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Trump Administration Continues Firing Federal Workers; Interview With Rep. Ted Lieu (D-CA); Trump Blasts Ukrainian President. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired February 19, 2025 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:30]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Well, good morning to you. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Pamela Brown in Washington.

We have some breaking news. President Trump is lashing out at Ukrainian President Zelenskyy, calling him a -- quote -- "dictator without elections."

CNN's Alayna Treene is at the White House.

Things are really devolving between Trump and Zelenskyy, fair to say, Alayna.

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: That's right.

I actually spoke with a White House official shortly before this post from the president came out who told me that they were expecting a response from the president, given what Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said this morning, arguing that the president operates in a disinformation space, arguing that he wished there was more truth coming from the Trump team, all things that clearly have gotten under Donald Trump's skin and issued and prompted really this response.

I want to read for you just some of what he said. The post -- in this post, he says that Zelenskyy is -- quote -- "a dictator without elections. Zelenskyy better move fast or he is not going to have a country left."

He also argued to say that Zelenskyy -- quote -- "refuses to have elections, is very low in Ukrainian polls," and the only thing he was good at was playing Biden -- quote -- "like a fiddle," he said, of course, without evidence, continuing to kind of repeat some of these talking points from the Kremlin about Zelenskyy's waning influence.

Now, all to say, of course, this comes at a very crucial and critical moment in these talks that the United States is trying to facilitate between Russia, Ukraine and European leaders to find an end to this war. Obviously, though, a lot of this came to a head this week because Ukraine, as well as many European allies, felt isolated and kind of left out of these discussions directly between Russia and United States officials in Riyadh earlier this week. So there's been a lot of tension around this. And we have seen

Zelenskyy repeatedly kind of criticize how these negotiations were taking place, arguing that he was not invited to participate in those talks in Riyadh. So there's been some back-and-forth.

And I have definitely been picking up in my conversations with White House officials, Trump administration officials, some tension there through all of this. But this is just the latest criticism really we have seen from the president. Also comes, of course, after we saw him yesterday suggest perhaps that Ukraine was responsible for the war, again, falsely suggest. I should say.

So, really, a lot of back-and-forth we're now seeing from the president and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, Pamela.

BROWN: We certainly are. Alayna, thank you so much.

So let's discuss this criticism of Ukraine's president and more with Democratic Congressman Ted Lieu of California.

So what do you make of the latest comments from President Trump about Zelenskyy, Congressman?

REP. TED LIEU (D-CA): Thank you, Pamela, for your question.

Donald Trump acts like he is scared of Vladimir Putin. I don't know why that is, but it is highly disturbing. A few years ago, Donald Trump said he trusted Vladimir Putin more than our own intelligence officials.

You see Trump when he's with Putin. The body language Trump sends is one of weakness. And now you see Trump giving away the store when it comes to the Ukraine-Russia conflict. And name-calling is certainly not helpful. And I wish the president would stop that and show strength. The American people does not want the American president to show weakness, and that's what Trump is doing right now, showing weakness.

BROWN: So let's talk about what Zelenskyy is doing, too, because he is firing back at Trump before this latest post. He is accusing him of living in a disinformation space of Russian propaganda.

What do you think about Zelenskyy's approach? I mean, we have had some on our air who have said, look, Zelenskyy has no cards to play here, and maybe he should just cool it. What do you think about that?

LIEU: I certainly think that there are ways to say things more diplomatically.

However, it's simply a fact that Donald Trump is spewing Russian misinformation. Russia attacked Ukraine not once, but twice, the first in 2014 when they took Crimea. And because the world and the United States did nothing about it, Russia attacked again in 2022.

And if Trump capitulates to Russia and surrenders, then Russia is going to attack again. BROWN: I want to turn to other news of the day besides this. There

was a judge's ruling. This was an Obama-appointed judge, I should note, who said these, Democratic, these blue states did not show that DOGE's work would cause irreparable harm.

[11:05:06]

What is your reaction to that?

LIEU: So this is still an ongoing case. There's going to be a full trial, and different judges are going to render different rulings. Over 55 lawsuits have been filed, and the Trump administration has been losing a lot of those lawsuits in court.

