is the third time in recent days where emergency lawsuits trying to block DOGE from accessing various sets of data based on privacy concerns have failed. But the door is still open. If these plaintiffs, these challengers can show eventually that their data was somehow improperly shared or compromised, they can always come back to the courts.

Now we're also waiting on at least two other challenges related to DOGE and access to sensitive information. One is in New York. It's a coalition of state attorneys general. They are trying to block DOGE from accessing treasury data.

Now, the judge in New York has temporarily blocked that. There was a hearing late last week, but its unclear if the judge is going to make that block that injunction permanent. So, watching that one very closely.

Also, another case here in New York that we expect a decision on at any moment. A challenge, again, by Democratic state attorneys general to block DOGE from accessing information or doing anything that could change the disbursement of public funds, dispose of government property or cancel government contracts.

So that goes a little bit beyond the privacy concerns. And that is also being overseen by Judge Tanya Chutkan, who handled Trump's criminal case related to January 6th. So we continue to watch. But I mean, it is important to note DOGE is now just in recent days, even though there was that flurry of court activity that temporarily paused a lot of their activity, we are seeing them start to prevail in some of these challenges.

[15:25:09]

SCIUTTO: How about on the other category of cases which relate to firings, right, as well as this offer of buyouts, when there are clear questions as to where that money would come from? Where do the legal challenges stand there?

REID: Yeah. Well, what's interesting is the big buyout case that we were all watching that was out of Boston, and we saw the judge last week ruled that that buyout can go forward. The judge said that the unions that had filed challenges on behalf of their members did not have what is called standing or the right to sue. They too, had not shown harm. So that buyout offer was allowed to go forward.

And as you may remember, the administration decided to roughly within an hour of that decision coming down. And the deadline for that buyout and say, if you didn't accept by 7:00 p.m., you can no longer accept.

Now, there are other challenges to firings. And depending on the class of individual, be it an inspector general, for example, there are rules around how to terminate them versus a career, civil servants versus people who are in probationary status. There are a lot of different cases making their way through the courts. We don't have really a clear pattern or clear answers there.

SCIUTTO: Paula Reid, we know you'll keep following it. Thanks so much.

We are learning new details about the moment a Delta jet flipped over while landing at the airport in Toronto. New video obtained by TMZ shows the plane landing flames and what appears to be the wing touching the runway there. The crash happened Monday as the regional jet was arriving from the U.S. at Toronto's Pearson International Airport. Eighty people were on board.

Remarkably, when you see that video, everyone survived, though 21 people were taken to hospitals for injuries, most now released. Joining us now from Toronto is Brian Todd.

Brian, are there -- are there any early indications as to what led to this? Because I also believe that that the video has shown that the landing gear collapsed on impact.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right, Jim. They're still looking into some of that. And what happened with the landing gear? Whether the landing was kind of a standard form landing and whether it was done according to, you know, what pilots are trained to do.

Now, another big question is what factor did the weather play in this crash? According to Deborah Flint, the president and CEO of Toronto Pearson International Airport, she said earlier today she would not actually go there. When she was asked directly, did -- did weather cause this crash? Was it a key factor in the crash?

But what she did say was this, that on Thursday, which was the 13th of February and on Sunday the 16th of February, on those two days they had more than 20 inches of snow in the -- on the ground here from two separate systems that came through here. And that was more snow that they had, I think, in the last year combined, I believe is what they said.

So while they wouldn't say whether weather played a factor in the crash, they did say that that was an inordinate amount of snow that came through here last Thursday the 13th and the day before the crash, Sunday the 16th.

A couple of other things we learned today, Jim, from first responders and from Deborah Flint, the CEO of the airport, was that when first responders first got to the plane, when it came to a stop, they had to put out some spot fires there. It only took them a couple of minutes to get out to the spot where the plane was, because they had first responders already in place here at Toronto Airport.

But when they got there, they had to put out some spot fires. And then Todd Aitken, the fire chief of the Toronto airport, was asked, well, then what did you do to try to get the passengers out? Take us through that whole process. And he said, actually, most of the passengers self evacuated from the plane. A lot of them were hanging upside down.

One of the passengers said we were hanging upside down like bats, but most of them were able to kind of unbuckle and get themselves on to the roof of the plane, which was the floor at that point, and get out. But they had to some of them had to help each other out.

But he said that basically all the passengers, those who were not seriously injured, could self evacuate, Jim.

I think you mentioned in your intro, you had 21 people injured, 19 of them have been released from the hospital. Two of them remain in the hospital with non-life threatening injuries. That plane is still on the tarmac where it came to a stop upside down. As investigators continue their on site investigation here and it will remain in place, according to Deborah Flint, for at least the next 48 hours. And she did say that at least two runways are going to be closed for at least the next 48 hours.

