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Hamas Releases Four Bodies of Deceased Hostages; Pope Francis in Stable Condition After Pneumonia Diagnosis; Scholz, Merz Faced Off in a Final Debate Ahead of the Elections in Germany; Archaeologists Found a Tomb of a Pharaoh in Egypt. Aired 3-4a ET

Aired February 20, 2025 - 03:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[03:00:00]

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UNKNOWN (voice-over): This is CNN Breaking News.

ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and welcome, I'm Rosemary Church.

Right now, the bodies of four deceased hostages, including the two youngest children kidnapped on October 7th, are on their way to Israel.

We have been watching a crowd of militants and civilians gathered in Khan Younis, where Hamas handed the bodies over to the Red Cross. They will then turn the remains over at the border to the IDF to be driven into Israel.

The Bibas children, with their bright red hair, became two of the most recognizable victims of the Hamas terror attacks. Kfir Bibas was just nine months old, and his brother Ariel four years old, when they and their mother Shiri were taken from their kibbutz.

Oded Lifshitz was 83 years old when he and his wife were kidnapped on October 7th. She was released alive later that month. This was the first handover of dead hostages since the ceasefire deal with Hamas went into effect in January.

CNN's international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson is live this hour in Jerusalem, and our Paula Hancocks is standing by in Abu Dhabi.

Nic, I want to go to you first. Of course, we have just been reporting on this, but take us through this difficult day for Israel as the bodies of these four hostages are now returning home.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: This is not a day like the previous releases. This is not a day of joy where people are celebrating the moment that they see the hostages being handed over to the Red Cross.

There's none of that. In fact, it is so much the reverse that because of the sensitive nature of this particular handover, excuse me, because of the sensitive nature of it, Israeli T.V. channels are not showing the images of the handover from Gaza.

I'm sure once the caskets arrive and are handed over to the IDF and the IDF releases the still pictures and the video that we've seen them do at previous releases, the coverage will really pick up and begin then.

For Israelis, this is a very solemn and difficult day. The fate of the Bibas family is something that they followed particularly closely.

The fate of all the hostages and victims from Nir Oz, because Oded Lifshitz, like the Bibas family, was also from Nir Oz. That kibbutz very, very close to Gaza that suffered so greatly, more than a quarter of its population either killed or taken hostage.

This is a day that's going to be difficult for the kibbutz. It's going to be a day that's difficult for the families.

But again, to come back to your broader point, for Israelis, the suffering and rollercoaster that they followed the young Bibas family, the youngest of the victims of October 7th, is one that's cut to the emotion of the country.

Everyone knows that searing image of Shiri Bibas trying to shield Kfir and Ariel, you know, sort of with a blanket with her arms around them. The absolute fear on her face as Hamas is taking her away.

Her husband is somewhere else. He's bloodied and being taken away by Hamas somewhere else. She doesn't know what's happening.

And that tantalizing glimpse, a video of her that the IDF found in Gaza in early 2024 that showed the moments that Shiri was inside of Gaza not long after she was abducted. The whole country hanging on that moment to that video, trying to hope that there was some clues in there or something that could give them better information about her fate.

Yes, today would be a difficult day. And it's exemplified by the fact that unlike previous days, we've been down in Hostages Square.

On the huge screen there, there's been the images relayed of what Israeli television channels are covering of the handovers inside of Gaza. None of that today.

[03:05:05]

This is a much more solemn, somber and sad day. And as one of the sons of Oded Lifshitz has said, this begins some closure.

CHURCH: Yes, indeed. And Paula, I want to head to you in Abu Dhabi because we saw the images of those four hostages, the bodies of those four hostages transferred into those Red Cross vehicles on their way now back home on their final journey home.

And you were talking about how there's a sense that Hamas is trying to accelerate this process, this transfer today of the four bodies of those hostages. And then again, the release of living hostages, six living hostages on Saturday. Talk us through that perception, the optics of this being accelerated by Hamas.

PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Rosemary, we know that there have been negotiations ongoing in Cairo this week. We know that there was an Israeli delegation that was sent to Cairo, that the mediators, the U.S., Qatar and Egypt have been very much involved in pushing this process forward.

