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U.S. and Russia Carrying Out Massive Prisoner Swap; Historic Seven- Country Swap Exchanges 26 Prisoners, Including Two Children; Turkiye Confirms Evan Gershkovich and Paul Whelan Are Part of Exchange; Targeted Killings Raise Fears of Wider Middle East Conflict. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired August 01, 2024 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(CNN U.S. SIMULCAST)

[10:30:35]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BECKY ANDERSON, CNN HOST (voice-over): Welcome to CNN's special coverage. I'm Becky Anderson in London for you.

Breaking right now, a U.S. official tells CNN that Russia and the U.S. are carrying out a massive prisoner swap, in which a number of high-profile

Americans will be handed over. Amongst those expected to be released are "The Wall Street Journal" reporter, Evan Gershkovich, and the former U.S.

Marine, Paul Whelan.

Now this deal would end a nightmare that has lasted more than five years for Whelan while Gershkovich has been in custody for more than a year. Our

sources say the swap comes after months of complicated negotiations between Moscow, Washington and others.

Jennifer Hansler is with us from Washington.

What exactly do we know at this point?

What are your sources telling you?

JENNIFER HANSLER, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT PRODUCER: Well, Becky, at this point we only know that this is expected to be a massive swap on a large

scale for Evan and Paul. And now of course, as you mentioned, this has been months, if not years in the making.

In the case of Paul Whelan, we know the U.S. has been working to get him home ever since he was not included in the deals that brought home Trevor

Reed in April 2022 and Brittney Griner in December 2022.

Our past reporting indicated that the U.S. was scouring the globe to look for people who Russia might be willing to trade. That could include the

Russian assassin, Vadim Krasikov, who is being held in Germany. We know this is someone that the Russians have repeatedly put on the table.

The U.S. has been hesitant to offer him as -- given the fact that they do not actually have the ability to offer him. So this is a very complicated

diplomatic, behind-the-scenes negotiation that has been going on for months and months here, Becky.

ANDERSON: While you are talking, we have got an image up of Ankara in Turkiye, looking at the tarmac there.

What do we know about schedule on this, if anything, and where these Americans will be flown from and to?

HANSLER: Well, Becky, we don't know for sure if that's what's happening but we are expecting to see these dramatic images come out of that tarmac

in Ankara, if this is in fact the plane that is carrying out this very complicated prisoner swap.

In the past, when Brittney Griner and Trevor Reed were released, they would go to a third country. The U.S. would fly into that third country.

The Russian would fly in there and we would see almost this "Bridge of Spies" moment, where the two sides are crossing the tarmac and the

Americans are returned to the U.S. side and the Russians are returned to the Russian side.

So we do expect to see similar images in this case of this swap. Now from there we expect Paul and Evan to fly back to the United States to be

reunited with their loved ones, who have -- they have been waiting more than a year in Evan's case and more than 5.5 years in Paul's case.

In terms of timing, we don't know exactly when they might be wheels down here in the United States. But we will be watching to see from there

whether they will go on to undertake what is called PISA, which is a program for them to reintegrate into their lives after being detained,

after being held in solitary confinement for months and months.

So we will be watching very closely to see how these images play out. But if nothing else, Becky, this is a very historic day.

ANDERSON: Yes, absolutely. And I'm sure our viewers will forgive us what is relatively scant detail at this point. This is being shrouded in

secrecy. We've heard nothing for example, from Russia on this, this prisoner swap shrouded in secrecy until this point.

And as we said, until we see those Americans released and into U.S. custody, the details will continue to be scant.

What we do know, Jennifer, at this stage is that Turkiye has confirmed that it did play a mediator role in this prisoner swap, involving people from,

as we understand it, seven countries, correct?

HANSLER: Yes, we expect there to be a lot of people involved from various countries. As I mentioned, they have been looking for spies to be able to

swap. We know in the Russian system, they often look for parity.

And because they have accused Evan and Paul of being spies -- these, of course, are claims that the U.S. and Paul and Evan have fiercely denied.

[10:35:02]

But the Russians were looking for someone of similar weight and the U.S. just didn't have these kinds of people in their custody. So they were

scouring the globe, going to allies and partners who had convicted Russian spies in their custody, seeing if they might be able to include them in any

sort of trade.

And it seems that they have worked, given we are seeing this large scale swap going on.

ANDERSON: Jennifer, I'm going to let you go work your sources, ensure that we are absolutely bang up-to-date on the reporting on what is or certainly

is building to be an historic event at this point. Jennifer, thank you.