Some of their executive orders are brazenly illegal. For this specific case, let's see how the court process plays out.

BROWN: They have been losing, but they have also been winning some, and this would be considered a win.

Your district includes the campus of UCLA, which gets billions of federal funds for medical research. Those dollars have been targeted by DOGE and the Trump administration. What impact are those cuts going to have or are they having so far?

LIEU: It's going to have a devastating impact, because, when you cut NIH funding, that affects cancer research, not just in my district, but in red and blue districts across America.

And one of their problems, when you have these random people at DOGE making these cuts, they have no context for what they're doing. So, for example, they fired a whole bunch of federal employees who they later realized, oh, are responsible for nuclear safety. So then they had to unfire them.

And you have this complete chaos, and none of this is addressing the main issue on American voters' minds last year and this year, were just inflation. It's gone up. The price of eggs has gone up. And the Trump administration is doing nothing about housing or groceries.

BROWN: That is certainly true that some groceries have gone up, including eggs. The White House is arguing that all these cuts that DOGE is making, all of this will eventually help with inflation. We're going to see about that, obviously, and we will stay on top of that.

But we have confirmed some of the cuts the DOGE team has been making, and they do include things, besides what we were just discussing, like gender-affirming health care in Guatemala, teaching people in Kazakstan to fight back against Internet trolls, voluntary male circumcisions in Mozambique, creating work opportunities for young LGBTQI+ people in Serbia.

Are these things that you think taxpayer money from the U.S., U.S. taxpayer money should be spent on? And how do you think taxpayers knew their money was going to these consequences?

LIEU: So, happy to have a discussion the funding of USAID and what some of these programs are going to.

But what the administration cannot do is randomly freeze the funding to all these programs that Congress has already appropriated. That's why we have an entire appropriations process. And it's also simply wrong that they're making these cuts to somehow help Americans.

They're making these cuts to give billions of dollars of tax breaks to billionaires. And how do we know that? Because Republicans just passed a budget out of committee last week that does exactly that. It gives trillions of dollars, actually, in tax breaks to the super wealthy.

BROWN: But Republicans and many Americans, and I hear from them a lot, say, look, I know Democrats say that this is going to help with tax cuts to billionaires, but this -- Democrats have been saying for years, going back to President Clinton, we're going to make the government more efficient. We're going to get rid of waste, fraud, and abuse.

And in their view, they're looking at all of this and they're applauding it. They're saying, finally, someone is doing something about this and they're moving fast. And sometimes you have to do that and mistakes will be made. But, finally, they're getting rid of some of the waste. And, wow, I can't believe this is what my taxpayer dollars are going to, including some of those programs I mentioned.

What do you say to all those Americans?

LIEU: I absolutely support getting rid of waste, fraud, and abuse. And, by the way, both Democratic and Republican administrations have been doing this. You may remember, when Al Gore ran, he ran on waste, fraud, and abuse and talked about rooting out all this waste, fraud, and abuse when he was vice president of the United States.

And this has been ongoing among administrations. And I absolutely support getting rid of waste, fraud and abuse.

BROWN: But they would argue it hasn't had the impact.

(CROSSTALK)

LIEU: ... just do it legally.

BROWN: They would argue...

(CROSSTALK)

LIEU: Oh, the impact is, it's going to give big tax breaks to billionaires. That's exactly what the Republican budget does. And people can read it. It came out last week.

BROWN: I want to ask you about something else from the White House that -- this E.O. that President Trump signed. There were a couple. One is, of course, consolidating power in the executive branch over government agencies that were created by Congress.

I want to get your reaction to that and I want to get your reaction to one more. Go ahead.

LIEU: Sure.

So the executive order that puts these independent agencies fully under the administration is illegal. Congress wrote into law that these agencies are to have independence. It's going to be litigated. And I believe that the courts will strike down that executive order. And they have already halted, these courts, by the way, a number of Trump executive orders.

BROWN: I also want to get your reaction to another E.O. to expand access and reduce costs for in vitro fertilization. You have been outspoken about the need for affordable IVF in this country. Do you applaud the president's actions on this?

[11:10:03]

LIEU: Absolutely not.

There are many Americans, through no fault of their own, who can't have a family, but want a family. And IVF is one of the ways to do that. And so you have these draconian cuts that Donald Trump and Republicans are proposing that's going to harm Americans.

