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Palestinians Reject Trump's Middle East Plan; Coronavirus Outbreak; Impeachment Trial Enters Q&A Phase; Iraq Protests; E.U. Set to Formally Approve U.K.'s Exit. Aired 11a-12p ET
Aired January 29, 2020 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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BECKY ANDERSON, CNN HOST (voice-over): This hour we are covering three big stories for you with the U.S. president's vision for Middle East peace the
center point.
Meanwhile, senators preparing for the marathon 16phour question and answer part of President Trump's impeachment trial. They will submit handwritten
notes to be read to the floor by the U.S. Chief Justice presiding over the trial.
The big vote likely happens on Friday on whether to allow witnesses.
If that weren't busy enough for the U.S. president, this hour he signs the U.S.-Mexico-Canada trade agreement.
Reaction to Tuesday's big reveal for peace in the Middle East. Palestinians flat out rejecting the deal as his "deal of the century" as "the slap of
the century."
It took President Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, and a few of his close associates almost three years to come up with what is this, 180 pages or so
entitled "Peace to Prosperity." The White House describes this as a vision and a first step toward peace. It's written to be relatable and some have
noted it reads more like a detailed brochure than a cumbersome legal document.
What's in it?
That has Israel's prime minister applauding and nodding in approval and Palestinians, why are they so angry?
Mr. Trump calls it a realistic two-state solution but it caters to nearly every major Israeli demand leaving Palestinians, they say, with almost
nothing they have been pushing for. Still, the president insists the plan offers a lot to the Palestinians. Here's a look at some of what is in it.
A conditional state for Palestinians: Jerusalem would be the undivided capital for Israel with Palestinians getting a capital on the outskirts of
East Jerusalem and behind a physical barrier.
No Israelis or Palestinians will be uprooted from their homes but the plan allows for Israel's annexation of its West Bank settlements and parts of
the Jordan Valley.
Israel worked with the king of Jordan to ensure that the status quo, as it is known, governing the key holy sites in Jerusalem, remains.
How so does that play out in reality?
Well, the vision gives this -- well, it's a conceptual map. Let me start down here in Gaza for you. It stretches out the area into two blobs of land
along the south, along the Egyptian border here; one area apparently dedicated to high-tech manufacturing, the other to farming and to living.
There is a tunnel, you see that here, connecting it to the West Bank and that's here along this dotted line. Amid that, all these brown dots labeled
-- you can see them just here -- as enclave communities, broadly the new Palestinian state surrounded by Israel.
Jerusalem is just here and that will become Israel's capital proper. It seems the new Palestinian state's capital will be listed as Eastern
Jerusalem but nowhere that Palestinians would ever consider as actually being Jerusalem.
So a lot to take in. A lot to break down. And to do that, let's bring in the teams connecting you on this story from the Middle East to Washington.
Oren Liebermann is with us tonight in Jerusalem. Sam Kiley is in the West Bank city of Ramallah and Joe Johns is at the White House.
Where the great reveal happened, just some 24 hours ago, let me start with you, Joe.
Reaction, response where you are?
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: The reaction largely has been muted here in Washington. Up on Capitol Hill admittedly, both the
House and the Senate are involved in the impeachment trial of President Trump.
So what we've gotten is some platitudes from the Republican chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and the Democrats didn't even put out a
statement after the big reveal.
However, 24 hours before, they did put out a long and rather detailed academic statement, questioning whether it's a good idea for the United
States to be engaged in what might appear to be a unilateral attempt to impose will on Palestine and suggesting the proper course there, of course,
would be to continue with diplomacy -- Becky.
ANDERSON: Oren, let me bring you in here. I wonder what the perspective is there.
[11:05:00]
ANDERSON: And I know that it will not necessarily be a sort of linear one. I spoke with one of the Israeli architects of the Oslo accords right after
yesterday's announcement. Here is his take, before you and I get a sense of whether it's reflected where you are.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JARED KUSHNER, TRUMP SENIOR ADVISER: I'm not looking at the world as it existed in 1967. I'm looking at the world as it exists in 2020. You have 5
million Palestinians who are really trapped because of bad leadership. So what we've done is we've created an opportunity for their leadership to
either seize or not.
