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Hegseth Orders Deep Pentagon Budget Cut Proposals; IRS Expected to Fire 6,000 Workers; Prosecutor in D.C. Threatens to Investigate Anyone Who Threatens Trump. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired February 20, 2025 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: The Pentagon is bracing for its biggest budget cuts in more than a decade. In a memo obtained by CNN, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth says he wants the department to be ready for a quote, "wartime tempo," ordering leaders to trim the estimated $850 billion budget by 8 percent each year for the next five years. And he wants their proposals by Monday, less than a week after issuing the demand.

I want to bring in Colonel Cedric Leighton about this. We're also getting some news in, Colonel, just in from our national security team that says U.S. intel believes Putin is not seriously prepared to engage in peace talks. This is despite Donald Trump claiming that Putin wants to stop and does not want control over the entirety of Ukraine. But our reporting is that Putin does not want to engage in peace talks with Ukraine, that he -- that do not favor his maximalist aims in the country. That's pretty significant.

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: It's really significant and it confirms a lot of our suspicions, Pamela, that we've had because Putin has started the Ukraine war -- at least the invasion part of it with very maximalist aims. He wanted to decapitate the Ukrainian regime. He wanted the Russians to take Kyiv within three days. And when he was thwarted in that ambition, in that plan, it really set him back considerably. He thought he had a military that could take the Ukrainian military and, in essence, destroy it. That is obviously proven to be not the case.

And now, with three years on, we have a situation where what Putin is trying to do is he's trying to achieve these ends, these maximalist aims of, in essence, taking over Ukraine and then using Ukraine potentially as a jumping off point for even further action, potentially against a NATO country like Poland, like the Baltic States, even Romania. Those are the kinds of things that could potentially happen if he gets that foothold in there.

So, this reporting from the Intelligence Community that says that Putin is not really serious about these negotiations I think that's very accurate because this would be in line with the Russian playbook that we've seen before where you have a situation where they're going to move forward when they're stopped. They'll try another way to go forward, and if they can get their aims, in this case, what they're trying to do is use the diplomatic approach to achieve aims that they were not able to achieve through force of arms, and that is really significant.

BROWN: It's significant too, because President Trump has been adopting some of Russia's talking points. And we should remind our viewers, Russia wants to weaken the U.S., right? I mean, that's one of its goals. That's Vladimir Putin's goal.

LEIGHTON: Both Vladimir Putin and Foreign Minister Lavrov have said it in basically those words. And former president -- Russian President Medvedev has also said similar things. So, what the Russians were doing is they're basically already engaged in a war against us. We just don't recognize that fact.

And what the Russians did, they announced, you know, Putin himself at the 2007 Munich Security Conference, he announced that he was breaking his previous policy with the West, which was more a policy of engagement. He announced that he was going a separate way. And what we're seeing now is a manifestation of this.

He's moving forward, not only in Ukraine, but he also hopes diplomatically to isolate the United States. He's continuing with cyber-attacks. The Chinese are also conducting major cyber-attacks against the U.S., against our infrastructure, and they're moving forward in that way. So, these are ways in which he can conduct this kind of conflict, these kinds of operations.

BROWN: So, you lay out the threats to the U.S. at a time when there's all these cuts coming at DOD. What do we make of that?

LEIGHTON: So, this is a very dangerous game that the administration is playing. Now, everybody wants to look at for more efficiencies. I think -- you know, I think everybody with a brain looks at this and says it's absolutely important to cut out waste, to cut out fraud in any abuse of funds, but you've got to do it the right way.

And if you have more threats, if the threats are multiplying against you, the last thing you want to do is get rid of the workforce that has the expertise to help us with threats like this. You also want to make sure that you have a way in which you can plan for any kind of eventuality for the so-called Black Swan events, you know those things that are unlikely, but when they happen, there are disasters like 9/11. Those are the kinds of things that we have to be prepared for it. And our Pentagon has to be prepared for those.

And if we're not prepared for those, if we cut in the wrong place or cut too much, even if it's an across the board cut, that could have significant impacts on force readiness and on our ability to actually respond to the threats that are out there. And the threats are out there and there are many of them, everything from unconventional warfare to cyber to conventional warfare like we see in Ukraine, those are the kinds of things that we could be facing. And it's a really, in essence, a multifront war is a possibility here.

[10:35:00]

BROWN: All right. Colonel Cedric Leighton, thank you as always. We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Today, the IRS is becoming the latest target of the widespread federal job cuts. A source tells CNN, the tax agency could fire nearly 6,000 workers. CNN's Rene Marsh joins us now. So, Rene, these cuts are coming right in the middle of tax season. Could this delay getting tax returns?

RENE MARSH, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's certainly creating some anxiety and uncertainty. It really remains unclear. We know that most of these people will be auditors, people who are support workers with compliance work, but the full impact on it happening in the midst of the filing season remains to be seen.

