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CNN International: Trump's Russia-Ukraine Envoy Keith Kellogg Arrives in Kyiv; Zelenskyy Says Trump Lives in This Disinformation Space; Russia and U.S. Exclude Ukraine and Europe From Talks; Trump Signs Orders Giving White House More Control Over Agencies Congress Set Up to Act Independently; Pope Francis Diagnosed With Pneumonia in Both Lungs; Hamas to Release Four Deceased, Six Living Hostages; Flight Recorders Recovered From Crashed Delta Plane in Toronto; Kentucky Hit by Heavy Snow While Grappling With Deadly Flooding; DOGE Scrambled to Recall Fired Nuclear Security Workers; NASCAR Eyes Clean Energy With Push for Electric Vehicles. Aired 8-9a ET
Aired February 19, 2025 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[08:00:00]
ELENI GIOKOS, CNN CO-ANCHOR OF "CNN NEWSROOM": Hello and welcome to all our viewers all around the world. I'm Eleni Giokos and this is "CNN Newsroom". Just ahead, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy says his country is not for sale, one day after U.S. and Russian officials met without Ukraine. We'll have all the details and reaction this hour. Plus, the Vatican says Pope Francis is fighting pneumonia in both lungs. We are live outside the Pontus Hospital in Rome. And NASCAR envisions a future full of electric vehicles. But will President Trump's agenda stall the push for Net Zero emissions?
Welcome to the show. An American special envoy has arrived in Kyiv for crucial talks as the leaders of Ukraine and the U.S. engage in a public spat. Keith Kellogg is in Ukraine one day after the U.S. and Russia held talks in Saudi Arabia to discuss ending the war in Ukraine, but there was no seat at the table for Ukraine. Kellogg says his mission is to listen to Kyiv's concerns.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEITH KELLOGG, U.S. RUSSIA -UKRAINE SPECIAL ENVOY: We understand the need for security guarantees. (inaudible) It's very clear to us that the importance of sovereignty of this nation and defense of this nation as well. And we're going to -- and part of my mission is to sit and listen and say, OK, what are your concerns? Where are we at? So we can go back to the United States, talk to President Trump and with Secretary Rubio and the rest of the team, and just ensure that we -- that we get this one right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GIOKOS: Well, this as Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy accuses President Trump of repeating disinformation coming from Russia. Here he is responding to President Trump's remarks last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) Volodymyr Zelenskyy, Ukrainian President (through translator): Unfortunately, President Trump, I have great respect for him as a leader of a nation that we have great respect for the American people who always support us, unfortunately, lives in this disinformation space.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GIOKOS: On Tuesday, the U.S. president falsely blamed Ukraine for starting the conflict with Russia, echoing Moscow's talking points.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I think I have the power to end his war, and I think it's going very well. But today, I heard, oh, well, we weren't invited. Well, you've been there for three years. You should have ended it in three years. You should have never started it. You could have made a deal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GIOKOS: Russia's foreign minister is praising Mr. Trump. The Kremlin says, talks between President Trump and Russian President Putin could take place by the end of this month. CNN's Nick Paton Walsh filed this report from Kyiv.
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Ultimately, they have little choice, obviously, but to have faith in everything that they speak to General Keith Kellogg about during his likely three-day visit here, feeds back to the President of the United States and influences his decision. He arrived early morning at a railway station here, and I asked him what his message would be, and he did say, look, part of this is going to be about listening, but also about security guarantees. And that is something we hear again from the United States.
But at the same time, it does appear that their policy is less American military involvement. Certainly, no boots on the ground here too. But he was also asked, President Zelenskyy, in a later press conference about the remarks we heard last night from Trump -- President Trump himself suggesting that Zelenskyy himself had very low poll ratings of 4 percent, and indeed also suggesting that some of the weapons sent to Ukraine have indeed gone missing.
Now, this of course increases that sense of tension, I think it is fair to say between Trump and Zelenskyy on a day in which Trump's envoy finally arrives here. Zelenskyy went on to say the meeting in Saudi Arabia had indeed ended the long isolation of Putin by Trump's predecessor, the Biden Administration. So, a lot of really steep questions to be answered here. The issue of security guarantees foremount, certainly, when it comes to conversations he'll be having, with General Kellogg and really a heartfelt plea from Zelenskyy.
When I asked him what security guarantees look like, he said, send us air defenses. If you don't want to send us boots on the ground, then use your ships. Send us Patriot missiles, so we can defend ourselves. Increasing air attacks nightly here in Ukraine, that's the civilian toll that so often referred to, but I think a real sense of Zelenskyy standing certainly up for Ukraine's interests here, knocking aside the notion of his polling being so low.
[08:05:00]
He said it was 57 percent and maybe presenting in the weeks ahead, data to consolidate that elections are very tricky issue to contemplate during wartime. But that sense, I think of increasingly fraught relationship building, particularly after Saudi Arabia.