If they screw up this opportunity, which, again, they have a perfect track record of missing opportunities, if they screw this up, I think they will
have a very hard time looking the international community in the face, saying they're victims.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Well, that is clearly not the architect of the Oslo peace accords. I apologize. I'll get to that in a moment. But while I've got you,
that was Jared Kushner, the architect of this plan, speaking just after its release to our colleague, Christiane Amanpour.
Your perspective?
OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's worthwhile comparing what Yossi Beilin has to say and I'm familiar with his perspective, the sort of
traditional Oslo perspective versus Jared Kushner. It's not hard to see why Kushner was alienated very quickly and essentially cut off from Palestinian
leadership because that was his approach.
The Palestinians have missed opportunities, he says, in the past. "A perfect track record" of blowing opportunities, he says. And he threatens
them, they shouldn't do it again, in this case, or Trump said this might be their last opportunity. This plan as put together by Kushner discards
everything done to this point.
And what has been done to this point?
Peace proposals have been based on U.N. Security Council resolutions, 242 and 338, and it's been based on negotiations. This does away with all of
that. Does away with mutually agreed land swaps. Does away with dividing the city of Jerusalem in some way, instead giving that all to Israel as
Israel's united capital.
This essentially says Israel can take unilateral action on annexation. We'll talk about the timing a little bit. And instead, the Palestinians are
the ones who have to commit to negotiations and meet a series of requirements to get to the point where they might have a Palestinian state.
That is the Trump administration's approach and it's easy to see why Israel's right wing, why the settlement movement, why Benjamin Netanyahu
are so happy with what they see in the Trump administration's vision for Middle East peace.
What's interesting as we were going back, back in December of 2018 as Israel was in an election campaign for the April elections, the prime
minister said he would never bring forward a national plan on the eve of an election. Instead, that's exactly what happened. Listen to what Netanyahu
had to say then.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL (through translator): You cannot bring a national plan on Election Eve without being given a mandate.
You cannot bring a national plan on Election Eve and I still hold that opinion. I do not intend to bring a national plan on Election Eve.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIEBERMANN: Here we are 13 months later. Netanyahu has no mandate. He's failed to form a government twice. And yet 34 days before the election,
he's just accepted wholeheartedly and happily a national plan on the eve of an election.
It is this reason and for additional reasons as well, for example that Netanyahu was formally indicted in corruption cases yesterday that many
have criticized the White House for interfering in Israel's elections and trying to get Netanyahu over the line with the peace plan reveal coming
when it does.
ANDERSON: Let's get Yossi Beilin's take on all of this. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YOSSI BEILIN, ISRAELI OSLO ACCORD NEGOTIATOR: Now what's happening here is actually telling us you can take whatever you want. I mean, if we really
take whatever we want, there will be a one-state solution in which Jews will be a minority. This is the last thing that Zionism was about.
So to say that this is a plan which is a pro-religious, pro-Israeli right which is in many ways pro-Zionist. And to think that you can suggest
something like this without talking to the Palestinians, without listening to what they think, is really unbelievable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Oren?
LIEBERMANN: Well, his plan or his worry is this plan leads to Israeli annexing everything and that has the question of what it does with
Palestinians who live here who are not citizens of Israel.
[11:10:00]
LIEBERMANN: At some point Israel -- and this is where the question of apartheid has come to Israel -- Israel would have to give them citizenship,
let them vote and then the fear is, from Israel's perspective, from the perspective of those trying to keep Israel as a Jewish and democratic
country with a Jewish majority, the Palestinians would become the majority.
And that is, as he says, the end of a Jewish and democratic state. That's what he sees. That's the bigger picture problem the looking down the road
problem. The question of what to do with the Palestinians here.
And that notably in the four years that the Trump administration gives this plan to sort of move forward, that plan is absent at this point.
ANDERSON: Well, let's talk about the response from the Palestinians, at least officially, Sam. This described as the slap of the century rather
than the deal of the century.
What's the perspective where you are in the West Bank?
SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's been extraordinarily muted here on the West Bank. I've traveled from north of
Ramallah to villages right up against a settlement into the Biblical city of Jericho, talking to Palestinians almost to a man and woman.
They say first of all, they didn't expect anything other than very bad news from this so-called plan. They say that the annexation that is being talked
about, that is imminent of the Jordan Valley and of the Jewish settlements on the West Bank and some other land is absolutely inimical to their
rights.
And they're prepared to fight for them. I asked if there's likely to be violence, they say yes. But there's been no calls for violence. The only
leadership that's been heard has been heard yesterday.
Leadership of the Palestinians has been silent today, adding to the cloudy sense of apathy that's hanging over the Palestinians as they digest what
many of them accepted ultimately was the general drift of this process, which is to leave them with some rump territory that in no way could ever
be said to represent an independent state. That's clearly what's in the Trump plan.
But let's just take a little sample of this, because Jericho, which is in the Jordan Valley, an 80-long mile strip of land separating the West Bank
from Jordan, is a city of about 23,000 Palestinians who, when that territory is annexed, will be isolated in a Palestinian island there.
Nonetheless, they seem to be absolutely dedicated to the Palestinian dream. Here's a sample of what they said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Unfortunately, Trump's plan is worthless for us. It's void of its content. It doesn't have any rights for
Palestinians.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KILEY: Now it doesn't have any rights for Palestinians, nor would a future Palestinian state as constructed under the whole definition of the Trump
plan. It wouldn't have international borders. It wouldn't even have control over -- literally over its air waves, over the electromagnetic transmission
systems over its territory.
What it would be is a series of discontiguous, though joined bits of territory with a degree of self-governance. But clearly as Yossi Beilin
said, it's the end of the Oslo peace process.
The peace process, though moribund, has been their life and has in many ways stabilized this area on the West Bank in particular, not so much at
all in Gaza, where Hamas is committed to the destruction of the state of Israel.
Here on the West Bank, a lot of that has meant the Palestinians and Israelis have been intertwined in terms of security cooperation and
economics.
ANDERSON: Sam, how do the Palestinians hope to get a coordinated condemnation from around the region?
They didn't get it. The response from the Arab world, not unanimously negative. The UAE's ambassador to the U.S. says his country, quote,
"appreciates the effort," speaking of this Donald Trump plan and that the plan, quote, "offers an important starting point for a return to
negotiations within a U.S.-led international framework."
That echoed by Saudi Arabia, by Bahrain, Oman and Egypt. We haven't gotten an overarching response from the Arab League as of yet.
Are you surprised by that?
[11:15:00]
KILEY: I think it's an extraordinary moment in this whole evolution. One of the characteristics of this plan, it basically reflects the realities on
the ground and the ultimate truth of the Israeli position.
Perhaps what we're seeing from the Arab world is an abandonment of the lip service that they have paid to the Palestinian cause more often than they
have paid up in any kind of meaningful financial way with a possible exception of Qatar to the greater Palestinian good.
It's always been an issue to raise up support on the Arab streets, to wave the Palestinian flag but they've never really contributed very much to the
Palestinian cause. And now they're saying it looks like maybe this could lead to negotiations.
This is also -- and I've had discussions with people involved in talks with -- between some of these Gulf countries and the United States and in those
talks have been quite startling, the level of naivete and frankly, ignorance over what the Palestinian course is, what the principles behind
it have been, particularly in terms of the international law behind it.
ANDERSON: I have Sam Kiley on the West Bank, Oren Liebermann in Jerusalem and Joe, to you, thank you very much indeed in Washington.
Folks, you are watching CONNECT THE WORLD. The time is just after a quarter past six.
Still ahead, tonight, months of violent protests and hundreds of deaths in Iraq. Now the country's U.N. special representatives have some very strong
words about what must be done to stop scenes like this, the unrest. My talk with her is later this hour.
Plus some major cities in China look, quite frankly, like ghost towns as the threat of the Wuhan coronavirus grows each and every day. We've got an
update from the World Health Organization on the deadly coronavirus.
