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Hamas Expected To Hand Over Bodies Of Four Hostages; War Of Words Between Donald Trump And Volodymyr Zelenskyy Rattle Ukraine; Prospect Of Peace Agreement Amid Russia's Demands; Hamas Transferring Bodies Of Four Hostages To Red Cross. Hamas transferring bodies of four hostages to Red Cross. Aired 2-3a ET
Aired February 20, 2025 - 02:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[02:00:35]
ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world and everyone streaming us on CNN Max. I'm Rosemary Church.
Just ahead, a heartbreaking return home, Hamas is set to release the bodies of four hostages, including some of the youngest victims.
Also, Donald Trump doubles down, lashing out at Ukraine's president while pushing Vladimir Putin's propaganda.
And as Germany prepares to head to the polls, we'll look at the rising popularity of the far right AFD party among young voters.
ANNOUNCER: Live from Atlanta. This is CNN NEWSROOM with Rosemary Church.
CHURCH: We are following developments out of Gaza, where Hamas is set to hand over the bodies of four deceased hostages. Israel has said it's expecting the transfer of Shiri Bibas and her two young sons, Ariel and Kfir, as well as Oded Lifshitz, who were kidnapped on October 7th, 2023.
Kfir Bibas was just 9 months old, his brother Ariel 4 years old when they and their mother were taken from their kibbutz. The children were with their bright red hair became the most recognizable victims of the Hamas terror attacks.
Oded Lifshitz was 83 years old when he and his wife were kidnapped. She was released by Hamas after just a few weeks. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says the hostage handover will be a very difficult day for the country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): We are bringing home four of our beloved hostages fallen. We embrace the families and the heart of an entire nation is torn. My heart is torn. Yours too. And the heart of the entire world needs to be torn, because here we see who we are dealing with, what we are dealing with, what monsters we are dealing with.
We are sad, we are hurting, but we are also determined to ensure that something like this will never happen again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHURCH: CNN's International Diplomatic Editor Nic Robertson is live this hour in Jerusalem and Paula Hancocks joins us from Abu Dhabi.
But Nick, let's start with you and a very painful Day, of course, in Israel, as the bodies of these four hostages will make their final journey home. What is the mood there right now?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, this is the first time that Hamas is repatriating, sending home the remains of hostages that they took. Hamas has said, at least as far as the Bibas family is concerned that they were killed in an Israeli airstrike. That's something that Israeli officials have not acknowledged, and they've not been able to say with clarity until now, and they still can't, at this moment where we stand today, that in fact, what Hamas is saying is true, that they are handing over the bodies of the Bibas families and Oded Lifshitz, because the IDF has not had that level of information.
The families, of course, are still desperately, desperately hoping, and have appealed to people in the country, here in Israel, not to eulogize their loved ones until their certainty their bodies -- the bodies that are being handed over today will, by the end of the day, be at an institute for forensic medicine where that final determination will be -- will be made.
But it's been a very, very difficult journey for the country. The forum for the families say this is something that is essentially, you know, cut to the heart. The Prime Minister alluded to the same thing, and really, it's those images of Shiri Bibas clutching and trying to protect her Ariel, who was just 4 years old and 9-month-old Kfir, clutching them, hugging them, trying to shield them under a blanket when she was being captured, the absolute fear and horror on her face as she was being taken away, kidnapped by Hamas.
Everyone in Israel knows that image, and it is not just something that parents are aware of. This is something people watch on their T.V.s. Children in Israel are aware of it too.
[02:05:04]
And it's been an emotional roller coaster when those first 105 hostages were released back in November 2023. The Bibas family were not among them, and that shocked people. And it wasn't just the three who were missing Yarden the husband was also taken by -- also taken by Hamas.
So, it's been something that all Israelis are immersed in the travails, and the hopes of the Bibas family that they would be returned. And there have been moments where Hamas said they were dead, the country didn't want to believe it. And this is really that painful journey that the family are on, that the country has shared with them, and the reality of it will be known, perhaps later today, perhaps tomorrow.
But yes, you're right, this is something that cuts to the core of the country right now.
CHURCH: Yes, it is a heartbreaking moment. And Paula, how will this sensitive transfer proceed? And why is Hamas releasing the bodies of the four hostages at this time, with six living hostages then expected to be released on Saturday?
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Rosemary, what we can see at this point is quite similar to what we have seen in former weeks, when we have been seeing the live hostages handed back. We see Hamas militants gathering. We see a stage with chairs and a table and also propaganda posters, which is what we are used to seeing with these handovers.