Now, these negotiations, we understand, are still talking about phase one. But the result of those negotiations we saw and are seeing today, the fact that Hamas said that they would release the remains of these four deceased hostages today.

The fact that they have said that they will release six live hostages on Saturday, that's double what they were expected to release in return for Palestinian prisoners being released from Israeli jails as well.

And then next week there will be, we understand from Hamas, a further four deceased hostages, their remains being handed to the Red Cross and then back to the Israeli military to be brought into Israel.

At the end of that, that will bring us to the 33 hostages being released that was agreed upon when this ceasefire hostage deal was agreed. This is the first phase, that there would be 33 hostages. In addition, there were five Thai hostages that Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad released as well.

But then, of course, attention turns -- and attention has already turned to phase two, because there are supposed to be detailed negotiations ongoing at this point to try and secure phase two, which would involve all of the hostages being released, further Palestinian prisoners being released from Israeli jails and a formal end to the war. So the temporary ceasefire for six weeks becoming a permanent ceasefire.

Now, this is where things become very difficult. It was known that these negotiations would be difficult. And as far as we understand it, those negotiations have not become detailed.

At this point, the delegations are in Cairo, but they are still discussing or have been this first phase of release. Now, there is a huge amount of pressure on the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, in Israel to secure this second phase, to make sure that all of the hostages come home.

In fact, just recently there was the 500-day commemoration since the October 7th attacks by Hamas. And there were huge amounts of protesters on the streets calling for all the hostages to be released.

But then internally, in his own coalition, his own government, he has the more far right elements saying that they believe that they should be going back to military action to try and secure the complete destruction of Hamas, which was one of the first war goals of the Israeli prime minister.

So what we're seeing from Hamas at this point appears to be an acceleration of the release of these hostages. But it is unknown at this point whether this phase two will be able to be secured. It was known at the beginning the negotiations would be tricky, but certainly they appear to be lagging in where they should be at this point. Rosemary.

CHURCH: Nic Robertson in Jerusalem, Paula Hancocks in Abu Dhabi, thank you both for joining us. We appreciate it.

And joining me now is Paul Salem, vice president of the Middle East Institute, a nonpartisan think tank dedicated to the study of the Middle East. Appreciate you being with us.

PAUL SALEM, VICE PRESIDENT, MIDDLE EAST INSTITUTE: Thank you for having me.

CHURCH: So on this very difficult and painful day for Israel, why do you think Hamas returned the bodies of these four hostages today with plans to then release six living hostages on Saturday and another four bodies next week? And do you believe that this is an effort to accelerate the process, that Hamas is eager to move this on to phase two?

[03:10:10]

SALEM: Yes, I do think that is the case. Obviously, Hamas has been dragging its feet on a number of issues, the Israelis as well, at certain points.

Looming over all of this is President Trump, who has put a lot of pressure first on the Israeli government to accept the ceasefire before he even entered the White House in January 20, and also threatening Hamas, as he said, that all hell would break loose if they wouldn't release all the hostages.

So I think President Trump is also a big player in this. I think Hamas is quite aware that phase two of these negotiations will put Israel, you know, in front of some very difficult decisions that it has to make.

As your correspondents themselves indicated, Prime Minister Netanyahu faces different pressures from within Israel, some of which emphasizing the need to release all hostages, end this war, and move in that direction. But key members of his government didn't even want the ceasefire in the first place, and they're urging a return to war.

Again, I think a major player in this dynamic is President Trump. President Trump has already said that now Gaza is his, and that on the big issues of the future of Gaza he will be making key decisions. He's also said, which must be worrisome for Prime Minister Netanyahu, that he's going to make an announcement on the West Bank soon, and it's not clear what the elements of that announcement will be.

So really phase two is completely up in the air. It might completely collapse, or we might be going in different directions led by the U.S. president. CHURCH: Let's look closely at phase two. What do you see as the major challenges facing Israel and Hamas as they move into this next phase of the ceasefire agreement? And do you believe there will be a day when all the hostages, all the remaining hostages, will come home?