[10:40:00]

We know the Biden administration work to increase this workforce simply to make sure that the customer service component of the IRS was improved and this may have an impact, but we shall see.

BROWN: Let's talk about the overall impact of what DOGE is doing. DOGE -- Musk, for his part, who President Trump says is overseeing DOGE, despite what the White House claimed in this court filing, he's claiming that DOGE has saved taxpayers $55 billion. President Trump says he likes the idea of sending that money back to Americans in the form of a so-called DOGE dividend. What more can you tell us about that?

MARSH: Yes. So, what this would potentially be is a check sent to every taxpayer with 20 percent of the savings that DOGE is able to save the federal government. Now, this started when a user on Musk's social media website -- platform, X, floated this idea and Musk replied to this user saying he would check with the president. And then, the next thing you know, the president was floating this idea at his event in Miami yesterday.

But this sort of stimulus spending and checks for Americans does raise concerns about the impact that it could have on overheating the economy, potentially pushing up inflation. Of course, this wouldn't be the first time that the federal government is sending relief checks to Americans. We saw that during the pandemic.

But then there are these questions about DOGE and how much money are they really saving the federal government. They are saying that they've saved some $55 billion, but CNN's investigative unit went through the federal database with these contracts, and they found some discrepancies, actually some inaccuracies.

DOGE saying that they saved in one case, an ICE contract, they've said it saved the government $8 billion, actually was $8 million. And that $8 million price tag was only the ceiling for how much the government could spend up to. In reality, the government had only spent some $2.5 million on that specific contract. So, the math just isn't adding up.

BROWN: Mixing billions and millions. MARSH: But they haven't changed the total amount on their website. There's still sticking with that 55 billion number. So, the math, is it --

BROWN: Yes. They're sticking with it no matter the fact.

MARSH: Yes. It doesn't add up.

BROWN: It's all about the PR. All right. Thanks, Rene. Appreciate it. Well, over the last month, thousands of government employees have been fired by Trump and Elon Musk. I want to speak now with one of those affected workers and the potential impact of all of this on Americans. Travis Pettit worked at the National Fire Academy until he was laid off this week. Travis, thank you so much for being here.

So, you were dispatched in the aftermath of Hurricane Helene to help with the cleanup efforts. What does the loss of federal firefighters like you mean for our country's ability to respond to future disasters?

TRAVIS PETTIT, FEDERAL WORKER FIRED BY DOGE: Well, I will clarify. I'm not actually a firefighter. I'm an instructional specialist at the National Fire Academy. So, my role is working with national experts and training specialists to make sure that our firefighters and first responders have the emergency training they need when they respond to incidents like this.

But as a FEMA employee we always wear two hats. We have our full-time steady state role and then we have our emergency response role. So, in this instance because of the impacts of Hurricane Helene, I was called up. I was deployed to Savannah, Georgia for 30 days and worked with our individual assistance branch to provide one on one assistance to survivors to put a face to FEMA, to be someone they could talk to for questions about their claims, needing assistance with filing their claims, that sort of thing.

BROWN: So, what do you think the impact will be moving forward when there is a natural disaster, which is pretty inevitable?

PETTIT: Well, the obvious initial impact is going to be there are fewer people available at FEMA to be called up for these disasters. That will have a direct impact on how quickly they're able to respond, how broadly they're able to respond. But in terms of my individual organization, it's really going to strain their resources in terms of being able to offer cutting-edge courses for first responders.

Before I left we were working on a number of updates to programs, dealing with everything from how to deal with lithium ion battery fires to dealing with electric vehicles, all of these new technologies that are coming out that firefighters and first responders need to know how to deal with we're the institution they come to get that training, and I'm really afraid that we're not going to be able to offer them what they need to keep Americans safe.

BROWN: Yes. I mean, and to be clear -- and thank you for your clarification. With the L.A wildfires, because, of course, that is in recent memory, right? What would your academy have --

PETTIT: Yes.

[10:45:00]

BROWN: -- what role did it play with that and responding to that? And of course, the aftermath and all the cleanup that's happening right now?

PETTIT: Well, we are incorporating content into our courses about dealing with the wildland urban interface. That's a drum we've been beating for a number of years. And because of incidents like the L.A. wildfires, it's now getting national attention. But when you take people and resources away from the academy, again, that's going to stymie their ability to incorporate that content into the courses to make sure that the firefighters are properly trained to respond to those types of incidents. And to make sure that our communities are ready and prepared before these incidents even happen so that we can save lives, we can save property, and that we can get responders back home safely after these incidents.

BROWN: What do you say to the Americans who are out there? There are many Americans who are applauding this effort, who are applauding the firing of government employees like you. They think this is a good thing. They think that it's getting rid of bureaucratic bloat in the government. What do you say to them?