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ANDERSON: So far more than 6,000 people have been infected. Mostly in China and 132 people have died. Here's what Michael Ryan from the WHO has
just said about what we know at this point.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL RYAN, WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION: We're continuing to learn more about the virus. But in doing that learning, as I said, we know that the
intense epidemic is centered in Wuhan and Hubei.
We know that many people are experiencing a minor form but still 20 percent of reported cays are reported as severe and 2 percent of cases are reported
to have died.
The disease is obviously mainly a respiratory disease passing via droplets from one person to another and mostly still through close contact. The
source is still unclear and investigations continue in that regard.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: All right. That is the latest from the World Health Organization. Meantime, we are watching a plane that has just landed in the
United States, filled with U.S. citizens, ferrying some 201 passengers out of Wuhan, the epicenter of this virus. That is on strict lockdown since its
outbreak.
Several countries we now know are struggling to get their citizens out of Mainland China. Stephanie Elam is there outside that airbase in California
for us. David Culver is live in Beijing.
Steph, before we go to you, I want to start with David. That was the latest from the World Health Organization.
What are you hearing there on the ground?
DAVID CULVER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm just hearing from state media, in fact, and they are reporting that, according to top party officials, that
the prevention and control efforts are in full swing. This is what's just coming out and have, in fact, intensified.
However, they characterize this situation as severe and complex as they warn the virus is spreading. We know the World Health Organization has been
in Beijing; the head of the --
(AUDIO GAP)
ANDERSON: All right. Looks as if we've lost David just for the time being. We have a slight technical hitch.
Steph, let me bring you in at this point. These are U.S. citizens arriving on the ground on U.S. soil, who will, I'm sure, be extremely relieved that
they are where they are.
What do we know at this point?
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. From what we understand, when they did land overnight in Alaska, when they were -- when someone boarded the
plane and said welcome home to the United States of America, that all of the passengers cheered.
We know that this plane was ready to carry 240 people back to the States but we know that there were actually 201 people on the flight. They were
tested twice before they left China. They were monitored throughout the flight, making sure to keep the flight crew separate from them, on separate
air.
They were upstairs and the passengers were below. They monitored them during the flight. When they got to Alaska, they were tested two more
times. They were able to deplane into a terminal that is not used a lot in Anchorage.
And they ate a warm meal, charged their phones and got back on the plane and now they're here. From what we understand they're on the other side of
the airfield from where I'm standing. But there are people outside of the plane. They look like they're completely covered in hazmat suits, in the
white biosuits they're wearing right now to check these people.
And from what we understand now, is now that they've made it to southern California, they will be tested yet again and they're going to be monitored
for a bit of time. We know that the Centers for Disease Control has officials on the ground in California and they are going to be closely
monitoring these 201 people before they are allowed to travel back to wherever they really want to be in the United States of America, now that
they've made their way, the hardest part back into the country.
ANDERSON: Thank you, Steph.
David, let me get back to you. I believe I've got you back.
Construction workers are rushing to complete this hospital in Wuhan. This is from a live feed. This is a live feed on social media of that very
construction. The deadly coronavirus continues to spread. China's state run "People's Daily" says the 1,000 bed hospital will be ready by Monday.
You were updating us on what authorities are saying before we lost you.
CULVER: That's right.
[11:25:00]
CULVER: That's top party officials, according to state media have said that the prevention and control efforts, which the construction of this
hospital and another one in just a few days after that are part of that, part of this massive containment effort.
They characterize it as in full swing and they say it has intensified. But the concerning part is they still consider this situation to be severe and
complex in that the virus is still spreading.
What are they doing to move forward as an international community?
We know the head of the World Health Organization is in Beijing; over the past 24 hours or so has met with President Xi. President Xi has said that
he, personally, is taking control of the coordination and deployment efforts here. That is a huge step and he's putting himself in a very public
position to do so.
But it also explains how the central government is taking a very strong role in this, especially when you compare it with the local government and
the city of Wuhan in particular and Hubei province.
We now have President Xi himself saying the local government must carry out the orders and must follow through as swiftly as possible to make this
containment effort successful. Seemingly put a lot of pressure.