Now, what we are expecting to see are Red Cross vehicles arriving shortly. The International Committee of the Red Cross has been integral to this process over recent weeks, the hostages, in this case, the remains of deceased hostages, will be handed over to the Red Cross at this location in Khan Yunis, just east of Khan Yunis in the southern Gaza Strip. They will then be taken to where the Israeli military is waiting.
Still within Gaza, they will be handed over to the Israeli military, and then the IDF will bring them into Israel and to that the forensics Institute, as Nic was talking about, where that key formal identification will take place, we're hearing it could be up to 48 hours before formal identification can be verified.
Now, the reason Hamas is doing this at this point, we know that there have been negotiations ongoing in Cairo this week, and we understand that as part of that, this is Hamas and Israel negotiating indirectly. They have the mediators of the U.S., Qatar and Egypt, trying to bring the two sides closer together.
And within that framework of the mediation, they agreed that they would hand over the remains of four deceased hostages today, and they have agreed there will be six live hostages released on Saturday, as opposed to the three that were expected. And then next week, there will also be the remains of four more deceased hostages that will be handed back, that will bring the total that are released to 33 including separate to this, five Thai hostages who have been released as well in recent weeks, that will bring the total of the first phase of this hostage cease fire deal, to the amount that had been agreed upon.
So, the assumption is, at this point, that Hamas is trying to accelerate this first phase of the cease fire deal in the hope of getting to the second phase, which is when full peace will be declared, when the cease fire becomes permanent, when the military pulls out, when the remaining hostages are released in return for a number of Palestinian prisoners.
Of course, that phase two is not guaranteed. We are hearing from the Israeli side. Certainly there are concerns that Hamas has not been fully destroyed, which was one of the stated war goals of the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
So, there are some question marks as to whether or not that will progress to phase two. We understand that there is an Israeli delegation in Cairo this week. Whether they have started to talk about phase two is not clear at this point. They are still talking about what we are seeing today, what we will be seeing, the handover of those final hostages, bringing the number to 33 for this phase one, Rosemary.
CHURCH: And as you mentioned, the International Red Cross on its way to make that transfer, we will, of course, stay on top of this very sensitive story. Paula Hancocks in Abu Dhabi and Nic Robertson in Jerusalem. Our thanks to both of you.
Well, the U.S. president is being accused of parroting Kremlin talking points as he escalates his feud with the Ukrainian president. Donald Trump issued a barrage of falsehoods on Wednesday, which included labeling Volodymyr Zelenskyy a dictator and inflating the amount of wartime aid Ukraine has received.
[02:10:15]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: A dictator without elections. Zelenskyy better move faster. He's not going to have a country left.
I love Ukraine, but Zelenskyy has done a terrible job. His country is shattered.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHURCH: President Zelenskyy took a more diplomatic tone in his latest remarks, saying the world must choose between Russia's Vladimir Putin and peace. CNN's Nick Paton Walsh reports from Kyiv.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This was the day it was all meant to get back on track. President Trump's envoy, Keith Kellogg, coming to town to listen.
KEITH KELLOGG, U.S. RUSSIA-UKRAINE ENVOY: We understand the need for security guarantees.
WALSH (voice-over): But he was walking into a storm. Hours earlier, Trump falsely said Ukraine started the war.
TRUMP: You should have never started it. You could have made a deal. WALSH (voice-over): And he falsely stated Zelenskyy had only 4 percent approval rating. Basically, Kremlin talking points at which Zelenskyy hit back.
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Unfortunately, President Trump, I have great respect for him as a leader of a nation that we have great respect for, the American people who always support us, unfortunately lives in this disinformation space.
WALSH (voice-over): Trump retorted with extraordinary words, calling Zelenskyy a dictator, refusing to hold elections, falsely repeating half of USAID had gone, quote, "missing," and saying Zelenskyy wanted the gravy train to keep going and had better move fast if he wanted a country left.
Russia advancing still both on the frontline and on the diplomatic arena with Trump's top officials in Saudi Arabia. Imagine hearing today's outburst from your main backer while fighting on the frontlines, almost ripping up the U.S.-Ukraine relationship and making it harder still to answer the question of what peace deal works for Ukraine.
WALSH: Mr. President, we've heard the idea of security guarantees again and again from the Americans, but they don't want to put troops on the grounds, they don't want to put you in part of NATO. How would security guarantees potentially look given those restraints? Can you explain what would work?
ZELENSKYY: What will work? I think NATO will work really, but I --
WALSH: But they won't let you win.
ZELENSKYY: Yes, yes. Yes, it's true. It's true. The strongest -- but when they said, for example, no boots on the ground, you know, but they have ships, but they have air defense. They really have it. America, they have it. They have air defense. OK. Can we have 20 systems of petrol (ph)? It's enough.