SALEM: Well, I do think there will be a day when all remaining hostages will come home. It's hard to say exactly when that will be.

But the difficulty of phase two is that the different players have pretty much completely different agendas from Prime Minister Netanyahu's point of view, and I would say much of the Israeli public, yes, many of them want all the hostages to come back, but they also want and do support the main aim that Netanyahu announced, which is to destroy Hamas. That clearly has not been achieved.

So there, you know, will be a momentum from the Israeli side to find a way to return to war. I don't think Prime Minister Netanyahu is in a position to accept a complete withdrawal from Gaza, given the pressure and the sort of priorities that he's facing within his government vis- a-vis Hamas.

On Hamas' point of view, they want to stay in Gaza. Sadly, they seem to be okay with, you know, this war going on, the loss of life from the devastating Israeli responses triggered by October 7th. Hamas doesn't seem to care terribly much about that, and the suffering continues.

For the Arab states, they want the Palestinian Authority to come back and to find a way to have an Israeli withdrawal without Hamas remaining in place and to have some form of governance.

And then you bring in President Trump into all of this, and you can see that it is really, really a complicated situation with completely different agendas from the different sides.

CHURCH: Let's look at that, because I want to get an idea from you what you think will happen once all the hostages are released, if that happens, and how much President Donald Trump has complicated that process with his talk of owning Gaza, developing it into what he calls a Middle East Riviera after displacing all Palestinians in the enclave, his goal to send them to Egypt or to Jordan.

SALEM: Well, I would say that, you know, the two main players here are Israel and the United States. I think they -- you know, they're the most influential. And I think President Trump and Prime Minister Netanyahu really have different long-term goals.

For President Trump, he wants this, you know, the various wars relating to this to be over. He considers that a point of pride in his election campaign. It's what he's trying to do in Ukraine and with Ukraine and Russia, maybe very controversially, but that is a priority of his.

In the Israeli-Palestinian and Israeli-Arab conflict, it's quite clear that what he is eyeing is a sort of an ending of the conflict, particularly creating a historic deal between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia and Israel.

That will require a settlement on the West Bank. That gives something for the Palestinians.

[03:15:05]

It probably will require something in Gaza that gives something for the Palestinians as well, maybe very much on Israeli terms, but something.

So I think Trump is moving in that direction of some grand deal, something that is very different than, I think, what Prime Minister Netanyahu and his right-wing government want, which is certainly long- term dominance over Gaza and an annexation of most of the West Bank without really giving anything to the Palestinians.

So those are the two, I think, competing visions. As you say, in the mix, all of this, is the Gazans, the two-point-something million Palestinians in Gaza.

Trump says he wants them out, but I also think he's indicating that that is a negotiation, a strong negotiating position. He's putting pressure on Egypt, on Jordan, on the Arab countries.

Secretary of State Marco Rubio was in Saudi Arabia asking for Saudi proposals about Gaza. So Trump is the one who's going to be sort of buying and selling on the issue of Gaza, and that really puts Prime Minister Netanyahu in a weaker position.

CHURCH: Paul Salem, thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate it.

SALEM: Thank you.

CHURCH: The U.S. president has been lashing out at his Ukrainian counterpart in an astonishing series of taunts that are alarming European allies and delighting the Kremlin.

In written and verbal remarks filled with falsehoods, Donald Trump branded Volodymyr Zelenskyy a dictator and accused him of prolonging the Russia-Ukraine war to, quote, "keep the gravy train going, meaning U.S. military aid."

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DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: He refuses to have elections. He's slow in the real Ukrainian polls. Somebody said, oh, no, his polls are good. Give me a break.

The only thing he was really good at was playing Joe Biden like a fiddle. A dictator without elections, Zelenskyy better move fast or he's not going to have a country left. Got to move. Got to move fast.