GIOKOS: Well, that was CNN's Nick Paton Walsh reporting from Kyiv, Ukraine for us. Now, for more on the fallout from yesterday's talks, let's bring in CNN's Alex Marquardt, who filed this report from Riyadh.
ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: These latest comments from President Trump will go to the deepest fears that the Ukrainians and the Europeans have about how President Trump views this conflict, concerns that he may be playing into President Putin's hand at this critical moment. They came just hours after these historic talks between the U.S. and Russian delegations here at a palace in Riyadh. The U.S. side said that they were solid and positive. The Russian side said that they were useful. Both viewing this as a jumping off point to essentially reset the U.S.-Russian relationship after it being frozen for the past three years.
Now, the U.S. delegation said that there were no specific positions or decisions that were made when it comes to Ukraine, that this is really the beginning of the process that could take some time. Here's Secretary of State Marco Rubio.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARCO RUBIO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: We have to understand that it's been three-and-a-half years since there's been any sort of regularized contact between the United States and Russia and in some cases, between any of the participants in this conflict and Russia. So the goal of today's meeting was to follow up on the phone call the president had a week ago and begin to establish those lines of communication. The work remains. Today is the first step of a long and difficult journey.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARQUARDT: Rubio also outlined four general agreements that were struck with the Russians. The first is that both sides will try to get their embassies in Washington and Moscow back up to normal levels, essentially normalizing diplomatic relations after many diplomats and spies have been kicked out of each embassy over the past few years.
The second point was specific to Ukraine, that both the Russians and the Americans would designate high-level officials to be part of the negotiating team over an end to the Ukraine war.
And then the third, and perhaps most interesting point, looked past the end of the Ukraine war, essentially a carrot, a potential prize for the Russians if this war in Ukraine ends. The U.S. saying that there is a possibility of historic economic and investment opportunities. There was also pushback from the National Security Adviser, Mike Waltz, about the Ukrainians and Europeans not being here at these talks. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE WALTZ, U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: We are absolutely talking to both sides. The secretary of state just met with President Zelenskyy days ago, along with the vice president, seven cabinet members in Europe at the same time, really showing the importance of engaging our allies. I think, well, \the facts will continue to push back on this notion that our allies haven't been consulted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARQUARDT: We know that the U.S. Ukraine Envoy, Keith Kellogg, is also going to be in Ukraine for the rest of the week for more conversations. And now, President Zelenskyy has postponed a trip to Saudi Arabia. He was due here on Wednesday. Clearly, not wanting the appearance of being involved in these negotiations, which Ukraine was not at the table for.
There's also some confusion about a potential meeting between President Trump and Putin. We heard President Trump just say that he's expecting to do this before the end of the month, but earlier on Tuesday, we did hear the Russian delegation saying that that is not going to happen next week, which is the last week of the month, and the U.S. side saying that so far, no date has been set for that meeting.
Alex Marquardt, CNN, Riyadh.
GIOKOS: All right, let's now go to CNN's White House Reporter Alayna Treene for more. A lot happening on the ground. We've seen so much conversation in Saudi Arabia and today in Kyiv as well. Alayna, President Trump also signing some executive orders yesterday. Tell us about that. Bring us up to speed.
ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Right. Well, these are separate from some of the comments he made related to the talks surrounding the war between Ukraine and Russia. This is more about domestic policy, (inaudible). The president signed an executive order yesterday that would essentially try to expand his power over independent regulatory agencies, agencies like the Federal Trade Commission, the FCC, the Security and Exchange Commission, all that were designed specifically by Congress to operate independently of the White House.
And just to give some context on what these regulatory agencies do, they're the ones that regulate the stock market, Wall Street, banks, et cetera, and also put fines on these different companies if they are not following the law. Now, this is like many of the other executive orders that the president has signed since taking office, expected to face some serious legal challenges, including one that could eventually reach the supreme court.
[08:10:00]
And I think from my conversations with people in the Trump Administration, many of these fights that they know they're going to be having in the courts, they're hoping will reach the supreme court to ultimately give him more authority. That's definitely something I think that is on the table here.
Now just to get into one of the lines from this executive order, it says that for the federal government to be truly accountable to the American people, officials who wield vast executive power must be supervised and controlled by the people's elected president. Again, kind of summing up really one of the broad goals of the president's, but also the Trump Administration more broadly that they've been trying to do ever since taking office, which is to push the boundaries of their executive power and really centralize the role of the White House, including, again, over these agencies that were designed specifically to operate independently of the White House.
Now, one key, really interesting part of all of this is where Russell Vought, he is the Director of the Office of Management and Budget, where he comes into all of this. He's also key architect of Project 2025, something that caused a lot of consternation throughout Donald Trump's time on the campaign trail. He is someone who is going to be, because of this executive order, given sweeping power and authority to oversee a lot of these different agencies. So again, just the latest example we're really seeing of the president trying to have unprecedented power really over many agencies within the federal government, far more than we've seen a lot of his predecessors have, Eleni.