So, Jim, still a lot of flight disruptions and other problems here at the airport as a result of this crash.

SCIUTTO: Listen, I'll tell you, I was in Montreal over the weekend, 24 hours of snow there, many flights canceled, heavy winds, just really difficult conditions.

TODD: Right.

SCIUTTO: Brian Todd there in Toronto, thanks so much.

Coming up, more on the talks between the U.S. and the Kremlin, an attempt to end Russia's ongoing invasion of Ukraine. I'm going to be joined by a co-chair of the bipartisan congressional Ukraine Caucus, Representative Mike Quigley, to discuss where he sees this deal going and what he'd like to see in any agreement.

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[15:33:21]

SCIUTTO: We continue our coverage of the talks in Riyadh to discuss the end of Russia's ongoing war on Ukraine. The meeting between the U.S. and Russia is now ended, seen by many as a partial victory for Russia.

As of now, the U.S. and Russia are promising to appoint high level teams to negotiate the end of the war. U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio said concessions will have to be made by all sides while he sat on one side of the table, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov on the other, Ukraine nowhere to be seen. The Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, was supposed to visit Riyadh on Wednesday, but has since said he's postponed his trip to next month. His warning, his country will not give in to what he calls Russia's ultimatums and negotiations will not happen behind the backs of Ukraine.

Before Tuesday's talks in Saudi Arabia, Russia launched a series of drone attacks on Ukraine, continuing its ongoing war against the country. Ukraine's air force said it launched nearly 200 drones.

CNN international correspondent Nick Paton Walsh joins us now from Kyiv.

And, Nick, I know you've been speaking to Ukrainians there. How do they see these talks? Do they see them as being abandoned, in effect, excluded from talks on their own country's future?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Jim, you're joining me actually, we don't obviously show you live images from behind me during an incident like this, but, the noise you can hear is air defenses over central Kyiv. And while were not here constantly, this is the closest the center I've heard for quite some time.

[15:35:05] And it comes after a significant barrage last night. Let me just pause, let you hear that.

It comes after a significant barrage last night where 176 Iranian designed or made Shahed drones were intercepted over all of Ukraine. And we don't know the scale or scope of this now. But it's a clear reminder of the persistent threat that Ukrainians face every night, particularly here in the capital. And it's a matter of hours until the Trump administrations, Ukraine and Russia envoy.

I can hear drones above me here. I'm just going to step in, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Go inside because from that because that does sound like the engine of a drone.

WALSH: I'm going to pull the curtains, if you don't mind.

SCIUTTO: Please do. Please do.

WALSH: (INAUDIBLE) drone.

I'm just going to pull the curtain here. There's a light discipline issue with us, obviously here, as I saw, were just bring this indoors.

SCIUTTO: Yeah. Get and get behind something. Having been in that situation before. Get behind something.

It struck me, Nick, that that sounded like.

WALSH: I just try and continue this with you indoors.

SCIUTTO: It sounded like automatic gunfire. Anti-aircraft, which is, I imagine, what you would hear directed at drones as opposed to missile defenses which -- which go -- go against ballistic missiles, et cetera.

WALSH: Yeah, obviously, we don't want to go too much into detail as to the specifics of what we're hearing around here, because obviously we've known in the past that the Russians have observed live footage, but that appears to have passed by us a while back. And I know from speaking to some of the anti-aircraft units we've worked at the northern border that mostly drones are pre-programmed to a specific point.

But yeah, we've heard there are significant air defenses over and above. And I just as I was saying before we moved in, it's a matter of hours until General Keith Kellogg, the Ukraine and Russia envoy for the Trump administration comes very much to here to central Kyiv. And so that noise, as I say, a reminder of what Ukrainians face every single night across the country, that it persists and that there are no means that the discussions we've heard in Riyadh reduces the threat to ordinary civilian life here inside of Ukraine every single night.

But sorry, Jim, let's go back to discussing what we were talking about beforehand, and the outcome of those talks in Riyadh very much a U.S.- Russia summit. It seems that the Russians probably emerged from those meetings emboldened by the idea that their hope of a wider deal over the security situation between NATO, the U.S. as a whole, and their position within Europe was more on the table, and that Ukraine seems to be an issue that they've given to negotiators for separate side talks elsewhere.

But it left Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, clearly angry, frankly, from the statement we heard from him, a matter of hours after we heard from Secretary of State Rubio, National Security Adviser Mike Waltz, and, U.S. Middle East envoy Steve Witkoff. He said -- he wasn't going to Saudi Arabia anymore. Has been planned for tomorrow, and that that would be delayed until the middle of March.