I love Ukraine, but Zelenskyy has done a terrible job.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CHURCH: President Zelenskyy says the world must choose between peace and Vladimir Putin and suggested Mr. Trump was repeating Russian disinformation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): I believe the United States helped Putin get out of many years of isolation. Unfortunately, President Trump, I have great respect for him as a leader of a nation that we have great respect for, the American people who always support us. Unfortunately, he lives in this disinformation space.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: Meanwhile, prominent members of President Trump's own Republican Party have been stressing what is already widely known, that it was Russia, not Ukraine, that started the war. And some have been cautiously pushing back on Mr. Trump's criticism of President Zelenskyy.

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SEN. LISA MURDOWSKI (R-AK): I would like to see that in context because I would certainly never refer to President Zelenskyy as a dictator.

SEN. JOHN THURNE (R-SD): The president speaks for himself. What I want to see is a peaceful result, a peaceful outcome.

SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): Make no mistake about it, that invasion was the responsibility of one human being on the face of this planet. It was Vladimir Putin.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: After President Trump's barbs, European allies were quick to express support for President Zelenskyy. The German chancellor posting, "Ukraine has been defending itself against a merciless Russian war of aggression for almost three years, day after day."

Olaf Scholz adding, "it is simply wrong and dangerous to deny President Zelenskyy democratic legitimacy."

The British Prime Minister echoing those remarks, calling Mr. Zelenskyy Ukraine's democratically elected leader. A spokesperson said, Keir Starmer supports U.S. led efforts to get a lasting peace in Ukraine that will deter Russia from future aggression.

This all comes as Zelenskyy is set to meet with Donald Trump's envoy for Russia and Ukraine, Keith Kellogg.

CNN's Salma Abdelaziz is covering all of this live from London. She joins us now. Good morning to you, Salma. So General Kellogg is set to meet with Ukraine's President Zelenskyy today amid an escalating war of words between Zelenskyy and President Trump. What's on the agenda for their meeting and what's expected to come out of these discussions?

SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I really don't envy General Kellogg's position this morning, having to sit down with President Zelenskyy after these barbs were traded over the last 48 hours between President Trump and President Zelenskyy.

The White House saying that because of the way that President Zelenskyy had spoken in the media about President Trump and about what he felt was a lack of invitation, a lack of involvement.

[03:20:07]

You'll remember, of course, there was talks earlier this week in Saudi Arabia that Ukraine was not invited to, that President Trump felt the need to respond. That's where you heard those comments accusing him of being a dictator, accusing him of having low approval ratings, repeating several falsehoods.

But for General Kellogg, this is going to be about diplomacy. He is there to try to figure out if he can work this dual track idea. So President Trump's administration says that, yes, they're speaking to Russia.

That's what took place in Saudi Arabia a few days ago. But alongside those negotiations, there will be another track, and that is General Kellogg speaking to Ukraine, finding out what their demands, what their needs are to try to bridge the divide.

But there's a few caveats here, of course, Rosemary. The first among them is General Kellogg himself, somebody who has been seen as being sidelined.

He is seen as someone who is not liked by Russia. He may not ultimately be part of the negotiating team. He wasn't even invited to those talks in Riyadh himself. So there's a huge question mark over what level of authority he will have, what continuity he will have in this job.

And then, of course, with President Zelenskyy feeling this very personal spat with President Trump, he absolutely cannot imagine that he has the White House on side in his fight against Russia.

CHURCH: And, Salma, President Zelenskyy has come under increasing pressure to make a deal with the U.S. on the country's rare earth minerals, first President Trump, then Treasury Secretary Besent, and now General Kellogg. Zelenskyy has rejected any deal so far. What more are you learning about the status of any deal on these minerals?

ABDELAZIZ: Yes, this is an interesting twist because for President Trump, this is not just an ideological battle. There is money here to be had. And what he's been saying over and over again is that he wants to see Ukraine pay up billions of dollars' worth of aid, of military spending has been sent to Ukraine.

And President Trump wants his returns. Take a listen to how he put it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Here's the thing. We don't get our money back. And we told them that the deal is we'll do something for the rare earth and some oil, etc., and that'll be all right. And they agreed to it, more or less.