GIOKOS: Yeah, a lot has happened over the last few weeks and many people are asking whether we're seeing executive overreach here. Alayna Treene, thank you so much for bringing us the latest on that developing story.
Moving on now, Pope Francis remains hospitalized in Rome after being diagnosed with pneumonia in both lungs. This morning, the Vatican said the 88-year-old Pontiff had a peaceful night in hospital and ate breakfast. Francis has been in hospital since last week when he was admitted with bronchitis.
We've got Barbie Nadeau who's outside the hospital in Rome following the story and of course, watching very closely any news that we've been hearing about the Pope's health and his current status. Barbie, what have you heard?
BARBIE LATZA NADEAU, CNN REPORTER: Well, there is a little bit of mixed messaging. Actually, last night, we got this devastating diagnosis that he had bilateral pneumonia. And that's a very difficult thing to treat, obviously, especially in his condition because he's missing half of one of his lungs. But then this morning, a Vatican source is saying that he actually got out of his hospital bed and sat in a chair. So that is a very encouraging news in terms of his recovery and how he may be responding to this latest treatment. But you must remember, this is the third change in his course of treatment since he was sick before -- starting before he was admitted to the hospital last Friday, where we witnessed time and again, he had this shortness of breath, difficulty in speaking, asking his aides to deliver his prayers and his prepared speeches and things like that ahead of time.
We haven't seen any images of him since he's been admitted to the hospital. But we do -- we are getting encouraging news, I guess, in the sense that if he's in fact getting out of bed and sitting in a chair, that's a move in the right direction. But it will be a long road ahead for him. Obviously, he's 88 years old, he's got mobility issues, he has compromised health. We've seen him time and again in this hospital behind me. And this is a very, very serious illness that he has, this pneumonia. So we're, hoping that we'll get another good news sort of bulletin later on today, and just watch and wait and hope that he makes a full recovery, obviously.
GIOKOS: Absolutely. We're seeing some images of people gathered there outside the hospital. Give me a sense of what you're seeing from people on the ground. And we know -- also know that Pope Francis wasn't able to recite the Angelus Prayer on Sunday, but he has thanked people for their prayers and the support that he's receiving.
NADEAU: Yeah. I mean, there is an outpouring of support. Obviously, in Rome, Popes are very much beloved here. The Vatican is not -- is more than just a church here. It's very much part of the city structure and people are concerned about him and do find this Pope to be especially one of the people. He's done so many things, so much outreach, especially in terms of even the homeless issue in this city and things like that. So he's a very much beloved Pope to many Romans and to Italians and to the Catholics of the world.
But we've seen people gathering here, praying for him. There's some people leaving candles. There were some people speaking at -- on St. Peter's Square as well yesterday that we heard from, who were sending their most beloved prayers for him. But of course, he's 88-years-old. He is an elderly man. And I think any of us who have elderly people in our families, especially those with compromised health conditions, there is a lot of worry and a lot of hope.
[08:15:00]
But then of course, the reality is that these illnesses are really, really hard to fight. But he's in good hands here. This is a fabulous hospital in Rome and he's got a dedicated staff and he's up here on the 10th floor in a suite with everything he'll need in terms of monitoring him and the doctors treating him and the tests being run. So, he's being well taken care of and it's just a matter of time to see how he reacts to this and responds to this latest medical treatment that he's been receiving. Eleni?
GIOKOS: All right, Barbie Nadeau, thank you so much for that update. Good to have you with us. Much appreciated.
All right, moving on now, Israeli forces have demolished more than a dozen apartment buildings at a refugee camp in the occupied West Bank. That's according to the Palestinian Civil Defense, which calls it the latest in a military move operation that has displaced tens of thousands of Palestinians in recent weeks. Israel launched the operation two days after the first stage of the Gaza ceasefire that began and saying, it was aimed at eliminating terrorist and terror infrastructure.
Meanwhile, Hamas says it will release the bodies of four slained Israeli hostages, as well as six living hostages on Saturday. The Hostages and the Missing Families Forum named all six of those living hostages, including two held in Gaza since 2015 and 2014. In Return, Israel is expected to free Palestinian prisoners as it has done in the past few weeks. I'd like to go to London now. We've got Salma Abdelaziz standing by for us.
Salma, good to have you with us. I just want to touch on the hostage release set occur on Saturday. Tell me about what you've heard and what we know of the hostages, and importantly the ones that have also died.
SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, let's begin with what's going to take place tomorrow, Thursday, because that's when Hamas says it's going to release four bodies, four hostages who have died back to their families. And among those four are the youngest of these victims, Kfir and Ariel. They were kidnapped when they were just nine- months-old and four-years-old, along with their mother, Shiri from Kibbutz Nir Oz. There was actually footage of the moment that they were taken captives where you can see Shiri, the mother just bawling, sobbing, looking absolutely terrified as she clutched her boys. That was the last time that they were really seen alive. And it was a short time after they were taken hostage into Gaza that Hamas said that Shiri and her two boys were killed in what Hamas said was an Israeli airstrike.