It was never really meant to be on paper associated with the U.S.- Russia summit. But I think there had been some hopes, that he might eventually catch the entrails of that or meet people emerging from it, or get some diplomatic idea of what had occurred. He obviously seemed a little angry that Ukraine had been discussed without Ukraine, and wanted to reinforce the message that they weren't going to tolerate that sort of peace process without Ukraine being at the table, but I think it's remarkable to hear Washington and Moscow discuss beefing up their respective embassies after so long isolation.

Remember, those diplomats were expelled because of the Russian intelligence attempts to kill Sergei Skripal, a former Russian spy who defected to the United Kingdom was attacked with a nerve agent, a weapons grade one that could have killed hundreds, potentially had its use not been more restrained by British authorities. And so, a sign of the Russian rehabilitation, certainly in the eyes of the public, if not American diplomacy as well.

But what you've been seeing behind us, Jim, now, clearly a sign of the consistent threat against ordinary Ukrainians every single night.

SCIUTTO: No question, no question. Nick, keep yourself and your team safe. We appreciate you bringing us a view from the ground.

Joining us now is Congressman Mike Quigley. He's a Democrat from Illinois, co-chair of the bipartisan congressional Ukraine Caucus.

Congressman, thanks so much for taking the time.

REP. MIKE QUIGLEY (D-IL): Good to be back. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: So quite a remarkable moment there. I ask our Kyiv correspondent for Ukraine's reaction to the to the peace talks in Riyadh. And as he's giving that answer, another Russian drone comes in one of close to 200 Ukraine says Russia fired overnight.

[15:40:08]

Do you consider Russia serious about peace right now?

QUIGLEY: I don't think they have to be serious about peace. I think they're getting clear indications from an extraordinarily dark, isolationist Trump administration that they don't have to worry about this. The first kick here was when they eliminated USAID. I guess if it's a

three legged stool that helps Ukraine, that's certainly an important part of the leg. And then not inviting Zelenskyy, probably sitting down with Zelenskyy first. When we talk about peace talks, the country that was, you know, actually invaded here, I think gives Putin an understanding that he's in no rush here and that at this point in time, he has a friend in the White House.

SCIUTTO: Is Ukraine left out in the cold here? I know there is some discussion among European leaders about filling that void that you described there of American leadership on Ukraine. Are they capable of doing so?

QUIGLEY: No, I've extraordinary concerns about Europe's capabilities, that the war did anything, it sort of pulled back the veneer of U.S. and NATO capabilities. At this point, I'm concerned about Europe's capabilities from a military point of view. Their military industrial base has not kept pace with its needs, particularly involving Ukraine. And the therefore, the threats to them, their financial picture isn't extraordinarily strong.

I think it was General Romanenko from Ukraine who said they'd probably last six months and that without U.S. aid and that Europe can't possibly make up the difference on its own.

SCIUTTO: You heard -- I -- you may have heard earlier in this hour, I spoke to a former economic adviser to the Ukrainian government who is holding out hope that perhaps President Trump won't give in to Russian demands here and that he will manage to get a deal out of this. That gives Ukraine most of what its looking for in terms of its security.

Do you have confidence in Trump's leadership on this?

QUIGLEY: Absolutely not. He said nothing to give you any sort of hope in that vein. And let's understand here the difference between what Trump might do and what actually would seem fair in the real world.

It's not just restoring the land that was lost, it's who's going to pay to rebuild Ukraine.

SCIUTTO: Yeah.

QUIGLEY: Who's going to hold Putin accountable for the war crimes? I was there four times since the war started. I -- as you understand, you have been there, stood on the mass graves at Bucha, was in previously occupied territories where those war crimes took place. Who's going to provide security assurances when the defense secretary basically just told NATO, you're on your own and we're not going to do that?

And if you're Ukraine, would you believe anybody at this point, given there's a long history from Budapest on of people not fulfilling those security assurances?

SCIUTTO: Yeah. You, of course, sit on a bipartisan Ukraine Caucus. And there has been bipartisan support in the U.S. Congress since the start of this full scale invasion for Ukraine. Do you see any of your Republican colleagues with the willingness to stand up to the Trump administration if it tries to force a peace deal down the throats of the Ukrainians or the Europeans, that your Republican colleagues don't find acceptable? Or -- or would you expect them to line up.

QUIGLEY: You know, I've seen some of the comments made by my Republican colleagues on the Senate side and the House side. Some of them are really good friends of mine. I -- I believe them when they when they say they're going to stand up to the Trump administration.