And then Scott Besent actually went there. He went there to get a document signed. And when he got there, he came back empty. They wouldn't sign the document.

But for Europe, they pay back their money. It's a loan. Think of that.

And we should have a loan, too. You know, we'll see what happens.

But I'm going to resurrect it or things are not going to make him too happy. And, look, it's time for elections.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ABDELAZIZ: So, some, of course, have criticized this move by President Donald Trump, the attempt to acquire 50 percent of Ukraine's rare earth minerals, while it's literally on its knees in its fight against Russia, unable to essentially fight back.

And that's what President Zelenskyy has said in response. He's essentially said this isn't my country to give away. There is much more complicated processes.

There's a constitution in place in Ukraine. I can't just sign this stuff over. But, as you know, President Trump isn't going to simply back down with these arguments.

You can imagine that that's still very much something that's on the table.

And the message from President Trump is clear here. He doesn't only want this war to end. He also wants the financial compensation, the backing, the money returned for that fight.

CHURCH: Salma Abdelaziz, joining us live from London with that report. I appreciate it.

Well, some encouraging news from the Vatican about the health of Pope Francis as he remains in the hospital with pneumonia. We'll have a live report in just a moment.

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[03:25:00]

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CHURCH: The Vatican says Pope Francis is showing slight improvement just days after he was diagnosed with pneumonia in both lungs. A short time ago, the Vatican said the 88-year-old pontiff had spent another peaceful night in the hospital in Rome, where he was admitted last week. The Pope is said to be making decisions and signing off on paperwork

while there, and on Wednesday, he met with Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni.

CNN's Barbie Latza Nadeau is in Rome. She joins us now. She's been closely following the story.

So Barbie, what is the latest on the Pope's condition and, of course, his progress?

BARBIE LATZA NADEAU, CNN REPORTER: Yes, you know, I mean, we have good news, I guess, relatively good news, considering the circumstances this morning from the Vatican on their Telegram channel. And they said that the Pope spent a serene night, got up this morning and ate breakfast while sitting in his armchair.

Now, this diverges a little bit from yesterday when we heard that he actually got out of bed and sat in the armchair. So we're looking kind of at reading tea leaves a little bit. But his progress seems to be at least incrementally better.

Now, this is two days after he was diagnosed with pneumonia in both lungs. One of those lungs, of course, compromised. Part of it was removed when he was a 19-year-old young man due to an infection then.

So when you look at all of this kind of -- in the big picture, you've got an 88-year-old man with mobility problems and bilateral pneumonia. And the fact that he's eating his breakfast in an armchair is about as good of news as we can imagine.

Now, he spent about 20 minutes yesterday with the Italian prime minister, Giorgia Meloni. Now, they have been together on several occasions.

They are like-minded on a lot of issues, including, you know, against surrogacy and things like that, that the church and certainly her government both agree upon. And so they spent about 20 minutes together. She said that he was reactive and that he still had a sense of humor.

[03:30:00]

But we haven't got any sort of official readout of what they may have talked about or if they prayed together or exactly what that was about. You know, we're not expecting to be a steady stream of visitors in and out, of course, because he needs to rest. And his doctors and the Vatican have said that that is the priority, to keep him, you know, as still as possible.

You know, he may be making decisions and answering correspondence, but by no means is he going to be out necessarily looking out the window and greeting the crowds that are gathering or anything like that, Rosemary.

ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN ANCHOR: And Barbie, with this more positive news, what's the scene back at the Vatican as the Pope recovers in the hospital?

LATZA NADEAU: You know, this is a really important time for the Vatican right now, because this is the Holy Jubilee year. This is one of the most important years in any kind of pontificate.

And you've got Lent starting next week with Ash Wednesday, and you've got lots and lots of pilgrims, religious Catholic pilgrims coming to Rome to walk through the Holy Doors to take part in Lent during the Jubilee.

And so we're not really hearing from the normal kind of tourists you would have in Rome, but these very faithful Catholics who are really concerned about him and really praying for him.