WALSH (voice-over): We heard ourselves how the threat is over Kyiv most nights when the Russian drones come.
WALSH: Let me just pause and let you hear that.
WALSH (voice-over): This is why a peace deal must be real and urgent.
Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, Kyiv, Ukraine.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHURCH: As Nick just reported, Ukraine is not getting a break from Russian strikes, despite the U.S. talks with the Kremlin. Russia has hit the Ukrainian port city of Odessa with a massive drone attack for the second day in a row, wounding one person and leaving tens of thousands without power. That's according to a local official. And that's after more than 160 new drones targeted Ukraine, according to a statement from President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, on Wednesday, some of them hit the city of Odessa, leaving four people injured and knocking out power to more than 160,000 others. It happened as temperatures in the area fell below freezing point.
But Russia also took some fire itself as Ukrainian drones struck an oil refinery in the southwestern city of Syzran. The attack started a fire which forced the refinery to stop its operations. According to one source who spoke with Reuters, Mr. Zelenskyy struck an optimistic tone on Wednesday, despite his war of words with the U.S. president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZELENSKYY (through translator): Together with America and Europe, peace can be more secure, and this is our goal. Most importantly, this should not be just our goal, but the goal shared with our partners, especially as we approach the third anniversary of this war, a war that Ukraine has wanted to end from the very first second.
I'm confident we will achieve this, securing the lasting peace in a way that Russia will not be able to invade Ukraine again, where Ukrainian prisoners are freed, and where our country has a future.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHURCH: Cedric Leighton is a CNN Military Analyst and a retired Air Force Colonel. He joins us now. Good to have you with us, sir.
COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Oh, thanks for having me, Rose.
CHURCH: So, as part of the fallout from U.S.-Russia negotiations in Riyadh, we are seeing an escalation in tensions between President Trump and Ukraine's President Zelenskyy, Trump now calling Zelenskyy a dictator without elections after Zelenskyy said Trump is living in a disinformation space when Trump falsely accused Ukraine of starting the war with Russia.
[02:15:16]
What's your reaction to this radical shift in U.S. foreign policy, the leader of the free world now aligning himself with Russia and apparently turning his back on U.S. allies, altering the world order?
LEIGHTON: Yes, let's hope it doesn't come to that very precise scenario. But it does look, certainly like President Trump is abandoning Ukraine and moving into Putin's orbit basically. And that is absolutely the wrong move for the United States, from a strategic perspective, and frankly, from a personal perspective.
What this does is it upends the entire world order that has been established basically since the end of the Second World War, in order that has taken the sacrifices of millions of American and allied service members to not only create but to preserve. And that is something that I think, you know, the president may be
ignorant of but it is certainly making things very difficult for our allies, for the people of the countries that we've considered to be our allies, and it's making it exceptionally difficult for Ukraine, and that is absolutely the wrong thing to do at this juncture.
So, it's a very regrettable result, and it's something that I hope that can be reversed in short order.
CHURCH: And Colonel, Russia has made a number of demands ahead of a peace deal being made, including one that would have Ukraine become a demilitarized, neutral state, not a part of any blocs or alliances.
Given this and of course, other Russian demands, what might a final peace agreement look like, considering Trump appears to be favoring Russia on this?
LEIGHTON: I assume that would be what we used to call finlandization, a Cold War term that referred to the neutral status that Finland had at the time.
Now, of course, Finland is currently a NATO member and a new NATO member, along with Sweden. And that is reflective of things that the previous administration was trying to do, to do exactly the opposite, basically create a NATO state that -- or NATO alliance that not only was expansive, but also could respond effectively to any Russian aggression, the way in which the Russians are pursuing this would indicate that they would not only want a neutral Ukraine, but that they would take a much more aggressive approach to Ukraine after these peace negotiations are concluded.
And that might mean that Ukraine could fall victim to an outright takeover attempt by the Russians, basically a continuation of the invasion from February of 2022 and that would be something that would not only be bad for Ukraine, but would be bad for NATO and ultimately bad for the United States as well.
CHURCH: And Colonel, meantime, the war in Ukraine rages on with Russian drones hitting the Kursk Region. What is your assessment of where things stand on the battlefield right now?
LEIGHTON: Well, we're continuing to see a war of attrition. There are some movements. There's some indication that around the town of Pokrovsk that Ukraine has actually made some progress in trying to, if not turn back, at least stall any Russian advances in that area. It's taken the Russians a long time to get to Pokrovsk and to take it over. They have been successful there, although the lead up to this particular point in time was a cause for concern in that particular area.
But in essence, we have a stalled out situation where both sides have maintained most of territories that they've controlled, and it very much looks as if it's going to be difficult for either side to dislodge the other.