What concerns me is when we did the supplementals to help Ukraine defend itself, those vote totals, the Republicans lost. In other words, there were more Republicans voting against supporting Ukraine than -- than there were those supporting it. So what -- what are we talking about? We're talking about the Reagan doctrine of defending our allies against Soviet at the time of aggression, right?

The Reagan doctrine is dead in the Republican Party. So I believe, my friends, when they say they're going to stand up to Trump, will there be enough? Will they be loud enough? Will they be significant enough? It's a genuine concern.

SCIUTTO: No question. Of course, president has enormous power to make foreign policy decisions on his own.

[15:45:04]

Congressman Mike Quigley, thanks so much for joining.

QUIGLEY: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Coming up, U.S. spy drones now flying over Mexico. What we're learning about the CIA's covert efforts to track drug cartels across the border.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Now to Mexico, where the CIA has been flying covert drone missions over Mexico to spy on drug cartels. This according to multiple sources to CNN. It's part of Trump's move to push security assets to America's southern border. It comes amid a effort, as well, to designate drug cartels as terrorist organizations.

CNN's Natasha Bertrand has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Current and former officials familiar with the program told us that the CIA, under President Trump, has been covertly flying MQ-9 Reaper drones over Mexico to spy on drug cartels. Part of Trump's dramatic reorientation of national security assets to the U.S. southern border.

Now, CNN has previously reported that the U.S. military was flying spy planes in international airspace to monitor these cartels. But these drones are actually flying over Mexico and inside Mexican airspace, which is a significant development.

These more recent flights were also communicated to Congress by the Trump administration, using a particular notification that is reserved for new or updated covert programs that the CIA intends either to conceal or deny.

Now, this is also all part of a broader strategy to shift intelligence community resources toward combating cartels, which the administration is also preparing to designate as foreign terrorist organizations.

And this planning started even before Trump took office. We actually obtained a 30-page Trump transition planning document that called for treating counter drug cartel work as a, quote, form of counterterrorism, and called for using those authorities and unique resources appropriately, including by moving them from other regions if necessary.

[15:50:07]

Now, these MQ-9 drones that are being used for the missions, they're not currently armed, but they can be equipped with payloads to carry out precision strikes, which the U.S. regularly does to target suspected terrorists in Syria, Iraq and Somalia. When we asked the CIA for comment, a spokesperson declined to comment specifically about the drone missions, but said that broadly, quote, countering drug cartels in Mexico and regionally is a priority for CIA, as part of the Trump administration's broader efforts to end the grave threat from narco trafficking. Director Ratcliffe is determined to put CIA's unique expertise to work against this multifaceted challenge.

Now, these drone missions, they also come, of course, amid heightened tensions between the U.S. and Mexican government, especially as Mexican officials are already fielding questions about why the military's spy planes have been flying missions so close to their own border in recent weeks.

And Mexican President Claudia Sheinbaum and other senior Mexican officials, they have emphasized in recent days the importance of sovereignty and intelligence sharing. And they've also noted that the U.S. spy plane flights are occurring in international airspace. But obviously, these drone missions are taking place in Mexican airspace itself.

So when we asked Mexican officials for comment, they did not respond about any of this or whether they're even aware of these drone flights at all.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Natasha Bertrand, quite a development. Thanks so much.

After the break, we are live in Rome, where Pope Francis has now been hospitalized and diagnosed with pneumonia.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) SCIUTTO: Well, the news from the Vatican, Pope Francis has now been diagnosed with pneumonia. The Vatican gave an update on his health just a short time ago. The 88-year-old pontiff continues to be treated for a respiratory infection.

Joining us now from Rome is CNN's Vatican correspondent, Christopher Lamb.

Christopher, I wonder how serious you're hearing this is.

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, this is a concerning development. It comes at the end of the fifth day of the pope's day the Gemelli Hospital behind me. A lot of people in the Vatican feared that the bronchitis at the pope was suffering for several days before his hospitalization would turn in to pneumonia. And that fear has now been realized.

The Vatican, saying that the pope has pneumonia in both of his lungs. He has this complex, polymicrobial respiratory tract infection that is requiring different kinds of treatment.

[15:55:07]

The treatment for the pope has already been altered on two occasions, and he is continuing to receive that treatment in the Gemelli Hospital. We don't know how long the pope is going to be spending here in hospital. There's no clear timetable the Vatican has canceled his public events.

We are told that the 88-year-old pope is in good spirits. People here at the Gemelli behind me have been praying for the pope. We will be monitoring developments as they come in -- in the coming days -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Christopher Lamb, we certainly send our -- our thoughts to the pope and to those around him. Christopher Lamb there in Rome, thanks so much.

And thanks so much to all of you for joining me today. Of course, as always, there is much more news on my friend Richard Quest's show "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS", which is up next.