You know, we've had some comments from some of those people who are in St. Peter's Square, and even here outside of the hospital, there's a statue to John Paul II. Underneath that statue are candles and notes of well wishes and things like that.

Everybody hoping that the Pope recovers, but you've got kind of a special sort of tourist or pilgrim here this year, especially as we get into the Lenten season.

And their prayers for this Pope are being heard, certainly by the Pope. He's thanked them for all their good wishes through his Vatican spokesperson. So it's a really important couple of weeks coming up here with Lent and then eventually Easter, the end of April.

So this is an important time and everyone's certainly hoping the Pope will rally and be able to, you know, at some point, hopefully address the crowds again. Rosemary.

CHURCH: Absolutely. It is encouraging to hear more positive news, isn't it? Barbie Latza Nadeau, many thanks for your live report.

And we'll be right back.

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CHURCH: Welcome back to "CNN Newsroom." I'm Rosemary Church. I want to check today's top stories for you.

Right now, the Red Cross is taking the bodies of four deceased hostages to the Gaza-Israel border. The bodies of Shiri Bibas and her two sons, as well as Oded Lifshitz, were handed over by Hamas just a short time ago.

Once in Israel, the IDF will take the bodies to the Abu Kabir Forensic Institute for identification. Another exchange of living hostages is set for this weekend.

The Vatican says Pope Francis is showing slight improvement just days after he was diagnosed with pneumonia in both lungs. The 88-year-old pontiff is said to have spent another peaceful night in the hospital in Rome where he was admitted last week.

The U.S. President appears to be turning away from Ukraine and toward Russia after unleashing a series of taunts and falsehoods about the Ukrainian president. Volodymyr Zelenskyy accused Donald Trump of repeating Russian disinformation.

The Ukrainian city of Odessa is taking a pounding from Russian drones for a second day in a row. Officials say the city was struck by a massive drone attack overnight, which caused fires and damaged several buildings. One person was injured.

It came on the heels of a separate attack that targeted the city's energy infrastructure. Close to 90,000 people in Odessa are now without power as the temperature dips below zero. The strikes happened as a U.S. envoy is expected to meet Mr. Zelenskyy in Kyiv in the coming hours amid President Donald Trump's push for a peace deal.

Cedric Leighton is a CNN military analyst and a retired Air Force colonel. He joins us now. Good to have you with us, sir.

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), U.S. AIR FORCE AND CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Thanks for having me, Rosemary.

CHURCH: So as part of the fallout from U.S.-Russia negotiations in Riyadh, we are seeing an escalation in tensions between President Trump and Ukraine's President Zelenskyy. Trump now calling Zelenskyy a dictator without elections after Zelenskyy said Trump is living in a disinformation space when Trump falsely accused Ukraine of starting the war with Russia.

What's your reaction to this radical shift in U.S. foreign policy, the leader of the free world now aligning himself with Russia and apparently turning his back on U.S. allies, altering the world order?

LEIGHTON: Yes, let's hope it doesn't come to that very precise scenario. But it does look certainly like President Trump is abandoning Ukraine and moving into Putin's orbit, basically. And that is absolutely the wrong move for the United States from a strategic perspective.

And frankly, from a personal perspective, what this does is it upends the entire world order that has been established basically since the end of the Second World War in order that has taken the sacrifices of millions of American and allied service members to not only create but to preserve.

[03:39:58]

And that is something that I think, you know, the president may be ignorant of, but it is certainly making things very difficult for our allies, for the people of the countries that we've considered to be our allies. And it's making it exceptionally difficult for Ukraine.

And that is absolutely the wrong thing to do at this juncture. So it's a very regrettable result. And it's something that, I hope, that can be reversed in short order.

CHURCH: And Colonel, Russia has made a number of demands ahead of a peace deal being made, including one that would have Ukraine become a demilitarized neutral state, not a part of any blocs or alliances. Given this and, of course, other Russian demands, what might a final peace agreement look like, considering Trump appears to be favoring Russia on this?

LEIGHTON: So that would be what we used to call Finlandization, a Cold War term that referred to the neutral status that Finland had at the time. Now, of course, Finland is currently a NATO member and a new NATO member, along with Sweden.