Matthew Chance with me here in the studio. Matthew, of course, longtime bureau -- Moscow bureau chief, working your sources on the Russian side on

this.

Firstly, what are -- what's the Kremlin saying?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you're right. I am working my sources on this. And I'm not getting much response. So I've

got a whole bunch of text messages here that I've written to various Russian officials.

And there's absolutely nothing coming back in the other direction. So unusually, perhaps; the Russians are maintaining the line on this. They're

not briefing behind the scenes or I'm not aware of it.

And on the other hand, here there are others. That are the Turks, the United States are to some extent as well. Now I don't know what that really

says, except that this is a deal that is being taken extremely seriously, of course, everywhere, but in Russia as well.

It's been the culmination of months if not years of very painful negotiations between Washington and Moscow. And I think that talks to some

of the timing as well. The fact that there's a U.S. presidency -- a presidential election on horizon. A new president is going to be in place

in the White House.

Neither the White House nor the Kremlin wanted to have to rehash this deal. And they have seem to have both taken this chance to get their nationals

back.

ANDERSON: It is fascinating when you work your sources and find out that, behind the scenes, there are a number of different countries involved in

this.

We've seen some of the Gulf countries, for example, involved in the mediation of Russian and Ukrainian prisoners. We've seen the Qataris

involved in the mediating the exchange of Iranian prisoners for those held in Iran. I know that there is some Middle Eastern involvement in this as

well.

So we -- whilst we await further detail, let's just talk about who the Americans are, who we expect to be swapped and who they may be swapped for,

Matthew.

CHANCE: Well, look, first of all, we don't, we don't know for sure. So we're talking about people who the Russians have heard the Americans want

back. And obviously the top of that list is Evan Gershkovich and Paul Whelan. These are extremely high-profile people and it does seem that they

are very much part of this swap.

But there are others, too. And a woman called Alsu Kurmasheva, who was arrested not long ago, actually. She's a journalist, she's a U.S.-Russian

citizen. She worked for Radio Free Europe, I think, an organization like that and was -- and was prosecuted for her work as well.

It's possible she could be a part of this swap as well. And there are several others. There are -- I think it's quite interesting. There seem to

be a lot of people in Russian custody who are prominent Russian human rights activists and politicians.

Vladimir Kara-Murza is probably one of the most outspoken critics, who is surviving of the Kremlin in Russia right now. He's been behind bars for

some time. He could well be -- I think there are a lot of hopes for this -- he could well be in this, in this mix as well.

But there will be lots of people left behind. I mean, there's a member of the U.S. Army. Gordon Black is his name. He was arrested recently for

beating his girlfriend and stealing money, convicted for that. It doesn't look like he's going to be coming out as part of this deal.

Marc Fogel is my old neighbor, actually, in Moscow, where he lived in the same compound as I did for many years. He was caught bringing cannabis into

the country and he's serving a prison sentence of 14 years. He's probably not coming back.

But I think what's really interesting is that all these painful negotiations, it's an international effort. The Russians wanted back Vadim

Krasikov, this German. But there's also been internal stuff, blockages, that have prevented this deal going ahead.

Alexei Navalny, we shouldn't forget, he was meant to be part of this broad prisoner swap but he died in prison back earlier this year. And I think

there's a sense in which that really set back this deal, getting over the line.

The Germans wanted Navalny for Krasikov. Navalny was essentially taken off the table as a bargaining chip in a very ruthless and cynical way.

[10:40:03]

And that put the deal back.

ANDERSON: Why now, just briefly, to your mind?

Because again, we don't know, I don't think, unless you tell me differently, why this deal has come to fruition as it were to date, if

indeed that is what we are watching here.

But what's your sense?

I mean, this has been -- we know these negotiations are going on in the background for a very long time. We've seen other swaps.

Why this very high profile and possibly historic in terms of size today?

CHANCE: Well, I think it's partly because of the complex nature of that negotiation, the internal struggles with Navalny, the fact that it's

multinational, that's one aspect of it.

But the other one is the issue of political timing., I mean, where we've got a U.S. presidential election on the horizon. There is going to be a

change of U.S. president.

And these negotiations between the security services are very fragile. They're very delicate. A new president in the U.S. may not, may not see it

in the same way.

I mean, who knows?

And neither the White House nor the Kremlin wanted to risk missing this historic opportunity, I sense.

ANDERSON: Good to have you.