Now, their father, Yarden had also been taken captive. He was made to go on tape essentially and blame Israel for the death of his three family members. Now, Yarden did survive. He was actually released alive and well at the beginning of this month by Hamas. You can expect he can be among those who are going to receive the bodies tomorrow. But this isn't just about this one family, Eleni, the fate of these boys is intertwined for all of Israeli society. With this moment in time, the faces of these two red-headed children had been plastered everywhere, in every hostage rally that was held, in every hostage poster. So to -- and for now, Israel has yet to confirm their deaths.
So for this to really come home tomorrow, it is absolutely going to bring a sense of grief and mourning across Israel ahead of those hostage releases on Saturday.
GIOKOS: Yeah, a really heartbreaking outcome, Salma. That being said, when we see the internal pressure for all the hostages to be released, big focus is now being on phase two of the ceasefire. How are negotiations going right now?
ABDELAZIZ: Well, I think one of the things that diplomats will point to in this latest statement from Hamas is that six hostages are set to be released on Saturday rather than the normal three, which shows that there's an accelerated process that is happening here that mediators say is because of these diplomatic efforts that are taking place. And once Hamas issued this statement, we did also hear from Israeli officials that they are now willing to engage in phase two negotiations and that they will fulfill their commitment of having some sort of agreement or some sort of deal before the 42nd day is up of this truce. That's what was stipulated essentially in phase one.
But phase two is going to be a lot more complicated and that's an understatement, Eleni, because it deals with the future, the political future of Gaza, who rules it, what Israeli troop presence there will be on the strip, if at all. Really complex and controversial issues. And then of course, looming over all of this is President Trump's proposal, if you will, to own Gaza. Arab countries have been scrambling over the last several days, trying to come up with an alternative proposal, an alternative plan to assuage President Trump.
[08:20:00]
So, that is also happening in the background. So a great deal of diplomatic activity. You can say that there's multiple tracks going here, but for the mediators who are trying to bring peace, trying to make this a lasting piece, they're going to tell you that what you heard and what you're going to see play out on Saturday is the success of diplomacy, and they're going to urge these parties to continue to move towards that process.
GIOKOS: Yeah. Salma Abdelaziz, thank you so much for bringing us up to speed on that story.
And still to come on CNN, what investigators are saying about a horrifying plane crash that left this Delta Airlines jet flipped over in Toronto. And later, the sweeping cutbacks in the U.S. government, can you trust the statements being made by Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency? We'll try answer that right after this. Stay with CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GIOKOS: Welcome back. Now, investigators say it is still far too early to say what caused a Delta Airlines plane to crash and flip over at Toronto's airport on Monday. The plane was attempting to land amid strong winds when it crashed and then it flipped over after a hard landing. All 80 people on board survived, although 21 people were initially taken to hospital. The cockpit voice and flight data recorders have been removed from the plane, which investigators say could provide further insight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEN WEBSTER, TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD OF CANADA: Other duties we'll be conducting here on site are examining the wreckage, examining the runway. We've already removed the cockpit voice recorder, the flight data recorder, and we've sent them to our lab for further analysis. At this point, it's far too early to say what the cause of this accident might be. However, we will share more information once we're able to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GIOKOS: Right. The runway where the plane crashed is expected to remain closed until at least Thursday evening. Everyone onboard the plane survived and some are recounting the frightening ordeal. CNN's Jason Carroll reports from Toronto.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): New video capturing the shocking moment. A Delta commuter jet crash landed and flipped, leaving passengers strapped in their seats hanging upside down Monday at Toronto's Pearson Airport.
DEBORAH FLINT, PRESIDENT AND CEO, GREATER TORONTO AIRPORTS AUTHORITY: The crew of Delta Flight 4819 heroically led passengers to safety. I thank each and every one of these heroes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Drop everything, drop it. Come on.
CARROLL (voice-over): Those heroes swiftly and efficiently evacuated all 76 passengers off the aircraft after it crashed, as they crawled one by one out of the plane, passengers helped each other along the way.
PETE CARLSON, PASSENGER: You could see kind of row by row or area by area, people were checking one another out, making decisions about whether we would help one another with their straps or if by doing that, would they be landing on somebody else.
[08:25:00]
CARROLL (voice-over): One passenger told out front that all seemed normal as the aircraft was on its final descent, but then suddenly a hard landing. The new video filmed from another plane on the tarmac captures the jet erupting in flames as it skids down the runway and flips over.
JOHN NELSON, PASSENGER: When we hit, it was just a super hard, like it hit the ground and the plane went sideways and I believe, we skidded like on our side and then flipped over on our back where we ended up, there was like a big fireball.
PETE KOUKOV, PASSENGER (via telephone): There was no like real indication of anything. And then, yeah, we hit the ground and we were sideways and then we were upside down, hanging like that.