Again, this Republican budget blueprint has massive cuts to what they're calling mandatory spending, which includes Medicare, Medicaid, and the Affordable Care Act. And that's going to devastate the health care of many Americans.

BROWN: Just want to be clear. I understand your points about the cuts, but on this IVF, in particular, the president signed one that would expand access and make it more affordable for American families.

So you don't applaud that?

LIEU: I'm sorry. I misunderstood your question. I misunderstood your question.

BROWN: That's OK. That's why I wanted to follow up with you to make sure you understand.

LIEU: Yes. I support expanding IVF, absolutely.

BROWN: OK.

I want to ask you about Kash Patel,of course, Trump's controversial pick to lead the FBI. He is moving closer to getting confirmed after the Senate voted yesterday to move forward with his nomination. What do you think about that, that he is on the verge of being confirmed, and what effect is he going to have on law enforcement in the U.S., in your view?

LIEU: I hope that Mr. Patel follows the law. I hope that he does a good job. And I expect all the Democrats to vote against him in the U.S. Senate for confirmation, and then we will see if any Republicans join the Democrats. BROWN: All right, Congressman Ted Lieu, thank you so much for your

time.

LIEU: Thank you.

BROWN: Well, new this morning, Trump's Justice Department is telling the Supreme Court that the presidency could be irreversibly damaged by a court order pausing his firing of a key government watchdog. It's one of several cases testing the Trump administration's power to fire members of independent boards.

CNN's Katelyn Polantz joins us now.

What more are you learning, Katelyn?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, panel of the Supreme Court is teed up to have their say in this case at any time now.

It's been fully briefed in the court and it is the first case, and a major one, to challenge Donald Trump and his executive authority since he retook the presidency. So, in this case, it's about him firing someone who had a bit of independence given to him by Congress to be a independent authority to look at watchdog complaints, whistle-blower complaints from federal government workers.

The person that Trump fired, his name is Hampton Dellinger. He was reinstated into the office by the courts about a week-and-a-half ago. And since then, the Justice Department, Trump's Justice Department, has pushed this through the appeals courts very, very fast. So now they have to convince the Supreme Court of two things, one, that it's time to take this case, even if it's premature to get to the Supreme Court.

They're saying that the Supreme Court needs to step in about this and make sure they look at Trump's authority here in firing a federal official, because, if the Supreme Court doesn't, they warn of -- quote -- "inter-branch trench warfare" whenever someone new comes into the presidency.

The second thing that they're arguing to the Supreme Court at the Justice Department is they're saying that it's concrete harm on the president not to allow him to do what he wants with his powers of the presidency to fire people who work within the executive branch, like Hampton Dellinger, the special counsel.

But this is just one of many cases that are testing this sort of authority of Donald Trump. And there was another one just a few steps behind this one. Another person who handles watchdog complaints from federal workers on a protection board for federal workers, that person was reinstated by the courts yesterday.

So these are all going to move forward in these fast challenges, and we await what the Supreme Court has to say here, especially whatever they will say about Donald Trump's authority over the executive branch. BROWN: Katelyn Polantz, thank you so much.

Still ahead: A disabled veteran fired from the education apartment with no reason why, she will tell us how the mass firings are hitting people who serve the country.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:18:51]

BROWN: The Trump administration is celebrating a new legal victory this morning. A federal judge has rejected a request from attorneys general in blue states to rein in the Department of Government Efficiency. The emergency lawsuit tried to block DOGE from accessing federal data systems at the seven government departments.

It also tried to prevent DOGE from firing or placing on involuntary leave any employees at these agencies.

Chelsea Milburn is among those cuts. She's a former probationary employee with the Department of Education. She was fired last week.

Chelsea, thank you so much for sharing your story with us. You're a disabled military veteran. You thought your post-military career had found a soft landing in civil service. Tell us about the difficulty and the sacrifice in making that transition to this civilian career.

CHELSEA MILBURN, FIRED FEDERAL EMPLOYEE: Sure.

I mean, one thing for me, I came directly from a tour of active service. And during that time, I developed a disability that disqualified me from continuing at that time. So, for me, it was also a big loss of identity. I have taken my identity in service for a long time.