Now, the Russians have an advantage in population and in manpower and in numbers of weapons, the Ukrainians have an advantage in terms of at least somewhat of an advantage in terms of battlefield tactics and in terms of their will to fight.
So that, of course, makes for a very interesting dynamic, but it is definitely a meat grinder in most parts of the front line, especially in the East and in the Kursk Region, the Ukrainian occupied area of Russia.
So that, in essence, means that things are basically where they were a few months ago, and that is something that becomes very difficult for Ukraine to sustain over the long term.
CHURCH: And Colonel, what happens to Ukraine militarily if the U.S. turns its back on the war torn nation?
[02:20:01]
LEIGHTON: It would be very difficult for Ukraine to continue to fight at the level that it has been fighting, not impossible, though. If the Europeans step into fill the void, countries like France, Germany, Great Britain, and, of course, the near countries like Poland, Czech Republic, the Baltic states, they have proven that they can provide Ukraine with certain weapons, and they've done a fairly good job of maintaining those supply lines to the Ukrainians, so that those efforts would have to be stepped up.
It would mean that the budgets for these countries, the defense budgets for these countries would be stretched, but it also means that Europe would have to, in essence, approach this almost in a way that the Russians have, which is to create a war footing for their economy. The Russians have gone very extreme in that direction. The Europeans will, you know, have to do something very similar to that in order to keep Ukraine a sovereign nation.
CHURCH: Colonel Cedric Leighton, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your analysis with us. Appreciate it.
LEIGHTON: You bet, Rosemary, anytime.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
CHURCH: I want to welcome our viewers joining us here in the United States as we go live now to Khan Yunis in Gaza, where we're seeing the first signs that Hamas is handing over the bodies of four deceased hostages.
Israel has said it is expecting the transfer of Shiri Bibas and her two young sons, Ariel and Kfir, as well as Oded Lifshitz, who was 83 years old when he was captured on October 7th, 2023.
I want to bring in CNN International Diplomatic Editor Nic Robertson. He joins us live from Jerusalem and Nic, as you and I were talking earlier, this is a very painful day for Israel. Talk us through what is happening here as we watch these live pictures of the International Red Cross vehicles arriving. ROBERTSON: Yes. On the one hand, you've got the International Red Cross vehicles arriving, and I've been looking at the sort of wider pictures of what is happening here and what's unfolding in Gaza right now is exactly, exactly the opposite of what the families, the Lifshitz family, the Bibas family, had wanted exactly what the -- not what they wanted, exactly not what was wanted by the families forum, exactly, not what was wanted and called for by the prime minister's office, by the military here.
The whole of Israel was hoping that this would be a dignified handover of these four sets of remains. But what appears to be happening on stage is another version of what we've seen when the living prisoners have been released, they get paraded. They are forced to make statements on stage.
Here it appears again a moment that Hamas is choosing to politicize with a huge banner depicting Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, along with the images of the four people Hamas says are in the caskets that are on the stage there. And very clearly blaming Prime Minister Netanyahu for the deaths of these four hostages.
Israel's position has been very, very clear on this, that they've not been able to substantiate Hamas' allegations that therefore were killed in Israeli air strikes, but the whole Hamas, if you will, propaganda or political messaging around this is that is exactly what they're saying. They have huge images on the stage to catch that point, to make that point.
So, on the stage, you have the four wooden caskets. And on each of the caskets, you have an image of the person, the Bibas children, Shiri Bibas, Oded Lifshitz, a photograph of them on the casket, and you have another photograph of the prime minister, again on each casket, accusing him of being responsible here.
Again, this is exactly the opposite of what Israel is, the government, the families, the families forums were all hoping wouldn't happen, but it will be. Shortly, we're expecting these caskets to be transferred and handed over to those Red Cross vehicles, and the Red Cross vehicles will then take the caskets away to the edge of Gaza and hand them over to the IDF. It will be a much more solemn series of events that unfold from there. But at the moment in Gaza, a handover, but a handover that appears to be very heavily politicized.
[02:25:11]
CHURCH: Indeed. And Nic, as we continue to look at these live pictures coming from Khan Yunis, I want to go to our Paula Hancocks, who is standing by live in Abu Dhabi.
And Paula, Nic was talking there about the process here, because of course, we're going to be watching this as the four bodies are taken and put in those vehicles. Talk to us about what happens after this.
HANCOCKS: Well, Rosemary, you see the Red Cross vehicles that are waiting there. At some point, there will be -- the caskets will be carried into those vehicles and the Red Cross will then drive away from this area, in the east of Khan Yunis towards where they have a meeting point with the Israeli military.