Always a pleasure. And your insight invaluable, of course, on a day like today. Not every day when we do stories with you, sir.

(LAUGHTER)

ANDERSON: It's good to have you.

Let's bring in to this conversation CNN global affairs analyst Kimberly Dozier.

And you'll have heard what Matthew was just surmising about the timing of what looks like an historic prisoner swap between the U.S., Russia and

other countries today. This comes after months of quite complicated negotiations, of course, primarily between Moscow and Washington.

What's your sense of why now?

KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, just to pick up on what Matthew was saying, I can't help but think about the U.S. presidential

campaign. Now, Donald Trump had said that he was going to be the one to bring Evan Gershkovich and Paul Whelan and others home.

And it's fascinating that Moscow either isn't so convinced he'll win or decided not to wait until a possible Trump victory to do this.

And I started thinking about, OK, how is Trump going to attack this later, once the exchange is done?

If the U.S. had been letting go someone from its prison, a spy and assassin, as reportedly will be let go from a German prison for this swap,

to go back to Russia, well, that's going to be harder for the former president to attack.

And it could be that the German government said to Moscow, we'll do this for the Biden administration. We're not going to (INAUDIBLE).

ANDERSON: I'm sorry. I think we had a technical glitch. Carry on, carry on.

DOZIER: The other thing I was thinking, though, was, OK; that's the crass political side of this. And I'm predicting how both sides of the campaign,

the Biden-Harris team will be celebrating this, the Trump team will find ways to attack it.

But when you look at the guy in charge of the negotiating team, the hostage envoy, Roger Carstens and his team, Roger was put in charge of this

portfolio under Mike Pompeo's State Department, under the Trump administration.

He stayed in the job because he's a U.S. Army Green Beret. He is apolitical. He's been all about this job. And he and his team, I know Roger

has a big family. He and his team have lived this, not for months, for years of being away from their own families to try to get these

incarcerated -- unfairly incarcerated Americans back home.

And Roger being a Green Beret, I can't help but think about the Green Berets' motto is "De Oppresso Liber."

Forgive me if I butchered the Latin there. But that means "Free the Oppressed" and that's happening today.

ANDERSON: Yes, this is great detail, Kim. It's super having you on.

Let me just get our viewers bang up-to-date on the reporting that we have here. Turkiye -- and you are looking at images of the tarmac there in

Ankara in Turkiye, in the capital, Turkiye says that an historic exchange has now happened.

It involved 26 people and seven countries. The Turkish presidency reporting an historic exchange involved 26 people in seven countries. The 26 people

included 24 adults and two children, according to a Turkish security source.

Among the individuals transported to Turkiye, by a total of seven planes, two from the U.S. and one each from Germany, Poland, Slovenia, Norway and

Russia.

[10:45:04]

Ten people, including two children, were transferred to the Russia side, 13 to Germany and three to the U.S., according to the Turkish presidency. So

that is the detail as we understand it.

Kim, what do you make of that?

DOZIER: Well, that sounds like we got back Evan Gershkovich, Paul Whelan and also the Radio Free Europe reporter who's a Russian-American dual

national. That's who had been reported as the hoped-for transfers in this exchange.

Now Alsu had been just doing her job, reporting on Radio Free Europe but reporting the kind of news that is illegal to say out loud in Russia,

calling it like the "illegal Russian invasion of Ukraine."

And she went home to visit a sick relative and was arrested and her passports confiscated.

Paul Whelan has been incarcerated for much longer. The former U.S. Marine held something like five years. His brother and sister have been keeping a

network of reporters informed on every step of his case.

And I know that in addition to his brother and sister up in Canada who are eager for him to come back, I think there's at least one dog at home, that

is Paul's dog, that has been waiting. So just lots and lots of good news.

And of course, there are a lot of people in "The Wall Street Journal" newsroom and other newsrooms who shaved their heads in solidarity with

Evan, who got his head shaved.

What was Evan doing?

He had gone to a Russian industrial military town and, of course, at the time, we were all trying to figure out, what is the capacity of the Russian

military complex to ramp up, to keep up with what Europe was supplying to Ukraine?

The question was, can Russia supply its own troops in this back-and-forth war?

And Russia -- and Evan was asking the kind of questions any one of us presumably would have been asking in that town when he was arrested for

doing his job.

ANDERSON: Good to have you.

We continue to keep our eyes keenly on the tarmac there in Ankara, in Turkiye, as we await more detail. And some images, quite frankly, of those

who have today been exchanged in what is an historic prisoner swap between the U.S., Russia and other countries. We will be back after this short

break. Stay with us.