CARROLL (voice-over): In the few days leading up to the crash, Toronto received more snow than it had the entire previous winter. But officials say it's too early to answer if that was a factor in the crash.
FLINT: This would not be a time for us to have theory or to speculate on what caused the crash. CARROLL (voice-over): Canadian officials say 21 people onboard were injured, none were life-threatening. And on Tuesday afternoon, officials said only two remained in the hospital. The incident comes as the aviation industry is still reeling from recent accidents involving an American Airlines commuter jet and a military chopper near Washington, D.C., a Medevac jet in Philadelphia, and a Bering Air Flight near Nome, Alaska, passengers onboard Flight 4819 say it's remarkable everyone survived.
CARLSON: I think the most powerful part of today was there was just, just people, no countries, no nothing. It was just people together, helping each other.
CARROLL: The plane is still out there on the runway behind me, still in the same position where it crashed. Investigators have been onboard. They have retrieved the cockpit voice recorder as well as the flight data recorder, but even with all of that potential information in their hands, it's still going to be some time before they come up with an exact cause of this crash.
Jason Carroll, CNN, Toronto.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GIOKOS: Some 60 million people in the United States are under alerts for bone-chilling cold today. Over the next couple of days, some parts of the south and east could see the coldest temperatures of the year, and in some cases, many years. A wintry mist (ph) covered this interstate in Oklahoma, while 22 centimeters of snow fell in nearby Missouri. The storm is due to move through the Ohio Valley and into the Mid-Atlantic in the coming hours, and this was the scene overnight in still flooded Kentucky. People there, along with those in several other states, were hit hard by last weekend's deadly storm and now face heavy snow.
And still to come, Volodymyr Zelenskyy pushes back against Donald Trump's comments that Ukraine started the war in its own country while Russia offers the U.S. president nothing but praise, and then shaping up to be the most public exchange of accusations between Kyiv and Washington since the full-scale conflict started three years ago, I'll be talking to a former adviser to the Ukrainian president about what this might mean. Stay with CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[08:31:20]
GIOKOS: Volodymyr Zelenskyy is accusing Donald Trump of repeating Russian propaganda, one day after the U.S. president falsely blamed Ukraine for starting its own conflict, the Ukrainian president said his U.S. counterparts was living in a disinformation space after Mr. Trump appeared to question Mr. Zelenskyy's legitimacy, claiming that his approval rating was at 4 percent.
The Russian foreign Minister, however, is praising the U.S. leader for claiming Kyiv's desire to join NATO, which was supported by the Biden Administration, was a major cause of the conflict. Earlier, Sergey Lavrov told lawmakers that Mr. Trump understands his country's position on Ukraine and that it is Russia that is under threat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SERGEY LAVROV, RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): The security of Russia has been at the center of our concerns here in the Ukrainian conflict. This has been shown up in the most graphic way possible in as much as Russian culture and civilization has been completely under threat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GIOKOS: Meanwhile, the Kremlin says talks between U.S. president and Russian President Putin could take place by the end of this month. We've got CNN's Fred Pleitgen joining us live in Moscow. Fred, good to have you on. It's clearly been a big couple of days for Russia on the world stage. How are Kremlin officials feeling right now after the talks in Riyadh?
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, they're absolutely thrilled, I think, from the U.S. delegation then afterwards, also from the things that President Trump said last night about that meeting, calling it a very good meeting, and then also of course, ripping into -- apparently ripping into the Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Those were exactly the things that the Russians wanted to hear.
So looking at the mood here in Moscow, and I think we saw that today in the speech from Sergey Lavrov, the Foreign Minister, in front of the Russian Lower House of Parliament, the Duma. Right now, there is a great deal of optimism in the air. Of course, Sergey Lavrov also saying that the U.S. and Russia spoke about what he called the root causes of the conflict in Ukraine. Obviously, the Russians claiming that their security was at stake, that Russians were being persecuted in Ukraine. The Ukraine is obviously saying exactly the opposite of that.
But the Russians right now, their main thing that we're hearing from is they're saying they believe that they are being heard and are being understood by the Trump Administration. In fact, there are some politicians who've come out here in Moscow and say that they believe that right now, the position that the Trump Administration holds in all of this is closer to the Russian side than it is to the side of the U.S.' own allies and of course of the Ukrainians as well.
It was quite interesting because the Speaker of the Federation Council, which is the Upper House of Parliament here in Russia, the sort of Senate of Russia, if you will, she came out and she said, look, Western countries, specifically the United States, are making an effort to mend ties with the Russian Federation. But at the same time, she also said that, when it comes to Russia's national security, that Russia would not be making any compromises. And of course, those are going to be the difficulties as a lot of these negotiations progress.
One of the things that the Russians have said is, as far as territorial concessions are concerned, in the Ukraine war, they're not willing to go very far, especially when it comes to the territory, of course, that the Ukrainians hold on the Russian side of the border, but also the territory that the Russians have taken so far. And then you just played that clip of Sergey Lavrov speaking about possible Ukrainian NATO membership and that, of course, being a red line for the Russians.