I served 11 years in the Navy, nine of them active and two in the Reserves. And so losing my ability to do that in that capacity was a big hit. So, when I started this job with the Department of Education, it felt like getting that piece of myself back to be able to continue to serve, just in a new way.

[11:20:16]

So this loss is -- it's financial stress, but it's also more than that for me.

BROWN: How were you notified that you were fired?

MILBURN: The senior political appointee in my office, actually, I got an e-mail directly from her, and it essentially just said that I was terminated.

BROWN: Do you regret not taking the so-called buyout offer? It's obviously being challenged, and there was a lot of skepticism about it, but, given what happened, do you have any regrets? MILBURN: No, I don't have any regrets, especially because there are

people at my agency who accepted that offer and were still terminated the same way that I was.

BROWN: Yes, we have heard those stories.

Most probationary employees have limited rights to appeal their dismissals. What do you do now? Where do you go from here?

MILBURN: So, for me, I'm filing for unemployment, I'm looking for work and I'm exploring my legal options.

BROWN: How long are you getting paid for?

MILBURN: Just through Wednesday. So -- and that's something that I think is really important for people to know. I have seen it discussed a lot as a layoff. And this was not a layoff. They used a process that is intended for individual and performance-based firings as a means to downsize and get rid of thousands of people

And that's important for unemployment, for future employment, especially for future employment within the government. If it had been a layoff, they would have acknowledged that it wasn't our fault. And I know that most of the people that I have talked to like myself have never gotten any negative feedback about their performance.

BROWN: You haven't. And, yes, we have heard those stories too of people getting positive reviews, getting pay raises in the past because of the job that they have been doing, and then they get this letter saying that we're letting you go because of your performance.

So, on Wednesday, that's it. You're only going to be paid through Wednesday. The government is providing that -- is the government providing the answers you need and helping you navigate your way out of this?

MILBURN: So, as of yet, I haven't even gotten the documentation about my termination yet. And I know for some people in some states that makes unemployment benefits challenging to get.

So it's kind of been stressful. It seems like they may not have the answers at their level. So we're communicating with H.R. There's sometimes delays as they're trying to figure out what exactly they should be doing.

BROWN: Are you hoping to ever return to a job in the federal government or not after this?

MILBURN: I wouldn't do it until some things have changed, because, right now, it's a lack of stability, and then also the emotional impact to me. This really feels like a betrayal in some sense, and that they didn't consider how this impacts people and especially the 30 percent of the federal work force that have served on active duty.

BROWN: Tell us more about how it feels like a betrayal. MILBURN: I mean, it comes down to what I have already said. I served

my country for 11 years, nine of them on active duty. I deployed twice. I spent so much time away from my family.

I know I was gone when my mom passed away. And I missed that to serve my country. And I was excited to continue serving in this capacity. And they not only tore that out from under my feet, but couldn't even just grant me a layoff, and instead placed the blame on me that it was my performance.

And I have gotten nothing but positive reviews on that. So I feel very much like the message is that my service isn't valued. They don't care about how this impacts me or people like me. And, to me, it's inhumane. It feels like they're ignoring our personhood and not respecting us as human beings or as American citizens.

BROWN: I'm so sorry you had to miss that with your mom. I have lost my mom. And to not be there at the bedside is just -- I'm so sorry. And you were serving your country at the time, and you said you were proud of that and now you feel betrayed.

Chelsea Milburn, thank you for coming on and sharing your story. I think it's really important to understand the human side of all of this, rather than just talking about it. So thank you for helping us better understand that.

We will be right back.

MILBURN: Thank you so much for letting me tell my story.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:29:33]

BROWN: Well, the Trump administration is walking back its firings of some federal employees.

The Department of Agriculture says it is rescinding termination letters sent to workers who have been supporting the bird flu response. Veterinarians and animal health technicians were not part of the initial layoffs. And it comes after President Trump and Elon Musk announced sweeping cuts to the federal work force, including at the nation's health agencies like the CDC.

Joining us now is director of the Vaccine Education Center at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, Dr. Paul Offit, and healthy food activist and co-founder of the company Truemed and an outside adviser to RFK Calley Means.