And that is reflective of things that the previous administration was trying to do to do exactly the opposite, basically create a NATO state or NATO alliance that not only was expansive, but also could respond effectively to any Russian aggression.

And the way in which the Russians are pursuing this would indicate that they not only want a neutral Ukraine, but that they would take a much more aggressive approach to Ukraine after these peace negotiations are concluded.

And that might mean that Ukraine could fall victim to an outright takeover attempt by the Russians, basically a continuation of the invasion from February of 2022. And that would be something that would not only be bad for Ukraine, but would be bad for NATO and ultimately bad for the United States as well.

CHURCH: And, Colonel, meantime, the war in Ukraine rages on with the Russian drones hitting the Kursk region. What is your assessment of where things stand on the battlefield right now?

LEIGHTON: Well, we're continuing to see a war of attrition. There are some movements, there's some indication that around the town of Pokrovsk that Ukraine has actually made some progress in trying to, if not turn back, at least stall any Russian advances in that area.

It's taken the Russians a long time to get to Pokrovsk and to take it over. They have been successful there, although the lead up to this particular point in time was a cause for concern in that particular area.

But in essence, we have a stalled out situation where both sides have maintained most of the territories that they've controlled. And it very much looks as if it's going to be difficult for either side to dislodge the other.

Now, the Russians have an advantage in population and in manpower and in numbers of weapons. The Ukrainians have an advantage in terms of at least somewhat of an advantage in terms of battlefield tactics and in terms of their will to fight. So that, of course, makes for a very interesting dynamic.

But it is definitely a meat grinder in most parts of the front line, especially in the east and in the Kursk region, the Ukrainian occupied area of Russia. So that, in essence, means that things are basically where they were a few months ago. And that is something that becomes very difficult for Ukraine to sustain over the long term.

CHURCH: And if a peace deal is achieved and Europe commits troops to Ukraine to maintain that peace, what protections and guarantees need to be put in place to ensure those troops are safe and not fired upon by Russia?

LEIGHTON: Yes, it could very well be a situation similar to what we see on the Korean Peninsula after the armistice was reached in 1953. That is basically a continuation of the war by other means. And that's something that would present certain difficulties for any troops that would be put in a peacekeeping or ceasefire observing type role.

So however that ends up looking, it's going to be something that there would be no guarantees that the Russians wouldn't fire upon them. It could be a situation where you would see certain incidents happening.

And those countries that provide those peacekeeping forces would have to be prepared for that and would have to have contingency plans in place to respond to the kinds of actions that the Russians could take in a situation like this.

Basically, what we have to look at this as is the possibility that Russia will see this as a pause and will continue the types of moves that it has really exercised not only since 2022, but as far back as 2014.

[03:45:01]

When it comes to Ukraine, they want to take the country and they think that they can have it as part of a greater and expanded Russia. And that is something that is not in the interests of NATO or not in the interests of the United States, although it looks as if the United States is letting them go in that direction.

CHURCH: Colonel Cedric Leighton, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your analysis with us. I appreciate it.

LEIGHTON: You bet, Rosemary, anytime.

CHURCH: Still to come, Germany prepares for snap elections. Candidates for chancellor took part in the final debate before voters head to the polls on Sunday. Those details after a quick break.

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[03:50:02]

CHURCH: Welcome back, everyone.

Well, the candidates hoping to be Germany's next chancellor held their final debate ahead of Sunday's snap election. Incumbent Olaf Scholz from the Social Democrats and his conservative rival, Friedrich Merz, found some areas of agreement this time after previous heated debates. They agreed reforms are needed for the country's social subsidy

program. However, they still seem to disagree on exactly how to implement those reforms.

Well, meanwhile, one far-right party in Germany, the AfD, has been gaining some international support, notably from Elon Musk, the world's richest man. The party is also growing more popular among some young people in eastern Germany. More on that from CNN's Sebastian Shukla.