One of the things that we keep hearing is not just that the Trump Administration seems to be using some of the talking points from the Russians or repeating some of those, but also that the Russians are repeating some of the things that Donald Trump, that President Trump has said in the past.
[08:35:00]
Like for instance, that it was the Biden Administration that was pushing the NATO membership for Ukraine, and that was one of the root causes for the war. Of course, the Biden Administration only spoke about NATO membership for Ukraine well after the invasion of 2022, Eleni.
GIOKOS: Yeah, indeed. Brilliant reporting, Fred, as always. Thank you so much. Stay warm. Thank you so much for staying up for us in the snow, from a snowy Moscow there.
I want to dig a little deeper into this and we're -- we've got Alexander Rodnyansky, who's a Former Economic Adviser to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy and an Associate Professor of Economics at University of Cambridge. Welcome, sir. Thank you so much for taking the time.
President Zelenskyy said President Trump is living in a Russian disinformation space after Trump signaling that Ukraine is to blame for the war. Do you think that these remarks are playing into Russia's agenda? How do you characterize what you've been hearing from the United States?
ALEXANDER RODNYANSKY, FORMER ECONOMIC ADVISER TO UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY: That's right. Well, thanks for having me. Certainly, Ukraine is not to blame for the escalation and for the war itself. That is a mischaracterization of what has happened. That's for sure. But the issue is of course, that we need an ending to the conflict somehow, and ideally with security guarantees for Ukraine. Otherwise, it's going to flare up. And even if it doesn't flare up, there's not going to be any belief in Ukraine's future.
No investment, no growth, no development, nothing, just a dead zone, which is too costly and not an option for anybody, Europe or the West or us, of course. So look, I mean, it is what it is. There's clearly some frustration on both sides and we see that and we hear that in the rhetoric, but hopefully, we can move on.
GIOKOS: Yeah. And this rhetoric basically coming after Ukraine was left out, essentially ostracized, from the talks in Riyadh that was held between the United States and Russia. Now, President Zelenskyy is delaying a trip to Riyadh. Do you think it was strategically wise for him to do so? Or do you think that it would be important so that he ensures that he achieves diplomat -- what he needs from a diplomatic perspective?
RODNYANSKY: Right. I mean, so if I understand your question correctly, obviously, there's talks between Russia and the U.S. It's disappointing and somewhat disenchanting that Ukraine does not have a voice in these talks. It's not party to these talks. Ultimately, Ukraine will have to have a say and the people of Ukraine will obviously decide on whether they want to press ahead with any sort of deal or any sort of agreement that's struck between Russia and the U.S. potentially. But, that's -- ultimately, that's how we see it. There's -- there can't be any sort of solution without Ukraine having a voice in this.
GIOKOS: Yeah, absolutely. Mike Waltz, the U.S. National Security Adviser in Riyadh said that territory and security guarantees are going to underpin the deal. We also heard Hegseth saying that pre-2014 borders are not realistic. What do you make of potential concessions that Ukraine might have to face? Are Ukrainians expecting to concede on territory?
RODNYANSKY: Yes. So if you look at how Ukrainian society feels today and about everything that's going on, there's clearly fatigue. There's war fatigue that's visible and felt throughout society. So on some level, there's willingness for a compromise for sure. Whether that means accepting permanently a loss of territory, I'm not sure. I don't think people are willing to do that, but they're willing to certainly not press ahead with military solutions at this point and see an ending to the bloodshed essentially at this point.
And some sort of temporary cessation perhaps. But the question is, will Russia agree to this, also with our demand, which is crucial for security guarantees? That is unclear, unfortunately. It is also true as President Trump has stressed that we could have struck a deal before. Unfortunately, we didn't when our bargaining position was better. But we are where we are. So, we have to try and at least get some sort of deal that's acceptable to us, primarily Ukraine, and hopefully to everyone.
GIOKOS: So, President Trump is very transactional and we've seen him conduct even around his rhetoric, he's been talking about wanting Ukrainian rare earths and throwing around a $500 billion number, which is frankly unattainable. If you look at the global rare earth output right now, from a global perspective, as a former economic adviser to President Zelenskyy, what's your take on this?
RODNYANSKY: Yes, it is an unusual form of mercantilist ideology if you want, which is a sort of 16th, 17th century --
GIOKOS: Yeah.
RODNYANSKY: -- doctrine in economics, where it was all about the accumulation of gold and silver and lots of protectionism. That has become obsolete obviously with centuries that have passed. So it is a bit of a strange doctrine where you just focus on natural resources. Look, the $500 billion is an unreasonable number. I think, the Ukraine's GDP is several magnitudes below that, it's about $180 billion.
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So it's hard to see how that would actually all add up. We are fine with U.S. partners coming in and obviously investing and developing, helping develop Ukraine. But as I would say, it is one step at a time. First of all, we need tangible security guarantees that would provide the certainty for economic growth and job creation. And then, we can obviously talk about how we develop and rebuild and reconstruct Ukraine along with our Western partners.