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ANDERSON: Well, an update on our breaking news and Turkiye has just confirmed that Evan Gershkovich and Paul Whelan, both U.S. citizens, were

part of what is an historic prisoner exchange completed today.

That is a story that we have been covering for you now for some hours. Beginning now to get the detail on this, the 26 people included, 24 adults

and two children, according to a Turkish security source.

Among the individuals transported to Turkiye by total of seven planes: two from the U.S., Evan Gershkovich and Paul Whelan, of course; two from the

U.S., one each from Germany, Poland, Slovenia, Norway and Russia.

Ten people, including two kids, were transferred to the Russian side, 13 to Germany and three to the U.S. according to the Turkish presidency. The

details are just coming in here. Let's get some diplomatic expertise now.

Nigel Gould-Davies is a Senior Fellow for Russia and Eurasia at the International Institute for Strategic Studies. He's joining us now from

London.

Detail coming in; it sounds as if this is a completed exchange.

Tell us, what's your initial reaction to the news that we are just reporting?

NIGEL GOULD-DAVIES, SENIOR FELLOW FOR RUSSIA AND EURASIA, INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR STRATEGIC STUDIES: It's very striking and very significant.

It's a complex exchange. I think it's important to be precise about the words we use here, described as a prisoner exchange and loosely that's

right.

But in fact, it's Russian intelligence operatives and spies, who have been rightfully detained, being returned to Russia. And in the case of those

going the other direction, they are people who have committed no crime, other than to speak and write freely.

And they are not all non-Russian citizens returned to their own lands. There are plenty of Russian dissidents who are, in effect, being expelled

from their country. So I think it's important to frame it like that.

But this is unprecedented. As you say, the details are coming in; the numbers I've seen from Russian sources suggest that there are more people

traveling out of Russia now, in this exchange, than into Russia.

And that's interesting because the Russians themselves normally strict that these, in terms of numbers, these have to be parity, equal numbers or on

either side.

So it may well be that, in some crude sense, it's the West that has got the better part of the deal. And that raises the question, of course, why Putin

has agreed to it now.

ANDERSON: And you will have been considering that question.

What is your conclusion at this point?

GOULD-DAVIES: I think it's easy at this stage to rule out hypotheses rather than to point clearly in a -- in a particular direction of

causation.

I doubt that it has very much to do with the recent developments in American politics and the renewed speculation about who might be president

next. These deals typically take a long time to get through the works, especially one of this complexity.

So it's not something that Putin has suddenly, as it were, to respond to. It's a slower burn than that. It might in some, I would have to say,

misleading way, be an attempt to convey to the West that Russia is a country that, for all of the differences with the West, can be dealt with

and with whom agreements can be reached.

I would say that's inherently deceptive. I don't think Putin fundamentally is interested, for example, in a negotiated end to the war.

But even that point about agreeing an exchange and that being an achievement, think back to what happened in 2018, when Sergei Skripal, who

had been the subject of a previous exchange of this kind, was the victim --

(CROSSTALK)

ANDERSON: All right, all right.

GOULD-DAVIES: -- of a deadly attack.

It didn't kill him. It killed someone else. So there will be this worry that those who are being returned or sent to Western countries are

potentially unsafe. The Kremlin again changed its mind and decides that it wants to eliminate that. It's them, it's done that before. So I think we

shouldn't relax too much at this (INAUDIBLE).

ANDERSON: It's good to have you on.

[10:55:00]

We've got to take a very short break at this point, continue to chase our sources and continue to keep our viewers bang up to date on what is going

on.

The other major news happening this hour, the high, the Middle East on high alert as Israel claims responsibility for another high profile killing in

the region. That is also coming up here on CNN.

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ANDERSON: Well, just before we finish out this hour, we do continue to follow the major prisoner exchange happening right now between Russia and

the West.

I do though want to update you on the Middle East, really in the aftershocks, the three targeted killings. The IDF released this video on

Thursday saying it shows the moment a fatal strike on Hamas' military chief, Mohammed Deif in Gaza, in mid-July.

At least 90 Palestinians were also killed in that attack. He is understood to be one of the masterminds of the October 7th attacks.

A statement comes the same day that thousands turned out for a memorial service in Iran for Hamas' slain political leader, Ismail Haniyeh.

News continues on CNN. That's it for CONNECT THE WORLD, though. I'm Becky Anderson in London. Stay with us.

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