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SEBASTIAN SHUKLA, CNN PRODUCER (voice-over): Suhl is a sleepy town in former East Germany, but over the last few years, it has seen a major political awakening with the far right, the alternative for Germany, the AfD.

SHUKLA: This region, Thuringia, is AfD heartland. In fact, it became the first regional state to elect a far right party since the Nazi era. So we've come to hear from the most controversial figure in the region, Bjorn Hocke, and who might be listening to him.

SHUKLA (voice-over): The AfD in Thuringia is designated an extremist organization by German intelligence authorities. Hocke, as its head, has previously been convicted for the use of banned Nazi slogans.

Nevertheless, he's feated in these parts, in particular among young people. A question I put to him.

SHUKLA: There is rising popularity among young voters for the AfD. Are you a good role model?

BJORN HOCKE, AFD FACTION LEADER, THURINGIA, GERMANY (through translator): I hope that my performance is lively and that the youth can also identify with me. And if they can do that and see a bit of a pop star in me, then that's fine, because the youth also need idols like that.

SHUKLA (voice-over): Support from the youth for the AfD is growing quickly. In European elections last summer, votes from 16 to 34 year olds increased 18 percent from 2019. Young people we spoke to at the rally didn't hide their backgrounds either.

Dante Riedel, a 26 year old student, told me he's also designated an extremist and had clear ideological views.

DANTE RIEDEL, STUDENT AND AFD SUPPORTER (through translator): Prussian virtues, things like diligence, discipline, etc. These are the things that are important, including the cardinal virtues from antiquity.

SHUKLA (voice-over): Eric Engelhardt spent his evening photographing Hocke and as the regional head of the Young Alternatives, the AfD's youth wing. He's another party and Hocke disciple.

We met up with Eric and his friend Max the next day in picturesque Sonneburg. I asked Eric about Hocke's pop star comments. ERIC ENGELHARDT, YOUNG ALTERNATIVE'S LEADER, THURINGIA, GERMANY

(through translator): I see him as a politician who can achieve a lot for his country. He stands for something. He stands for his cause.

SHUKLA (voice-over): The Young Alternatives are also designated extremists by the domestic intelligence services, something that Eric says is a political conspiracy.

ENGELHARDT (through translator): Our secret service is controlled by politicians. It is an authority that is bound by instructions and ultimately it does what is said from above. We ourselves are not extremists. There are no extremists in the Young Alternatives.

SHUKLA (voice-over): The association was recently forced to disband effective 31st of March, but the mission isn't changing.

ENGELHARDT (through translator): Migration is the mother of all crisis. We have a lot of illegal immigrants in this country who are also on welfare, who are not behaving in this country.

SHUKLA (voice-over): Many young people are on the side of the AfD and naturally want change. Eric says the youth won't be deterred.

They will be back, more formally aligned with the AfD and under a different name. But with the same vision for Germany's future.

Sebastian Shukla, CNN, Thuringia, Germany.

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CHURCH: And we'll have a two-hour special on the German election on Sunday at 12 p.m. Eastern, that is 5 p.m. in London and 6 p.m. in Germany, right here on CNN.

We'll be right back.

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[03:55:00]

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CHURCH: Welcome back, everyone.

A new study reveals that the world is losing freshwater and sea levels are rising quickly due to rapidly melting glaciers. Data from more than 35 research teams show the world's glaciers have lost approximately five percent on average of their total volume over the past two decades.

However, the amount of ice being lost jumped by 36 percent in the second half of the study period compared to the first half. The study was published Wednesday in the journal Nature.

Well, for the first time in more than 100 years, archaeologists in Egypt have uncovered the tomb of a pharaoh. A joint mission made up of Egyptian and British scientists revealed the tomb of King Thutmose II near Luxor. It's the first royal tomb discovered since King Tutankhamun in 1922.

Officials say the tomb was not very well preserved due to flooding soon after the pharaoh's death. But there are signs that most of the tomb's contents had been relocated nearby and archaeologists are working to recover them.

I want to thank you so much for your company. I'm Rosemary Church. Have yourselves a wonderful day. "CNN Newsroom" continues next with Max Foster in London.

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