But it also goes back to the concern that the local government didn't do enough early on and perhaps, as some have suggested, underreported some of
the early numbers and now it's a mess that has to be cleaned up at the higher level.
And moving forward with that, with the construction of these two hospitals, one of these as you mentioned, 1,000 beds. Another is 1,600. Not only that,
you've got to look at how they're staffing this with the medical personnel.
Part of the concern is, speaking to health care workers, we've been in touch with several nurses and doctors on the ground in Wuhan and they have
explained to us that they, themselves, have been infected with the virus. Many of their colleagues have been infected.
One nurse telling us 30 of her colleagues, fellow doctors and nurses at that one hospital, are currently infected with the coronavirus. Some range
in severity of being in intensive care. Others are sent home to be medicated but they're not doing what they're slated to do, to treat
patients because they themselves are in need of treatment.
That means you have deployment teams that are on the ground. Some 6,000 are estimated to be on the ground that President Xi himself has said that he
has deployed and they're military and civilian personnel and nurses and doctors.
They're the ones backfilling but the problem is they also need the protection. We've heard about the shortage of resources, particularly with
the hazmat suits, the protective gear with the masks. Now they need to make sure that, as they put it, they go into battle to the front lines and they
have the armor.
ANDERSON: If we need an image as to just how this has spread, Steph, of course, is there on the ground in the U.S., is that planeload of U.S.
citizens from Wuhan, arrives out of Beijing.
To both of you, thank you.
The virus now overtaken SARS. The big question, of course, is should you be concerned even if you're outside of China?
Wherever you are living in the world?
The advice is you should be paying attention to updates and taking precautions, like not traveling, of course, to affected areas. What you
should not do is panic. Let me give you context to help you see why.
You'll remember the MERS virus, it was known as camel flu. It killed more than one in three people who contracted it. And SARS had a death rate of
one in 10.
So far this Wuhan strain is tracking at below or around a 3 percent mortality rate. Clearly any deaths are terribly sad. But that rate is
closer to the rate at which sort of what we would consider a normal flu kills people.
To stay up to date on anything else you're interested in or concerned about, do it at cnn.com. We've done the work for you, mining and
aggregating official information. It's all on the CNN digital site.
Three people in Boston, Massachusetts, including a Harvard University professor, have been charged with hiding their ties to the Chinese
government.
Professor Charles Leiber is accused of lying about working with several Chinese organizations while receiving money from the U.S. government to
fund his research. Two others are facing similar charges in Boston.
The U.S. attorney for Massachusetts says China is looking for nontraditional ways to steal American research and technology and that
Boston has become a frequent target because of its universities, hospitals and its tech companies.
[11:30:00]
ANDERSON: You're with CONNECT THE WORLD. I'm Becky Anderson. Coming up, it will soon be question and answer time on Capitol Hill as the impeachment
trial against the U.S. president enters its next phase.
But the big question still remaining, will senators and the rest of us watching hear from any witnesses?
That after this.
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ANDERSON: Well, in less than two hours from now, the impeachment trial of the U.S. president will enter the next and possibly most crucial phase,
questions and answers. All senators have been told not to utter a word under pain of imprisonment in this trial. They still have to remain silent
but now they actually do get to participate of sorts.
Lawmakers will submit written questions aimed at House managers -- those are the prosecutors, of course -- and Trump's defense team which will then
be read around by chief justice John Roberts. Here's a look at the card that senators will fill out. Questions will alternate between Democrats and
Republicans.
The Q&A phase expected to last some 16 hours over the next two days.
The big question outstanding, will witnesses be allowed to testify?
For more on that, let's bring in Lauren Fox, live for us up on Capitol Hill.
And, importantly, CNN learned that leader Mitch McConnell has actually admitted to Republicans that he doesn't yet have the votes to block this
witness testimony.
[11:35:00]
ANDERSON: Bottom line, he hasn't ensured that every Republican will stay in line and on message. And that could be very significant.
Can you explain why?
LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is a rare moment on Capitol Hill where we don't know how this witness vote on Friday is
going to turn out. Yes, majority leader Mitch McConnell told his conference yesterday that he doesn't have the votes to block witnesses yet.