PETTIT: Well, I say there is a legitimate conversation to be had about cuts and reducing waste and fraud. I am not against that in any way, but I think there are legal and legitimate ways to go about it. And these blanket terminations that are happening that are sending letters out to federal employees, making false statements about their performance being the reason they're being let go, I don't understand why you need to be telling lies about federal employees to carry out this administration's plans. If you have a legitimate mandate, you should be able to pursue it in legitimate means.

BROWN: Well, what about on the performance issue? Because so many people got that same letter that saying, because of your performance, this is why we're letting you go. What was your performance review like?

PETTIT: Well, I actually just received my 2024 performance review in January. It was signed by both my direct supervisor and my second line supervisor, and I received the highest possible rating. So, I don't know where the FEMA acting administrator is getting their information or their assessment that my performance is somehow unsatisfactory. But I know from reading Reddit threaded boards and seeing things online that thousands of federal employees are receiving very similar form letters, and it's very troubling.

BROWN: Yes, we've been covering it here on CNN as well. Travis Pettit, thank you and best of luck to you as you try to figure out your next steps.

PETTIT: Thank you. BROWN: We'll be right back.

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[10:50:00]

BROWN: A top federal prosecutor in D.C. is vowing to investigate anyone who threatens President Trump or his political allies. This is according to an internal e-mail obtained by CNN. A Trump appointed interim U.S. attorney writing in an office wide e-mail, quote, "We are the guardians of federal workers. You and I must do whatever possible to assure government work is safe for all involved. We must protect our cops, our prosecutors, our DOGE workers, the president, and all other government employees from threats against our nation."

CNN senior legal analyst and former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York Elie Honig joins us now. I know you have some strong thoughts on this.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST AND FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: Could do.

BROWN: Who is Ed Martin? What's he trying to do here?

HONIG: It's a great question. So, first of all, I don't have any problem with that sentiment we just read. I mean, prosecutors are there to protect federal employees. The problem is the way that Ed Martin has tried to apply that principle shows that he doesn't have a clue what he's doing. And by the way, if you look at his resume, he's never been a prosecutor for a day in his life. Now, that he's about to become the permanent head of the D.C. U.S. attorney's office, he has enormous power and he has no idea how to use it.

So, let me give you an example. One of the things that Ed Martin has said is we're going to investigate Chuck Schumer for potentially threatening the president. That is a ridiculous --

BROWN: From 2020, right?

HONIG: Right, from when Chuck Schumer said that you've reaped the whirlwind and, you know, you'll reap what you sow or whatever it was. Here's why that is not even close to a crime. First of all, federal law makes it a crime to threaten the president only if you threaten to injure, kidnap, or kill the president or other federal officials. There's nothing like that.

Second of all, people have very broad First Amendment rights when it comes to political speech. And you know who has been the number one beneficiary of that over the years? Donald John Trump. I mean, think about some of the outrageous, aggressive, infuriating things he said. And you know what? He's been protected, rightly, by the First Amendment. So, what Ed Martin is talking about shows he just doesn't know what he's doing as a prosecutor.

BROWN: And I think it's an important distinction. Like you said, no one wants threats against government officials, that should be prosecuted, serious threats. How do you define that threat? And he's made it clear how he's defining that.

HONIG: He seems to define -- yes, he seems to be defining threat as things I find offensive, but that's nowhere near what the law requires. I should add also, Chuck Schumer has the benefit of this obscure provision in the Constitution called the --

BROWN: Speech and Debate Clause.

HONIG: See, you went to law school.

BROWN: I did.

HONIG: It's a good thing you went to -- got your degree in law.

BROWN: But I knew that even before I went to law school, because it's pretty basic.

HONIG: Speech and Debate Clause basically says a member of Congress cannot be prosecuted or punished for things they say in the course of their job as a member of Congress.

BROWN: OK. So, I want to follow up, because I think that there's like an overarching theme here with some of the actions that are taking place, and then you can help us put into context. So, on Tuesday, Trump signed this executive order, basically increasing White House control of some federal agencies.

It directs these federal agencies to submit all proposed regulations to the White House for review. How much of an attempt at a power grab is this in your view?

HONIG: Well, it definitely is an attempt to maximize and perhaps expand presidential power. So, you're going to hear this phrase that people say sometimes, don't -- eyes do not glaze over out there in our viewership. It's called the unitary executive theory. It's long been a favorite theory of conservatives, of the right.

But even that theory holds that the president is all powerful within the executive branch. But what's happening now is we're starting to see that sort of creep over into Congress, into the courts.

[10:55:00]

And so, what Donald Trump is doing is pushing beyond the boundaries of anything we've seen before with respect to executive power.

BROWN: Elie Honig, as always, great to get your insights. And by the way, we have a guest coming up in the show who also received one of Ed Martin's letters. So, that should be an interesting conversation.

HONIG: All right.

BROWN: Coming up, we are minutes away from a crucial moment for Trump's pick for FBI director. His fate lies in the hands of senators. We're live on Capitol Hill with the latest, next.

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