Now it's there that they will be handing over the remains of these deceased hostages to the IDF. At that point, the IDF will be the ones to drive them back into Israel, and their remains will then be taken to a Forensic Institute, where the process of formal identification will begin.
Now, up until this point, we have the word of Hamas that these are, in fact, the individuals that they are sending the remains back of.
But we have heard from the families of these four that they are waiting for that formal identification. The Bibas family saying they don't want eulogizing until it has been confirmed that they are, in fact, the bodies of the Bibas family.
So, this process could take up to 48 hours, and then there will be that confirmation if it does, in fact come, and then the burials and laying to rest in Israel of these four individuals.
So, the process will be fairly similar to what we have seen in recent weeks when it comes to the live hostages. For the fact that the International Committee of the Red Cross is very much involved. There is clearly no direct interaction between Hamas and the IDF. The Red Cross is there to facilitate this process, to take the remains from Hamas and hand them over to Israel, Rosemary.
CHURCH: And Nic, just going back to you there live in Jerusalem, as we watch these live pictures of the International Red Cross vehicles waiting for that transfer. And of course, the tragedy of all of this is the two youngest victims here, and we don't really know what has happened.
Talk us through what has happened in terms of information from Gaza about these two young children.
ROBERTSON: Yes, Kfir was just 9 months old when he was abducted, along with his brother, Ariel, who was 4 years old, in the arms of their mother, Shiri. And the whereabouts of them have been unknown. Their fate has been unknown through this whole time.
Now, back in November 2023, there was a cease fire pause over a period of six days and 105 civilian hostages were released, and the Bibas family wasn't among them. And I think the hopes had been, because these were the youngest to be abducted with their mother, that they would be among those released.
And sometime a month or so following that, Hamas said that they were killed in an Israeli air strike, a narrative, I have to say that Hamas is continuing and making a huge point out at the handover today.
But the families, of course, looked to the IDF for clarification about this. The families spoke at the time about being in a living hell, in a nightmare, waking up was when the nightmares began is how one of the relatives, the Bibas relatives described what they were going through.
They looked to the IDF to give them clarity on what Hamas had alleged, and in all the time since then, the IDF was not able to say with any certainty were the three still alive, or were they dead, or how did they -- how did they die? That's remained a mystery.
But you had Hamas then, in the days after that, allegation that the IDF, in an air strike, had killed the two boys and their mother, Yarden, the husband, the father of the two boys was then paraded on television in a recorded video clip by Hamas and said that Prime Minister Netanyahu was responsible. This is a man who was a prisoner and obviously --
Jjjj
[02:30:00]
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: -- said that Prime Minister Netanyahu was responsible. This is a man who was a prisoner and obviously, held under duress and speaking, clearly not of his own free will. But he was used in that way by Hamas, again, part of the emotional rollercoaster and as Israeli officials said at the time, and the family said at the time, part of the psychological torture that they were put through in -- over this period.
And I think the nation absolutely grieved, again, about the Bibas family and paused when Yarden himself was released on the 1st of February, one of the -- one of the early ones to be released in these latest phase one ceasefire hostage handover agreements. They cheered. Israelis had cheered when they'd seen the other hostages, living hostages released and freed. But there was silence when Yarden was released because everyone knew the hell of what he was walking into.
He was coming out of the awful captivity and that uncertainty, but coming back to the near certainty that his closest loved ones were dead, and the nation really felt that moment as well. And that was, you could see that in the silence when that handover happened. Today, again, political leaders are talking about the pain. The family's forums who represent the families are talking about the pain cutting to the heart, and that really seems to represent people's feelings.
I think the way that the handover is happening today is going to cause political statements in Israel, the sort of political statements that we saw when just two -- or a week and a half ago, three hostages were handed over who looked incredibly emaciated. The kind of outrage that was triggered when two or so weeks ago, Palestinian Islamic Jihad handed over one of the hostages, a young female hostage they had, and there was just a pandemonium and chaos as that happened.
This is not going to sit well with the Israeli leadership. Hamas knows that. They are making their point and a point that is being raised today by Hamas, by authorities inside of Gaza as they point to the fact they say that more than 17,000 children have been killed during Israeli bombardment. There's a reflection in Gaza as they witness this handover of what they have suffered. And this just speaks to the tension, the discordance that exists in this situation, this polarization, the extremes that the war have brought -- that the war has brought. And of course, this undergirds the pain of the families who will feel it more excruciatingly than anyone else today.
ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN ANCHOR OF "CNN NEWSROOM": Yeah, I mean, it's -- we can't emphasize enough the painful scenes that we are conveying to our viewers today. And Paula, returning to you, Paula Hancocks in Abu Dhabi. Of course, as Nic was speaking there and reporting, we could see the Red Cross vehicles getting into position and opening up to take the transfer of these caskets. And you were mentioning this, we're seeing the transfer, the sensitive transfer today of these four -- these four bodies, and then on Saturday, the release of six hostages. Talk to us about the acceleration. You mentioned that there's a sense that Hamas is trying to accelerate this phase to move on to the second phase.
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So what we know at this point, Rosemary, is that there have been negotiations in Cairo that -- that they're largely focusing on phase one at this point, when they really were supposed to be focusing on nailing down the phase two when there would be the permanent ceasefire, the release of all hostages and more Palestinian prisoners.
But, what we saw coming out of those negotiations was that Hamas had agreed to release the remains of four deceased hostages today. In addition, they will release six live hostages on Saturday, as opposed to the expected three. And then next week, they say they will release the remains of four more of the deceased hostages. That will bring us to the number of 33, which is what was agreed on for this -- this first phase of the hostage release program, the first phase of the ceasefire.
In addition to that, there were five Thai hostages released as well. And so what we're really seeing is an acceleration towards the end of this first phase. It's the beginning of March when phase two was intended to begin, and it was always known that it was going to be extremely difficult to get to that point.
[02:35:00]
It was always known that there would be some reticence, potentially on both parts. But what we're seeing here is Hamas accelerating this through the mediators, the U.S., Qatar, and Egypt, and deciding that they would release all of these 33. What we're potentially seeing on the Israeli side though is some reticence to quickly finish this phase one, as not all of the war goals have been achieved. This is what we've heard repeatedly from the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, that they want to see Hamas destroyed.
Now, of course, that -- the images that we see today, for example, show that, that is not the case. That there is still a working semblance of Hamas within Gaza. And as we watch these images, we do see that the transfer is currently taking place, that the Red Cross will then take these remains to Israel. But what we are -- what we are seeing is Hamas showing that it is still in control, and that is not something that Israel wants to see. It is not part of the stated war goals when they wanted Hamas to be completely destroyed. So the key now, and the very difficult part for the mediators in Cairo and also in Qatar, is how to push the process forward to that second phase when you will see the remainder of the hostages being released and in turn, the ceasefire becoming permanent, the end of the war, and the Israeli military pulling out of Gaza. Something which many officials have said is potentially not possible at this point, given the fact you see that Hamas, at least in this very small pocket that we have eyes on at this point of Gaza, is very much in charge.
So we are seeing more hostages being released than anticipated at this stage, potentially a speed up by Hamas, wanting to secure that next phase. But it is still very much in the air. As far as we understand it, the negotiations have not begun in earnest to secure this phase two. But we do know that there is an Israeli delegation that had been sent to Egypt. So, it is something we will endeavor to get more information on, but it is something that is very much in the air at this point, whether on March 2nd, when this first phase ends, whether the second phase will start.
Now, we heard from the foreign minister that they said -- he said, they are committed to aiming to reach an agreement by the 42nd day of the truce and that is March 2nd. But there are no guarantees that the permanent ceasefire is an option at this point, but it is not a guarantee. Rosemary?
CHURCH: And Nic Robertson, returning to you there in your position live in Jerusalem, as we watch these live pictures from Khan Younis in Gaza. We can see the bodies of the four hostages being placed in those Red Cross vehicles. Talk us through, again, for those viewers who may have just joined us, the process now. What happens after this?
ROBERTSON: Yeah, we are getting a good sense of that process because of how it has worked, for previous handovers. The sort of formulation of it that the Red Cross drives the hostages and in this case, the remains of the hostages, not the living hostages. The 19 living hostages who we've already seem released in this phase one part of the agreement. The Red Cross drives them to the border where they're handed over to the IDF.
The IDF will then take them and drive them to an Institute for Forensic Medicine where a proper and final identification of who exactly is in those caskets will take place, and that will verify or not what Hamas says about who is in those caskets. But I think, one of the interesting things for me, as we've just heard from one of the sons of Oded Lifshitz, who is one of those hostages' remains being returned there.
His son said, in a few minutes, my father will be with the IDF for the first time since October 7th, a little late he says, because of course, in their Kibbutz Nir Oz, which Oded Lifshitz was a founder of in 1955, the kibbutz where there were 117 people either murdered or abducted, more than 70 abducted. More than a quarter that was of the population in Nir Oz.
[02:40:00] They were the kibbutz that never saw the IDF make it to the kibbutz before Hamas and the others left. They weren't rescued by the Israeli forces, Hamas and the other just left. So that's the point that he is making that the IDF will get my father, it's late. But the other point that he makes there is he will be, and this is something we'll expect to see happen when the Red Cross hand the bodies over to the IDF, he says that he will then -- his casket will then be draped in an Israeli flag.