GIOKOS: Yeah. Alexander, great to have you with us. Thank you so much. Alexander Rodnyansky there for us.
And still to come, Elon Musk promised that his efforts to shrink the federal government would be transparent for all to see. Well, one of his supposed biggest cutbacks to dates isn't all that it seems. We'll break that down for you right after the short break. Stay with CNN.
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ELON MUSK, FOUNDER AND CEO, SPACEX AND TESLA MOTORS, DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY: Well, we actually are trying to be as transparent as possible. In fact, our actions, we post our actions to the DOGE handle on X and to the DOGE website. So all of our actions are maximally transparent.
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GIOKOS: Transparent, but also, is it accurate? There are new questions being asked today about what is going on at Elon Musk's so- called Department of Government Efficiency. DOGE, as it is known, post the ways it says it is saving money on its websites. One of the biggest single cutbacks in a list published on Monday was a canceled government contract that DOGE says was worth $8 billion. But the New York Times looked into that contract and says it was actually for just $8 million.
Meanwhile, DOGE scrambled to clean up the mess it made last week when it fired hundreds of government employees who were responsible for managing America's nuclear weapons. The next day were told DOGE rescinded the firings and then worked through the weekend to recall the nuclear security employees back to work. All of this coming as federal judge declining on Tuesday to grant a temporary restraining order that would've blocked DOGE's access to federal databases. It is just the latest in a long, long line of legal ruling stemming from Trump's recent actions.
Well, joining us now to help sort through all of this, we've got legal expert, Jeff Swartz of the Thomas Cooley Law School. Jeff, great to have you with us. I mean, there's so much to look through and I'm just on the DOGE websites and it says that it's a -- that savings of $55 billion, which is a combination of fraud detection, deletion, contracts, lease cancellations and so forth. Tell me from a legal perspective, if you're talking about such a big number, fraud cases need to go through some kind of legal process, surely?
JEFF SWARTZ, FORMER MIAMI-DADE COUNTY, FLORIDA COURT JUDGE: Yes. Well, first of all, it wasn't $8 billion. It was $8 million. And even of the $8 million --
GIOKOS: Yeah.
SWARTZ: -- that it was, $2.5 million had already been spent. So the saving was about $5.5 million if that even existed.
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So, it really wasn't what they're claiming. Many of the things that DOGE is doing are really illegal. First of all, because the main objection is that it doesn't fit the appointments clause of the U.S. Constitution. When positions are of such importance to deal with national security, things like that, the agencies have to be created by the United States Congress -- have to be created by the United States Congress.
GIOKOS: Yeah.
SWARTZ: And they have to be funded by the United States Congress. Here, this has not happened with DOGE And the leaders of those agencies are subject to Advise and Consent. That is the approval of the United States Senate. That also has not happened here. So as a result of which, everything that DOGE is doing is alleged to be illegal and the appointments clause has been shown by one court ruling to actually apply here. So whatever he's doing is just not the right thing.
The White House yesterday tried to clean this up by claiming that Mr. Musk is not the Head of DOGE He is an adviser to the president of the United States and somebody else is heading up DOGE But we don't have any idea who that is. This is not transparency. This is not what is supposed to occur. And this would be subject to matters related to IGs, except for they've all been fired by DOGE
GIOKOS: I mean, it's really phenomenal to see what has transpired over the last few weeks. And it's funny because on the DOGE website, and I say 55, they say total of $55 billion in savings. And again, it's this fraud, contract, lease cancellation, and so forth. And they've got what they call the list of receipts, this wall of receipts, and they're talking about the agencies which include USAID, USDA as well.
They fired some people from the USDA that were actually doing research on bird flu, and they've now called them back. We saw that with the nuclear agency as well. Does this feel messy to you from a legal perspective?
SWARTZ: Well, from a legal perspective, we're looking at people that are doing things that don't have national security clearances, at least not real ones, where they have been investigated and we know that they are reliable. They were given clearances by executive fiat, which the president is entitled to do, but not on mass (ph) like this, on individual basis, for individual reasons. That's probably what a president should be doing. So we have a legal issue of who is touching these things.
We have privacy issues on some of the things that they're doing. We're talking about $55 billion, even if that were true, that's really a drop in the bucket when we're talking about a multi-trillion dollar budget. And the bottom line is that they're trying to find enough money to cover a tax cut, and they're never going to find that kind of money. People are being fired without their rights.
GIOKOS: Yeah.
SWARTZ: There are civil service rights that they have before they are terminated. And that's not happening either. There are just so many violations of the law here that none of this is really going to stand. In the end, the courts are going to freeze all of this.
GIOKOS: Another thing that transpired, President Trump signing executive orders on Tuesday, bringing independent agencies closer under presidential control, which includes the SEC, the FTC, the FCC as well. Is this presidential overreach? How would you describe this?