But "yet" is a very important word here. Essentially there are a lot of members who have not made up their mind yet. When I say a lot, I mean about
probably a dozen members, who are not publicly saying how they're going to vote on witnesses at this moment.
Many of them will tell you, I want to hear what the answers to my questions are. Essentially, we have 16 hours ahead of us. We don't want to jump the
gun and essentially say we're for something or against something until the last possible moment.
Remember, a lot of lawmakers didn't expect that surprise, that new John Bolton reporting on Sunday night, saying his unpublished manuscript had
Bolton asking the president why the Ukrainian aid wasn't released and the president responded he didn't want it released until he got investigations
into his political rivals. That coming from "The Times."
But a lot of lawmakers didn't expect that moment. They want to be very careful about saying how they're going to vote on witnesses, whether they
want to hear from John Bolton until they're through the questioning and until the question is posed to them.
ANDERSON: Senate Republican Rand Paul talking to our colleague, Wolf Blitzer, last night -- and this was interesting. He questioned the motives
behind John Bolton's potential testimony. I just want our viewers to hear some of that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RAND PAUL (R), KENTUCKY: One of the things that the House managers emphasized was that their case was overwhelming and that they had
everything they needed to convict the president. So it would seem we either believe them or don't.
If we believe their case is overwhelming, they shouldn't need more witnesses. As far as bringing in Bolton, we have to ask, is he a
disinterested or neutral or dispassionate witness?
I would say he's a witness very interested in making a lot of money right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: We will know if John Bolton will be a witness, one assumes by the end of the week although so much of this is fluid.
I wonder, at this stage, Lauren, is it clear that these senators are actually canvassing their voters as to how they might vote?
Or is this so partisan that, at the end of the day, this will be just personal and these senators have to decide whether they stick with the
leader, Mitch McConnell or not?
FOX: Well, essentially it's one in the same. A lot of these lawmakers are from conservative states. And what they're hearing from their constituents
is, we're over it. Move on. I'd rather the Senate do something else.
A couple of senators from swing districts or swing states, like Thom Tillis, Martha McSally, Joni Ernst, made that message to their colleagues.
We're hearing, constituents are sick of this. They're ready to move on and they think this is a waste of their time.
McConnell's argument this whole time has been this is about preserving the Senate majority. His concern is Chuck Schumer is going to force many of his
members up for reelection to take tough votes on witnesses that could be part of a campaign ad.
And McConnell has told his lawmakers, the longer this drags out, the more susceptible we are to being politically attacked for any vote you took in
the impeachment trial. That may not be a reason for Susan Collins to not support witnesses. But it is certainly a reason for people like Joni Ernst,
Cory Gardner, Martha McSally and Thom Tillis.
ANDERSON: Lauren Fox on Capitol Hill.
We're going to take a short break. Back after this.
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[11:40:00]
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ANDERSON: Welcome back. You're watching CONNECT THE WORLD with Becky Anderson live from our Middle East broadcasting hub here.
Forgive the cliche but this region no stranger to conflict. Iraq knows this. In the ruins of a temporary protest camp, antigovernment
demonstrators rebuilding their site with bricks this time after their tents were destroyed.
At least one protester was killed and four others wounded on Monday when unknown gunmen set fire to a camp in Nasiriyah. Four months since these
protests started, more than 600 Iraqis killed, the country still in a state of chaos.
Earlier I spoke to the country's U.N. special representative, Jeanine Hennis, who has been working to help form a new government. She tweeted
about the recent unrest saying, and I quote, "Unaccountability and decisiveness are unworthy of Iraqi hopes," going on to say, "while death
and injury tolls continue to rise, steps taken so far will remain hollow, if not completed. The people must be served and protected, not violently
oppressed."
This is my interview with her.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANINE HENNIS-PLASSCHAERT, U.N. SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE: What we did see on the 1st of October, so in the past four months is that hundreds of
thousands of Iraqis took to the streets and forced their hopes for better times away from corruption, away from foreign interference and away from
partisanship.
They voiced their frustration over a lack of progress over the past 16 years, I should say. Now on the very first night of the demonstrations,
things spun out of control with the excessive use of force.