And he says, this will begin a part of closure for the families, the fact that the remains are returned, that there will be some dignity, and a process of grieving he is indicating can then begin to happen.
CHURCH: And Paula, this is the difficulty of this day, isn't it, for a lot of Israelis having to relive the trauma of what happened on October 7th, 2023 and working through all of this and this acceleration, apparently, of the return of the hostages and eagerness on the part of Hamas to move to the second phase. But the other part of this story is trying to determine what happened with the two young boys and their mother, because there's much dispute as to what happened there. Talk to us about that.
HANCOCKS: Yeah. So we have, Rosemary, the version of events from Hamas itself. And this is something that the Israeli military up to this day has not been able to definitively confirm or deny. Now, the Hamas itself says that the three, Shiri -- that the mother and Ariel and Kfir were killed by an Israeli airstrike. Now, this is something that was spoken about by Hamas shortly after October 7th. It was something that we saw Hamas parading the father, Yarden, who was also taken hostage and just recently released.
He was forced to make a video blaming Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli Prime Minister, for the airstrike that killed his family. Now, this was released back in November of 2023. So for many, many months, Israel has known that this is the version of events that Hamas has put forward. Now, of course, it was something that nobody wanted to believe, that the family certainly didn't want to believe that this is what had happened.
But when you did have that first hostage release about a month after the attack on Israel, and the three of them were not involved in that release when it was family -- it was females and children that were released, that obviously sent off alarm bells. Now, we don't know at this point exactly what happened, and the fact that the Israeli authorities are unable to specify what happened as well speaks volumes.
But of course, this is being used by Hamas as a propaganda tool. The fact of the scene that we are seeing in Khan Younis at this point, much of which we are not going to show and we know that much of the Israeli media is not showing either, is a propaganda tool showing the demonization of the Israeli prime minister, pointing to the fact that it in Hamas' posters and words, it was him that was responsible for the deaths of these Israeli hostages. Also, some of the propaganda posters pointing out it was using American weapons. But of course, this is something that Hamas is going to take advantage of. It is something that they are trying to make a political message out of the reason why we are not showing these images at what is a very sensitive time and a sensitive handover of the remains of these hostages, something which you can see that the International Committee of the Red Cross appreciates as they are putting up these white barriers to try and shield the images of these caskets being put into the back of their vehicles, which will then be taken on to be passed on to the Israeli military.
They are very difficult scenes for those in Israel to be watching, potentially very few will be able to be watching them because of the sensitivities and because of the decision to not allow Hamas this moment of propaganda gain, as they would see it.
[02:45:00]
And we also heard on the loudspeaker, before the Red Cross vehicles arrived, in Arabic and also in English, which was -- which was notable, one of the Hamas militants pointing out the -- what the Gazans have gone through, pointing out the lack of food, shelter, education. So really trying to make something out of this at a time when they know many will be watching, many will be listening, and trying to bring their message across. But as you can see, the Red Cross were trying to shield the images somewhat, as they understand the sensitivities around this as well. Rosemary?
CHURCH: Indeed, this day is about these four Israeli hostages making their final journey home. Want to go to Nic Robertson again. Nic, take us through the next phase, once they move to phase two of this ceasefire agreement, what are the main stumbling blocks ahead?
ROBERTSON: The biggest stumbling block has to be that phase two envisages lays out the terms of and begins a permanent ceasefire with a permanent withdrawal of all Israeli forces from inside of Gaza. And that's how it's been envisioned. It is contentious at many levels. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is under threat of some in his government that they want him to go back to war. So phase two to them is a complete anathema.
Phase two would also see the return of all the remaining hostages, after this week, we calculate that is in the region of about 56 remaining hostages, about half or just more than half of those are still alive. Many of them are soldiers. So for Hamas, they would see those as sort of higher-value prisoners, if you will, to keep. What we've seen in the past is Hamas is willing to keep hostages, kidnapped Israeli soldiers year after year after year after year as bargaining chips.
So you can see going into phase two, on the one hand, there are members of the Israeli government that don't want a phase two, to pull all the troops out and have a permanent ceasefire. On the other hand, Hamas has hostages, living hostages that the Israelis desperately want back. But we also know and understand from Hamas' previous actions that they will be quite ready to hold onto those -- some of those hostages because they see them as bargaining chips going forward to try to get leverage on what they want.
Then there's the incredible juxtaposition, unreality that exists at the moment that Prime Minister Netanyahu, President Donald Trump, have said very clearly that Hamas can have no political or military future in Gaza whatsoever. Hamas' officials are saying the contrary, that they are there, they may increase their numbers, they have no intention of leaving Gaza. And as we see on days like today, they are still an organized military force.