SWARTZ: It is. It clearly is. We create these agencies and we try to create them to be as independent as possible. The idea is that yes, the executive oversees it, but they're not supposed to control their actions. And here, that's exactly what's happening. This is executive overreach. This is how dictatorship start. They take control over the agencies and the lives of the people that are dependent upon those agencies.
And they've made it abundantly clear through Project 2025 that that's what they want to do. They want to bring everything into the White House. They don't want any independence. And in one of the ways that it's exhibited is the Department of Justice, the Department of Energy, the IRS, the Treasury, all of these things that need their kind of independent ability to manage themselves and not be micromanaged by the White House. And that's precisely what they're trying to do.
GIOKOS: Jeff Swartz, great to have you with us. Thank you for making sense of all the news flow we've had. Thank you.
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Well, still to come, NASCAR's Clean Future had plans to bring more energy and less emissions to the racetrack of the future. We'll be right back.
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GIOKOS: In the coming decade, the fast-paced world of NASCAR is slated to get an overhaul. It has pledged to be Net Zero by 2035, and electric vehicles could play a role. CNN's Bill Weir got an up close and a look at the EV prototype at the Daytona 500.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Just outside the cradle of American racing, automobile history was made this weekend when Formula Drift Superstar Ryan Tuerck swapped out his rubber burning rig for a machine with twice the power, over 1,300 horses but with a fraction of the noise and not a whiff of exhaust. Behold, the first electric NASCAR.
WEIR: This is so surreal. Normally, this event would come with a thunderous sound of that internal combustion engine, but all you hear is this high-pitch wine and then just the tires being shredded by those electric engines.
RYAN TUERCK, FORMULA DRIFT DRIVER: The power is just out of this world. It's like nothing I've ever experienced before.
WEIR: It's like twice as much horses as one of the regular NASCARs, right?
TUERCK: Yes. That -- beyond that, you have the power on demand at all times.
WEIR: Like a power drill, the zing.
TUERCK: There isn't a power band that is just -- there's just all the power at all times.
WEIR (voice-over): This is one of three electric prototypes unveiled this year as NASCAR pledges to be Net Zero by 2035. But while this Chevy Blazer was supposed to be the first electric pace car in Daytona 500 history, it was literally cut off by Donald Trump's armored plated motorcade, a fitting metaphor from a president who was vowing to destroy EV incentives, charging networks, and tailpipe pollution standards as he promised to fossil fuel executives.
WEIR: Has the politics made your job harder these days?
RILEY NELSON, HEAD OF SUSTAINABILITY, NASCAR: We have very clear corporate goals around sustainability and so, our job is to focus on getting those done, no matter who's in office or what's going on. So our focus is on right now, again, energy and right now, the racetrack you have behind you, that keeps you up at night and how do we decarbonize that within the next 10 years. And so that's everything from energy efficiency, LED lights, bringing in different ABB technologies, other partner technologies, so that we can reduce our own operating footprint as a sport.
WEIR: Yeah.
NELSON: And then bring that to the fan and educate the fan on how can we bring some of these technologies into our communities and then help support the growth of sustainability across the country.
DAVID RAGAN, FORMER NASCAR DRIVER: Yeah, I guarantee you there's more EVs in the parking lot today than there was five years ago. And in another five years, there's going to be a lot more. WEIR (voice-over): David Ragan is a third-generation NASCAR racer who now drives an electric Ford Mustang in retirement simply because it's fast, fun, and cheaper to fuel and maintain. He believes this fan base is destined to make that same discovery. So the market, not the president, will decide.
RAGAN: And I think the manufacturers really, that they've got their finger on the pulse, Chevrolet, Ford Motor Company, Toyota, the big partners here at NASCAR, they've all got their different plans for how they're going to attack that. And again, I think NASCAR is just saying, hey, we want to be prepared when that evolution takes place.
JOHN STAHLBUSCH, EVP OF SALES, ABB: So Daytona, they've just electrified their parking lot. So they're -- whenever their employees pull up, they'll be able to charge a vehicle.
[08:55:00]
Once charging becomes more ubiquitous and it sort of gets integrated into the fabric of the everyday American, I think it'll become more and more accepted, and it'll be utilized more and more by everybody.
WEIR: You are telling me this is a conscious effort to win hearts and minds of folks who pay extra for the fumes and the noise of a --
CHRIS SHIGAS, VICE PRESIDENT, ABB: Yes. We're in the energy transition, right now, in this country. The energy transition isn't for some people; it's for everyone. So I think we need to have better conversations about how we use energy in the United States, and we welcome all the opinions and all the opinions out here today because these are important decisions to make our country stronger.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guys, you are watching Ryan Tuerck right now in the electric group car.
GIOKOS: Right. That was CNN's Bill Weir reporting for us. Thanks so much for joining us here on "CNN Newsroom." I'm Eleni Giokos in Dubai. "Connect the World" with Becky Anderson is coming up next. Stick with CNN.
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