And we saw a shift in demands, from social and economic grievances to political and electoral reform, including thedisillusion of parliament and
government and here we are today. Many politicians responded to it; the prime minister resigned. Some steps have been taken but not completed.
And that's why I said none of these steps will, if not completed, they will all remain hollow. So the Iraqi authorities are still thinking on how to
deliver on the needs and the rightful demands of the Iraqi people.
ANDERSON: We've got images of you on the streets talking to protesters at the start of these demonstrations. Protesters who are now being targeted
and killed by what the government refers to as unlawful elements. Others suggesting these are rogue militia with political ties.
The U.N. in general and you personally have been criticized for not speaking out about these militia and taking a firmer stance.
What is your response and who are these militia?
HENNIS-PLASSCHAERT: Well, I think I've been very clear that the threats, the intimidation, the abductions, the killings, I mean, it's all
unacceptable and intolerable. And we have been expressing that several times. We've been calling on all authorities and I've been conveying a
clear message to the Security Council.
The thing is the investigation reports or investigations are ongoing on who is behind the intimidation, the abductions, the killings. Some information
is available but not all. I do think that most people in Iraq, including the U.N., and the authorities know who are behind the killings. The rogue
outlaw, armed groups.
But it's all about full justice and accountability.
[11:45:00]
HENNIS-PLASSCHAERT: And as long as the Iraqi authorities do not deliver on full justice and accountability, it will be very, very difficult to
convince the Iraqi people that Iraqi authorities are sincere in their willingness to step up to the plate.
ANDERSON: In a recent interview that you did with the national newspaper, you said and, I quote, "We tried several times to lay the foundation for a
road map to find a way out of the ongoing crisis. At the end of the day, it should be an Iraqi-owned and Iraqi-led process.
"It's not too difficult to think of what is needed to build resilience at the state and societal level. But it needs to be adopted and internalized
by the Iraqis."
You are also quoted saying you will share your plan with Iraqi politicians soonest.
What will this road map include?
With so many domestic and international players, how do you see a stable Iraq?
HENNIS-PLASSCHAERT: Well, I mean, it's very true that the regional and geopolitical tensions, that it drains lots of precious time and energy of
Iraqi authorities and leaders. However, it should not eclipse the domestic unfinished urgent business.
To do this in Iraq is extremely long, from electoral reform to fostering an environment that's conducive to growth and employment, disarmament and
demobilization of armed groups, anti-corruption efforts, public service. As I said, the to do list is very long.
At the end of the day, it's all about building a resilient state and a resilient Iraq at the state and society level. And they will have to start
somewhere. So it's not too difficult to think about what has to happen.
But as I said, at the end of the day, an Iraqi owned and Iraqi led process. So they will have to adopt any road map or resilience program, if you wish,
if they want to move forward from crisis containment, from fire to fire, to a more long-term, structural approach.
ANDERSON: You talk about building a resilient state.
But is this really realistic?
The killing earlier this month of the Iranian military commander, Qasem Soleimani, sparked a series of retaliatory attacks as well as violence and
more unrest on the streets in Iraq. You've expressed concern that Iraq will become a battlefield for a U.S.-Iran proxy war.
Is that still your concern?
HENNIS-PLASSCHAERT: Well, yes, it is. I mean, clearly the regional developments and geopolitical tensions are a clear negative for Iraq. So
Iraqi authorities, whether they like it or not, will have to continue their balancing act to prevent their country from becoming yet again a theater
for different competitions or a battleground for external competition.
So they -- and again, as I said, it will take a lot of their precious time and energy; while the time and energy is desperately needed to address the
urgent demands of the people at the same time, I would like to emphasize it cannot and should not eclipse the urgent unfinished domestic business. And
the president had a meeting the rightful demands of the people.
ANDERSON: In your opinion, is the United States' presence vital to maintain a sort of balance of power, if you will?
Would a U.S. military withdrawal allow for the echoes of 2014, again, with the emergence of ISIS or potentially clear the way for Iran's control over
Iraq?