They may not have the rocketry to be able to strike at Israel in the way that they would've done two years ago, but in the eyes of Israel, any amount of Hamas there means that they will just intend to rebuild, reconstitute, and continue to be a threat to the security of Israel. So, you have these widely divergent positions with massive divergent political pressures on them, all of which are in theory to be resolved in less than two weeks. That's an absolute absurd unreality to imagine that that's going to happen to the satisfaction of either President Trump or satisfaction to Israel or Palestinians in Gaza or Hamas in Gaza.
It is a huge, huge crossroads that we are at and it's always been thus. The reason that the ceasefire deal was broken down into these phases is because that's the only way that it could be structured, that there'd be a level of agreement. If we go back a year or so almost, there was this similar phase one, phase two, phase three structure, but they were more interlinked. This implementation has them less linked. But the linkage was that two weeks ago in phase one, phase two, the permanent ceasefire was supposed to be under discussion. It is not under discussion yet.
And when it's not clear, although the foreign Minister said a couple of days ago that it would happen this week. It is not clear precisely when phase two conversations begin.
[02:50:00]
So in terms of the negotiations and ceasefire, it's in a -- it is in a sort of deadlock where Israel wants as many live hostages released as possible, because there's pressure on the Israeli government to get that done. Many people in Israel are saying, stop the war. Whatever you do, just stop the war, get the prisoners all released. And then if you want to go back to war, go back to war. There's a sentiment that says that. Hamas is aware of that sentiment and is aware that as long as they've got living hostages, they've got bargaining chips in their favor. That's where we stand today.
CHURCH: And Paula Hancocks, back to you in Abu Dhabi, as we continue to watch these live pictures from Khan Younis in Gaza. Hamas has transferred the bodies of the four hostages to these vehicles, the Red Cross vehicles, and they are starting to prepare to move out. Talk us through this process and what happens after this.
HANCOCKS: Well, this is -- from this point, quite similar to what we have seen in previous weeks. The fact that once the hostages are inside the Red Cross vehicles, they will then depart. They will then go to a pre-ordained spot that they have organized with the Israeli military. And there, there will be a handover between the Red Cross and the IDF of the hostages. So in this particular case, once that handover has been given to the Israeli military, still inside Gaza, we understand that the IDF will then transport the remains into Israel, and they will then transfer them to a forensics institute, where they will begin the immediate process of identifying the bodies.
At this point, we have Hamas saying that these are the identities of these four bodies. This will obviously need to be verified by the Israeli authorities to check that it is in fact the three members of the Bibas family and also Oded Lifshitz. What -- the process itself we understand could take up to 48 hours, to have that final identification. And then, the bodies will be released to the families and they will be able to bury them. They will have their funerals shortly after that and start the very long process of grieving, once they finally have the identification and the confirmation.
It is something that we have heard from the Bibas family, for example. They have said that they are not going to -- they don't want to see eulogizing for their loved ones until they have that final confirmation of the identification. And you can see there, the Red Cross vehicles moving slowly through those crowds, crowds of Hamas, and also of Palestinian Islamic Jihad we've seen, and also a number of, of bystanders. We've even seen children in those crowds, coming to see this process. So, the Red Cross vehicles will now be leaving this area of Khan Younis in the southern part of the Gaza Strip, and they will be heading towards an area where they know they will be meeting the IDF. And that is where the Israeli military will take charge, take control once again of these four Israelis.
CHURCH: And Nic, just going back to you now in Jerusalem, as we watch these Red Cross vehicles move out of Khan Younis with the bodies of those four hostages and head toward the IDF, still inside Gaza and then onto Israel, talk to us again about how this is going to be received. You mentioned how political this has been, and talk to us about what Prime Minister Netanyahu will probably make of all of this.
ROBERTSON: Yeah, and what we're going to see when the handover happens is going to be a very, very important moment for the families, for Israelis that, as you saw, the politicization of the caskets and the images put on the caskets, and then the Red Cross putting white sheets over the caskets as they took one -- the four caskets, each casket went in a separate vehicle. It's a very solemn convoy leaving Gaza right now.
[02:55:00]
But that important moment is when the IDF will get control of these remains and they will wrap each casket in the Israeli flag. And that will be a very, very important moment for people to see and to feel and to know that they are back, dead maybe, but back on Israeli soil, back in Israeli hands.
CHURCH: A painful day for Israel. Paula Hancocks in Abu Dhabi, Nic Robertson in Jerusalem, many thanks for taking us through these moments.
And I want to thank you for joining us. I'm Rosemary Church. Our breaking news coverage continues after a short break.
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