HENNIS-PLASSCHAERT: Well, the thing is, now we again refer to the issue of foreign interference. If you want to become resilient against foreign
interference, criminal elements, partisanship, one has to build a resilient state at both the state level but also at the society level.
So for Iraq to become a sovereign state and not a compromised state, it will have to address the domestic business, yes, and obviously also
continue their balancing act between all those pursuing their own objectives.
ANDERSON: OK. Well, on the ground, then, let's talk about specifically what is going on. The powerful Shiite leader Muqtada al-Sadr withdrawing
his backing for anti-government protests, now calling for anti-U.S. protests instead.
The protest movement itself simply has no leader at this point. I'm talking about the people who are decrying their lack of dignity, corruption.
[11:50:00]
ANDERSON: A lack of resilient economy, lack of opportunity.
What's the risk here?
HENNIS-PLASSCHAERT: Well, the risk is that Iraq continues to run from one fire to the other fire, so it runs the risk of dealing with crisis
containment instead of with a more long-term approach.
I mean, the protests, even if the street would calm down tomorrow, they will flair sooner or later. As long as the socioeconomic grievances are not
addressed, people will go back to the streets and will continue to voice their frustrations over the lack of progress -- and understandably so.
ANDERSON: So far as your road map is concerned, do you feel that you have the support that is needed at Security Council level to genuinely provide
some sort of solution at this stage for the people of Iraq?
HENNIS-PLASSCHAERT: Well, for Iraq, it's important that -- I mean, as I said several times, to build resilience. It's not really a road map. It's
how you would like the country to look like in order to become resilient against foreign interference, criminal elements, partisanship, all of which
is actually hindering Iraq's stability. So this is what the road map is all about.
And this is what I will obviously share with the Iraqi authorities but also with the Security Council. I think it's important the international
community continues to support Iraq in the way forward. For that to happen, Iraq will also have to show good governance.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: Well, that was my interview with the U.N. special representative for Iraq.
Two day to go after years of debate and haggling, it feels like longer, the E.U. is set to approve the U.K.'s exit. We are live in Brussels for you up
next.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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ANDERSON: Right. The European Union is holding a special session in Brussels to formally approve what's known as Brexit withdrawal bill. That
will finally see the United Kingdom exit the European Union. That vote comes in the next hour. It comes after years of delays and votes and heated
debates.
The official Brexit day, if you will, is Friday. CNN's Nina dos Santos is following the developments.
After that historic vote, as I understand it tonight, lawmakers in Brussels will hold a party to bid farewell to their 73 departing colleagues. The
leader of the Brexit Party, Nigel Farage, said he'll miss being the pantomime villain of the E.U.
[11:55:00]
ANDERSON: We can safely say this is a man who will not be missed in the corridors of European power.
NINA DOS SANTOS, CNNMONEY EUROPE EDITOR: That's right. He got a unceremonious chucking out of the European Parliament alongside his other
Brexit MEP colleagues about 15 minutes ago from the speaker of the European Parliament because he had broken the rules.
Not only had he gone over talking in his speech before that vote but he'd taken out a British Union Jack flag and decided to wave it in a coordinated
gesture alongside his other Brexit MEP members of the Parliament. That's against the rules and they asked them all to leave.
That wasn't quite the warm goodbye many other British members of the European Parliament are getting. There's a sense here that there's sadness
but there's also a buzzing feeling that something new is just around the corner.
We've been speaking to some members of the European Parliament, who say it's goodbye and good riddance but also there are powerful figures who say
this could be a temporary goodbye and it could be more like see you soon.
Like Guy Verhofstadt who had been at the helm of the European Parliament's Brexit steering committee up until now and had a big say in the
negotiations. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GUY VERHOFSTADT, BREXIT COORDINATOR FOR EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT: So this vote is not an adieu. This vote, Mr. President, is in my opinion, only an au
revoir. Thank you very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: All right, well that is the story in Brussels.
(CROSSTALK)
ANDERSON: Apologies. We spoke out over each other. Thank you, Nina.
I'm Becky Anderson. That was CONNECT THE WORLD. Next we go to Washington for special coverage of the impeachment trial of Donald Trump. That's after
this quick break. Thanks for watching.
END
